At what point are lessons a waste of money

tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
I was thinking about Tiger Woods comeback and I heard someowhere he got rid of his coaches. That got me thinking if s guy like Tiger Woods gets confused then at what point do no longer need a swing coach and a team?



I know for my kid I am seeing less and less new things they can learn. To be honest I am not sure they can teach much more technique or swing. I also don’t think this a coach problem either because I seen some very well known coaches and they really don’t have much to teach.





I want to be clear that they can and do help with tuneups which means putting a second eye on things if they go wrong. I can see how that is very valuable. We have been seeing increase I left coaches and for the most part they taught my daughter how to figure out when she is has something going wrong without seeing anyone. We even seen a coach that is probaly one the best coaches in the country and they all admit that there is not much they can teach. I am sure I am not alone in this issue.





I am thinking maybe seeking out more time on a track man or other technology makes more sense where we can just raw data on our own which will save a lot of money. Then just see a coach a few times a year for a tune up.
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Comments

  • BrianMcGBrianMcG Members Posts: 2,273 ✭✭
    edited Oct 17, 2018 #2
    I would say you don't need a coach after about the 13th major or so.



    In all seriousness though, you will get to the point that weekly or even monthly lessons isn't very worthwhile.



    Jack Nicklaus would see his coach at the beginning of every season and go over the basics like he had never played before. It worked pretty well with him.



    I would compare it to building a car. Once you get it running you just need to keep it tuned up. You don't need to change the transmission every time you change the oil.
    Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
    Bobby: I play because I love it.
    Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.
  • alfridayalfriday Members Posts: 472 ✭✭
    It sounds like your junior would benefit from a skills coach, rather than a swing coach. A good skills coach would assess the players current game--not swing--and then provide a plan to improve areas of weakness.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    I’ve never met a junior who doesn’t have a ton to learn
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    I've never met a junior who doesn't have a ton to learn




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can’t remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 875 ✭✭
    I would think that you need to see a swing coach when you need to work on your swing. That could be once/year for perhaps a couple sessions after a long layoff. Or if your junior just happens to lose their swing due to a growth spurt or something that it may be needed.



    Having said that and assuming that your junior already has a sound swing, a coach who teaches your junior how to play golf (scoring, course management, putting, etc...) seems far more valuable. Not sure on a frequency or age I would even start that though. My kid is 7YO going on 8 YO soon and we won't be seeing any coaches until he is 10 or 11.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    I've never met a junior who doesn't have a ton to learn




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can’t remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.




    To me it not about the juniors needing to learn that in itself is a never ending process.



    What I am referring to is at some point working on your swing is a waste of time. There is also a point where coaches just don’t know how to do a certain shot themselves. At a certain point your better off practicing then seeking instruction.



    Trackman gives good data and really help you dive deeper in what is happening. Any really good teacher will use a trackman and video tape in lessons. The value for a junior is it helps them learn what a good shot feels like not what they think it feels like. There not always the same thing.





    There also is other systems available for putting which is probaly what I am most interested in.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    I've never met a junior who doesn't have a ton to learn




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can’t remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.




    To me it not about the juniors needing to learn that in itself is a never ending process.



    What I am referring to is at some point working on your swing is a waste of time. There is also a point where coaches just don’t know how to do a certain shot themselves. At a certain point your better off practicing then seeking instruction.



    Trackman gives good data and really help you dive deeper in what is happening. Any really good teacher will use a trackman and video tape in lessons. The value for a junior is it helps them learn what a good shot feels like not what they think it feels like. There not always the same thing.





    There also is other systems available for putting which is probaly what I am most interested in.




    What shot wouldn’t the teacher know how to hit? If you think lessons are just about the golf swing you’re working with the wrong people and have a flawed perception of what a coach is supposed to offer. I’ve yet to meet a player at any level where working on their swing is a waste of time.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    I've never met a junior who doesn't have a ton to learn




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can't remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.




    Sorry, I was referring to OP's original message - "I am thinking maybe seeking out more time on a track man or other technology makes more sense where we can just raw data on our own which will save a lot of money. Then just see a coach a few times a year for a tune up."




    In most cases that would be a disaster. They’d have no clue how to use the data and understand cause and effect. And radar only shows what is happening not how it got there or why it’s happening.



    Kinda how having an mri machine wouldn’t help most parents/people not need a doctor
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    I've never met a junior who doesn't have a ton to learn




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can’t remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.




    To me it not about the juniors needing to learn that in itself is a never ending process.



    What I am referring to is at some point working on your swing is a waste of time. There is also a point where coaches just don’t know how to do a certain shot themselves. At a certain point your better off practicing then seeking instruction.



    Trackman gives good data and really help you dive deeper in what is happening. Any really good teacher will use a trackman and video tape in lessons. The value for a junior is it helps them learn what a good shot feels like not what they think it feels like. There not always the same thing.





    There also is other systems available for putting which is probaly what I am most interested in.




    What shot wouldn’t the teacher know how to hit? If you think lessons are just about the golf swing you’re working with the wrong people and have a flawed perception of what a coach is supposed to offer. I’ve yet to meet a player at any level where working on their swing is a waste of time.




    Here is the thing at a certain point the student is going to become better then the teacher in ability. That is a good thing and something very few students every do.



    When that happens the teacher needs to know when to step back. For instance most teachers will say avoid a flop shot it ruin your game. They are correct for most players that is true. So how did Phil Michelson become so good at it.



    The other truth is there is no such thing as a perfect swing. It is impossible to achieve. I think Tiger Woods comeback is a perfect example.

  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can’t remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.




    To me it not about the juniors needing to learn that in itself is a never ending process.



    What I am referring to is at some point working on your swing is a waste of time. There is also a point where coaches just don’t know how to do a certain shot themselves. At a certain point your better off practicing then seeking instruction.



    Trackman gives good data and really help you dive deeper in what is happening. Any really good teacher will use a trackman and video tape in lessons. The value for a junior is it helps them learn what a good shot feels like not what they think it feels like. There not always the same thing.





    There also is other systems available for putting which is probaly what I am most interested in.




    What shot wouldn’t the teacher know how to hit? If you think lessons are just about the golf swing you’re working with the wrong people and have a flawed perception of what a coach is supposed to offer. I’ve yet to meet a player at any level where working on their swing is a waste of time.




    Here is the thing at a certain point the student is going to become better then the teacher in ability. That is a good thing and something very few students every do.



    When that happens the teacher needs to know when to step back. For instance most teachers will say avoid a flop shot it ruin your game. They are correct for most players that is true. So how did Phil Michelson become so good at it.



    The other truth is there is no such thing as a perfect swing. It is impossible to achieve. I think Tiger Woods comeback is a perfect example.




    No good teacher is telling a player to avoid the flop shot. They’d teach them not only how but when to use it. Who cares about the ability of the student, it doesn’t mean that they know more about how to get better.



    You’re just making a bunch of straw man arguments. What your saying literally doesn’t happen. If you don’t want to get lessons that’s fine. But guidance from a competent coach will absolutely be the fastest and most lasting path to improvement.



    Btw I’ve yet to have a junior or college student I couldn’t beat.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    edited Oct 18, 2018 #12
    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    I've never met a junior who doesn't have a ton to learn




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can't remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.




    Sorry, I was referring to OP's original message - "I am thinking maybe seeking out more time on a track man or other technology makes more sense where we can just raw data on our own which will save a lot of money. Then just see a coach a few times a year for a tune up."




    In most cases that would be a disaster. They'd have no clue how to use the data and understand cause and effect. And radar only shows what is happening not how it got there or why it's happening.



    Kinda how having an mri machine wouldn't help most parents/people not need a doctor


    ?

    If they truly do not know how to analyze their swing I would tend to agree. But what if they can do that?



    One thing I have learned by going to high end coaches that charge $200-$300 an hour is they actually teach how to analyze the swing. It very very different then an average coach. They will flat out tell you that in order to improve you need to understand how to fix things when they go wrong. Once you know this you can begin to shape shots which is a game changer.



    Before going these instructors my daughter would hit a bad shot in practice and not really understand what happens. Now she will tell me almost instantly what she did wrong and when practicing actually correct the shot. We are also finding that the more feedback in clubs the better she gets.



    The average instructor out there will just tell you things to change and you really never learn why you go right or left or hit the ball fat and bring your club over the top.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:




    No good teacher is telling a player to avoid the flop shot. They'd teach them not only how but when to use it. Who cares about the ability of the student, it doesn't mean that they know more about how to get better.



    You're just making a bunch of straw man arguments. What your saying literally doesn't happen. If you don't want to get lessons that's fine. But guidance from a competent coach will absolutely be the fastest and most lasting path to improvement.



    Btw I've yet to have a junior or college student I couldn't beat.




    I don't believe any instructor can beat anyone other then a few skills game that in the context of things are meaningless. If you were truly that great you go on tour instead of teaching. You may be good but it hard to believe you could beat the top juniors or college players in tournaments.





    The flop shot is really just an example and was really the only common one I could think of other then say hitting the driver off the fairway with a major hook like Bubba. I am talking about shots where 99% of the people out there can't do properly and that includes instructors.
  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 157 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    No good teacher is telling a player to avoid the flop shot. They'd teach them not only how but when to use it. Who cares about the ability of the student, it doesn't mean that they know more about how to get better.



    You're just making a bunch of straw man arguments. What your saying literally doesn't happen. If you don't want to get lessons that's fine. But guidance from a competent coach will absolutely be the fastest and most lasting path to improvement.



    Btw I've yet to have a junior or college student I couldn't beat.




    I don't believe any instructor can beat anyone other then a few skills game that in the context of things are meaningless. If you were truly that great you go on tour instead of teaching. You may be good but it hard to believe you could beat the top juniors or college players in tournaments.





    The flop shot is really just an example and was really the only common one I could think of other then say hitting the driver off the fairway with a major hook like Bubba. I am talking about shots where 99% of the people out there can't do properly and that includes instructors.




    Are you talking about Juniors or Professional golfers? All your examples are about Pro on the tour - and yes if any of our kids ends up there, they do not need a coach to teach them the flop shot or when to use but I think most Pros have a swing coach ( this is the first time Tiger does not have swing coach) to help them with tune ups and and marginal improvement. I would imagine Pros are looking for that extra 5mph in swing speed, or a little more consistency when they move away from their stock shot etc..



    Now regarding a Junior.. IMO, at least for my 11 yr old, he needs a coach, teacher, mentor for the foreseeable future ( it does not all have to be about path, club face, impact position etc. When full swing, wedge and putting is all working (which it never is, there is always something) - they work on different shot, draws, fades, knock downs, flops, under the trees, over the trees, driver of the deck, etc..when to use what, how to to play the game.



    My point being.. pro's and teachers are constantly finding ways to improve and learn more, make the swing more efficient, consistent, faster etc. To believe that your junior has learnt it all implies she has reached her potential .. which we all know she not. To the $300 coach to told you that he does not know what he can teach...ask him to increase her swing speed by 10 mph?



    I did not mean this to be a rant but I also think you need to push your teacher to teach more. I changed a teacher just cause I felt, he did not push my junior enough.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,067 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:


    No good teacher is telling a player to avoid the flop shot. They'd teach them not only how but when to use it. Who cares about the ability of the student, it doesn't mean that they know more about how to get better.



    You're just making a bunch of straw man arguments. What your saying literally doesn't happen. If you don't want to get lessons that's fine. But guidance from a competent coach will absolutely be the fastest and most lasting path to improvement.



    Btw I've yet to have a junior or college student I couldn't beat.




    I don't believe any instructor can beat anyone other then a few skills game that in the context of things are meaningless. If you were truly that great you go on tour instead of teaching. You may be good but it hard to believe you could beat the top juniors or college players in tournaments.





    The flop shot is really just an example and was really the only common one I could think of other then say hitting the driver off the fairway with a major hook like Bubba. I am talking about shots where 99% of the people out there can't do properly and that includes instructors.




    A coach doesn't need to need to be good at the game to teach someone how to be play or be good at the game. Bill Belicheck, Nick Saban, Vince Lombardi, Tommy Lasorda, Red Aurebach, and many other coaches were better teachers than they ever were players.
  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:




    The average instructor out there will just tell you things to change and you really never learn why you go right or left or hit the ball fat and bring your club over the top.




    It’s on you to get the info from the instructor that you need. If I’ve hired an instructor for an hour, I’m getting exactly what I think I need out of it. If I wanna learn a flop shot, I’m gonna ask for it. If I need to understand why I’m pulling shots, I’m gonna ask. If they have given me drills to correct a flaw, I will absolutely ask WHY that helps, and what the next steps are. If I just want them to take a look at my swing and polish it a little, then that’s what I ask for.



    But I don’t go into a single lesson anymore, for myself or my child, without clear expectations. And before I leave we discuss what was accomplished, and how to work on it at home.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:




    Agree that juniors have a ton to learn but do they need to be on trackman or flightscope to learn? Is their time better spent playing?




    Who said anything about needing to be on a launch monitor? I think having a parent rent time on a launch monitor would be far more harmful than positive. Other than clubfitting I can't remember the last time I put a junior on a launch monitor and let them see a single number.




    Sorry, I was referring to OP's original message - "I am thinking maybe seeking out more time on a track man or other technology makes more sense where we can just raw data on our own which will save a lot of money. Then just see a coach a few times a year for a tune up."




    In most cases that would be a disaster. They'd have no clue how to use the data and understand cause and effect. And radar only shows what is happening not how it got there or why it's happening.



    Kinda how having an mri machine wouldn't help most parents/people not need a doctor


    ?

    If they truly do not know how to analyze their swing I would tend to agree. But what if they can do that?



    One thing I have learned by going to high end coaches that charge $200-$300 an hour is they actually teach how to analyze the swing. It very very different then an average coach. They will flat out tell you that in order to improve you need to understand how to fix things when they go wrong. Once you know this you can begin to shape shots which is a game changer.



    Before going these instructors my daughter would hit a bad shot in practice and not really understand what happens. Now she will tell me almost instantly what she did wrong and when practicing actually correct the shot. We are also finding that the more feedback in clubs the better she gets.



    The average instructor out there will just tell you things to change and you really never learn why you go right or left or hit the ball fat and bring your club over the top.




    There no player that I know that knows enough to self analyze and not be heavily biased. Your young daughter absolutely can’t analyze her swing at the level you believe. And launch monitors just tel you what is happening. It’s doesnt analyze anything. The how is more important than the want if you want to play consistently at a high level
  • Golfingdawg19Golfingdawg19 Members Posts: 356 ✭✭
    The big thing with lessons is you have to practice what the instructor tells you to work on before going back. If you don't, then the next lesson is going to be the same as the last one. Its like building blocks. You have to build the foundation first and then move upwards. If you don't get the basics down, then every lesson is about going back to the core fundamentals. Depending on how much your child practices, it could be two weeks or months before they need to go back.
  • hack2489hack2489 Members Posts: 214
    This:



    "...to self analyze and not be heavily biased."



    Reminds me of:



    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."



    Or, in golfing terms:



    "I know you think you understand what you thought you felt but I'm not sure you realize that what caused what you saw is not what you feel"



    Or, as it's often put..



    "Feel ain't real"

  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:




    No good teacher is telling a player to avoid the flop shot. They'd teach them not only how but when to use it. Who cares about the ability of the student, it doesn't mean that they know more about how to get better.



    You're just making a bunch of straw man arguments. What your saying literally doesn't happen. If you don't want to get lessons that's fine. But guidance from a competent coach will absolutely be the fastest and most lasting path to improvement.



    Btw I've yet to have a junior or college student I couldn't beat.




    I don't believe any instructor can beat anyone other then a few skills game that in the context of things are meaningless. If you were truly that great you go on tour instead of teaching. You may be good but it hard to believe you could beat the top juniors or college players in tournaments.





    The flop shot is really just an example and was really the only common one I could think of other then say hitting the driver off the fairway with a major hook like Bubba. I am talking about shots where 99% of the people out there can't do properly and that includes instructors.




    Feel free to ask them. I shot a course record last year and then broke it 3 weeks later. I think you have no idea how good you have to be to play on tour and how poor you have to be before you get there. Put the 20th ranked junior in the country in a mini tour event and he gets steam rolled by guys who will never make it.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    edited Oct 18, 2018 #21
    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.






    This is not about Iteach at all. He is not really giving me advice when he claims he can beat most top kids and college players. He is including players who probably within a few years will win a major tournament and become Top PGA players. That is a bold statement!!! It also irrelevant to question, He is also a instructor so I do not see how he would never say you don't need him. I never met an instructor who thinks that either.



    With every coach I see there is progress and then it levels off and starts to seem like you paying for practice more then actual learning.At first you seek out better and better instructors. I can see at a certain point where the instructors are not really helping. The other issue I see is every instructor what to change a swing and has a different opinion on what works and doesn't. If your paying $200-$300 and hour your need to see results quickly.



    I bring up Tiger Woods as an example because he was the greatest player and he talked to the greatest instructors the world ever seen and guess what he got confused and didn't win for years. They tried to change his swing after winning 13 majors? He even said this himself. He finally fired all the instructors and basically got success again.



    I can see how this happens and at certain point you want to forget about lessons and play golf.
  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.




    I do find it funny when people post info on a forum looking for guidance or insight, and just categorically refute what is offered.



    Tiger, are you seeking help, or do you just want to prove you are correct?
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,067 ✭✭
    edited Oct 18, 2018 #23
    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.






    This is not about Iteach at all. He is not really giving me advice when he claims he can beat most top kids and college players. He is including players who probably within a few years will win a major tournament and become Top PGA players. That is a bold statement!!! It also irrelevant to question, He is also a instructor so I do not see how he would never say you don't need him. I never met an instructor who thinks that either.



    With every coach I see there is progress and then it levels off and starts to seem like you paying for practice more then actual learning.At first you seek out better and better instructors. I can see at a certain point where the instructors are not really helping. The other issue I see is every instructor what to change a swing and has a different opinion on what works and doesn't. If your paying $200-$300 and hour your need to see results quickly.



    I bring up Tiger Woods as an example because he was the greatest player and he talked to the greatest instructors the world ever seen and guess what he got confused and didn't win for years. They tried to change his swing after winning 13 majors? He even said this himself. He finally fired all the instructors and basically got success again.



    I can see how this happens and at certain point you want to forget about lessons and play golf.




    I have never met an instructor that has wanted to change my son's swing. They want to make a tweak here and there and that is it. That is because while he has some flaws that need tweaking, he has a really good swing and is a good ball striker. I paid an instructor, a really good one $150.00 an hour and he didn't want to change his swing, just tweak.



    Every instructor wanted to change my daughter's swing because, quite honestly, when she was younger it was absolutely terrible. She did learn how to score with it though. I paid the same instructor $150 an hour and he wanted to change her swing.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭

    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.






    This is not about Iteach at all. He is not really giving me advice when he claims he can beat most top kids and college players. He is including players who probably within a few years will win a major tournament and become Top PGA players. That is a bold statement!!! It also irrelevant to question, He is also a instructor so I do not see how he would never say you don't need him. I never met an instructor who thinks that either.



    With every coach I see there is progress and then it levels off and starts to seem like you paying for practice more then actual learning.At first you seek out better and better instructors. I can see at a certain point where the instructors are not really helping. The other issue I see is every instructor what to change a swing and has a different opinion on what works and doesn't. If your paying $200-$300 and hour your need to see results quickly.



    I bring up Tiger Woods as an example because he was the greatest player and he talked to the greatest instructors the world ever seen and guess what he got confused and didn't win for years. They tried to change his swing after winning 13 majors? He even said this himself. He finally fired all the instructors and basically got success again.



    I can see how this happens and at certain point you want to forget about lessons and play golf.




    I have never met an instructor that has wanted to change my son's swing. They want to make a tweak here and there and that is it. That is because while he has some flaws that need tweaking, he has a really good swing and is a good ball striker. I paid an instructor, a really good one $150.00 an hour and he didn't want to change his swing, just tweak.



    Every instructor wanted to change my daughter's swing because, quite honestly, when she was younger it was absolutely terrible. She did learn how to score with it though. I paid the same instructor $150 an hour and he wanted to change her swing.




    It is the tweaks here and there that cause issues. Every instructor has different tweaks and at some point they contradict each other and confuse.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,067 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:


    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.






    This is not about Iteach at all. He is not really giving me advice when he claims he can beat most top kids and college players. He is including players who probably within a few years will win a major tournament and become Top PGA players. That is a bold statement!!! It also irrelevant to question, He is also a instructor so I do not see how he would never say you don't need him. I never met an instructor who thinks that either.



    With every coach I see there is progress and then it levels off and starts to seem like you paying for practice more then actual learning.At first you seek out better and better instructors. I can see at a certain point where the instructors are not really helping. The other issue I see is every instructor what to change a swing and has a different opinion on what works and doesn't. If your paying $200-$300 and hour your need to see results quickly.



    I bring up Tiger Woods as an example because he was the greatest player and he talked to the greatest instructors the world ever seen and guess what he got confused and didn't win for years. They tried to change his swing after winning 13 majors? He even said this himself. He finally fired all the instructors and basically got success again.



    I can see how this happens and at certain point you want to forget about lessons and play golf.




    I have never met an instructor that has wanted to change my son's swing. They want to make a tweak here and there and that is it. That is because while he has some flaws that need tweaking, he has a really good swing and is a good ball striker. I paid an instructor, a really good one $150.00 an hour and he didn't want to change his swing, just tweak.



    Every instructor wanted to change my daughter's swing because, quite honestly, when she was younger it was absolutely terrible. She did learn how to score with it though. I paid the same instructor $150 an hour and he wanted to change her swing.




    It is the tweaks here and there that cause issues. Every instructor has different tweaks and at some point they contradict each other and confuse.




    Then she isn't ready for lessons.
  • mikpgamikpga www.mikedeitersgolf.com Members Posts: 7,368 ✭✭
    when the student doesn’t want to learn and/or doesn’t want to practice is the point when lessons become useless...
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    BertGA wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.




    I do find it funny when people post info on a forum looking for guidance or insight, and just categorically refute what is offered.



    Tiger, are you seeking help, or do you just want to prove you are correct?




    He not offering advice at all. Everyone has limitations when teaching people and some players. All instructors have limitations and the best ones will not be afraid to tell you at all.



    I am at point with my kids that I can either stick with the coaches or look elsewhere to attempt to learn more. I am afraid that based on the coaches I seen there is not much more to learn out there.We seen a few big name coaches with players who are winning PGA and LPGA tournaments and given good advice. But truthfully sometimes they struggle to find something wrong and will then tweak something one week and then tweak it back the next week. I feel like an idiot for dumping spending money on lessons when that happens.



    When you start to see that you start to think instruction has limitations too and cutting down lesson to a few times a year may actually be better then on a regular basis.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,067 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    BertGA wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.




    I do find it funny when people post info on a forum looking for guidance or insight, and just categorically refute what is offered.



    Tiger, are you seeking help, or do you just want to prove you are correct?




    He not offering advice at all. Everyone has limitations when teaching people and some players. All instructors have limitations and the best ones will not be afraid to tell you at all.



    I am at point with my kids that I can either stick with the coaches or look elsewhere to attempt to learn more. I am afraid that based on the coaches I seen there is not much more to learn out there.We seen a few big name coaches with players who are winning PGA and LPGA tournaments and given good advice. But truthfully sometimes they struggle to find something wrong and will then tweak something one week and then tweak it back the next week. I feel like an idiot for dumping spending money on lessons when that happens.



    When you start to see that you start to think instruction has limitations too and cutting down lesson to a few times a year may actually be better then on a regular basis.




    What kind of scores is she shooting? It may not be swing at all.
  • AtraynAtrayn ClubWRX Posts: 2,053 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    BertGA wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.




    I do find it funny when people post info on a forum looking for guidance or insight, and just categorically refute what is offered.



    Tiger, are you seeking help, or do you just want to prove you are correct?




    He not offering advice at all. Everyone has limitations when teaching people and some players. All instructors have limitations and the best ones will not be afraid to tell you at all.



    I am at point with my kids that I can either stick with the coaches or look elsewhere to attempt to learn more. I am afraid that based on the coaches I seen there is not much more to learn out there.We seen a few big name coaches with players who are winning PGA and LPGA tournaments and given good advice. But truthfully sometimes they struggle to find something wrong and will then tweak something one week and then tweak it back the next week. I feel like an idiot for dumping spending money on lessons when that happens.



    When you start to see that you start to think instruction has limitations too and cutting down lesson to a few times a year may actually be better then on a regular basis.




    With this statement it appears like your PGA Tour dreams for your kids will always be just that....
    "Someday, it may even be possible to construct some kind of machine
    that will swing a golf club as well as it can possibly be done." "That is probably as close to
    the perfect swing as it would be possible for human beings to get." Ben Hogan 1965 SI

    2017 Taylormade M2 9.5 (set at 10.5) w/ Diamana S+ Blueboard 60 S
    2010 Tour Edge Exotics XCG3 3W w/Fujikura Motore S 15 deg
    2014 Taylormade SLDR S HL 3W 17deg Fujikura Speeder 65 R, shortened
    2009 Callaway Xforged 3i w/ KBS tour S
    2012 Cobra Amp Forged 4-GW w/ KBS tour S
    2013 Miura forged 54 & 58 wedges - w/ DG Tour issue S
    Ping Cadence Rustler Traditional putter
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    edited Oct 18, 2018 #30

    tiger1873 wrote:

    BertGA wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.




    I do find it funny when people post info on a forum looking for guidance or insight, and just categorically refute what is offered.



    Tiger, are you seeking help, or do you just want to prove you are correct?




    He not offering advice at all. Everyone has limitations when teaching people and some players. All instructors have limitations and the best ones will not be afraid to tell you at all.



    I am at point with my kids that I can either stick with the coaches or look elsewhere to attempt to learn more. I am afraid that based on the coaches I seen there is not much more to learn out there.We seen a few big name coaches with players who are winning PGA and LPGA tournaments and given good advice. But truthfully sometimes they struggle to find something wrong and will then tweak something one week and then tweak it back the next week. I feel like an idiot for dumping spending money on lessons when that happens.



    When you start to see that you start to think instruction has limitations too and cutting down lesson to a few times a year may actually be better then on a regular basis.




    What kind of scores is she shooting? It may not be swing at all.




    Shoots in the 80's easily sometimes low 70's if not under much pressure. It's not the swing for sure holding her back. I been told that by a lot people who know a lot more then me that it's a very natural swing and don't change a thing. She easily drives well over 200 yards and is only 11. She is also reasonably accurate on her irons and very constant. Her issue is mostly short game. She needs to get better on up and down to be honest more importantly nail more 10-15 foot putts for birdies which would solve both problems. She actually very good putter what is agonizing is most of those 10-15 foot putts are tap ins which can add a lot points to a round. If she figures out her short game she will unstoppable.



    Not sure if I need to add a short game specialist or just let her practice more and be patient. This is the area where I see the most intructors struggle with and where technology may help more then technique.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,721 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:


    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:


    Y'all railing on iTeach for saying what you don't want to hear but he's developing a great cadre of junior players and at least one PGA tour player that I know of that was top 20 at the PGA championship and top 30 at the Open. He's giving you great feedback. Listen.






    This is not about Iteach at all. He is not really giving me advice when he claims he can beat most top kids and college players. He is including players who probably within a few years will win a major tournament and become Top PGA players. That is a bold statement!!! It also irrelevant to question, He is also a instructor so I do not see how he would never say you don't need him. I never met an instructor who thinks that either.



    With every coach I see there is progress and then it levels off and starts to seem like you paying for practice more then actual learning.At first you seek out better and better instructors. I can see at a certain point where the instructors are not really helping. The other issue I see is every instructor what to change a swing and has a different opinion on what works and doesn't. If your paying $200-$300 and hour your need to see results quickly.



    I bring up Tiger Woods as an example because he was the greatest player and he talked to the greatest instructors the world ever seen and guess what he got confused and didn't win for years. They tried to change his swing after winning 13 majors? He even said this himself. He finally fired all the instructors and basically got success again.



    I can see how this happens and at certain point you want to forget about lessons and play golf.




    I have never met an instructor that has wanted to change my son's swing. They want to make a tweak here and there and that is it. That is because while he has some flaws that need tweaking, he has a really good swing and is a good ball striker. I paid an instructor, a really good one $150.00 an hour and he didn't want to change his swing, just tweak.



    Every instructor wanted to change my daughter's swing because, quite honestly, when she was younger it was absolutely terrible. She did learn how to score with it though. I paid the same instructor $150 an hour and he wanted to change her swing.




    It is the tweaks here and there that cause issues. Every instructor has different tweaks and at some point they contradict each other and confuse.




    The only reason that’s an issue is because you’re going to a bunch of different instructors. Student should be all in and be on board. And if they can’t find someone they can be with. If you only have one voice in your head there can’t be contradictory thoughts.



    Can you post your daughters swing? Based on results I can’t imagine any instructor saying he can’t teach her much. If your paying $200-300 an hour and the teacher tells you he can’t teach much to a girl who frankly isn’t shooting very good scores you’re being ripped off
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