Are you kidding me!! How come few instructors talk about this!!!!

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  • Swingman420Swingman420  173Banned Posts: 173
    Joined:  #182
    For rec players these ideas are poison.

    The swing should not put you in uncomfortable unnatural positions.

    You don’t need to emulate a pro to play to scratch.

    Stay uncomplicated.



    SHAKA
    Posted:
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  • trileriantrilerian  420Members Posts: 420
    Joined:  #183
    But you don't want to lose all the flexion in the back swing, correct? In the first pic above it looks like the guy is leaning towards the target, wouldn't this be reverse pivoting? The second pic looks good, where there is still tilt away from the target. So you would want to maintain enough flexion to keep the original secondary tilt you had at address. At least to my understanding, or regain it as well.
    Posted:
  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & Burgh 3658Members Posts: 3,658
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2018 #184
    trilerian wrote:


    But you don't want to lose all the flexion in the back swing, correct? In the first pic above it looks like the guy is leaning towards the target, wouldn't this be reverse pivoting? The second pic looks good, where there is still tilt away from the target. So you would want to maintain enough flexion to keep the original secondary tilt you had at address. At least to my understanding, or regain it as well.


    Yes you lose it all - going to depend on the player but you pretty much stand up during the backswing. Reverse pivoting is keeping weight/ pressure on lead side - not happening in pics.

    second pic is just bringing the hands into a top of bs position - can do this with a club - just lean it against your thigh then when in pic 1, pick it up with your left hand and bring the right hand to it to complete the bs position - don't move the right shoulder down just move the arm.



    Secondary tilt at setup is very little - at most 10* with driver if at all and less with all other clubs - don't need much additional right tilt at setup , right hand is already lower.



    Here's Shawn Webb with 3D of backswing showing how forward flexion is replaced via left side bend, and extension.. when done, I at least feel a stretch of my core at the top instead of the lead side lat - lead side lat stretch comes in transition.



    [url="
    Posted:
  • Redjeep83Redjeep83  5545Members Posts: 5,545
    Joined:  #185
    dap wrote:


    This guy drops his lead shoulder with the best of them. Hope this is not how folks reading this thread are trying to do it lol





    [media=]




    drop left shoulder and jump up so he doesn't stick the club into the ground. You know there are guys doing this same thing from reading these threads, just a little more gracefully than Barkely
    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern California 18553Members Posts: 18,553
    Joined:  #186
    This thread is about regaining flexion, so you don’t early extend. You need to extend in the backswing to regain flexion in transition.



    Players of all skill levels should do this.



    There are obviolsuy other factors.



    Not more complicated than this.



    Posted:
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  16989Members Posts: 16,989
    Joined:  #187


    For rec players these ideas are poison.

    The swing should not put you in uncomfortable unnatural positions.

    You don’t need to emulate a pro to play to scratch.

    Stay uncomplicated.



    SHAKA




    Everything in golf at one time is unnatural and uncomfortable. If what feels natural and comfortable is complete **** then you have to make a change. And literally every change will feel uncomfortable, unnatural, and foreign. It’s literally the nature of change
    Posted:
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  • Swingman420Swingman420  173Banned Posts: 173
    Joined:  #188
    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There’s not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA
    Posted:
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf  16989Members Posts: 16,989
    Joined:  #189


    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There’s not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA




    And who’s advocating for them to be machines? You continuously make straw man arguments against things nobody is advocating. We get it, you don’t like mechanics. So why not avoid all threads on swing mechanics?
    Posted:
  • grizztraxgrizztrax  178Members Posts: 178
    Joined:  #190


    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There’s not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA




    Right because then this will happen. Sorry couldn’t help myself.



    Posted:
  • golfarb1golfarb1  180Members Posts: 180
    Joined:  #191
    iteachgolf wrote:



    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There's not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA




    And who's advocating for them to be machines? You continuously make straw man arguments against things nobody is advocating. We get it, you don't like mechanics. So why not avoid all threads on swing mechanics?


    The problem with threads like this is NOT that they convey incorrect information,but that the way to implement changes appears to be complicated.

    The average golfer does give a **** rats tail about lateral side bend or gaining or regaining flexion.
    Posted:
  • Ghost of SneadGhost of Snead  2811Members Posts: 2,811
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2018 #192
    golfarb1 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:



    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There's not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA




    And who's advocating for them to be machines? You continuously make straw man arguments against things nobody is advocating. We get it, you don't like mechanics. So why not avoid all threads on swing mechanics?


    The problem with threads like this is NOT that they convey incorrect information,but that the way to implement changes appears to be complicated.

    The average golfer does give a **** rats tail about lateral side bend or gaining or regaining flexion.




    Since 90% of average golfers don't take lessons and don't read GolfWrX, I think average golfers will be OK. No one should be implementing changes from a golf thread unless they've posted their own swing and gotten advice from a pro.
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  • ShilgyShilgy Phoenix 11942Members Posts: 11,942
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    golfarb1 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:



    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There's not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA




    And who's advocating for them to be machines? You continuously make straw man arguments against things nobody is advocating. We get it, you don't like mechanics. So why not avoid all threads on swing mechanics?


    The problem with threads like this is NOT that they convey incorrect information,but that the way to implement changes appears to be complicated.

    The average golfer does give a **** rats tail about lateral side bend or gaining or regaining flexion.




    Since 90% of average golfers don't take lessons and don't read GolfWrX, I think average golfers will be OK. No one should be implementing changes from a golf thread unless they've posted their own swing and gotten advice from a pro.
    Oh for crying out loud, next you'll declare the new hot TM driver is not a sound investment to fix our driving woes. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
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  • GolfTurkeyGolfTurkey  612Members Posts: 612
    Joined:  #194
    golfarb1 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:



    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There's not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA




    And who's advocating for them to be machines? You continuously make straw man arguments against things nobody is advocating. We get it, you don't like mechanics. So why not avoid all threads on swing mechanics?


    The problem with threads like this is NOT that they convey incorrect information,but that the way to implement changes appears to be complicated.

    The average golfer does give a **** rats tail about lateral side bend or gaining or regaining flexion.




    Perhaps that's why average golfers are average golfers?
    Posted:
  • SilkySilky  731Members Posts: 731
    Joined:  #195


    Iteach,

    It is not just do what is natural according to Ernest Jones, no. The club must be moved in a specific manner.

    It must be swung, not levered.

    Most people I see early extending apply leverage right from the top. Incorrect sequencing if you will.

    Upper body dominated movement in transition often is caused by the players failure to recognize or even be aware of the simple fact that the club must be swung, not levered.

    There's not many real rules about it. People are not machines nor should they try to become machines.



    SHAKA




    People belong to the animal kingdom. Animal motions follow the laws of mechanics. They are machines, albeit very sophisticated ones with intricated feedback and coordination among body parts.



    A golf swing is a lot simple than other coordinated motions such as walking. I would love to have a golf swing with the efficiency and precision of a simple machine like a trebuchet.
    Posted:
  • golfarb1golfarb1  180Members Posts: 180
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #196
    glk wrote:

    trilerian wrote:


    But you don't want to lose all the flexion in the back swing, correct? In the first pic above it looks like the guy is leaning towards the target, wouldn't this be reverse pivoting? The second pic looks good, where there is still tilt away from the target. So you would want to maintain enough flexion to keep the original secondary tilt you had at address. At least to my understanding, or regain it as well.


    Yes you lose it all - going to depend on the player but you pretty much stand up during the backswing. Reverse pivoting is keeping weight/ pressure on lead side - not happening in pics.

    second pic is just bringing the hands into a top of bs position - can do this with a club - just lean it against your thigh then when in pic 1, pick it up with your left hand and bring the right hand to it to complete the bs position - don't move the right shoulder down just move the arm.



    Secondary tilt at setup is very little - at most 10* with driver if at all and less with all other clubs - don't need much additional right tilt at setup , right hand is already lower.



    Here's Shawn Webb with 3D of backswing showing how forward flexion is replaced via left side bend, and extension.. when done, I at least feel a stretch of my core at the top instead of the lead side lat - lead side lat stretch comes in transition.



    [media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qxemxkja7Y&t=319s[/media]


    I googled the term INCLINATION TO THE GROUND that was used in the above video .There are one reference to golf in the first 20 pages that I checked and that reference was on page 1 and linked to to the Stack and Tilt golf swing.INCLINATION TO THE GROUND is a NOT an anatomical or kinesiology term and was developed by S+T fans.

    ONLY 10 degrees driver tilt?

    Not the best golfer in the world . :16- :32 in the below video. nor the longest driver of all time Jamie Sadlowski

    [media=]





    Now I have no problems with those who promote the S+T swing,but at least they should admit it.
    Posted:
  • Krt22Krt22 East Bay 8024Members Posts: 8,024
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #197
    For rec players these ideas are poison.

    The swing should not put you in uncomfortable unnatural positions.

    You don’t need to emulate a pro to play to scratch.

    Stay uncomplicated.



    SHAKA




    And this the inherent issue with all of your silly off tangent rants. This is Golfwrx, where your average member isn't just a recreational golfer. Not just your average weekend hacker happy to be away from the wife while shooting 100+ with liberal application of the rules of golf.



    The average member (esp in this subforum) is a hobbyist, ethusiast, or straight up fanatic of not just golf but the golf swing itself.



    So please start your own threads on the hollistic approach to golf. Your off topic posts only pollute threads like this that are full of substance and information that can actually make some folks better.



    If you don't like mechanics, stop posting antagonsitix replies in threads about mechanics. Start your own thread "Ernest Jones and swinging the club" and have at it all in there.



    SHAKA
    Posted:
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  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & Burgh 3658Members Posts: 3,658
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #198
    golfarb1 wrote:

    glk wrote:

    trilerian wrote:


    But you don't want to lose all the flexion in the back swing, correct? In the first pic above it looks like the guy is leaning towards the target, wouldn't this be reverse pivoting? The second pic looks good, where there is still tilt away from the target. So you would want to maintain enough flexion to keep the original secondary tilt you had at address. At least to my understanding, or regain it as well.


    Yes you lose it all - going to depend on the player but you pretty much stand up during the backswing. Reverse pivoting is keeping weight/ pressure on lead side - not happening in pics.

    second pic is just bringing the hands into a top of bs position - can do this with a club - just lean it against your thigh then when in pic 1, pick it up with your left hand and bring the right hand to it to complete the bs position - don't move the right shoulder down just move the arm.



    Secondary tilt at setup is very little - at most 10* with driver if at all and less with all other clubs - don't need much additional right tilt at setup , right hand is already lower.



    Here's Shawn Webb with 3D of backswing showing how forward flexion is replaced via left side bend, and extension.. when done, I at least feel a stretch of my core at the top instead of the lead side lat - lead side lat stretch comes in transition.



    [media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qxemxkja7Y&t=319s[/media]


    I googled the term INCLINATION TO THE GROUND that was used in the above video .There are one reference to golf in the first 20 pages that I checked and that reference was on page 1 and linked to to the Stack and Tilt golf swing.INCLINATION TO THE GROUND is a NOT an anatomical or kinesiology term and was developed by S+T fans.

    ONLY 10 degrees driver tilt?

    Not the best golfer in the world . :16- :32 in the below video. nor the longest driver of all time Jamie Sadlowski

    [media=]





    Now I have no problems with those who promote the S+T swing,but at least they should admit it.


    With my handy dandy iphone measurement tool I get Koepka around 8*-9* shoulder tilt at setup. Measuring from crotch to head he is 3*-4* tilted. Gankas advocates only 7* tilt with driver (and notes that LD guys go to 12*). So it's clear, secondary tilt at address is the amount of spine tilt away from the target not the tilt of the shoulders.

    Other AMG GEARS videos show pro's setup with similar tilt. The reverse K (kicking their hips toward the target) that people get into to really tilt away from the target is not something good players do.
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • baudibaudi  673Members Posts: 673
    Joined:  #199
    [email protected] glk

    Jim Waldron prefers 15 degrees for a driver setup. That was 10 years ago.

    Absolute figures are individualistically set. Nevertheless important.
    Posted:
  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & Burgh 3658Members Posts: 3,658
    Joined:  edited Oct 11, 2018 #200
    baudi wrote:


    [email protected] glk

    Jim Waldron prefers 15 degrees for a driver setup. That was 10 years ago.

    Absolute figures are individualistically set. Nevertheless important.


    Agree that we are all different so shoulder tilt range is going to vary. Looked at Julian Suri (driver setup) from Dan's instagram and he has around 14* shoulder tilt and 5* spine tilt away from target (crotch to head). Sadklowki is 18* shoulder and 6* spine. Joe Miller is 14* and 8* Tim Burke 11* and 5*. In looking at a number of players with good swings, I note that the shoulder tilt can vary from 7* to around 18* but the spine tilt away from the target is much tighter - 4*-8* degrees. Again, secondary tilt is the spine tilt away from the target and not the shoulder tilt.



    Here's an AMG video on that shows issues(s) that can develop by attempting to get too much tilt at setup (via the reverse K). Am in video is at 18*-19* shoulder tilt and 10* from crotch to head.



    [media=]
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Swingman420Swingman420  173Banned Posts: 173
    Joined:  #201
    Krt22 wrote:

    For rec players these ideas are poison.

    The swing should not put you in uncomfortable unnatural positions.

    You don’t need to emulate a pro to play to scratch.

    Stay uncomplicated.



    SHAKA




    And this the inherent issue with all of your silly off tangent rants. This is Golfwrx, where your average member isn't just a recreational golfer. Not just your average weekend hacker happy to be away from the wife while shooting 100+ with liberal application of the rules of golf.



    The average member (esp in this subforum) is a hobbyist, ethusiast, or straight up fanatic of not just golf but the golf swing itself.



    So please start your own threads on the hollistic approach to golf. Your off topic posts only pollute threads like this that are full of substance and information that can actually make some folks better.



    If you don't like mechanics, stop posting antagonsitix replies in threads about mechanics. Start your own thread "Ernest Jones and swinging the club" and have at it all in there.



    SHAKA






    Listen, friend, if even one confused golfer gets help finding his way out of the bottomless pit of confusion and misinformation out there in the golf world, then my words have had a positive impact on the universe, you know?

    You have to ask yourself what creates the motion?

    For example in the video above it was said right in the beginning what was causing the issue.

    Sure mechanics matter, only a fool would try to argue they don’t.

    I love watching any good golfer with a nice swing and good mechanics.



    Peace out
    Posted:
  • trileriantrilerian  420Members Posts: 420
    Joined:  #202
    glk wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    [email protected] glk

    Jim Waldron prefers 15 degrees for a driver setup. That was 10 years ago.

    Absolute figures are individualistically set. Nevertheless important.


    Agree that we are all different so shoulder tilt range is going to vary. Looked at Julian Suri (driver setup) from Dan's instagram and he has around 14* shoulder tilt and 5* spine tilt away from target (crotch to head). Sadklowki is 18* shoulder and 6* spine. Joe Miller is 14* and 8* Tim Burke 11* and 5*. In looking at a number of players with good swings, I note that the shoulder tilt can vary from 7* to around 18* but the spine tilt away from the target is much tighter - 4*-8* degrees. Again, secondary tilt is the spine tilt away from the target and not the shoulder tilt.



    Here's an AMG video on that shows issues(s) that can develop by attempting to get too much tilt at setup (via the reverse K). Am in video is at 18*-19* shoulder tilt and 10* from crotch to head.



    [media=]




    I've seen that one before, maybe posted by you. Not sure. But... There are many face on pics of pros at the tops of there swing, and they have tilt away from the target at the top. But regardless, did you notice how much tilt the pro gains by impact? So how do you add that tilt by impact, just seems easier to add it in setup, and keep it in the back swing.
    Posted:
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  • Nard_SNard_S  3616Members Posts: 3,616
    Joined:  #203
    trilerian wrote:

    glk wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    [email protected] glk

    Jim Waldron prefers 15 degrees for a driver setup. That was 10 years ago.

    Absolute figures are individualistically set. Nevertheless important.


    Agree that we are all different so shoulder tilt range is going to vary. Looked at Julian Suri (driver setup) from Dan's instagram and he has around 14* shoulder tilt and 5* spine tilt away from target (crotch to head). Sadklowki is 18* shoulder and 6* spine. Joe Miller is 14* and 8* Tim Burke 11* and 5*. In looking at a number of players with good swings, I note that the shoulder tilt can vary from 7* to around 18* but the spine tilt away from the target is much tighter - 4*-8* degrees. Again, secondary tilt is the spine tilt away from the target and not the shoulder tilt.



    Here's an AMG video on that shows issues(s) that can develop by attempting to get too much tilt at setup (via the reverse K). Am in video is at 18*-19* shoulder tilt and 10* from crotch to head.



    [media=]




    I've seen that one before, maybe posted by you. Not sure. But... There are many face on pics of pros at the tops of there swing, and they have tilt away from the target at the top. But regardless, did you notice how much tilt the pro gains by impact? So how do you add that tilt by impact, just seems easier to add it in setup, and keep it in the back swing.





    At impact, better ball strikers have their lower spine, tailbone, more forward. That is largely done by getting it there on the back swing. DJ is an excellent visual of this.
    Posted:
  • Krt22Krt22 East Bay 8024Members Posts: 8,024
    Joined:  #204


    Listen, friend, if even one confused golfer gets help finding his way out of the bottomless pit of confusion and misinformation out there in the golf world, then my words have had a positive impact on the universe, you know?






    The issue is, the words you continue to use don't have any substance or value. Continuing to come into very specific threads and getting on your Ernest Jones soap box isn't productive. Telling folks to ignore what is being discussed and just "swing the club" isn't helping anyone.
    Posted:
  • Swingman420Swingman420  173Banned Posts: 173
    Joined:  #205
    Krt22



    Correlation is not causation. The most important fact about mechanics in this thread was in the video above, maybe you haven’t watched it?

    The amateur player had an idea to do a certain thing. That’s causative in golf. That’s important.

    Whether you agree or not to anyone’s ideas about mechanics it’s only style anyways very little is fundamental.

    It’s all a matter of taste.

    Golf history proves this. Almost any style can do well.

    It’s when the style is falsely correlated to skill and talent that problems come.

    You can’t escape the simple fact that what the club does determines everything.

    Style is style but it’s not fundamental.

    You can play with only one leg either left or right for example.

    Once you make the false mental connection that style equals skill you pretty much condemn yourself into a problem with infinite solutions.

    The word swing is important. No one makes a perfect swing in golf but many come close.

    Plus another aspect as well...

    People love science but guess what correlation is not causation.

    The ‘science’ being used with 3d etc is based on theory.

    There’s many available points of view about motor control learning.

    Some have more money behind them than others.

    It all comes down to needing to know what you are doing



    SHAKA BRAH



    Posted:
  • Krt22Krt22 East Bay 8024Members Posts: 8,024
    Joined:  #206
    and block list updated!
    Posted:
  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Los Angeles 5988Members Posts: 5,988
    Joined:  #207
    Krt22 wrote:
    and block list updated!




    Some people have a religious fanaticism about what works for them. Like those people who go door-to-door trying to help others see the light.
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  • johnrobisonjohnrobison In endless pursuit of P6 The OC 740Members Posts: 740
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    Listen, friend, if even one confused golfer gets help finding his way out of the bottomless pit of confusion and misinformation out there in the golf world, then my words have had a positive impact on the universe, you know?

    You have to ask yourself what creates the motion?

    For example in the video above it was said right in the beginning what was causing the issue.

    Sure mechanics matter, only a fool would try to argue they don’t.

    I love watching any good golfer with a nice swing and good mechanics.



    Peace out


    The teaching pros here who post rebuttals also show evidence to support their claims. Before and after swing videos, data, etc... Enthusiasts like me and others will post our swings, reveal indexes and trends, etc... We do this because we truly want others to learn from us and the only way for them to judge whether our assertions might be correct is by reviewing some sort of evidence. You have yet to provide any (something Ernest Jones said isn't evidence) making your claim that you want to have a positive impact dubious, at best.
    Posted:
  • Swingman420Swingman420  173Banned Posts: 173
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    Posted:
  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl  6090Members Posts: 6,090
    Joined:  #210

    Krt22 wrote:
    and block list updated!




    Some people have a religious fanaticism about what works for them. Like those people who go door-to-door trying to help others see the light.




    This definitely applies.
    Posted:
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CA 5850Members Posts: 5,850
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    buckeyefl wrote:


    Krt22 wrote:
    and block list updated!




    Some people have a religious fanaticism about what works for them. Like those people who go door-to-door trying to help others see the light.




    This definitely applies.




    Users have been dropping like flies in this sub. The RBMI guy, wildcat and, do I have this right, now Swingman?
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