Blades and the search for "game improvement"

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,991 ✭✭
    duffer987 wrote:


    TC & BH - I don't disagree with either of you that putting and chipping can help someone for particular rounds or particular stretches of play, but you don't make a fundamental and long-lasting improvement in your game/index (such as going from 14 to 6) without improving your ballstriking and increasing your GIR.

    I'll have to google/search here, but there is absolutely a direct correlation between the two.






    I dont disagree... it takes it all ... And i know im an odd duck... I hated to post that in a way because there are alot of delusional folks out there that dont hit it as good as they think they do . But the odd ball who was born being able to hit the ball but struggles getting it in the hole is out there...



    Anecdotal example i thought of just now.... our home club punches the greens once a year with what looks like samurai swords.... huge holes ..then truck loads of sand ... During the 1st week of this we will play our skins game and just play that a GIR is automatic 2 putt. 4 rounds that week this year and i didnt shoot above 72 once. why ? no 3 putts!! lol and 2 par 5s were automatic birdies as i could hit them both with 5-6 irons.. Glaring example of why i hang out at a 2 handicap vs +2....
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
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    Ping G410 21 ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  3-PW   Modus 130X 
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    ***F the **** ....50 degree GW and Spider X can kiss my **** ****
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,563 ✭✭
    There are always those guys with a particularly good or bad short game, which can make or break a handicap. Generally speaking these guys are outliers though. Most players have a more proportional relationship between handicap and short game ability, and same goes for ball striking ability vs. handicap. We get all hung up here discussing special case situations where some mid capper says they play better with blades but at least in my view these guys are special cases, not normal. I also wonder how many of these guys truly play better with small clubs vs. think they play better with these clubs. The mind is a powerful influence and some people that hate large offset clubs just can't bring themselves to even give them a fair chance. I know because I used to be that guy, but thankfully I got over it. Regardless, it's just a game so just play what you want and don't worry about justifying based on logic.
    Ping G400 driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
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    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
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    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,991 ✭✭
    edited Sep 18, 2018 #154
    Nessism wrote:


    There are always those guys with a particularly good or bad short game, which can make or break a handicap. Generally speaking these guys are outliers though. Most players have a more proportional relationship between handicap and short game ability, and same goes for ball striking ability vs. handicap. We get all hung up here discussing special case situations where some mid capper says they play better with blades but at least in my view these guys are special cases, not normal. I also wonder how many of these guys truly play better with small clubs vs. think they play better with these clubs. The mind is a powerful influence and some people that hate large offset clubs just can't bring themselves to even give them a fair chance. I know because I used to be that guy, but thankfully I got over it. Regardless, it's just a game so just play what you want and don't worry about justifying based on logic.




    well said..



    as ive also seen and still play with that 12 or so cap who is the best putter i know ... pitch and putt hes a scratch player... put him in a bunker and hes lost ...but from the tee he has zero direction or distance.. He and I will wear out anyone playing 2 man scramble .lol
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21 ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  3-PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot

    ***F the **** ....50 degree GW and Spider X can kiss my **** ****
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,410 ✭✭

    duffer987 wrote:


    TC & BH - I don't disagree with either of you that putting and chipping can help someone for particular rounds or particular stretches of play, but you don't make a fundamental and long-lasting improvement in your game/index (such as going from 14 to 6) without improving your ballstriking and increasing your GIR.

    I'll have to google/search here, but there is absolutely a direct correlation between the two.






    I dont disagree... it takes it all ... And i know im an odd duck... I hated to post that in a way because there are alot of delusional folks out there that dont hit it as good as they think they do . But the odd ball who was born being able to hit the ball but struggles getting it in the hole is out there...



    Anecdotal example i thought of just now.... our home club punches the greens once a year with what looks like samurai swords.... huge holes ..then truck loads of sand ... During the 1st week of this we will play our skins game and just play that a GIR is automatic 2 putt. 4 rounds that week this year and i didnt shoot above 72 once. why ? no 3 putts!! lol and 2 par 5s were automatic birdies as i could hit them both with 5-6 irons.. Glaring example of why i hang out at a 2 handicap vs +2....






    BH, one of my friends is a guy who might be your polar opposite. He's not a good ballstriker, struggles with distance, and fights a fade/slice off the tee, but his putting and short game are amazing. I've not tracked it, and I know he doesn't, but watching him play several times a week for years, I'd be surprised if he averages more than 5 or 6 GIR as an 8-10 index. FWIW, when I met him, he was playing G2's, IIRC, and now plays G20's.



    The day he hit a bunch of GIR, he shot 69 (31/38), taking a double on a 340 yd par 4 (#14) after hitting a tree off the tee, some 50 yds forward of the tee box, up the left side.



    As Nessism says, he's an outlier, but he exists. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Cobra King LTD, ProtoPype 80x or RIP 80x, 43.5" -or- SuperDeep 9.5*, ProtoPype 80x or NV85x, 43.5"
    3w: Cobra King LTD, Motore F1 85 X, 42.5"
    2h:  TM Stage 2 Tour, Nv105 stiff -or- 1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind, Dynamic S
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS
    Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34.5", PP58 midsize grip
    (Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35" -or- Mizuno TPM-2, 35" as backups)
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Snell MTB Black... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time
    Shoes by True Linkswear
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    Nessism wrote:


    There are always those guys with a particularly good or bad short game, which can make or break a handicap. Generally speaking these guys are outliers though. Most players have a more proportional relationship between handicap and short game ability, and same goes for ball striking ability vs. handicap. We get all hung up here discussing special case situations where some mid capper says they play better with blades but at least in my view these guys are special cases, not normal. I also wonder how many of these guys truly play better with small clubs vs. think they play better with these clubs. The mind is a powerful influence and some people that hate large offset clubs just can't bring themselves to even give them a fair chance. I know because I used to be that guy, but thankfully I got over it. Regardless, it's just a game so just play what you want and don't worry about justifying based on logic.




    Those special cases, if they are going to cause a 10+ stroke disparity between ball striking ability and actual scoring, pretty much have to be something like the yips. Mere lack of skill just won't add up to that many strokes.



    I used to play with a guy who makes as solid, consistent contact and has as good control over distance and direction of his irons and hybrids as you'd ever want to see. As he's gotten older he has developed putting "issues" that leave him as helpless as a 20+ handicapper once he's on the greens. The disparity is immediately noticeable as soon as you play even a few holes with him.



    Years ago, before the putting problems, he played to a +1 or +2 handicap at his best. Now with the truly horrific putting he plays to a 2.something index. That's a pretty extreme case and it is costing him about three strokes on his index. I just can't imagine what it would take to turn that guy into a 8, 10, 12 handicap while still striping the ball from tee to green.



    There's a few million golfers in the world so if you look long enough you can find any sort of outlier we could imagine. But on forums like this one seems like every third or fourth guy who posts feels he is a 1-in-a-million special case in some way or another. In my experience playing with a wide range of golfers, most of the 20 handicaps play about like 20's in every part of their game and most of the 5 handicaps play like 5's, more or less, in every part of their game. I just haven't met many unicorns in the real world, only online.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,410 ✭✭
    edited Sep 18, 2018 #157


    There's a few million golfers in the world so if you look long enough you can find any sort of outlier we could imagine. But on forums like this one seems like every third or fourth guy who posts feels he is a 1-in-a-million special case in some way or another. In my experience playing with a wide range of golfers, most of the 20 handicaps play about like 20's in every part of their game and most of the 5 handicaps play like 5's, more or less, in every part of their game. I just haven't met many unicorns in the real world, only online.






    Maybe it's because these sort of folks aren't as rare as you believe? <shrug>

    (no snark intended)



    I know a guy, part of our extended group on weekends, who has problems putting. He will frequently miss putts inside 6 feet, and even 3 feet, because he pulls and pushes his putts quite a bit.
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Cobra King LTD, ProtoPype 80x or RIP 80x, 43.5" -or- SuperDeep 9.5*, ProtoPype 80x or NV85x, 43.5"
    3w: Cobra King LTD, Motore F1 85 X, 42.5"
    2h:  TM Stage 2 Tour, Nv105 stiff -or- 1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind, Dynamic S
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS
    Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34.5", PP58 midsize grip
    (Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35" -or- Mizuno TPM-2, 35" as backups)
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Snell MTB Black... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time
    Shoes by True Linkswear
  • Aviador NavalAviador Naval equus mortuus non caedis Members Posts: 1,146 ✭✭
    Nessism wrote:


    There are always those guys with a particularly good or bad short game, which can make or break a handicap. Generally speaking these guys are outliers though. Most players have a more proportional relationship between handicap and short game ability, and same goes for ball striking ability vs. handicap. We get all hung up here discussing special case situations where some mid capper says they play better with blades but at least in my view these guys are special cases, not normal. I also wonder how many of these guys truly play better with small clubs vs. think they play better with these clubs. The mind is a powerful influence and some people that hate large offset clubs just can't bring themselves to even give them a fair chance. I know because I used to be that guy, but thankfully I got over it. Regardless, it's just a game so just play what you want and don't worry about justifying based on logic.




    Agree. Additionally, I've played with a handful of guys that don't score to their potential (in some cases by a half dozen or so strokes) due to a combination of delusional distance fantasies and poor course management. They hear the TV announcer say that Rory pulled a 7i from 195yds and so they do as well. Then they are shocked when their well struck ball ends up 25-30 yds short.



    They only equipment related immediate handicap reduction I've ever enjoyed was the purchase of a laser rangefinder, coupled with spending the time during multi-ball twilight rounds to truly know my carry distances, coupled with early in every round pulling the club that if struck perfectly will leave my ball just short of the back fringe.
    917 D2 9.5
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    NRJyzr wrote:



    There's a few million golfers in the world so if you look long enough you can find any sort of outlier we could imagine. But on forums like this one seems like every third or fourth guy who posts feels he is a 1-in-a-million special case in some way or another. In my experience playing with a wide range of golfers, most of the 20 handicaps play about like 20's in every part of their game and most of the 5 handicaps play like 5's, more or less, in every part of their game. I just haven't met many unicorns in the real world, only online.






    Maybe it's because these sort of folks aren't as rare as you believe? <shrug>

    (no snark intended)



    I know a guy, part of our extended group on weekends, who has problems putting. He will frequently miss putts inside 6 feet, and even 3 feet, because he pulls and pushes his putts quite a bit.




    So how many strokes does he lose with those missed putts, relative to other players with his overall skill level? Just hard to imagine that happening 6, 8, 10 times a round on putts that a player of his quality would normally make almost every time.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • TexasCarlosTexasCarlos Unregistered Posts: 861 ✭✭
    duffer987 wrote:


    TC & BH - I don't disagree with either of you that putting and chipping can help someone for particular rounds or particular stretches of play, but you don't make a fundamental and long-lasting improvement in your game/index (such as going from 14 to 6) without improving your ballstriking and increasing your GIR.



    I'll have to google/search here, but there is absolutely a direct correlation between the two.




    I agree with you as well, gotta be well rounded no matter what to get a single digit cap. Lol I forgot this was a blade thread hahaha.
    G400 LST
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  • duffer987duffer987 Grey doesn't equal Ignore Canadian in CaliforniaMembers Posts: 9,218 ✭✭

    duffer987 wrote:


    TC & BH - I don't disagree with either of you that putting and chipping can help someone for particular rounds or particular stretches of play, but you don't make a fundamental and long-lasting improvement in your game/index (such as going from 14 to 6) without improving your ballstriking and increasing your GIR.



    I'll have to google/search here, but there is absolutely a direct correlation between the two.




    I agree with you as well, gotta be well rounded no matter what to get a single digit cap. Lol I forgot this was a blade thread hahaha.


    Ha! I think once you hit the 5th page of a thread, strict adherence to the OP can get a bit ropey image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,410 ✭✭

    NRJyzr wrote:



    There's a few million golfers in the world so if you look long enough you can find any sort of outlier we could imagine. But on forums like this one seems like every third or fourth guy who posts feels he is a 1-in-a-million special case in some way or another. In my experience playing with a wide range of golfers, most of the 20 handicaps play about like 20's in every part of their game and most of the 5 handicaps play like 5's, more or less, in every part of their game. I just haven't met many unicorns in the real world, only online.






    Maybe it's because these sort of folks aren't as rare as you believe? <shrug>

    (no snark intended)



    I know a guy, part of our extended group on weekends, who has problems putting. He will frequently miss putts inside 6 feet, and even 3 feet, because he pulls and pushes his putts quite a bit.




    So how many strokes does he lose with those missed putts, relative to other players with his overall skill level? Just hard to imagine that happening 6, 8, 10 times a round on putts that a player of his quality would normally make almost every time.






    It's only around two per round, on average. Admittedly, he's not single digit, either, being around a 15 hdcp senior player. I've seen others like him, who were more accomplished, in occasional rounds, but I see and play golf with this gent moderately often, so he gets the mention. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Cobra King LTD, ProtoPype 80x or RIP 80x, 43.5" -or- SuperDeep 9.5*, ProtoPype 80x or NV85x, 43.5"
    3w: Cobra King LTD, Motore F1 85 X, 42.5"
    2h:  TM Stage 2 Tour, Nv105 stiff -or- 1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind, Dynamic S
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS
    Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34.5", PP58 midsize grip
    (Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35" -or- Mizuno TPM-2, 35" as backups)
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Snell MTB Black... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time
    Shoes by True Linkswear
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,338 ✭✭
    There really is no barrier for a 90's shooter to break 90 and test 85 via short game other than they don't think working on it would accomplish it. There's no barrier for a 10 cap to have sub 5 to scratch stats other than them not believing it's worth the effort. Being solid from 100 yards in is probably the most neglected aspect of the game and count me as one that neglected it for decades. GIR's rule mindset but those are a function of FIR and hitting right quadrant of fairway. Tee shot sets tone of play so focus is tee out, but nailing skills green back is an effective strategy to lower scores and cap.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    NRJyzr wrote:


    NRJyzr wrote:



    There's a few million golfers in the world so if you look long enough you can find any sort of outlier we could imagine. But on forums like this one seems like every third or fourth guy who posts feels he is a 1-in-a-million special case in some way or another. In my experience playing with a wide range of golfers, most of the 20 handicaps play about like 20's in every part of their game and most of the 5 handicaps play like 5's, more or less, in every part of their game. I just haven't met many unicorns in the real world, only online.






    Maybe it's because these sort of folks aren't as rare as you believe? <shrug>

    (no snark intended)



    I know a guy, part of our extended group on weekends, who has problems putting. He will frequently miss putts inside 6 feet, and even 3 feet, because he pulls and pushes his putts quite a bit.




    So how many strokes does he lose with those missed putts, relative to other players with his overall skill level? Just hard to imagine that happening 6, 8, 10 times a round on putts that a player of his quality would normally make almost every time.






    It's only around two per round, on average. Admittedly, he's not single digit, either, being around a 15 hdcp senior player. I've seen others like him, who were more accomplished, in occasional rounds, but I see and play golf with this gent moderately often, so he gets the mention. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    I play with a lot of guys in their 60's and 70's and the really sad cases are the guys who were 2, 3, 4 handicappers all their life, they have stayed healthy and flexible and still hit beautiful shot after beautiful shot but they get the out-and-out putting yips. There's one guy at my club who is a wonderful player tee to green but if he happens to have the putter go off in his hands on a 2-footer the first couple holes there is almost no limit to how bad it will get by the end of 18. The rest of us literally look the other way when he's white-knuckling a tap-in because it's too painful to watch. One time I saw his pick up two different holes in the same round after hitting a GIR and then missing four putts in a row.



    I love playing golf but if I ever found myself unable to even a finish a hole after hitting my approach shot 10 feet from the cup, I'd probably quit.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,410 ✭✭
    edited Sep 18, 2018 #165


    I love playing golf but if I ever found myself unable to even a finish a hole after hitting my approach shot 10 feet from the cup, I'd probably quit.






    Ever see the Johnny Miller / Jack Nicklaus match on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf? I had to quit watching.



    I'd always wondered why Miller didn't play the Senior Tour, but after seeing that, it was obvious.



    In an effort to make a mildly thread-topical comment.... did you know the Moment of Inertia of the Ping ISI is 2337, while that of the MacGregor Winged MT blade is 2345? Or that the FG Tour 100 blade has an MOI higher than that of the FG Tour v6? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Cobra King LTD, ProtoPype 80x or RIP 80x, 43.5" -or- SuperDeep 9.5*, ProtoPype 80x or NV85x, 43.5"
    3w: Cobra King LTD, Motore F1 85 X, 42.5"
    2h:  TM Stage 2 Tour, Nv105 stiff -or- 1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind, Dynamic S
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS
    Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34.5", PP58 midsize grip
    (Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35" -or- Mizuno TPM-2, 35" as backups)
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Snell MTB Black... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time
    Shoes by True Linkswear
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    I experimented around with modern "players irons" and older (pre-1990's) clubs from time to time while using Ping G20/G30/G irons for everyday play. For my own personal game I do benefit somewhat from high MOI, toe weights, hot faces and all that jazz. But the single most important innovation that benefits me in post-1990 shovels is a wide, cambered sole with a blunt leading edge.



    I recently acquired some Ping Eye2 irons (the original weak lofts, not the +) and honestly I find them totally playable. Not having strong lofts and hot faces they are a bit shorter than my modern Ping G but I can hit wonderful high, straight shots throughout the set...



    ...as long as I don't catch it a groove or two too high on the face from a tight lie. The lack of forgiveness from ever-so-slightly fat shots is just incredible. I've never been much of a slicer or hooker of the ball but my low-point control comes and goes from day to day and swing to swing. Even semi-modern irons with cavity backs from a couple decades ago tended to have sharp leading edges and squarish, no-bounce, narrow soles. I sometimes wonder if it's just me who finds that the most important element of "forgiveness".



    And don't get me started on the narrow soles in even the stupid pitching wedge!
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Aviador NavalAviador Naval equus mortuus non caedis Members Posts: 1,146 ✭✭
    NRJyzr wrote:


    In an effort to make a mildly thread-topical comment.... did you know the Moment of Inertia of the Ping ISI is 2337, while that of the MacGregor Winged MT blade is 2345? Or that the FG Tour 100 blade has an MOI higher than that of the FG Tour v6? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    This is GolfWrx. Facts are not allowed to get in the way of either anecdotal evidence or deeply held conviction.
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    Original Ti Launcher 3w-13
    TS2 18 deg
    818 H1
    716 T-MB 5i
    919 Tour 6-P
    50-12, 54F, 58D
    Old Mn-Bn Anser
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USAMembers Posts: 6,410 ✭✭


    I experimented around with modern "players irons" and older (pre-1990's) clubs from time to time while using Ping G20/G30/G irons for everyday play. For my own personal game I do benefit somewhat from high MOI, toe weights, hot faces and all that jazz. But the single most important innovation that benefits me in post-1990 shovels is a wide, cambered sole with a blunt leading edge.



    I recently acquired some Ping Eye2 irons (the original weak lofts, not the +) and honestly I find them totally playable. Not having strong lofts and hot faces they are a bit shorter than my modern Ping G but I can hit wonderful high, straight shots throughout the set...



    ...as long as I don't catch it a groove or two too high on the face from a tight lie. The lack of forgiveness from ever-so-slightly fat shots is just incredible. I've never been much of a slicer or hooker of the ball but my low-point control comes and goes from day to day and swing to swing. Even semi-modern irons with cavity backs from a couple decades ago tended to have sharp leading edges and squarish, no-bounce, narrow soles. I sometimes wonder if it's just me who finds that the most important element of "forgiveness".



    And don't get me started on the narrow soles in even the stupid pitching wedge!






    It's somewhat ironic you have success with the Eye2. They lack the bounce of later Ping irons, and in fact, have negative bounce in the irons longer than the 5i; the bounce is zero at the 5i.



    It's one of the things that's bugged me about them, and part of why I don't try to play them more often.
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Cobra King LTD, ProtoPype 80x or RIP 80x, 43.5" -or- SuperDeep 9.5*, ProtoPype 80x or NV85x, 43.5"
    3w: Cobra King LTD, Motore F1 85 X, 42.5"
    2h:  TM Stage 2 Tour, Nv105 stiff -or- 1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind, Dynamic S
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS
    Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34.5", PP58 midsize grip
    (Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35" -or- Mizuno TPM-2, 35" as backups)
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Snell MTB Black... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time
    Shoes by True Linkswear
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    edited Sep 18, 2018 #169
    NRJyzr wrote:



    I experimented around with modern "players irons" and older (pre-1990's) clubs from time to time while using Ping G20/G30/G irons for everyday play. For my own personal game I do benefit somewhat from high MOI, toe weights, hot faces and all that jazz. But the single most important innovation that benefits me in post-1990 shovels is a wide, cambered sole with a blunt leading edge.



    I recently acquired some Ping Eye2 irons (the original weak lofts, not the +) and honestly I find them totally playable. Not having strong lofts and hot faces they are a bit shorter than my modern Ping G but I can hit wonderful high, straight shots throughout the set...



    ...as long as I don't catch it a groove or two too high on the face from a tight lie. The lack of forgiveness from ever-so-slightly fat shots is just incredible. I've never been much of a slicer or hooker of the ball but my low-point control comes and goes from day to day and swing to swing. Even semi-modern irons with cavity backs from a couple decades ago tended to have sharp leading edges and squarish, no-bounce, narrow soles. I sometimes wonder if it's just me who finds that the most important element of "forgiveness".



    And don't get me started on the narrow soles in even the stupid pitching wedge!






    It's somewhat ironic you have success with the Eye2. They lack the bounce of later Ping irons, and in fact, have negative bounce in the irons longer than the 5i; the bounce is zero at the 5i.



    It's one of the things that's bugged me about them, and part of why I don't try to play them more often.




    No, I wasn't clear. I have success with them on the 80% of shots where I shallow out my swing and control the low point.



    But the other 20% are complete duffs. There are a half a dozen shots per round with the Eye2's that cost me basically a full stroke on a swing that my regular modern G irons would let me catch a little fat and come up 5-10 yards short of the green.



    My home course has one Par 5 with a pond in front of the green and if you aren't able to get the second shot up close to the pond you end up with a 8-iron or 7-iron off a downhill tight lie. Fortunately I have not faced that shot yet with the Eye2's but if I do I'm pretty sure I'll chip it down to the edge of the pond and hit a wedge off a flat lie. I do not think I am mentally strong enough to pick it clean with the Eye2 7-iron off that downslope, facing the water hazard!
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • boggymanboggyman Members Posts: 2,622 ✭✭


    MtlJeff wrote:


    Clubs are both overrated and underrated.



    They are not significant enough that being a good player is dependent on the clubs you play. I'd venture a guess that clubs you play could affect your handicap by at most 2 shots. At MOST



    that being said if it affects your index even by .3, well I'd rather be lower than higher
    at the end of the day its only a guess. There is no way to say how a golfer on any given day would play a round any better or worse with different golf clubs than what he or she played the round with. And that goes for both sides of the argument.




    I have owned a set of true blades, with matching persimmons. Built in 1952. My scores for nine holes were approximately 10 strokes worse with this clubs than the Ping G20’s I was using at the time. At least a stroke per hole.



    So don’t be daft. The clubs matter.



    I could play clubs like that every round for a year and never break 90 from the ladies tees.


    If one that plays regularly any at all and can’t break 90 from the red tees I don’t see what difference ANY club, especially irons would make.
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    boggyman wrote:



    MtlJeff wrote:


    Clubs are both overrated and underrated.



    They are not significant enough that being a good player is dependent on the clubs you play. I'd venture a guess that clubs you play could affect your handicap by at most 2 shots. At MOST



    that being said if it affects your index even by .3, well I'd rather be lower than higher
    at the end of the day its only a guess. There is no way to say how a golfer on any given day would play a round any better or worse with different golf clubs than what he or she played the round with. And that goes for both sides of the argument.




    I have owned a set of true blades, with matching persimmons. Built in 1952. My scores for nine holes were approximately 10 strokes worse with this clubs than the Ping G20's I was using at the time. At least a stroke per hole.



    So don't be daft. The clubs matter.



    I could play clubs like that every round for a year and never break 90 from the ladies tees.


    If one that plays regularly any at all and can't break 90 from the red tees I don't see what difference ANY club, especially irons would make.




    Yet my personal best for a full round with Ping G irons is 75 playing from 5,800 yards and my personal best for nine holes with the MacGregor "Jimmy Demaret" blades and persimmons is around 50 or 51 playing up a set at 5,200 yards. I never bothered to keep score for a full 18-hole round with the antiques but it would have been way over 90, probably over 100.



    There are plenty of people who can't hit a green from 150 yards with a butter-knife blade and 130g rebar shafts but who routinely knock it on from that distance with a modern 7-iron. Not just me.



    The clubs most certainly matter. Can't believe anyone is seriously trying to suggest otherwise. The stuff you can buy in a complete beginner's set at WalMart today is miles easier to play than any clubs you could buy for any price 40-50 years ago. Or do you think clubs are designed totally differintly now just for looks?
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,564 ✭✭
    Give me literally any mainstream set on the market with the shafts of my choosing and I'll be within 1 shot of my current index.
    Cobra F8+ 8.5 w/Matrix Black Tie 80
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  • boggymanboggyman Members Posts: 2,622 ✭✭

    boggyman wrote:



    MtlJeff wrote:


    Clubs are both overrated and underrated.



    They are not significant enough that being a good player is dependent on the clubs you play. I'd venture a guess that clubs you play could affect your handicap by at most 2 shots. At MOST



    that being said if it affects your index even by .3, well I'd rather be lower than higher
    at the end of the day its only a guess. There is no way to say how a golfer on any given day would play a round any better or worse with different golf clubs than what he or she played the round with. And that goes for both sides of the argument.




    I have owned a set of true blades, with matching persimmons. Built in 1952. My scores for nine holes were approximately 10 strokes worse with this clubs than the Ping G20's I was using at the time. At least a stroke per hole.



    So don't be daft. The clubs matter.



    I could play clubs like that every round for a year and never break 90 from the ladies tees.


    If one that plays regularly any at all and can't break 90 from the red tees I don't see what difference ANY club, especially irons would make.




    Yet my personal best for a full round with Ping G irons is 75 playing from 5,800 yards and my personal best for nine holes with the MacGregor "Jimmy Demaret" blades and persimmons is around 50 or 51 playing up a set at 5,200 yards. I never bothered to keep score for a full 18-hole round with the antiques but it would have been way over 90, probably over 100.



    There are plenty of people who can't hit a green from 150 yards with a butter-knife blade and 130g rebar shafts but who routinely knock it on from that distance with a modern 7-iron. Not just me.



    The clubs most certainly matter. Can't believe anyone is seriously trying to suggest otherwise. The stuff you can buy in a complete beginner's set at WalMart today is miles easier to play than any clubs you could buy for any price 40-50 years ago. Or do you think clubs are designed totally differintly now just for looks?


    I’d agree that clubs today are to certain standards more forgiving than those of years gone by. On the other hand, give an average Joe 12 balls from 150yds and see how many land ANYWHERE on the green. I have a set of FG17s that I bag regularly from time to time and score no worse than with my Cleveland HBs, Launchers from ‘06 with reg graphite, XR Callaway, or my V6 Raws, . I’m away from the game a month at a time due to my work cycle, 28 on 28 off. Play religiously 3 plus days a week when off though. It’s all about consistency. Play what fits ones eye and go have fun. I personally know of no o e that plays this game fir a living, although many on here type as though they do, AND have all the swing thoughts in process when in actuality, most likely can’t play their way outta a wet paper bag!! There’s my 2 cents. Enjoy the game my fellow WRX’ers!!
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    edited Sep 18, 2018 #174
    Just to put a few ballpark numbers on this...


    boggyman wrote:


    I'd agree that clubs today are to certain standards more forgiving than those of years gone by. On the other hand, give an average Joe 12 balls from 150yds and see how many land ANYWHERE on the green.




    [consults stats app]



    From 150 yards (fairway, rough combined) I put the ball on the green about 27% of the time.



    My average distance to hole from 150 (including both greens hit and greens missed) is 20 yards.



    To my thinking, I am just about the personification of Average Joe if "Joe" means golfers who play regularly and actually try to shoot a score. I play 2-3x a week and have a handicap index varies between 16 and 19 depending on the vagaries of my chipping yips and how many drivers I block OB off the tee.



    I played for many years with "players cavity backs" and my handicap back then generally ranged from 20 to 22. So as a very rough estimate, clubs that suit me absolutely perfectly and are forgiving as possible are worth about four strokes relative to clubs that look like something a better player would choose. Four strokes is chicken feed I know but on any given day I'd rather shoot 87 with fat, ugly clubs than 91 with shiny, skinny ones.



    P.S. Or 105 using classic clubs with a "cool factor" off the charts.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • boggymanboggyman Members Posts: 2,622 ✭✭


    Just to put a few ballpark numbers on this...


    boggyman wrote:


    I'd agree that clubs today are to certain standards more forgiving than those of years gone by. On the other hand, give an average Joe 12 balls from 150yds and see how many land ANYWHERE on the green.




    [consults stats app]



    From 150 yards (fairway, rough combined) I put the ball on the green about 27% of the time.



    My average distance to hole from 150 (including both greens hit and greens missed) is 20 yards.



    To my thinking, I am just about the personification of Average Joe if "Joe" means golfers who play regularly and actually try to shoot a score. I play 2-3x a week and have a handicap index varies between 16 and 19 depending on the vagaries of my chipping yips and how many drivers I block OB off the tee.



    I played for many years with "players cavity backs" and my handicap back then generally ranged from 20 to 22. So as a very rough estimate, clubs that suit me absolutely perfectly and are forgiving as possible are worth about four strokes relative to clubs that look like something a better player would choose. Four strokes is chicken feed I know but on any given day I'd rather shoot 87 with fat, ugly clubs than 91 with shiny, skinny ones.



    P.S. Or 105 using classic clubs with a "cool factor" off the charts.


    I’d rather have the 87 than 91 also. Maybe work on chipping and putting. Stray tee shots will kill us Joes,. That where one who gets up n down, putts good can score. It’s all between the ears. We just put way too much pressure on ourselves “trying” to manufacture that miraculous shot. It’s like anything else theses days, seems everyone is looking for the easy way out. Play what ya like and just enjoy the game, after all, a bad day at the course sure as **** beats working I like to say!! Here’s to better scores as well to ya......
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,660 ✭✭
    Cwebb wrote:





    Also, I am self-taught. For that reason, back then a relative on tour advised me if ball-striking was important to me switch to blades. His words, "blades will help me find the proper swing plane, and I believe that was true then... not so much today, as blade design has changed.






    That's a new one that I hadn't heard of image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />




    Using older style butterknife blades with dime sweet spot and COG closer to heal, try hitting the ball with a swing that's off-plane and see what happens. image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />
    • Titleist TS2 9.5, Fujikura Fuel Tour Spec 60 "S"
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, Project X7C3 Tour Issue
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Project X 5.5
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-PW, Project X 5.5
    • SM6 F-52*, Project X 5.5
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • AVX or ProV1




  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭

    Cwebb wrote:





    Also, I am self-taught. For that reason, back then a relative on tour advised me if ball-striking was important to me switch to blades. His words, "blades will help me find the proper swing plane, and I believe that was true then... not so much today, as blade design has changed.






    That's a new one that I hadn't heard of image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />




    Using older style butterknife blades with dime sweet spot and COG closer to heal, try hitting the ball with a swing that's off-plane and see what happens. image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />




    Punishing a bad swing is NOT the same thing as "help[ing] me find the proper swing plane". Nobody disputes that a butter knife blade will instantly and severely punish anything other than a good swing. That's not the stupid part. The stupid part is that the very act of punishing bad swings is magically teach you how to swing better. It's some kind of cockeyed Darwinian reasoning or something.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,163 ✭✭
    I think there is a chasm between what forgiving irons seems to do for some people vs. what they do for me. I feel short-changed, frankly.



    If face-to-path is off, I can miss a green with any club ever made, regardless of strike quality.



    If face-to-path is good, and strike is good, I'm hitting that green with any club in existence.



    If face to path is good, but strike is off I'm going to be short (unless I blade a wedge). There will be degrees of short, but I'll still be short. Is this where people with 'forgiving' designs are seeing the difference? Are you really gaining a handful of strokes a round with it? That, or something else?
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 10,365 ✭✭
    PorscheFan wrote:


    I think there is a chasm between what forgiving irons seems to do for some people vs. what they do for me. I feel short-changed, frankly.



    If face-to-path is off, I can miss a green with any club ever made, regardless of strike quality.



    If face-to-path is good, and strike is good, I'm hitting that green with any club in existence.



    If face to path is good, but strike is off I'm going to be short (unless I blade a wedge). There will be degrees of short, but I'll still be short. Is this where people with 'forgiving' designs are seeing the difference? Are you really gaining a handful of strokes a round with it? That, or something else?




    That's why I say it's all about the sole width/shape and blunt leading edge for me. My misses are 90% push/pull and 10% slice/hook (if that). And I play a course that often allows me to get away with coming up seriously short due to a mishit.



    SGI clubs simply allow me to survive thin/fat issues while lighter shafts let me keep the club on plane even late in the round when I get tired. The high MOI stuff and big clubfaces are great and I'm not saying I don't enjoy that as well. But I don't need a slice fixer or to get every last yard out of a high-toe contact.
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,660 ✭✭



    I wish I had played so much golf and gotten so good at it that I needed to use bad clubs just to keep it from being too easy and boring. Talk about your first-world problems?




    People seem to be taking this quite personally, I've no problems with anyone or any clubs they choose to play so why are people getting worked up about this?



    I don't think the first world problems term is applicable here as I am not complaining about anything, just expressing myself and how I like to approach things.



    And as regards whether I would rather spend £700 on a "shiny set of tiny-headed ‘blades” " or "big, ugly clubs that let you hit two more greens per round" - yes I would choose the shiny headed blades because for me they are desirable, challenging and beautiful and to me that has more value than hitting 2 more greens per round. And I would always looks at eh big ugly clubs and think - "Ewww - those clubs are ugly, I wish I'd bought the **** blades"!




    Why? Some people feel inferior and or take certain subjects personally, others are driven by bias, obstinate, bossy and have poor social skills or combination of all the aforementioned.

    I won't argue over my choices with people. My choices are for me, no one else. Besides, there are enough club choices out there that me having to like how my clubs look at address is not a hinderence to my ability to score with said clubs.



    A friend lugs ugly shovels around and plays to 13-15 index. I am not streching it when saying, more forgiveness doesn't necessary mean the user will hit 2 more greens. More than likely it means his poorly struck shots won't be "really deep" in the junk, just in the junk. image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />
    • Titleist TS2 9.5, Fujikura Fuel Tour Spec 60 "S"
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, Project X7C3 Tour Issue
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Project X 5.5
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-PW, Project X 5.5
    • SM6 F-52*, Project X 5.5
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • AVX or ProV1




  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,660 ✭✭


    Cwebb wrote:





    Also, I am self-taught. For that reason, back then a relative on tour advised me if ball-striking was important to me switch to blades. His words, "blades will help me find the proper swing plane, and I believe that was true then... not so much today, as blade design has changed.






    That's a new one that I hadn't heard of image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />




    Using older style butterknife blades with dime sweet spot and COG closer to heal, try hitting the ball with a swing that's off-plane and see what happens. image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />




    Punishing a bad swing is NOT the same thing as "help[ing] me find the proper swing plane". Nobody disputes that a butter knife blade will instantly and severely punish anything other than a good swing. That's not the stupid part. The stupid part is that the very act of punishing bad swings is magically teach you how to swing better. It's some kind of cockeyed Darwinian reasoning or something.




    Actually the sad aspect is the person that can't figure out the problem from a bad swing, learn from his mistakes and progress downward to 2-3.
    • Titleist TS2 9.5, Fujikura Fuel Tour Spec 60 "S"
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, Project X7C3 Tour Issue
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Project X 5.5
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-PW, Project X 5.5
    • SM6 F-52*, Project X 5.5
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • AVX or ProV1




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