Help me understand why kids walk off putts

kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,839 ClubWRX
edited Sep 17, 2018 in Juniors/College Golf Talk #1
My son Played in the palm spring open today and two of our playing partners walked off every putt. 2 ft or 20 ft. Im ok with it but one of the kids would step right in my sons line by the hole. He did it at least 4 times. The kid is pretty small so i didnt say anything. That said, its really annoying.
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  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,842 ✭✭
    I know two very good players in their 50s that walk off every putt.



    For some knowing the distance helps with whatever calculus goes on in their head to know how far to hit it.



    That said, I &!$%ing hate having to watch it. Drives me nuts.
  • TigerMomTigerMom Members Posts: 215 ✭✭
    kekoa wrote:


    My son Played in the palm spring open today and two of our playing partners walked off every putt. 2 ft or 20 ft. Im ok with it but one of the kids would step right in my sons line by the hole. He did it at least 4 times. The kid is pretty small so i didnt say anything. That said, its really annoying.




    to measure the length of the putt
  • DixieDDixieD Members Posts: 158
    I do this, but never directly from the hole so i dont trample the green near the cup, or in someone's line, and I always do it first thing on reaching the green so I don't hold everyone up. I have a hard time visualising how far something is so it gives me a definite number that through practice I have a decent idea of how hard to hit the put. Not everybody's cup of tea but done correctly harms nobody.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,039 ✭✭
    They do it for two reasons. The first is they think it helps them and who knows if it really does. The second reason is because they it do it to annoy you.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,059 ✭✭
    Part of routine. First thing my kid does when he gets to the green and marks the ball. Feels the slope with his feet from both sides and looks at the break on the other side. Also gets an understanding of the distance. He never steps in another players line as he is always conscious of where there marks are. He does it fast and plays fast.



    Played two rounds with a kid a couple of weeks ago and it was miserable. I kept texting Leezer about it during the tournament. This kid was 2 minutes every single putt. He wouldn't start his routine until it was his turn. He used aim point and it was the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. Every kid and parent that had to play with him over the 3 days were complaining. If he didn't like the line on his ball or something interfered, he would start the entire process over. It was fake as well because you could tell he didn't even know what he was looking for. Caused his group the last day to get a red card in the event. Had there not been a weather delay the entire group would've taken a penalty stroke. Thank goodness the last day mine was playing in the lead group. Still, playing behind him was as miserable as playing with him.
  • The GeneralThe General Members Posts: 1,727 ✭✭
    and the slow play continues.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,059 ✭✭


    and the slow play continues.




    Doesn't have to if they are diligent about the process. My kid goes through his routine every shot whether casual or tournament round. He will walk and play a 18 hole casual round with a buddy in about 3 hours. Going through a routine doesn't have to make you slow.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,039 ✭✭



    and the slow play continues.




    Doesn't have to if they are diligent about the process. My kid goes through his routine every shot whether casual or tournament round. He will walk and play a 18 hole casual round with a buddy in about 3 hours. Going through a routine doesn't have to make you slow.




    Yes routines are not the problem at all. Lots people like to complain about them but usually the kids with routines are the ones playing fast because they actually hit with a purpose and par or birdie holes.



    The worst thing is when you are paired with kids who do no routines and just whack the ball and then can't find it in the bushes every hole. The other one that is hard to play with is the kid who can't read a green but thinks they can and spends forever on every putt.
  • hangontighthangontight Members Posts: 543 ✭✭
    edited Sep 17, 2018 #10
    Congrats on the win, Looks like 2 solid rounds.



    I notice it a lot (especially at regionals and worlds )- it seems these brutally long and intricate routines are contrived by the parents and instilled in the kids with no concern of how long it takes. I see this a lot with the non-golfing parents who are pushing their trophy kids to perfection (via a 2 minute putting routine). These parents seem ignorant to some of the principles and ettiquette of the game, especially pace of play, since they don’t appear to be golfers themselves. I’me all for growing the game and inclusivity for all, but sometimes I wish USKG required parent seminars where they could really push these issues. 2nd and 3rd rounds at Worlds this year for 7 Yo boys this year took 3h20m and 3h45m , respectively Thay is 9 holes each!.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,059 ✭✭


    Congrats on the win, Looks like 2 solid rounds.



    I notice it a lot (especially at regionals and worlds )- it seems these brutally long and intricate routines are contrived by the parents and instilled in the kids with no concern of how long it takes. I see this a lot with the non-golfing parents who are pushing their trophy kids to perfection (via a 2 minute putting routine). These parents seem ignorant to some of the principles and ettiquette of the game, especially pace of play, since they don't appear to be golfers themselves. I'me all for growing the game and inclusivity for all, but sometimes I wish USKG required parent seminars where they could really push these issues. 2nd and 3rd rounds at Worlds this year for 7 Yo boys this year took 3h20m and 3h45m , respectively Thay is 9 holes each!.




    That is nuts to take over 2 hours for a 9 hole round.



    This post brings me to a point that I forgot to make. It is extremely inconsiderate to all of the other players when a routine consistently takes to long. On the putting greens is the worst. 15 practice strokes while staring at the hole is insane. Once it is your turn it should take you no more than 15-30 seconds to putt the ball unless you are the first one playing on the green. Even then should take no longer than a minute to figure it out. If you take longer then that, you don't have any respect for you playing partners or the other players on the course.
  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 169 ✭✭
    edited Sep 17, 2018 #12
    kekoa wrote:


    My son Played in the palm spring open today and two of our playing partners walked off every putt. 2 ft or 20 ft. Im ok with it but one of the kids would step right in my sons line by the hole. He did it at least 4 times. The kid is pretty small so i didnt say anything. That said, its really annoying.




    Walking "along the line" of putts is fine, as long as it's done once and within 45 seconds. As others have said, it helps visualize the distance, instead of ball park estimate.

    Walking "on the line" is illegal, per rule 16-1a

    http://www.usga.org/...s.html#!rule-16



    Walking on someone's line is no good, and it's OK to politely remind the player not to do so. "Hey Jimmy, be careful not to step on the line."



    BTW 106F, 107F weather this weekend was unbearable.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 867 ✭✭
    The worst local tournament for us is immediately after the Worlds. All of the kids come back from Worlds and have extended routines. Nearly got our first red card penalty this year due to kid/caddie taking forever (they ended up shooting +11-ish for 9 holes). Of course, if we had been assessed a penalty, I would have protested as advised here: http://www.uskidsgolf.com/tournaments/player-info/uskg-policies/pace-play-policy



    Appeal Process

    Players wishing to appeal a pace of play penalty must do so with the Committee after completion of play and prior to signing and returning the scorecard. Reasons for appealing pace of play include but are not limited to: one or two players slowing the entire group or other situations beyond the group’s control. If appealed, penalties can be rescinded for the group or individual players.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,039 ✭✭
    wildcatden wrote:


    The worst local tournament for us is immediately after the Worlds. All of the kids come back from Worlds and have extended routines. Nearly got our first red card penalty this year due to kid/caddie taking forever (they ended up shooting +11-ish for 9 holes). Of course, if we had been assessed a penalty, I would have protested as advised here: http://www.uskidsgolf.com/tournaments/player-info/uskg-policies/pace-play-policy



    Appeal Process

    Players wishing to appeal a pace of play penalty must do so with the Committee after completion of play and prior to signing and returning the scorecard. Reasons for appealing pace of play include but are not limited to: one or two players slowing the entire group or other situations beyond the group’s control. If appealed, penalties can be rescinded for the group or individual players.




    You can appeal all you want I doubt you will get anywhere in most tournaments



    We did a local US kids tournament and long story shot had a weather delay that caused problems. The timing was real bad for our group because only half the group had actually gotten to tee off. The kids were teeing off as soon as we got to the ball and nearly hit us because they wanted to get everyone off as bad weather was still coming in. The next hole was long walk to the next hole and official told us to walk faster since everyone else had carts and we too slow. When I said we are allowed to walk I was told to basically rent a cart if that is my issue and that was not an excuse and we deserved a penalty. We basically ran to the hole but it really screwed up our pace after that.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,059 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    wildcatden wrote:


    The worst local tournament for us is immediately after the Worlds. All of the kids come back from Worlds and have extended routines. Nearly got our first red card penalty this year due to kid/caddie taking forever (they ended up shooting +11-ish for 9 holes). Of course, if we had been assessed a penalty, I would have protested as advised here: http://www.uskidsgolf.com/tournaments/player-info/uskg-policies/pace-play-policy



    Appeal Process

    Players wishing to appeal a pace of play penalty must do so with the Committee after completion of play and prior to signing and returning the scorecard. Reasons for appealing pace of play include but are not limited to: one or two players slowing the entire group or other situations beyond the group’s control. If appealed, penalties can be rescinded for the group or individual players.




    You can appeal all you want I doubt you will get anywhere in most tournaments



    We did a local US kids tournament and long story shot had a weather delay that caused problems. The timing was real bad for our group because only half the group had actually gotten to tee off. The kids were teeing off as soon as we got to the ball and nearly hit us because they wanted to get everyone off as bad weather was still coming in. The next hole was long walk to the next hole and official told us to walk faster since everyone else had carts and we too slow. When I said we are allowed to walk I was told to basically rent a cart if that is my issue and that was not an excuse and we deserved a penalty. We basically ran to the hole but it really screwed up our pace after that.




    I refuse to rent a cart. If they are worried about pace and weather then they should give you one. $47.00 for a tourney and another $25.00 for a cart is robbery.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,039 ✭✭
    edited Sep 17, 2018 #16

    tiger1873 wrote:

    wildcatden wrote:


    The worst local tournament for us is immediately after the Worlds. All of the kids come back from Worlds and have extended routines. Nearly got our first red card penalty this year due to kid/caddie taking forever (they ended up shooting +11-ish for 9 holes). Of course, if we had been assessed a penalty, I would have protested as advised here: http://www.uskidsgolf.com/tournaments/player-info/uskg-policies/pace-play-policy



    Appeal Process

    Players wishing to appeal a pace of play penalty must do so with the Committee after completion of play and prior to signing and returning the scorecard. Reasons for appealing pace of play include but are not limited to: one or two players slowing the entire group or other situations beyond the group’s control. If appealed, penalties can be rescinded for the group or individual players.




    You can appeal all you want I doubt you will get anywhere in most tournaments



    We did a local US kids tournament and long story shot had a weather delay that caused problems. The timing was real bad for our group because only half the group had actually gotten to tee off. The kids were teeing off as soon as we got to the ball and nearly hit us because they wanted to get everyone off as bad weather was still coming in. The next hole was long walk to the next hole and official told us to walk faster since everyone else had carts and we too slow. When I said we are allowed to walk I was told to basically rent a cart if that is my issue and that was not an excuse and we deserved a penalty. We basically ran to the hole but it really screwed up our pace after that.




    I refuse to rent a cart. If they are worried about pace and weather then they should give you one. $47.00 for a tourney and another $25.00 for a cart is robbery.




    I can't stand that policy with US kids of carts between the hole either make everyone walk or give everyone carts. You can't mix them and punish players who don't have them. I will not go into it now but we had more then on official tell us to keep up carts. I will say though hitting greens off the tee tends to shut them up image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 867 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:


    tiger1873 wrote:

    wildcatden wrote:


    The worst local tournament for us is immediately after the Worlds. All of the kids come back from Worlds and have extended routines. Nearly got our first red card penalty this year due to kid/caddie taking forever (they ended up shooting +11-ish for 9 holes). Of course, if we had been assessed a penalty, I would have protested as advised here: http://www.uskidsgolf.com/tournaments/player-info/uskg-policies/pace-play-policy



    Appeal Process

    Players wishing to appeal a pace of play penalty must do so with the Committee after completion of play and prior to signing and returning the scorecard. Reasons for appealing pace of play include but are not limited to: one or two players slowing the entire group or other situations beyond the group’s control. If appealed, penalties can be rescinded for the group or individual players.




    You can appeal all you want I doubt you will get anywhere in most tournaments



    We did a local US kids tournament and long story shot had a weather delay that caused problems. The timing was real bad for our group because only half the group had actually gotten to tee off. The kids were teeing off as soon as we got to the ball and nearly hit us because they wanted to get everyone off as bad weather was still coming in. The next hole was long walk to the next hole and official told us to walk faster since everyone else had carts and we too slow. When I said we are allowed to walk I was told to basically rent a cart if that is my issue and that was not an excuse and we deserved a penalty. We basically ran to the hole but it really screwed up our pace after that.




    I refuse to rent a cart. If they are worried about pace and weather then they should give you one. $47.00 for a tourney and another $25.00 for a cart is robbery.




    I can't stand that policy with US kids of carts between the hole either make everyone walk or give everyone carts. You can't mix them and punish players who don't have them. I will not go into it now but we had more then on official tell us to keep up carts. I will say though hitting greens off the tee tends to shut them up image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />.




    We have only rented a cart for two tournaments (one due to extreme heat even though we played 1st day walking and the other due to distance between holes). At $53/tourney (plus another $7 so closer to $60 if you average in the local tour fee) and then adding $25-$30 for a cart for 9-holes? Well, that just doesn't fit my means. I'm OK if it fits others means.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,839 ClubWRX
    edited Sep 18, 2018 #18
    TigerMom wrote:

    kekoa wrote:


    My son Played in the palm spring open today and two of our playing partners walked off every putt. 2 ft or 20 ft. Im ok with it but one of the kids would step right in my sons line by the hole. He did it at least 4 times. The kid is pretty small so i didnt say anything. That said, its really annoying.




    to measure the length of the putt




    Oh so kids have a specific stroke for 2,5,10, and 20 ft putts? It does take a lot of time and its almost impossible not to trample in another players line if you have a three or four ball.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 19,888 ✭✭
    This school principal's perspective is that some younger players haven't yet developed the intuitive capacity to judge the distance of the putt, so giving them an aid to work from is likely a good idea (as plodding and time consuming as it is, I agree). We all think kids just go ahead and "do things," but as true as that is for some, it can be the opposite for others. For young kids, there is great diversity in learning and needs, which is fun from a teacher's perspective, but not so much from an observer's perspective.



    Hope that helps.
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  • HackerD  HackerD Student of the game Members Posts: 3,150 ✭✭
    I haven’t started doing it but was thinking I should pace off all (longer) putts to improve distance control. Since I like to read the putt behind the hole I’m walking it anyway, should not take extra time.
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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,130 ✭✭
    Obviously these kids are being taught to walk off putts to help them process the distance they'll need to roll the putt. I couldn't tell you if it helps or not, but I doubt its necessary as anything more than a practice drill.



    Do athletes in other sports do this? There are plenty of sports (basketball, baseball, football, tennis, to name a few) where you have to throw, shoot, or hit a ball a pretty precise distance to hit your intended target. There's no time to pace it off, just visually assess your target and let it fly.



    I doubt it would be helpful for a shortstop to know that that ball he just fielded needs to be thrown 111.5' to reach the first baseman...lol!



    I do however agree wholeheartedly with walking around the green to assess your putt, uphill/downhill, slopes, runoffs, grain, etc. This can be done quickly before it's your turn to putt and with out interfering with others. I believe it's best to walk the "low" side of a putt to get the best sense of break.
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  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,059 ✭✭
    dpb5031 wrote:






    I doubt it would be helpful for a shortstop to know that that ball he just fielded needs to be thrown 111.5' to reach the first baseman...lol!








    It doesn't matter if the ball is thrown 20 ft. past the first baseman either. That throw just needs to be on target and pace isn't an issue.



    A basketball player knows the free throw line and 3 pt. line are fixed distances.



    All other sports fields of play are marked with distance measuring devices where as golf is not. Pace is more important than line in putting. I don't have a problem with any player pacing off a putt as long as they do it in a timely manner.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,130 ✭✭

    dpb5031 wrote:






    I doubt it would be helpful for a shortstop to know that that ball he just fielded needs to be thrown 111.5' to reach the first baseman...lol!








    It doesn't matter if the ball is thrown 20 ft. past the first baseman either. That throw just needs to be on target and pace isn't an issue.



    A basketball player knows the free throw line and 3 pt. line are fixed distances.



    All other sports fields of play are marked with distance measuring devices where as golf is not. Pace is more important than line in putting. I don't have a problem with any player pacing off a putt as long as they do it in a timely manner.




    Very good points and perhaps it is useful in a young player's development. I dont see too many high level players doing it though. Perhaps they've advanced to the point where distance control in lag putting becomes intuitive?



    Personal experience tells me that over-processing is as harmful as under-processing on the greens. If I were to sit there and conciously think about the actual length of a putt, and then attempt to produce the appropriate speed required to die the ball around the hole, my results wouldn't be very good at all.



    In fact, my worst results in putting come when I allow thoughts of how much effort is required to get the ball to the hole enter my head versus just reacting intuitively to the target and the break I see in my mind's eye.



    Our mind-body connection is pretty amazing and if we learn to get out of our own way and allow the subconscious to take over, the results can be pretty amazing.
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  • benlenahanbenlenahan Members Posts: 18
    I don’t see this much at the high school level. I don’t know why, I would assume that as your skill progresses you become more confident with your game and your ability to read a feel the green, so a simple two-way read will suffice. It’s jsut down to personal preference in the end, alright I’d prefer if people don’t. Played jsut the other day with a kid who did it, neared a six hour round because of his slow pace. Brutal.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,059 ✭✭
    benlenahan wrote:
    I don’t see this much at the high school level. I don’t know why, I would assume that as your skill progresses you become more confident with your game and your ability to read a feel the green, so a simple two-way read will suffice. It’s jsut down to personal preference in the end, alright I’d prefer if people don’t. Played jsut the other day with a kid who did it, neared a six hour round because of his slow pace. Brutal.




    No offense, but high school level golf is not a high level.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,839 ClubWRX

    benlenahan wrote:
    I don’t see this much at the high school level. I don’t know why, I would assume that as your skill progresses you become more confident with your game and your ability to read a feel the green, so a simple two-way read will suffice. It’s jsut down to personal preference in the end, alright I’d prefer if people don’t. Played jsut the other day with a kid who did it, neared a six hour round because of his slow pace. Brutal.




    No offense, but high school level golf is not a high level.




    I dont think he was inferring that high school is high level golf. I assume its just what he has direct experience with. D1 College golfers nor pga players walk off putts. Hows that? ��
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 867 ✭✭
    edited Sep 19, 2018 #27
    kekoa wrote:


    benlenahan wrote:
    I don’t see this much at the high school level. I don’t know why, I would assume that as your skill progresses you become more confident with your game and your ability to read a feel the green, so a simple two-way read will suffice. It’s jsut down to personal preference in the end, alright I’d prefer if people don’t. Played jsut the other day with a kid who did it, neared a six hour round because of his slow pace. Brutal.




    No offense, but high school level golf is not a high level.




    I dont think he was inferring that high school is high level golf. I assume its just what he has direct experience with. D1 College golfers nor pga players walk off putts. Hows that? ��




    Tiger does this very similar routine these days, but from his book in 2001(?) he has walking the putt off in his routine. Now, he's not walking to or from the whole and counting out steps out loud, but he is walking the putt off.



    ********************************************************************

    Tiger Woods in his book How I play Golf says this.

    "A good putting stroke requires smooth rhythm and a steady, repeating pace. One of the secrets to accomplishing that is to do everything else smoothly and repetitively, too.

    I’m talking about my [background=rgb(255, 200, 203)]pre-putt routine[/background], or the series of things I do before I actually pull the trigger with the putter."



    His routine is:
    • Take a general view of the putt while standing behind the ball
    • Walk to the hole and take a side view of the line to help determine the slope
    • Examine the area around the hole
    • Walk back to the ball and crouch behind it to get the most telling view of the speed and the break
    • Stand alongside the ball and make two rehearsal strokes
    • Move the putter behind the ball and then shift the feet forward
    • Take two more looks at the path of the putt and the hole
    • Stroke the putt


    ******************************************************************
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,839 ClubWRX
    wildcatden wrote:

    kekoa wrote:


    benlenahan wrote:
    I don’t see this much at the high school level. I don’t know why, I would assume that as your skill progresses you become more confident with your game and your ability to read a feel the green, so a simple two-way read will suffice. It’s jsut down to personal preference in the end, alright I’d prefer if people don’t. Played jsut the other day with a kid who did it, neared a six hour round because of his slow pace. Brutal.




    No offense, but high school level golf is not a high level.




    I dont think he was inferring that high school is high level golf. I assume its just what he has direct experience with. D1 College golfers nor pga players walk off putts. Hows that? ��




    Tiger does this very similar routine these days, but from his book in 2001(?) he has walking the putt off in his routine. Now, he's not walking to or from the whole and counting out steps out loud, but he is walking the putt off.



    ********************************************************************

    Tiger Woods in his book How I play Golf says this.

    "A good putting stroke requires smooth rhythm and a steady, repeating pace. One of the secrets to accomplishing that is to do everything else smoothly and repetitively, too.

    I’m talking about my [background=rgb(255, 200, 203)]pre-putt routine[/background], or the series of things I do before I actually pull the trigger with the putter."



    His routine is:
    • Take a general view of the putt while standing behind the ball
    • Walk to the hole and take a side view of the line to help determine the slope
    • Examine the area around the hole
    • Walk back to the ball and crouch behind it to get the most telling view of the speed and the break
    • Stand alongside the ball and make two rehearsal strokes
    • Move the putter behind the ball and then shift the feet forward
    • Take two more looks at the path of the putt and the hole
    • Stroke the putt


    ******************************************************************




    Show me one video of tiger walking off a putt and Ill send you $100 bill. Hurry you have 10 seconds tho.
  • CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 418 ✭✭
    Interesting thread - never would have thought this topic would be so controversial



    I think pacing out putts can be useful as sometimes our eyes play tricks on us (and not everyone has same vision/depth perception). Pace of play is important and walking to the hole should be done as efficiently as possible to keep the flow going. No reason to hate IMVHO
  • Golfer4LifeGolfer4Life “Don’t bother me with your pettiness” Lake Placid, N.Y. Whiteface G.C.ClubWRX Posts: 2,301 ✭✭
    edited Sep 19, 2018 #30
    I only go halfway to read the break and that's it. On straight putts I don't even bother.



    I think for Junior golfers is not a bad thing, but I think the coach or parent should be mindful of pace of play.
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  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,059 ✭✭
    edited Sep 19, 2018 #31


    I only go halfway to read the break and that's it. On straight putts I don't even bother.



    I think for Junior golfers is not a bad thing, but I think the coach or parent should be mindful of pace of play.




    I love it when people venture to the Junior Section to give advice when they aren't regulars here. I see you have a 15 handicap. You do realize that the majority of these juniors we are talking about are better than you? Yet you venture over here to throw your 2 cents in. Maybe you are a 15 handicap because you are not looking at the hole from both sides. Thanks for nothing.
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