At what point are lessons a waste of money

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Comments

  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,850 ClubWRX
    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:


    I could totally see that happening especially if the player is young. With Mayson's stable of players I think you need to be really...really...really good to get his time on a consistent basis. I'm talking high level D1 players and LPGA/PGA pros. I heard this from the asst. coach at UCLA- If you can't get a response from your coach within 24 hours then move on.



    RB (who is 10 yrs old) just saw Mayson on Sunday and that was after several months of coaxing and pulling some strings with friends of friends who know Mayson personally. I understand the lesson was very good and hopefully they will be able to work together on somewhat of a consistent basis for years to come.




    Lets just be clear, a $500 / hr coach isn't going to teach a 10 year old anything different than a $60 / hr coach. The benefit comes down the line when they are older.




    Hate to say it but no one out there is probably worth $500 even for an PGA pro. The reason a famous PGA pro would pay as much as they do is for privacy and rental of the facility and team that goes along with the steep rate.



    I been a few of these facilities and there a way to practice with no distractions.




    Most of the guys mentioned in this thread aren't commanding $500/hr. More like $250-$300. Define worth.



    I'm not sure what pga pros pay their instructor, but for most of them $500/hr is not much at all especially if they are relevant from week to week.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:


    I could totally see that happening especially if the player is young. With Mayson's stable of players I think you need to be really...really...really good to get his time on a consistent basis. I'm talking high level D1 players and LPGA/PGA pros. I heard this from the asst. coach at UCLA- If you can't get a response from your coach within 24 hours then move on.



    RB (who is 10 yrs old) just saw Mayson on Sunday and that was after several months of coaxing and pulling some strings with friends of friends who know Mayson personally. I understand the lesson was very good and hopefully they will be able to work together on somewhat of a consistent basis for years to come.




    Lets just be clear, a $500 / hr coach isn't going to teach a 10 year old anything different than a $60 / hr coach. The benefit comes down the line when they are older.




    Hate to say it but no one out there is probably worth $500 even for an PGA pro. The reason a famous PGA pro would pay as much as they do is for privacy and rental of the facility and team that goes along with the steep rate.



    I been a few of these facilities and there a way to practice with no distractions.




    They don’t pay that for facility or privacy. They can find that easily for free. PGA Tour players pay coaches a good sum of money because they make exponentially more than the coach. If paying a coach $100,000 leads to them making $5,000,000 than it was a great investment. They value the coaches time. I have my own opinions on how lessons are priced but at the end of the day the market decides what you’re worth




    All the big name instructors have very private facilities or ranches I know for a fact hank Haney has what he calls a golf ranch in Texas. That is really a private facility he teaches top players in. Mere mortals like us will never get a glimpse of it and that is how it supposed to be. Add up all the equipment and cost to mainting his teaching facility it is not going to be cheap. If your a top golfer in the world 17k or whatever he changes a day is cheap.



    Do really think tiger woods can practice at with anyone else around. Ok maybe other PGA players but the privacy and security a person like that needs is expensive. They need private secure facilities in general for everything they do.
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,715 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:


    I could totally see that happening especially if the player is young. With Mayson's stable of players I think you need to be really...really...really good to get his time on a consistent basis. I'm talking high level D1 players and LPGA/PGA pros. I heard this from the asst. coach at UCLA- If you can't get a response from your coach within 24 hours then move on.



    RB (who is 10 yrs old) just saw Mayson on Sunday and that was after several months of coaxing and pulling some strings with friends of friends who know Mayson personally. I understand the lesson was very good and hopefully they will be able to work together on somewhat of a consistent basis for years to come.




    Lets just be clear, a $500 / hr coach isn't going to teach a 10 year old anything different than a $60 / hr coach. The benefit comes down the line when they are older.




    Hate to say it but no one out there is probably worth $500 even for an PGA pro. The reason a famous PGA pro would pay as much as they do is for privacy and rental of the facility and team that goes along with the steep rate.



    I been a few of these facilities and there a way to practice with no distractions.




    They don’t pay that for facility or privacy. They can find that easily for free. PGA Tour players pay coaches a good sum of money because they make exponentially more than the coach. If paying a coach $100,000 leads to them making $5,000,000 than it was a great investment. They value the coaches time. I have my own opinions on how lessons are priced but at the end of the day the market decides what you’re worth




    All the big name instructors have very private facilities or ranches I know for a fact hank Haney has what he calls a golf ranch in Texas. That is really a private facility he teaches top players in. Mere mortals like us will never get a glimpse of it and that is how it supposed to be. Add up all the equipment and cost to mainting his teaching facility it is not going to be cheap. If your a top golfer in the world 17k or whatever he changes a day is cheap.



    Do really think tiger woods can practice at with anyone else around. Ok maybe other PGA players but the privacy and security a person like that needs is expensive. They need private secure facilities in general for everything they do.




    There’s one person, maybe, and that’s Tiger and he goes plenty of public places without a massive security team. Back of TPC is Tour players only and free. Btw the general public absolutely can go to Haney’s ranch (and there’s 4 of them). It’s not some top secret place.



    You do realize I’m around PGA Tour Players every week and have been teaching on tour for a decade? Plenty of PGA Tour players take lessons and will, gasp, practice at public facilities.
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,033 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:

    leezer99 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:


    I could totally see that happening especially if the player is young. With Mayson's stable of players I think you need to be really...really...really good to get his time on a consistent basis. I'm talking high level D1 players and LPGA/PGA pros. I heard this from the asst. coach at UCLA- If you can't get a response from your coach within 24 hours then move on.



    RB (who is 10 yrs old) just saw Mayson on Sunday and that was after several months of coaxing and pulling some strings with friends of friends who know Mayson personally. I understand the lesson was very good and hopefully they will be able to work together on somewhat of a consistent basis for years to come.




    Lets just be clear, a $500 / hr coach isn't going to teach a 10 year old anything different than a $60 / hr coach. The benefit comes down the line when they are older.




    Hate to say it but no one out there is probably worth $500 even for an PGA pro. The reason a famous PGA pro would pay as much as they do is for privacy and rental of the facility and team that goes along with the steep rate.



    I been a few of these facilities and there a way to practice with no distractions.




    They don't pay that for facility or privacy. They can find that easily for free. PGA Tour players pay coaches a good sum of money because they make exponentially more than the coach. If paying a coach $100,000 leads to them making $5,000,000 than it was a great investment. They value the coaches time. I have my own opinions on how lessons are priced but at the end of the day the market decides what you're worth




    All the big name instructors have very private facilities or ranches I know for a fact hank Haney has what he calls a golf ranch in Texas. That is really a private facility he teaches top players in. Mere mortals like us will never get a glimpse of it and that is how it supposed to be. Add up all the equipment and cost to mainting his teaching facility it is not going to be cheap. If your a top golfer in the world 17k or whatever he changes a day is cheap.



    Do really think tiger woods can practice at with anyone else around. Ok maybe other PGA players but the privacy and security a person like that needs is expensive. They need private secure facilities in general for everything they do.




    Tiger has four holes in his backyard to practice on. I think I remember hearing that each of the bunkers has different sand from each of the big venues he typically plays.



    6NTSLYl.jpg

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,033 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:




    There's one person, maybe, and that's Tiger and he goes plenty of public places without a massive security team. Back of TPC is Tour players only and free. Btw the general public absolutely can go to Haney's ranch (and there's 4 of them). It's not some top secret place.



    You do realize I'm around PGA Tour Players every week and have been teaching on tour for a decade? Plenty of PGA Tour players take lessons and will, gasp, practice at public facilities.




    Yep, my son hits shots in the same place as major champions, Ryder Cup members, etc. aiming at the same dumb targets at a city course. Can anyone identify this guy from 2009?



    3yAd2JB.jpg

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:








    There's one person, maybe, and that's Tiger and he goes plenty of public places without a massive security team. Back of TPC is Tour players only and free. Btw the general public absolutely can go to Haney's ranch (and there's 4 of them). It's not some top secret place.



    You do realize I'm around PGA Tour Players every week and have been teaching on tour for a decade? Plenty of PGA Tour players take lessons and will, gasp, practice at public facilities.




    Like I said I just mentioned Haneys place he's not as high regarded as we was 10 or 20 years ago so now he had to open it up probably to keep the lights on. I've been to a few of these places the top teachers teach and usually there very very private and have a lot camera's with security guards driving around.



    Again 99% of the instructors are not these places and I guarantee you that most do not charge above $200-$250 and hour and for juniors it is a lot less. The higher prices are because they have a whole team working and facilities at their disposal. PGA players are cheap just like everyone else and can't afford to throw money away.



    Tiger is very wealthy and if you are like him you have security. I guarantee you he has security around him even though you don't see it. All people very wealthy and famous people have the same thing. Most PGA players are not like this but a few are. I used to know the guy who ran a special unit at the LAPD and they interact with celebrities and there security all the time.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    edited Feb 5, 2019 9:21pm #68
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,033 ✭✭

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,342 ✭✭
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,715 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    iteachgolf wrote:








    There's one person, maybe, and that's Tiger and he goes plenty of public places without a massive security team. Back of TPC is Tour players only and free. Btw the general public absolutely can go to Haney's ranch (and there's 4 of them). It's not some top secret place.



    You do realize I'm around PGA Tour Players every week and have been teaching on tour for a decade? Plenty of PGA Tour players take lessons and will, gasp, practice at public facilities.




    Like I said I just mentioned Haneys place he's not as high regarded as we was 10 or 20 years ago so now he had to open it up probably to keep the lights on. I've been to a few of these places the top teachers teach and usually there very very private and have a lot camera's with security guards driving around.



    Again 99% of the instructors are not these places and I guarantee you that most do not charge above $200-$250 and hour and for juniors it is a lot less. The higher prices are because they have a whole team working and facilities at their disposal. PGA players are cheap just like everyone else and can't afford to throw money away.



    Tiger is very wealthy and if you are like him you have security. I guarantee you he has security around him even though you don't see it. All people very wealthy and famous people have the same thing. Most PGA players are not like this but a few are. I used to know the guy who ran a special unit at the LAPD and they interact with celebrities and there security all the time.




    Plenty of Tour players throwing away money in various ways. Haney’s Ranch has been open to the public and has a 9 hole executive course on it that’s been a open to the public since before he was working with Tiger. Many of the top teachers are teaching at places that are open to the public. Only a few of the top 20 instructors on GD list are at private facilities and all of them can be booked by non members. Only 1 in the top 10 is at a private facility, and he teaches non members all the time.



    Their high prices are because the market dictates it. They are making money off of their staff instructors, not subsidizing their pay with their own lesson fees. You have no idea how this works
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,850 ClubWRX
    tiger1873 wrote:


    If you don't believe Tiger has a need for security



    http://www.espn.com/...0407/tigerwoods





    https://radaronline....ecurity-detail/




    Nobody cares about security. I thought we are talking about junior lessons and cost/benefit? Sorry if I'm wrong.
  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 299 ✭✭
    edited Feb 10, 2019 7:06am #73
    kekoa wrote:


    This is only my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.



    At 11, I don't care how good your daughter is or what others say about her swing. I would start looking for a qualified swing coach that your daughter likes, gets along with, and can take instruction from. Things may be going well for her now, but it is very common for juniors and pro's alike to literally lose it over night. I believe with some regular instruction, the odds of this happening are decreased significantly. And if things do go wrong, it should be a lot easier for the coach to fix since they would know the junior and his/her flaws already. If you look at all of the top junior in the world, they are all taking lessons regularly. Sometimes they may be working on a minor tweak and other times they coach may just be watching them hit balls. Either way, there is value.



    My son is only 8 right now and as I have said before, lessons ARE not worth the money right now. He competes very well against the best 8 Y/O's RIGHT NOW with no lessons. When he turns 11 or 12, you can bet I will get him the best instructor I can afford, but only if my son shows that he is committed to taking his game to the next level. A lot of kids around us are taking lessons from very expensive instructors ($200-350/hr) and they say it's all worth it even though it appears as though the child's scores aren't improving at all.



    For juniors, I think parents can run into a real road block when they want to see immediate results when starting with an instructor. If that is the case, you are setting yourself up for huge disappointment.




    I agree with this. If you are a parent/relative/close family friend that knows the golf swing well enough to teach some fundamental things about the game (e.g., posture, alignment, release, swing plane, correct chipping motion...), there is probably only a need for a handful of lessons until they reach a certain age just to get a second opinion that things are on the right track. But, at a certain point, if you are not a trained teacher, you can probably only teach so much. It may be that your child needs to hear a similar lesson from someone else. It may be that you just don’t know what it takes to accomplish the positions you’re trying to create. But all elite juniors and those striving to get to that level will benefit more with a coach at a certain point, IMO. I think that age varies for every junior and their level of ability.



    As far as costs - you can’t place what you perceive to be the value of the lesson. Market dictates how much a teacher can/will charge. You can’t say X isn’t worth $250-$500 an hour. It could well be that Y is worth more than $80 an hour, but is just unknown and can’t get similar clientele. It’s the service industry. I know attorneys that charge $1500 an hour to do work that can be done at $200 an hour. But the market is more than happy to pay for the $1500/hour attorney so that’s what his services are worth.



    So before deciding whether lessons are a waste of money, I would ask yourself (a) is your child maximizing his distance and consistency and (b) is your child’s scoring mirroring his ball striking ability? If the answer to either (a) or (b) is no, find a coach or be content.
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