Grooveless wedge VS. grooved wedge test

Wow. I actually didn’t expect the results to be so different. Crazy.

I guess the makers of these things are lying con artists saying they spin just as much.

It’s worth a few minutes to watch it. It’s not a long video.

Pretty cool little video. I have a 60° that has a knurled face (about the most illegal thing about me) and it will tear the urethane off the ball. Even to the point I have put it on a green and it has so much spin that it walked back off the green 6 feet. So there are ways to make spin illegally.

I don't even know what to say about that. Did the makers just hope people wouldn't test these on a launch monitor?

What was interesting is that without the lunch monitor the pro wouldn’t have guessed it was nearly so different. The fact that the grooveless wedge hit higher and landed softer shows that if a person is using a 2 piece distance ball they may not see a difference at all in playability. I’m not advocating a grooveless club at all, just saying that maybe all this spin matters less than advertised...

Rick should have done it on a wet day and it would have been eye popping. We did the same thing not so long ago just for fun and off wet grass it's virtually impossible to control a 60-80 yard wedge shot. The lack of control is startling when the face and ball are wet.

Eh. Just watched the video and would like him to show the impact on the face and impact conditions like AoA and dynamic loft when hitting off the mats.

Pretty sure Wishon has said grooves/no grooves really only makes a difference out of rough or wet conditions. The grooves channel debris primarily.

EDIT: Found the post http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/917941-spin-without-grooves-in-the-club-face/#entry7965859

This "test" is more than biased. Watch it a second time and take an exact look on how he hits his grooved clubs and how very different it is with the grooveless. It can be quite clearly seen in the pitching part (no divots with grooves, craters with grooveless and hitting ground before ball) and indoors (take a close look at the balls impact on the screen... much, much higher with grooveless -> less compression and friction). And how could grooves in any way have any influence on a sound bunkershot, where the ball should never make contact with the club face? Clean face and grooves with the grooved club but wet and dirty with grooveless, how can this be a comparsion?

I'm not advocating grooveless clubs, even though I'm playing a set myself and am very pleased with them. I never had problems stopping a ball with them, even on rainy days (just wipe with a towel before you hit). Rough is ofcourse a different beast, but even tour pros with new wedges and perfectly clean grooves struggle in this condition. Saying the manufacturer is a liar is also a very bold statement. I know him, was there several times and never met someone in golf-industry that honest. He will tell you, that you don't need any new clubs if he sees that there will be no benefit with a different set.. and that may be after a 4 hour fitting session free of charge. He will not push you to buy or even try out a specific club (btw. he has about the same amount of grooved clubs as grooveless in his portfolio) plus you can order clubs for testing at any time without a risk.

Btw. Shawn Clement did a test in 2016 and said he could not see any difference in spin, even though he didn't test it with trackman:

I find it quite "questionable" and pretty unfair from a "pro" like Rick Shiels to put such an obviously biased and manipulated (intentionaly or not) "test" on youtube. I just don't understand the intention.

Eh. Just watched the video and would like him to show the impact on the face and impact conditions like AoA and dynamic loft when hitting off the mats.

 

Pretty sure Wishon has said grooves/no grooves really only makes a difference out of rough or wet conditions. The grooves channel debris primarily.

 

EDIT: Found the post http://www.golfwrx.c...e/#entry7965859

Wishon gets plenty of support on this from the GolfWorks crew at the (Ralph) Maltby Clubmaking Academy. Our instructor had a regular wedge and a smooth-faced wedge (circa 2012) and showed us that the smooth-face would spin from a decent lie. Rough or wet, not so well.

Also, Rick's test with a 60* wedge brings in some noise to the equation. A 60* gets very high launch, and a steep descent angle will contribute to stopping power. Would like to see a similar test with a couple of 48* wedges.

My X20 Tour irons are shafted with the NS Pro 8950GH. It is a low spin but high launch shaft, and a decent iron shot checks up and sets down nicely with a release of a few feet. I play a midspin ball, which cuts down a bit on amount of backspin. But, overall it works well.

i made a groove less 60 lob wedge i used in my studio, and from indoor mats we dont get much support from the mat to trap the ball so launch is always higher and spin is lower, but the difference between a wedge with the same DG spinner shaft who had grooves vs the groove less was 1500-2000 Rpm or 15-20% less spin, NOT 50% like the video say. Outdoor in wet conditions it was "very variable", so we do need grooves to drain water out, but grooves is not that important from dry lies, and the groove less head will get a higher launch and steeper descent who compensate for some of the spin lost, so they are playable in dry conditions, but not ideal.

The question I was asking myself when watching the video was, even if the spin gets close to a grooved wedge, what’s the point in a grooveless wedge? And if it performs ok in the dry but isn’t good in wet conditions is there any point in anyone buying one to use at all?

Cochran and Stobbs said as much fifty years ago:

Search for the Perfect Swing: The Proven Scientific Approach to Fundamentally Improving Your Game, by Alastair Cochran and John Stobbs, 1968

As is so often the case with golf equipment, it's nothing new.

The Dynacraft component company offered grooveless wedge heads in the late 80s or early 90s.

That may have been around the time Tom Wishon was designing for Dynacraft.

As is so often the case with golf equipment, it's nothing new.

 

The Dynacraft component company offered grooveless wedge heads in the late 80s or early 90s.

 

That may have been around the time Tom Wishon was designing for Dynacraft.

The smooth faced golf clubs date back farther than the 80's. I had seen some vintage clubs from the hickory era and pretty certain all the golf clubs had smooth face several hundred years ago when the game become popular.