Handicaps, is this really right and how to fix it?

So this has probably been discussed before, but please bear with me.

Numbers here are exact, but close enough for the example.

We have an ex-PGA club pro that keeps handicaps for all the group (20 people plus or minus). He says he does it by the USGA formula and I believe him, no reason for him to lie and he has no advantage to lie. Teams are picked at the beginning of each day and they change every day, He would never get an advantage

So here's what I don't understand about handicaps.........one example......we have a player that used to play from the white tees and had a 5 handicap (course rating almost 72), so he shot an average of say 77 (I really don't know what he averaged but that should be close enough for this example). He moves to the yellow tees, and shots an average of 75 (course rating is 67.5), but now his handicap is 7. So tell me, how does a guy play a 800 yard shorter and easier course and his handicap go up??

It kills betting games, because now instead of 5 shots a round on a harder course he gets 7 shots a round on an easier course!!! On a good day he is likely to shot a net of 64 or 63

As a low handicapper I can't complete, If I have a good round I'm shooting 70 for a net 69. No way I'm ever shooting 65 for a net 64, just impossible. But I bitching...:) Even if it is the truth

So 2 questions: explain how handicaps can work this way, (handicap goes up playing an easier course) and what can be done to make the playing field more level??

Thanx guys

Signed

Frustrated

If he’s shooting the same scores on an easier track, his handicap goes up.

75-67.5=7.5 then modify by the slope. So he’s about a 7 or 8 cap playing from the yellows.

Are you all playing yellow? This is the problem if you guys are playing white and he’s playing yellow.

For example, let’s say the course rating for the white tees everyone else is playing is 71.5. Everyone but him gets their cap for the day using the slope on the white tees. You say you are a 2 from those tees. Fine. He is a 7 from the yellow. Got it.

71.5-67.5= 4 shots.

So when you play white and he plays yellow, it’s his 7 cap minus your 2 cap, so he’s getting 5 shots, then subtract the 4 shot difference from course rating and you only give him 1 shot.

So while he’s a “7” while playing yellows, he needs to subtract 4 shots because everyone else is playing white.

So for low net you shoot 73 for a net 71, he shoots 75 for a net 72, because he’s only getting 3 shots, not 7.

I hope that clears it up and you guys can get this sorted.

I don’t get it. He’s shooting lower scores on a lower rated set of tees per your numeric examples, but your describing the opposite.

I still don’t understand why someone will have different effective handicaps depending on what tees they play for that day, but I know it’s usually the higher the course rating- the higher their effective handicap is. But with the case of the guy at your club; it’s because according to the usga he should be shooting much better from the yellows than the whites (roughly 4.5 strokes) and since he only shoots 2 strokes better on average, his handicap goes up when he plays those tees consistently as opposed to playing the whites consistently.

As pointed out above, the player is playing "worse" relative to the course rating than he was when he played the white tees. Maybe the guy hasnt figured out how to play from shorter tees or he's had a severe injury and lost a lot of distance? You average the 800yards over 18 holes and thats 44 yard shorter per hole. I know id be lost for a while making that jump.

If he’s shooting the same scores on an easier track, his handicap goes up.

 

75-67.5=7.5 then modify by the slope. So he’s about a 7 or 8 cap playing from the yellows.

 

Are you all playing yellow? This is the problem if you guys are playing white and he’s playing yellow.

 

For example, let’s say the course rating for the white tees everyone else is playing is 71.5. Everyone but him gets their cap for the day using the slope on the white tees. You say you are a 2 from those tees. Fine. He is a 7 from the yellow. Got it.

 

71.5-67.5= 4 shots.

 

So when you play white and he plays yellow, it’s his 7 cap minus your 2 cap, so he’s getting 5 shots, then subtract the 4 shot difference from course rating and you only give him 1 shot.

 

So while he’s a “7” while playing yellows, he needs to subtract 4 shots because everyone else is playing white.

 

So for low net you shoot 73 for a net 71, he shoots 75 for a net 72, because he’s only getting 3 shots, not 7.

 

I hope that clears it up and you guys can get this sorted.

This right here. Just went thru this with a group I play with. They were all fine giving us 2 strokes when we went back a tee box but were not fan if giving back strokes when they moved up a tee box this year

Here’s an example.

On 9/17 I played out white tees on 9/18 I played golds. I shot better on the gold but my differential was way worse.

If you pro-rate that for 10/20, I’d be an 8 or 9 cap instead of the 5 or 6 I am playing the whites.

https://i.imgur.com/1NgXIAZ.jpg

Nothing wrong with those numbers you have posted above. Good example.

The Gold tees are significantly easier than the whites. Almost 5 strokes easier for a scratch player.

You need to be shooting 70 for a 5.7 differential. (About the same as you get for shooting 75 off the Whites).

Of course if you played the Golds regularly you would adapt and start shooting lower scores. If you didn’t there is a course management problem.

And that€™s whats going on in the OPs situation. The guy is struggling to adapt to what is essentially a different course. Even though hes been playing it for a while, he just has bad course management. Probably hits the same club off the tees he always has, even though it brings different trouble into play.

he's been playing the yellow tees for a year now, so he is used to it. By his own admission his game hasn't changed and he's not playing worse, even if when compared to the course rating his game is worse.

Yes some guys play the white, mostly low handicap guys, and some play the yellow and some play the red.

Today a guy from the red tees with a 16 handicap shot 77, for a net 61!! And you know what the mid and high handicap guys said, "well his handicap will adjust for this round" and I say BS, there is no way I could ever shot a net 61, so while it is possible for a mid/high handicap to shot very low net, it is impossible a low handicap to ever do that. Whats possible for a mid/high handicapper is impossible for a low handicapper. The playing field is not level.

"If he’s shooting the same scores on an easier track, his handicap goes up". ....got it and understand

"So while he’s a “7” while playing yellows, he needs to subtract 4 shots because everyone else is playing white." Got it, this might work, but I can only imagine all the complaints from the mid and high handicap guys playing yellow tees when they are told their handicap is adjusted by -4 strokes

What about the guys whose argument is "the handicap system adjusts for differences in tees and ability, so if by handicap he's a 7 then he gets 7 shots" ?? and don't kid yourself, this is what every mid/high handicap player will say because they want all their strokes, so they can have a good day and shoot a net 65

Ah right Ive got it now. You have all just been calculating the handicaps incorrectly.

The number of strokes a player gets from a tee box assumes all players are on the same tees. If not an adjustment is required.

Unfortunately its tough luck for those guys who dont like it. That is the rules of golf. Its black and white.

This explains it as clearly as possible.

I wish you the best when you tell them they’re going to get less strokes. Been there done that, it doesn’t go over well.

Ah right Ive got it now. You have all just been calculating the handicaps incorrectly.

 

Unfortunately its tough luck for those guys who dont like it. That is the rules of golf. Its black and white.

 

This explains it as clearly as possible.

 

 

Where did this come from? Can you give me the link to the reference document please?

I played allot of golf with my daughter last year. For social reason and for fun I would tee off from the very front tee's with her. My handicap from the back tees was 5, but from her tees it was 0 or even +1. It was very rare I was able to shoot even par or better from the shortened course. The par 3's did not really matter as the adjustment in length was not significant enough to really change much how I played them. Two short par 4's I could reach, but as they were well protected I had to get lucky to run a ball on the green and have it hold. The par 5's were all reachable with mid irons and my best chance to make up strokes.

In the end these rounds pushed my cap up as typically I would shoot over par.

I am in NZ so thats from our handicapping guide. But we do use USGA handicap rules. You will need a USGA document to prove it to these guys.

Heres what you need. It also says quite clearly that ignoring this is not an option.

http:// https://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=6

And a more detailed explanation below. Here it goes into how to actually calculate your course handicap as well. You will already have that from the computer.

http:// http://www.usga.org/articles/2014/11/setting-the-proper-course-for-a-twotee-match-21474873956.html

Thats all the ammo you require to get things changed. Then youll have a fair fight!

perfect!!!!!!!!! thanx

Augster did a nice job explaining the rules. I would just add a few things based on 10 years experience at a club that uses Section 3-5 in many comps.

Some get it. Some do not.

Some do not want to get it. (Particularly the guys playing the lower rated set of tees.)

The bottom line is: it is a rule of golf and must be used. See decision 3-5/2:

http://www.usga.org/...!decision-14373

I wish you the best when you tell them they’re going to get less strokes. Been there done that, it doesn’t go over well.

It goes over easier if you tell the players that are playing from the more difficult tees that they get more strokes (instead of subtracting strokes for the players playing the less difficult tees) - same difference.

I wish you the best when you tell them they’re going to get less strokes. Been there done that, it doesn’t go over well.

 

It goes over easier if you tell the players that are playing from the more difficult tees that they get more strokes (instead of subtracting strokes for the players playing the less difficult tees) - same difference.

THat seems like a good way to do it. Calculate everyone's CH based off the forward tees, then add the correct extra strokes to the guys playing back. If folks cant understand why they get less strokes playing forward tees, well they simply should not be playing in competitive net events

The bigger hoopla will be going back and recalculating all the correct winners if the "pro" has been calculating CH incorrectly for over a year ( or more)

I wish you the best when you tell them they’re going to get less strokes. Been there done that, it doesn’t go over well.

 

It goes over easier if you tell the players that are playing from the more difficult tees that they get more strokes (instead of subtracting strokes for the players playing the less difficult tees) - same difference.

 

THat seems like a good way to do it. Calculate everyone's CH based off the forward tees, then add the correct extra strokes to the guys playing back. If folks cant understand why they get less strokes playing forward tees, well they simply should not be playing in competitive net events

 

The bigger hoopla will be going back and recalculating all the correct winners if the "pro" has been calculating CH incorrectly for over a year ( or more)

Yes, the calculations done outside of the handicap authority can always be questioned as to whether or not they are correct.

Further, the interpretations on handicaps presented above can also be incorrect - someone stated that a 5 handicap would be expected to shoot 5 over course rating on "average". Well, handicap isn't based on average score - it first selects the best 10 scores of the last 20 and averages those best 10 in order to continue the calculation. It then takes 96% of the average of those best 10 of the last 20.

A true "average" would include those other 10 scores that were not included, and wouldn't be adjusted to 96%. Playing to your GHIN handicap shouldn't happen much more than once in every three rounds (IIRC).

So they are playing, basically, 3 sets of tees. White/gold/red.

Absolutely correct to NOT subtract strokes from guys moving up. They’ll be pissed. But ADD strokes to guys moving back.

P1 plays red. Figure his cap for the day off the red slope. (12 e.g.) P2 plays yellow, figure his cap off the yellow slope. (14 e.g.) P3 plays white, figure his cap off the white slope. (4 e.g.)

In this example, red 64.5, yellow 67.5, white 71.5.

P1 gets his shots. P2 gets his shots PLUS (course rating yellow)-(course rating red). P3 gets his shots PLUS (course rating white) - (course rating red).

So, P1 gets his 12 shots playing red. P2 gets his 14 plus 3, so 17 shots playing yellow and P3 gets his 4 shots plus 7, so 11 shots playing white.

And now they can all play equitably.

BUT, the truly fairest, best way the cap system works is when all players play from the same tees.

At my course this is how I manipulate my cap. I’m going to shoot about the same scores. If I want my cap to go down, I play the back tees. If I want it to go up, I play our gold tees.

Next year I plan on playing the gold tees to fill my 10/20. Then moving back to the white and playing money games. I’m interested to see if I’m actually a 9 from the golds. If it works out that way, when I move back to the white were my cap fluctuates between 4 and 7 or 8, as a 9 I should be able to clean up a bit.

Or, I’ll learn to play the gold tees better and end up with a 5,6, or 7 cap anyway.

It’ll be a fun experiment.

So they are playing, basically, 3 sets of tees. White/gold/red.

 

Absolutely correct to NOT subtract strokes from guys moving up. They’ll be pissed. But ADD strokes to guys moving back.

 

P1 plays red. Figure his cap for the day off the red slope. (12 e.g.) P2 plays yellow, figure his cap off the yellow slope. (14 e.g.) P3 plays white, figure his cap off the white slope. (4 e.g.)

 

In this example, red 64.5, yellow 67.5, white 71.5.

 

P1 gets his shots. P2 gets his shots PLUS (course rating yellow)-(course rating red). P3 gets his shots PLUS (course rating white) - (course rating red).

 

So, P1 gets his 12 shots playing red. P2 gets his 14 plus 3, so 17 shots playing yellow and P3 gets his 4 shots plus 7, so 11 shots playing white.

 

And now they can all play equitably.

 

BUT, the truly fairest, best way the cap system works is when all players play from the same tees.

 

At my course this is how I manipulate my cap. I’m going to shoot about the same scores. If I want my cap to go down, I play the back tees. If I want it to go up, I play our gold tees.

 

Next year I plan on playing the gold tees to fill my 10/20. Then moving back to the white and playing money games. I’m interested to see if I’m actually a 9 from the golds. If it works out that way, when I move back to the white were my cap fluctuates between 4 and 7 or 8, as a 9 I should be able to clean up a bit.

 

Or, I’ll learn to play the gold tees better and end up with a 5,6, or 7 cap anyway.

 

It’ll be a fun experiment.

Part of the reason we moved up last year, moving three strokes in rating while shooting relatively similar scores will take the cap down in a hurry.......and then the wallet goes down in a hurry too.

But it’s amazing how few people realize there should be an adjustment if different tees are played. I know I didn’t until a couple of years ago. Learned it here. Our pros didn’t know.

So they are playing, basically, 3 sets of tees. White/gold/red.

 

Absolutely correct to NOT subtract strokes from guys moving up. They’ll be pissed. But ADD strokes to guys moving back.

 

P1 plays red. Figure his cap for the day off the red slope. (12 e.g.) P2 plays yellow, figure his cap off the yellow slope. (14 e.g.) P3 plays white, figure his cap off the white slope. (4 e.g.)

 

In this example, red 64.5, yellow 67.5, white 71.5.

 

P1 gets his shots. P2 gets his shots PLUS (course rating yellow)-(course rating red). P3 gets his shots PLUS (course rating white) - (course rating red).

 

So, P1 gets his 12 shots playing red. P2 gets his 14 plus 3, so 17 shots playing yellow and P3 gets his 4 shots plus 7, so 11 shots playing white.

 

And now they can all play equitably.

 

BUT, the truly fairest, best way the cap system works is when all players play from the same tees.

 

At my course this is how I manipulate my cap. I’m going to shoot about the same scores. If I want my cap to go down, I play the back tees. If I want it to go up, I play our gold tees.

 

Next year I plan on playing the gold tees to fill my 10/20. Then moving back to the white and playing money games. I’m interested to see if I’m actually a 9 from the golds. If it works out that way, when I move back to the white were my cap fluctuates between 4 and 7 or 8, as a 9 I should be able to clean up a bit.

 

Or, I’ll learn to play the gold tees better and end up with a 5,6, or 7 cap anyway.

 

It’ll be a fun experiment.

 

Part of the reason we moved up last year, moving three strokes in rating while shooting relatively similar scores will take the cap down in a hurry.......and then the wallet goes down in a hurry too.

up in (not such) a hurry. ;)

I wish you the best when you tell them they’re going to get less strokes. Been there done that, it doesn’t go over well.

 

It goes over easier if you tell the players that are playing from the more difficult tees that they get more strokes (instead of subtracting strokes for the players playing the less difficult tees) - same difference.

 

THat seems like a good way to do it. Calculate everyone's CH based off the forward tees, then add the correct extra strokes to the guys playing back. If folks cant understand why they get less strokes playing forward tees, well they simply should not be playing in competitive net events

 

The bigger hoopla will be going back and recalculating all the correct winners if the "pro" has been calculating CH incorrectly for over a year ( or more)

Yes, the calculations done outside of the handicap authority can always be questioned as to whether or not they are correct.

Further, the interpretations on handicaps presented above can also be incorrect - someone stated that a 5 handicap would be expected to shoot 5 over course rating on "average". Well, handicap isn't based on average score - it first selects the best 10 scores of the last 20 and averages those best 10 in order to continue the calculation. It then takes 96% of the average of those best 10 of the last 20.

A true "average" would include those other 10 scores that were not included, and wouldn't be adjusted to 96%. Playing to your GHIN handicap shouldn't happen much more than once in every three rounds (IIRC).

This isnt an issue with calculating someones index, for that I am assuming these folks are using a GHIN system and everyone is entering all of their scores correctly based on the tees they played. The issue here is the "pro" seems to be incorrectly calculating course handicaps, as it seems he is basing everyone's CH off a single set of tees when there needs to be an adjustment if you have golfers playing multiple sets of tees against each other

So they are playing, basically, 3 sets of tees. White/gold/red.

 

Absolutely correct to NOT subtract strokes from guys moving up. They’ll be pissed. But ADD strokes to guys moving back.

 

P1 plays red. Figure his cap for the day off the red slope. (12 e.g.) P2 plays yellow, figure his cap off the yellow slope. (14 e.g.) P3 plays white, figure his cap off the white slope. (4 e.g.)

 

In this example, red 64.5, yellow 67.5, white 71.5.

 

P1 gets his shots. P2 gets his shots PLUS (course rating yellow)-(course rating red). P3 gets his shots PLUS (course rating white) - (course rating red).

 

So, P1 gets his 12 shots playing red. P2 gets his 14 plus 3, so 17 shots playing yellow and P3 gets his 4 shots plus 7, so 11 shots playing white.

 

And now they can all play equitably.

 

BUT, the truly fairest, best way the cap system works is when all players play from the same tees.

 

At my course this is how I manipulate my cap. I’m going to shoot about the same scores. If I want my cap to go down, I play the back tees. If I want it to go up, I play our gold tees.

 

Next year I plan on playing the gold tees to fill my 10/20. Then moving back to the white and playing money games. I’m interested to see if I’m actually a 9 from the golds. If it works out that way, when I move back to the white were my cap fluctuates between 4 and 7 or 8, as a 9 I should be able to clean up a bit.

 

Or, I’ll learn to play the gold tees better and end up with a 5,6, or 7 cap anyway.

 

It’ll be a fun experiment.

 

Part of the reason we moved up last year, moving three strokes in rating while shooting relatively similar scores will take the cap down in a hurry.......and then the wallet goes down in a hurry too.

 

up in (not such) a hurry. ;)

I’m not ashamed to admit it!. I’d rather have another couple of slash marks on the card (denoting a stroke hole) than a really pretty number behind my name on the handicap sheet in the clubhouse. I’m not trying to qualify for anything with a minimum handicap requirement (blew that opportunity this summer, could have played US Senior Open qualifier at the Broadmoor. I don’t care about the inevitable letter I would have received from the USGA, I could have played for $500 less money!), I’m trying to take a little cash of my buddies.

It’s on the up and up though. Everything posted. It’s just that a poor round isn’t always such a bad thing. Or playing at the other two courses that are rated very low.

The pro is doing it correctly. He uses the course rating from each set of tees and the slope rating. I'm not an expert on the exact methods of calculating handicaps, but I believe him and he is doing it correctly

We were not applying the adjustment for different tees at all, much less correctly.

The pro is likely calculating the players course handicap for a particular tee correctly using the slope of those but if he is not adjusting when multiple tees are played then he is missing a very important step.

So they are playing, basically, 3 sets of tees. White/gold/red.

 

Absolutely correct to NOT subtract strokes from guys moving up. They'll be pissed. But ADD strokes to guys moving back.

 

P1 plays red. Figure his cap for the day off the red slope. (12 e.g.) P2 plays yellow, figure his cap off the yellow slope. (14 e.g.) P3 plays white, figure his cap off the white slope. (4 e.g.)

 

In this example, red 64.5, yellow 67.5, white 71.5.

 

P1 gets his shots. P2 gets his shots PLUS (course rating yellow)-(course rating red). P3 gets his shots PLUS (course rating white) - (course rating red).

 

So, P1 gets his 12 shots playing red. P2 gets his 14 plus 3, so 17 shots playing yellow and P3 gets his 4 shots plus 7, so 11 shots playing white.

 

And now they can all play equitably.

 

BUT, the truly fairest, best way the cap system works is when all players play from the same tees.

 

At my course this is how I manipulate my cap. I'm going to shoot about the same scores. If I want my cap to go down, I play the back tees. If I want it to go up, I play our gold tees.

 

Next year I plan on playing the gold tees to fill my 10/20. Then moving back to the white and playing money games. I'm interested to see if I'm actually a 9 from the golds. If it works out that way, when I move back to the white were my cap fluctuates between 4 and 7 or 8, as a 9 I should be able to clean up a bit.

 

Or, I'll learn to play the gold tees better and end up with a 5,6, or 7 cap anyway.

 

It'll be a fun experiment.

good idea.. i think ill play this winter from the front tees and try to get up to a 8-10...then move back to play for $ .... wow .. is it any wonder we low singles start these threads bitching about how you cannot play a net game and stand a chance..always someone working an angle ... an angle that has noting to do with putting the ball in the hole

thats not really meant to be an attack..But come on ....doesnt that sound a bit ...off?

So they are playing, basically, 3 sets of tees. White/gold/red.

 

Absolutely correct to NOT subtract strokes from guys moving up. They'll be pissed. But ADD strokes to guys moving back.

 

P1 plays red. Figure his cap for the day off the red slope. (12 e.g.) P2 plays yellow, figure his cap off the yellow slope. (14 e.g.) P3 plays white, figure his cap off the white slope. (4 e.g.)

 

In this example, red 64.5, yellow 67.5, white 71.5.

 

P1 gets his shots. P2 gets his shots PLUS (course rating yellow)-(course rating red). P3 gets his shots PLUS (course rating white) - (course rating red).

 

So, P1 gets his 12 shots playing red. P2 gets his 14 plus 3, so 17 shots playing yellow and P3 gets his 4 shots plus 7, so 11 shots playing white.

 

And now they can all play equitably.

 

BUT, the truly fairest, best way the cap system works is when all players play from the same tees.

 

At my course this is how I manipulate my cap. I'm going to shoot about the same scores. If I want my cap to go down, I play the back tees. If I want it to go up, I play our gold tees.

 

Next year I plan on playing the gold tees to fill my 10/20. Then moving back to the white and playing money games. I'm interested to see if I'm actually a 9 from the golds. If it works out that way, when I move back to the white were my cap fluctuates between 4 and 7 or 8, as a 9 I should be able to clean up a bit.

 

Or, I'll learn to play the gold tees better and end up with a 5,6, or 7 cap anyway.

 

It'll be a fun experiment.

 

 

good idea.. i think ill play this winter from the front tees and try to get up to a 8-10...then move back to play for $ .... wow .. is it any wonder we low singles start these threads bitching about how you cannot play a net game and stand a chance..always someone working an angle ... an angle that has noting to do with putting the ball in the hole

 

thats not really meant to be an attack..But come on ....doesnt that sound a bit ...off?

I’ve said it here numerous times. It’s like legalized sandbagging.

68.6/117. Local junior college plays there. Only 6,400 yards. In the tournaments they host they normally only have one or two kids under par (72).

It’s just rated so wrong. And even par round is around a three differential.

It’s just rated so wrong. And even par round is around a three differential.

Of course par has absolutely nothing to do with rating or difficulty.