Putting with flag in (MERGED)

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  • MidwestGolfBumMidwestGolfBum Corporate Golfer Extraordinaire MSN/MKE/DSMMembers Posts: 1,297 ✭✭
    3chavgolf wrote:



    Is within the rules, so.....




    I was away from the game for a while and didn’t know that this was coming in 2019.



    I thought that it was interesting and am a fan of this, especially since I play alone most of the time.



    Bryson’s reasoning was interesting and I just wanted to get the opinion of other golfers on this forum as to why he wants to leave the flag in.




    Since you play alone most of the time, it shouldn't matter since you can't post the score for handicap purposes anyway. Leave that sucker in and have at it!
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  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 4,689 ✭✭
    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.
  • Jacked_LoftJacked_Loft Steps Ahead Members Posts: 487 ✭✭
    New stat: SG with and without using pin on green.



    I'll be pulling it as usual.
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  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,586 ✭✭
    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    there's no way on an 8 footer he hit it hard enough where it hit the flag hard enough to miss, or the flag was crooked.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,860 ✭✭
    pinhigh27 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    there's no way on an 8 footer he hit it hard enough where it hit the flag hard enough to miss, or the flag was crooked.




    just not true... i missed a 20 footer from the fringe last week for birdie that hit teh center of the pin and popped back to the lip and sat there.... Now sure it wasnt die speed..But it would have hit the back of teh cup and went in if no Pin...
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  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members Posts: 9,586 ✭✭
    I don't believe it happens commonly and neither does the research. Someone like dechambeau is extremely analytical so he wouldn't be doing this if he didn't have concrete data that showed it helps majority of time.



    It takes a lot of energy for the ball to bounce off flag and leave the hole. Like a putt 10+ feet by. The flag provides way more of a backstop than the back edge of the hole.
    How to be in better shape for golf?
    Become a better athlete.
    Don't worry about golf specific.
    Compound lifts w/ linear progress
    Don't forget the mobility work.
    More results, more functional

    Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
    17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
    8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
    Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
    Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,495 ✭✭
    There's clear evidence that laving the pin in is to the advantage of the player, so I'm not really behind this rule change...in spirit. Many times there is outcry about backstopping with balls in a position to assist players and i kind of view this as the same.





    In practice, I don't see this being much of an issue. I just don't see any of my runaway putts hitting the flag too often
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    edited Nov 2, 2018 #39
    For those who enjoy math and physics, here is some good analysis that explores capture speed.



    "I've rolled balls with as much as 20' past capture speed on a flat portion of a green stimping at about 10 and had them repeatedly fall in to the hole. I shouldn't have to tell you… none of the balls rolled at the same speed went into the hole with the flagstick removed.

    Thus, the conclusion is simple: the flagstick dampens the speed of the ball by a significantly larger factor than it reduces the distance (and time) that the ball spends in free-fall."



    https://thesandtrap....e-flagstick-in/



    TL:DR - I can't image a ball hit hard enough to bounce off the flagstick and miss the cup ever had a prayer of being captured by the hole.
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  • Santiago GolfSantiago Golf I Strive to make you Better Members Posts: 4,997 ✭✭
    I gunna leave it in for almost every putt
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,336 ✭✭
    The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,495 ✭✭
    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.




    I think for a lot of older players, it's a situation where we are used to a "look" of the the cup with no flagstick, especially on closer putts. For me, I'll probably leave it in if it's in, and leave it out if it's out. Except for long putts where I'll probably just leave it in.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,336 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:

    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.




    I think for a lot of older players, it's a situation where we are used to a "look" of the the cup with no flagstick, especially on closer putts. For me, I'll probably leave it in if it's in, and leave it out if it's out. Except for long putts where I'll probably just leave it in.




    Yep. I could see that being the case for me as well. Should be interesting to see how things go once we get some reps with the flag. Maybe when its all said and done I won't want the flag at all.....
    G400 LST - TPT proto
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  • DFS PFDDFS PFD Members Posts: 872 ✭✭
    I'm sure everyone will just play it by feel, much like when chipping with prior rules; pull the flag when it leans towards you and leave it when it leans away from you to act as a backstop without preventing the ball from dropping. That's how I'll utilize the new rule at least.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,860 ✭✭
    this really is/was a solution in search of a problem
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  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 403 ✭✭
    I'll be leaving the flag in on longer putts, so that's a tiny bit of time saved.



    On shorter putts I want it out. Your not going to knock it 6' past on a 6' putt, and I would hate to see a good putt bounce out off the stick.



    Slippery downhills? Probably leave it in for those.



    It will be part of the new rules. So I'll use it, just like any other rule.
  • jmckjmck Members Posts: 4,277 ✭✭


    Can it be any slower? Lol...




    Unfortunately, the answer to that is always yes.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭


    I'll be leaving the flag in on longer putts, so that's a tiny bit of time saved.



    On shorter putts I want it out. Your not going to knock it 6' past on a 6' putt, and I would hate to see a good putt bounce out off the stick.



    Slippery downhills? Probably leave it in for those.



    It will be part of the new rules. So I'll use it, just like any other rule.




    Fear not! It won't. The flagstick helps in pretty much every case, assuming you can get used to it visually.



    See my post above.
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:

    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.




    I think for a lot of older players, it's a situation where we are used to a "look" of the the cup with no flagstick, especially on closer putts. For me, I'll probably leave it in if it's in, and leave it out if it's out. Except for long putts where I'll probably just leave it in.




    I feel like "the look" will affect everyone, regardless of age. Except for those who play a lot of golf alone (and even then some of them still remove it), we have all been removing the stick for our entire golfing careers.
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,495 ✭✭
    rawdog wrote:

    Vindog wrote:

    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.




    I think for a lot of older players, it's a situation where we are used to a "look" of the the cup with no flagstick, especially on closer putts. For me, I'll probably leave it in if it's in, and leave it out if it's out. Except for long putts where I'll probably just leave it in.




    I feel like "the look" will affect everyone, regardless of age. Except for those who play a lot of golf alone (and even then some of them still remove it), we have all been removing the stick for our entire golfing careers.




    You have a point there I guess.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    Vindog wrote:

    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.




    I think for a lot of older players, it's a situation where we are used to a "look" of the the cup with no flagstick, especially on closer putts. For me, I'll probably leave it in if it's in, and leave it out if it's out. Except for long putts where I'll probably just leave it in.




    I feel like "the look" will affect everyone, regardless of age. Except for those who play a lot of golf alone (and even then some of them still remove it), we have all been removing the stick for our entire golfing careers.




    You have a point there I guess.




    I'm 29 and play a fair amount of golf alone and either leave the flag in or remove it kind of willy nilly depending how "seriously" I'm practicing. If I were smart, I would've kept better track and see if it made a difference.



    One thing that helps me is when I practice my putting I am doing it with the mini flags in. Not 100% the same visual as a full sized stick, but it may have helped condition me. I don't really find myself balking during practice rounds where I leave the stick in.
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 4,689 ✭✭
    pinhigh27 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    there's no way on an 8 footer he hit it hard enough where it hit the flag hard enough to miss, or the flag was crooked.






    Thanks for the assertion, but the flag was bottomed, and I don't recall seeing you there.



    The kid is 15 and a 2 HC. His putts always have pace and he makes a boatload of putts.

    I was wrong to leave the flag in.







    "Flag Pullin'"



    The real pi$$er is when you have a group of 4 and 2 want the flag out and 2 want it in.
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,336 ✭✭
    Ferguson wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    there's no way on an 8 footer he hit it hard enough where it hit the flag hard enough to miss, or the flag was crooked.






    Thanks for the assertion, but the flag was bottomed, and I don't recall seeing you there.



    The kid is 15 and a 2 HC. His putts always have pace and he makes a boatload of putts.

    I was wrong to leave the flag in.







    "Flag Pullin'"



    The real pi$$er is when you have a group of 4 and 2 want the flag out and 2 want it in.




    Ferguson the II is a two HC. Very nice.
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  • BIG STUBIG STU Members Posts: 11,286 ✭✭
    Ferguson wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    there's no way on an 8 footer he hit it hard enough where it hit the flag hard enough to miss, or the flag was crooked.






    Thanks for the assertion, but the flag was bottomed, and I don't recall seeing you there.



    The kid is 15 and a 2 HC. His putts always have pace and he makes a boatload of putts.

    I was wrong to leave the flag in.







    "Flag Pullin'"



    The real pi$$er is when you have a group of 4 and 2 want the flag out and 2 want it in.
    Gotta agree with you there Fergie---- But I have seen anything and everything happen in golf the 50 years or so I have been playing it. I have seen hammered putts hit the hole with no flagstick jump straight up and go back in the cup. I have seen what looks like perfect speed dive and do a rim out too. It is golf and anything can and will happen. Like Rawdog said some of us have been used to pulling the stick all our golfing lives. I even pull them on the practice green. Since I like to experiment anyhow I am going to start practicing putting even 4 footers with the pin in and see. From reading this thread I have gotten some ideas already. Like you said Fergie it will also be interesting to see how this plays out between 4 somes
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    Ferguson wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    there's no way on an 8 footer he hit it hard enough where it hit the flag hard enough to miss, or the flag was crooked.






    Thanks for the assertion, but the flag was bottomed, and I don't recall seeing you there.



    The kid is 15 and a 2 HC. His putts always have pace and he makes a boatload of putts.

    I was wrong to leave the flag in.







    "Flag Pullin'"



    The real pi$$er is when you have a group of 4 and 2 want the flag out and 2 want it in.




    Was it one of the metal flagsticks Bryson mentioned from the US Open?
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    I just want one poster to talk about how a ball that lips out ends up further from the hole ends up further than it otherwise would have had it missed the cup altogether.



    Is that too much to ask?
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • RobS14526RobS14526 Members Posts: 1,127 ✭✭
    How do you think you would respond if you were playing a competitive round with a stranger and they kept asking you to put the flag back in before they putt?



    A)” No problem, anything I can do to help.”

    B) “If you want the flag, you can get it yourself.”

    C) “I can’t hear you, I’m on the next tee box.”
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,015 ✭✭
    edited Nov 2, 2018 #58
    RobS14526 wrote:


    How do you think you would respond if you were playing a competitive round with a stranger and they kept asking you to put the flag back in before they putt?



    A)” No problem, anything I can do to help.”

    B) “If you want the flag, you can get it yourself.”

    C) “I can’t hear you, I’m on the next tee box.”




    Trick question. No need to ask when I've already left it in.







    EDIT: That response sounds dirtier due to my username.
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • MudguardMudguard Members Posts: 1,265 ✭✭
    I still wonder if it will promote a rethink on pin design. Obviously when pins and cups are new, the flag will tend to stay more upright. But after while they slop around and lean. Someone will design a pin with a super thin section at green height, or with rubber around it. perhaps even a slight cone shape...
  • gioreekogioreeko Members Posts: 324 ✭✭
    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,860 ✭✭
    edited Nov 2, 2018 #61
    gioreeko wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.



    I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

    He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

    He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."





    I'm going to pull it.




    He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.




    Love these absolutes. Would be same as me saying “ the pin will never help a putt go in “.



    Come on. How many times have we seen the pin spit out a bunker shot or chip on tv ? Hundreds.



    Pelz ramblings didn’t even say 100%.



    Edit-



    2 things come to mind when mentioning Pelz’s research.



    1. If he constructed this at his test facility I bet his cups are seated in cement. His greens and surrounds are artificial. I installed my artificial green and 99.9 % of them have cups set in quickrete. Laser or bubble leveled exact. So the pin will be exactly upright. No angles or variables.



    2. Phil mickleson. Probably the 1st high profile Pelz desciple. Mentions him all the time. He has no faith i this research as evident by his constant tending of the flag on approaches and pin out chips. Why is that ?



    I just don’t think anyone has any concrete idea how often the pin will help or hurt on a real course setting. Maybe it’s a wash ? Maybe it’s not. Certainly not close to a science yet. No REAL data yet.
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