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Are you kidding me!! How come few instructors talk about this!!!!

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern California 18617WRX Points: 1,094Members Posts: 18,617
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    iteachgolf wrote:

    Go_Time wrote:


    So the front shoulder goes down and starts to go slightly around/open before starting to go up-around once the hands are near the rear thigh?




    Correct. Starts working up just after p5, so a bit before hands get right thigh.




    Which makes the video a certain disentor made, irelelvent to the discussion...even if you look past the lead should not even being in the frame.
    Posted:
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  • Ghost of SneadGhost of Snead  2828WRX Points: 246Members Posts: 2,828
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    jromes23 wrote:


    https://m.youtube.co...h?v=scsvBiRDVb4



    Just a short clip done indoors since it's cold here. All I'm trying to show is how my lead shoulder works up and out from the very beginning. Hopefully I can get some outdoor stuff done tomorrow.




    Very beginning of what ?
    Posted:
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  • GolfTurkeyGolfTurkey  612WRX Points: 141Members Posts: 612
    Joined:  edited Oct 7, 2018 #124

    iteachgolf wrote:

    Go_Time wrote:


    So the front shoulder goes down and starts to go slightly around/open before starting to go up-around once the hands are near the rear thigh?




    Correct. Starts working up just after p5, so a bit before hands get right thigh.




    Which makes the video a certain disentor made, irelelvent to the discussion...even if you look past the lead should not even being in the frame.




    And looks like a horrible reverse hip slide / spin out to my uneducated eye. Without keeping my left shoulder down in transition, I go into right side tilt too soon and hit handle-raising hooks all day long.
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern California 18617WRX Points: 1,094Members Posts: 18,617
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    GolfTurkey wrote:


    iteachgolf wrote:

    Go_Time wrote:


    So the front shoulder goes down and starts to go slightly around/open before starting to go up-around once the hands are near the rear thigh?




    Correct. Starts working up just after p5, so a bit before hands get right thigh.




    Which makes the video a certain disentor made, irelelvent to the discussion...even if you look past the lead should not even being in the frame.




    And looks like a horrible reverse hip slide / spin out to my uneducated eye. Without keeping my left shoulder down in transition, I go into right side tilt too soon and hit handle-raising hooks all day long.




    Happens to me too, especially with driver.



    If right shoulder goes straight down, or left shoulder goes up first move, it’s basically a recipe to EE, lose rush line and hump the goat.
    Posted:
  • ALIFALIF Arizona 2667WRX Points: 262Members Posts: 2,667
    Joined:  #126

    GolfTurkey wrote:


    iteachgolf wrote:

    Go_Time wrote:


    So the front shoulder goes down and starts to go slightly around/open before starting to go up-around once the hands are near the rear thigh?




    Correct. Starts working up just after p5, so a bit before hands get right thigh.




    Which makes the video a certain disentor made, irelelvent to the discussion...even if you look past the lead should not even being in the frame.




    And looks like a horrible reverse hip slide / spin out to my uneducated eye. Without keeping my left shoulder down in transition, I go into right side tilt too soon and hit handle-raising hooks all day long.




    Happens to me too, especially with driver.



    If right shoulder goes straight down, or left shoulder goes up first move, it’s basically a recipe to EE, lose rush line and hump the goat.




    That is my swing fault that you spotted the first time you saw me for a lesson several years ago. Your zipper away drill has help me a lot to minimize that.
    Posted:
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  • ShilgyShilgy Phoenix 11964WRX Points: 1,095Members Posts: 11,964
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    jromes23 wrote:






    Just a short clip done indoors since it’s cold here. All I’m trying to show is how my lead shoulder works up and out from the very beginning. Hopefully I can get some outdoor stuff done tomorrow.
    Is it a secret? Cannot see above your sternum in the video.
    Posted:
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  • jromes23jromes23  34WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 34
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    Shilgy wrote:

    jromes23 wrote:






    Just a short clip done indoors since it’s cold here. All I’m trying to show is how my lead shoulder works up and out from the very beginning. Hopefully I can get some outdoor stuff done tomorrow.
    Is it a secret? Cannot see above your sternum in the video.



    Yeah it’s not the best video but if you look at the arm structurethrough impact in MY swing it’s not being driven by that lead shoulder moving down and in or even down at all. at least to me that’s how it is
    Posted:
  • mstrammstram  188WRX Points: 35Members Posts: 188
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    jromes23 wrote:


    https://m.youtube.co...h?v=scsvBiRDVb4



    Just a short clip done indoors since it's cold here. All I'm trying to show is how my lead shoulder works up and out from the very beginning. Hopefully I can get some outdoor stuff done tomorrow.




    So you focus / limit the camera view to your hands, hips .. legs. ? I.e everything EXCEPT the shoulders ??????????
    Posted:
  • golfarb1golfarb1  180WRX Points: 1Members Posts: 180
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    Not sure why this discussion has gone on so long.The lead shoulder moving down is a natural result of left hip external rotation and abduction to start the transition,This causes the left knee to rotate and to move out and around

    Lee Trevino's swing is an obvious example of this.

    There is no need to do anything fancy with the shoulders.Just practice G Gankas transition move and forget about the AMG videos.

    Posted:
  • Krt22Krt22 East Bay 8267WRX Points: 2,032Members Posts: 8,267
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    AMG actually does a much better job explaining it how and why it's important. No need to discard it
    Posted:
  • LefthookLefthook Golf nerd  3296WRX Points: 148Members Posts: 3,296
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    iteachgolf wrote:

    mstram wrote:


    The only reason Scott, DJ's left shoulders are moving down in the transition is because they have rotated their shoulders more than 90 deg on the backswing, to the point the "shoulder-point" has moved UP ! (relative to the face on horizontal / horizon).



    The shoulders turn LEVEL relative to the spine.



    So of course, to turn the shoulders on the downswing, the left shoulder APPEARS to moves "down", but that is just from a face on perspective relative to horizontal.



    Every good golf swing I've seen has the shoulders moving together, in the same plane of motion.



    Without a golf club in your hands, or without the intention of a golf swing, you can move your shoulders independently all over the place, but making a swing ? ... turn one or the other shoulder, ... your preference .. the other shoulder will "follow".




    Not true at all. It doesn’t “appear” to move down. It does move down. Sternum and head both move down and forward. And it stays lower well past 90* and visible in players who don’t turn past 90*. It’s not a visual illusion, it’s measurable on 3D.





    https://imgur.com/a/0HxikJR



    Another good example from a guy who hits it about as good as anyone IMO




    Thanks for putting up that video, iteach,



    A question for the pros and the other experts:



    The down and forward of the lead shoulder looks like a by-product of transitioning to a forward pivot axis eith lead hip and lead foot etc. Is that all there is to this - a byproduct- or does it serve another purpose?

    iteachgolf wrote:

    mstram wrote:


    The only reason Scott, DJ's left shoulders are moving down in the transition is because they have rotated their shoulders more than 90 deg on the backswing, to the point the "shoulder-point" has moved UP ! (relative to the face on horizontal / horizon).



    The shoulders turn LEVEL relative to the spine.



    So of course, to turn the shoulders on the downswing, the left shoulder APPEARS to moves "down", but that is just from a face on perspective relative to horizontal.



    Every good golf swing I've seen has the shoulders moving together, in the same plane of motion.



    Without a golf club in your hands, or without the intention of a golf swing, you can move your shoulders independently all over the place, but making a swing ? ... turn one or the other shoulder, ... your preference .. the other shoulder will "follow".




    Not true at all. It doesn’t “appear” to move down. It does move down. Sternum and head both move down and forward. And it stays lower well past 90* and visible in players who don’t turn past 90*. It’s not a visual illusion, it’s measurable on 3D.





    https://imgur.com/a/0HxikJR



    Another good example from a guy who hits it about as good as anyone IMO




    Thanks for putting up that video, iteach,



    A question for the pros and the other experts:



    The down and forward of the lead shoulder looks like a by-product of transitioning to a forward pivot axis eith lead hip and lead foot etc. Is that all there is to this - a byproduct- or does it serve another purpose?
    Posted:
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  17008WRX Points: 1,137Members Posts: 17,008
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    The lead side staying down longer maintains width in the arms, eliminates EE, and creates more shaft lean. It happens as left leg increases in flex and left side bend increases. You will actually see hip tilts steepen in transition.



    If lead hip gets in front of lead knee the leg will straighten too early and left side will raise too early. So it’s not as simple as transitioning to lead side
    Posted:
  • ryan983ryan983  750WRX Points: 134Members Posts: 750
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    golfarb1 wrote:


    Not sure why this discussion has gone on so long.The lead shoulder moving down is a natural result of left hip external rotation and abduction to start the transition,This causes the left knee to rotate and to move out and around

    Lee Trevino's swing is an obvious example of this.

    There is no need to do anything fancy with the shoulders.Just practice G Gankas transition move and forget about the AMG videos.






    You have it backwards. Working on the left shoulder down will improve your pivot. Just pivoting isn’t going to make your left shoulder move lower.
    Posted:
  • ray9898ray9898  847WRX Points: 240Members Posts: 847
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    LOL...'shaking with rage'. People are such drama queens these days.
    Posted:
  • kobe123kobe123 Golf Is A Way Of Life  1234WRX Points: 169Jr. Boomers Posts: 1,234
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    golfarb1 wrote:


    Not sure why this discussion has gone on so long.The lead shoulder moving down is a natural result of left hip external rotation and abduction to start the transition,This causes the left knee to rotate and to move out and around

    Lee Trevino's swing is an obvious example of this.

    There is no need to do anything fancy with the shoulders.Just practice G Gankas transition move and forget about the AMG videos.

    [media=]




    I would disagree with forgetting the AMG videos. They have a ton of great information with proven results. It may get too technical for some, but I enjoy the content! It's super detailed with actual pros hitting balls on the catalyst and gears. Do they give out ways to fix what they are saying? Not all the time, but that's why they have a premium website. Too each their own though, I truly enjoy AMG.
    Posted:
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South Texas 2019WRX Points: 905ClubWRX Posts: 2,019
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    So I think to some extent I have occasionally performed this move not really knowing what I did. I did seem to hit the ball solid, but I have concerns.



    1) It seemed that my clubhead speed suffered a bit. Not sure whether the ball flew shorter or not, but it felt like the swing was more cramped through impact.



    2) I worry about hitting the shot fat. Lowering the lead shoulder feels like a steepening move which makes me nervous as I approach impact. My game hates fat shots pretty much as bad as my wrists do.
    Posted:
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  • blehnhardblehnhard Over The Hill & Almost Down The Other Side  536WRX Points: 126Members Posts: 536
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    I think there is some misinterpretation of what is actually happening. The left shoulder is not "turning" forward and moving down. In the initial stages of transition, the shoulders do not turn (think keep back to target). The lowering and forward motion of the lead shoulder is caused by the increase in "flexion" of legs, rib cage, etc. The whole body is lowering (includes the head) and moving forward which increases pressure on the lead foot. Center of mass and center of pressure are moving forward and down into left leg (probably not expressed correctly, but that what it feels like).



    You are now ready to unwind the shoulders (arms have already dropped down into P5/P6). Lower half is now opening up and lead shoulder is now beginning its upward and backward movement. Lead leg is beginning to straighten - this is the "jump" up that shallows the club and provides parametric acceleration to the club. When you are at P6, you should feel ready to spring up.



    One does not want to throw the hips forward out from under the upper body as this will lead to early axis tilt.



    I Teach and Monte explain it better but maybe a "different" version will help clear it up for some people.
    Posted:
  • golfarb1golfarb1  180WRX Points: 1Members Posts: 180
    Joined:  #139
    kobe123 wrote:

    golfarb1 wrote:


    Not sure why this discussion has gone on so long.The lead shoulder moving down is a natural result of left hip external rotation and abduction to start the transition,This causes the left knee to rotate and to move out and around

    Lee Trevino's swing is an obvious example of this.

    There is no need to do anything fancy with the shoulders.Just practice G Gankas transition move and forget about the AMG videos.

    [media=]




    I would disagree with forgetting the AMG videos. They have a ton of great information with proven results. It may get too technical for some, but I enjoy the content! It's super detailed with actual pros hitting balls on the catalyst and gears. Do they give out ways to fix what they are saying? Not all the time, but that's why they have a premium website. Too each their own though, I truly enjoy AMG.


    I have three issues with AMG

    1.CONFIRMATION BIAS

    They seem to select videos which are consistent with their pre determined point of view.Confirmation bias is a common problem in any model.There are statistical methods to minimize this effect.

    2.I have questions as to the number of sensors ,the placement of sensors and the algorithms which determine the results

    3.Remember 3d software is JUST a measuring tool even if the results are %100 accurate.It will not make a silk purse of of a sows ear..There are a number of other pros who have an in depth understanding of the golf swing and have had decades of success with their students
    Posted:
  • Buckets2Buckets2  2565WRX Points: 287Members Posts: 2,565
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    I'm suffering from some pull-draws when working on this. I know nearly impossible to give advice without video, but any broad tips or thoughts?
    Posted:
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  17008WRX Points: 1,137Members Posts: 17,008
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    blehnhard wrote:


    I think there is some misinterpretation of what is actually happening. The left shoulder is not "turning" forward and moving down. In the initial stages of transition, the shoulders do not turn (think keep back to target). The lowering and forward motion of the lead shoulder is caused by the increase in "flexion" of legs, rib cage, etc. The whole body is lowering (includes the head) and moving forward which increases pressure on the lead foot. Center of mass and center of pressure are moving forward and down into left leg (probably not expressed correctly, but that what it feels like).



    You are now ready to unwind the shoulders (arms have already dropped down into P5/P6). Lower half is now opening up and lead shoulder is now beginning its upward and backward movement. Lead leg is beginning to straighten - this is the "jump" up that shallows the club and provides parametric acceleration to the club. When you are at P6, you should feel ready to spring up.



    One does not want to throw the hips forward out from under the upper body as this will lead to early axis tilt.



    I Teach and Monte explain it better but maybe a "different" version will help clear it up for some people.




    The shoulders are opening as the lead side lowers. But most of that is correct
    Posted:
  • TMoakley1547TMoakley1547  178WRX Points: 95Members Posts: 178
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    When I rehearse this move, it feels like i end up OTT. Delaying trail side bend too long maybe?
    Posted:
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  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & Burgh 3714WRX Points: 439Members Posts: 3,714
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2018 #143


    So I think to some extent I have occasionally performed this move not really knowing what I did. I did seem to hit the ball solid, but I have concerns.



    1) It seemed that my clubhead speed suffered a bit. Not sure whether the ball flew shorter or not, but it felt like the swing was more cramped through impact.



    2) I worry about hitting the shot fat. Lowering the lead shoulder feels like a steepening move which makes me nervous as I approach impact. My game hates fat shots pretty much as bad as my wrists do.


    The move creates more space since it involves regaining flexion versus early extending. It is a steepening move. But it goes with a lateral move in transition and one needs to be shallowing or else it's a bad match up and leads to fat, shanks, bad stuff. Going to feel like you are eating the ground when done, especially if one has not done it. Going to allow one to keep the trail elbow bent longer and to extend it through release versus early. Lots of good things but like all things golf needs to match up. Someone already coming over the top could really hit some left of left it stick the club Into the ground.

    One of my favorite videos on it ( though it is not the sole focus of the video).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s5OS2OKaa4
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    Enjoy every sandwich.

  • blehnhardblehnhard Over The Hill & Almost Down The Other Side  536WRX Points: 126Members Posts: 536
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    I know for me, the most important part is feeling the "crunch" (additional flexion) rather than trying to "force" the lead shoulder lower. It lowers due to the crunch, but as Dan corrected me, the upper torso begins to open up as you are "crunching". So you can have the net effect of the left shoulder moving lower and forward while at the same time it is beginning to open and move upward (only in reference to its movement perpendicular to the spine). So if you have 4" of "crunch" down, 4" of lateral movement forward and 2" of lead shoulder rotating perpendicular to the spine, at that given point, the lead shoulder is 2" closer to the ground (lower) and somewhat more forward of its top of backswing position.



    I played on Saturday and picked up about 10 yards with the driver just by moving down and forward into my left leg and then allowing myself to "jump" (spring up). Thinking about what my left shoulder was doing at the same time was a little counter productive. Did not feel if I was swinging any "faster" or "harder" - just more efficiently. At 76 years, I can use all of the efficiency I can find. Had some drives in the 250 to 260 range with average firmness on the fairways.



    I think this is a little easier to do with irons as you are trying to get a descending strike.
    Posted:
  • carreracarrera  2612WRX Points: 187Members Posts: 2,612
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    Something I worked a lot starting in 1992 on from one of GolfWRX favorite instructors




    Leadbetter?
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  • JesterdocJesterdoc  38WRX Points: 0Members Posts: 38
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    Holy Goat Humps this got confusing as a rednecks family tree.



    Do a crunch, flex, extend, rotate, pivot, but don’t reverse pivot, spinal lumbar sacral manipulation, lead shoulder, right shoulder. If I didn’t already have a ruptured disk I might when I get through this one.



    I’m lookin’ like Kevin Costner in the one scene from Tin Cup when he has ‘el hoe-zels ‘ on the range trying to figure all this out.



    MONTE! Will zipper away / back to target, combined with the Trevino’s left knee rotation (since I watched you on BBG saying it takes 2 things to change 1) help me with this and help me to quit coming OTT and the dang ball flippin’ the right blinker on and takin the off ramp at 90 from the far left lane off the tee box???
    Posted:
  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Los Angeles 5991WRX Points: 673Members Posts: 5,991
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    blehnhard wrote:
    At 76 years, I can use all of the efficiency I can find. Had some drives in the 250 to 260 range with average firmness on the fairways.






    That right there is awesome.



    Posted:
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  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & Burgh 3714WRX Points: 439Members Posts: 3,714
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2018 #148
    Jesterdoc wrote:


    Holy Goat Humps this got confusing as a rednecks family tree.



    Do a crunch, flex, extend, rotate, pivot, but don’t reverse pivot, spinal lumbar sacral manipulation, lead shoulder, right shoulder. If I didn’t already have a ruptured disk I might when I get through this one.



    I’m lookin’ like Kevin Costner in the one scene from Tin Cup when he has ‘el hoe-zels ‘ on the range trying to figure all this out.



    MONTE! Will zipper away / back to target, combined with the Trevino’s left knee rotation (since I watched you on BBG saying it takes 2 things to change 1) help me with this and help me to quit coming OTT and the dang ball flippin’ the right blinker on and takin the off ramp at 90 from the far left lane off the tee box???


    This might help.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykiohVeKQys
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    Enjoy every sandwich.

  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Los Angeles 5991WRX Points: 673Members Posts: 5,991
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    Jesterdoc wrote:
    Holy Goat Humps this got confusing as a rednecks family tree.



    Do a crunch, flex, extend, rotate, pivot, but don’t reverse pivot, spinal lumbar sacral manipulation, lead shoulder, right shoulder. If I didn’t already have a ruptured disk I might when I get through this one.



    I’m lookin’ like Kevin Costner in the one scene from Tin Cup when he has ‘el hoe-zels ‘ on the range trying to figure all this out.



    MONTE! Will zipper away / back to target, combined with the Trevino’s left knee rotation (since I watched you on BBG saying it takes 2 things to change 1) help me with this and help me to quit coming OTT and the dang ball flippin’ the right blinker on and takin the off ramp at 90 from the far left lane off the tee box???




    Don’t know if this will help, and to be clear I’m just another guy trying to fix a bunch of bad habits.



    How all of this has made sense to me started from the way I could most reliably shallow the shaft - get the r shoulder/hands deep on the backswing, then move left arm off the chest. Since my habit was to pull the handle down, this feels like moving the left arm horizontally (parallel to the ground).



    But made me want to counter it and create more space for the arms to get in front of my body - eg, squat/crunch/zipper away, or whatever. These two motions feel totally linked to me. One complements the other. I think this is why Monte posted all those synonyms for the same core idea a few pages back.



    This is still a work in progress for me and I won’t pretend to fully understand it, but this is a solid start.



    My point is this whole idea isn’t a bunch of unrelated moves but all start to hang together. You start somewhere and then other elements tend to get dragged into the picture.



    How does one deal with the complexity? Slow motion reps to put all these new feels together so that they are not so separated in your mental map of the swing...
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  • ShutSteepStuckShutSteepStuck Grinding like Briny Baird The Valley 1508WRX Points: 116Members Posts: 1,508
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    jromes23 wrote:


    https://m.youtube.co...h?v=scsvBiRDVb4



    Just a short clip done indoors since it's cold here. All I'm trying to show is how my lead shoulder works up and out from the very beginning. Hopefully I can get some outdoor stuff done tomorrow.




    wait...what is that clip showing...?



    I feel like I lost 3 seconds of my life b/c I watched it 3x felling like I may have missed something...SHAME ON ME



    Nice long con btw. as I see you've been around for a while...very strong!
    Posted:
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  • ObeeObee  3982WRX Points: 753ClubWRX Posts: 3,982
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    jromes23 wrote:


    [url="



    Just a short clip done indoors since it's cold here. All I'm trying to show is how my lead shoulder works up and out from the very beginning. Hopefully I can get some outdoor stuff done tomorrow.




    wait...what is that clip showing...?



    I feel like I lost 3 seconds of my life b/c I watched it 3x felling like I may have missed something...SHAME ON ME



    Nice long con btw. as I see you've been around for a while...very strong!




    "Long con." Love it.
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Rich Text Editor. To edit a paragraph's style, hit tab to get to the paragraph menu. From there you will be able to pick one style. Nothing defaults to paragraph. An inline formatting menu will show up when you select text. Hit tab to get into that menu. Some elements, such as rich link embeds, images, loading indicators, and error messages may get inserted into the editor. You may navigate to these using the arrow keys inside of the editor and delete them with the delete or backspace key.