Putting with flag in (MERGED)

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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 6, 2018 #122
    KennyP wrote:


    So, if some players elect to putt with the flag in and some elect to putt with the flag out, is this rule actually going to slow play down rather than speed it up?




    It certainly could. I myself will probably just leave it in if it's in and leave it out if it's out. As far as the tour pros, who the **** knows.
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,189Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 6, 2018 #123
    KennyP wrote:


    So, if some players elect to putt with the flag in and some elect to putt with the flag out, is this rule actually going to slow play down rather than speed it up?




    Absolutely. Do you think we will see players like tiger putt with the pin in ? Doubt it. Then Bryson wants it in. Cantlay can’t decide. Then phil wants it tended Incase he hits it too fast. Should be a real cluster.
    Posted:
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers  3054WRX Points: 160Handicap: 5.2Posts: 3,054 Titanium Tees
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    KennyP wrote:


    So, if some players elect to putt with the flag in and some elect to putt with the flag out, is this rule actually going to slow play down rather than speed it up?




    Absolutely. Do you think we will see players like tiger putt with the pin in ? Doubt it. Then Bryson wants it in. Cantlay can't decide. Then phil wants it tended Incase he hits it too fast. Should be a real cluster.




    Lol'ed at "Cantlay can't decide."
    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
  • FergusonFerguson Members  5856WRX Points: 3,269Handicap: 7.0Posts: 5,856 Titanium Tees
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    pinhigh27 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Re: this from the RAW DOG



    I'm headed out for a date (shocking, I know for a nerd like me), so I really want to give your post the attention it deserves.



    You bring up good points, but I'd encourage you to read the link to Pelz article/study. It was done on five separate greens and he mentions the variables of using natural turf, including it wearing, holes wearing, and imperfections in the green.



    That being said, I also posted a link with a good analysis of the physics involved. I understand capture rates and the physics involved, but some of it is admittedly a bit beyond my education.



    So in my mind, both in theory and in practice (including using a machine and a human), I am confident in saying keeping it in is a better long-term strategy.



    The one brief thing I'll say about Phil is that while the hole effectively becomes larger with the stick in, it APPEARS larger with the stick out. So I think you are onto something as to why players take it out. It has to do with the visualization and feel, which we both know is a big component of the game.



    Have a good evening... hopefully I can come back tonight and add to the convo.










    Two questions:



    1. What exact physics computations pertain to a ball striking a flag stick (with so many unknowns)?

    2. How did your date go? (I will not take this into the gutter and ask about sticks and holes, and such?)




    First, the date went well, thank you. She used to play bball so I figured a first date at our local rec center shooting a couple games of HORSE would be fun. She got to see why I'm a golfer and not a bball player image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> Dinner and drinks followed and... second date is going down tonight. Score. She must have been impressed by the photos of my indoor putting green...



    Now, the important stuff...



    Please follow the link to the other site for full text, because I'm not sure if I can post the name of the site here. I am NOT a member there, but this thread came up in my reading on the subject. Poster identified six areas of potential benefit for putting with the stick in. The first three have justification rooted in physics. Personally, I believe #1 is most important, followed closely by #3. I am not a physicist, but know enough about each topic to expound a little bit if you'd like.

    https://thesandtrap....e-flagstick-in/
    1. The flagstick slows the ball by a greater factor than it decreases the time the ball spends suspended over the hole.
    2. Unless you have exceptional distance control, effective capture speed can remain about the same.
    3. Hitting the ball more firmly allows for a larger margin of error. It also reduces the tendency of a slow-moving putt to "wobble" or be moved off-line due to imperfections.
    4. Players, particularly poorer putters, leave a lot of putts from 6' to 15' short. This change would let them be more aggressive.
    5. The situations where the flagstick should be removed (it leans too much, it's moving around a lot in the wind) almost never occur.
    6. The flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim.









    As long as you leave the lampshade at home, the next date will go equally as well, if not better.





    As a follow-up:



    My son and I ran an experiment putting 20 balls each from 8 feet, it was a straight putt down grain - first with stick in and then stick out.

    Our greens are perfect.



    He made 16 with stick with stick out

    13 with stick in



    I made 13 with stick with stick out

    11 with stick in





    Then we went hit some balls and came back and did it again.



    He made 18 with stick with stick out

    14 with stick in



    I made 14 with stick with stick out

    11 with stick in







    We are pulling - no sense messing with what works.




    Your sample size is microscopic. And the misses were because you missed the hole right? I still have no idea how it's possible to hit an 8 foot putt hard enough to bounce off a flag, so just making sure you're not claiming that like others have. Mental effects are a real thing too. Maybe some players like it better with no flag and as such do better. Just saying the physics seem very likely for it to overall benefit unless the flag is crooked






    My experiment was a tangible example to support my claim that my kid's putt would have gone down with the flag out.

    I try to bring something aside from unsubstantiated statements.





    It was an experiment, and it's more than what you have offered, Judge Wapner.
    Posted:
  • white03white03 Members  695WRX Points: 88Handicap: 2Posts: 695 Golden Tee
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    Heard Dennis Paulson say the PGA tour would never permit leaving the pin in when on the green. Said it would look bad and that the Tour will keep playing by the old rule.



    For whatever that is worth
    Posted:
  • davep043davep043 Members  4964WRX Points: 2,177Handicap: 6.3Posts: 4,964 Titanium Tees
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    white03 wrote:


    Heard Dennis Paulson say the PGA tour would never permit leaving the pin in when on the green. Said it would look bad and that the Tour will keep playing by the old rule.



    For whatever that is worth


    LOL, for whatever its worth, I am guessing that Dennis doesn't speak for the Tour.When he says it would "look bad", he's really saying that it would look bad to his eyes. The Tour has said that they'll play by the Rules of golf, and approved wordings of local rules. As far as I'm aware, there's no approved local rule that applies a penalty for hitting a flagstick in the hole when the ball is played from the putting green. It will be interesting to see if they attempt to include this under Conditions of Competition, with things like the long trouser requirement, and the limitation on the use of buggies.
    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 6, 2018 #128
    But a committee can't waive a rule, or apply a penalty where the ROG do not, yes? This from the 2019 RoG http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=12




    Rule 1.3c(3) states that the Committee does not have the authority to apply penalties in a different way than stated in the Rules of Golf. Therefore, it is inappropriate for a Committee to write an unauthorized Local Rule that waives a penalty or changes a penalty. For example, a Committee cannot change the penalty for using a non-conforming club from disqualification to the general penalty or change the general penalty for failing to replace a ball which was moved to a single stroke. The Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.



    In addition, Committees must not write a Local Rule that goes beyond the authorized Local Rules in ways which compromise the basic principles of the Rules of Golf. As examples, allowing players to use preferred lies throughout the general area or giving free relief from divot holes in the fairway compromise the basic principle under Rule 1.1 of playing the ball as it lies.
    Posted:
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • KennyPKennyP Members  898WRX Points: 178Posts: 898 Golden Tee
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    Another aspect is how's it going to look on TV if the player and/or ball are partially obscured by the pin, flag or shadow?



    Posted:
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers  3054WRX Points: 160Handicap: 5.2Posts: 3,054 Titanium Tees
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    KennyP wrote:


    Another aspect is how's it going to look on TV if the player and/or ball are partially obscured by the pin, flag or shadow?




    Probably more interesting than it does now.
    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members  9822WRX Points: 345Posts: 9,822 Titanium Tees
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    Ferguson wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    Re: this from the RAW DOG



    I'm headed out for a date (shocking, I know for a nerd like me), so I really want to give your post the attention it deserves.



    You bring up good points, but I'd encourage you to read the link to Pelz article/study. It was done on five separate greens and he mentions the variables of using natural turf, including it wearing, holes wearing, and imperfections in the green.



    That being said, I also posted a link with a good analysis of the physics involved. I understand capture rates and the physics involved, but some of it is admittedly a bit beyond my education.



    So in my mind, both in theory and in practice (including using a machine and a human), I am confident in saying keeping it in is a better long-term strategy.



    The one brief thing I'll say about Phil is that while the hole effectively becomes larger with the stick in, it APPEARS larger with the stick out. So I think you are onto something as to why players take it out. It has to do with the visualization and feel, which we both know is a big component of the game.



    Have a good evening... hopefully I can come back tonight and add to the convo.










    Two questions:



    1. What exact physics computations pertain to a ball striking a flag stick (with so many unknowns)?

    2. How did your date go? (I will not take this into the gutter and ask about sticks and holes, and such?)




    First, the date went well, thank you. She used to play bball so I figured a first date at our local rec center shooting a couple games of HORSE would be fun. She got to see why I'm a golfer and not a bball player image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' /> Dinner and drinks followed and... second date is going down tonight. Score. She must have been impressed by the photos of my indoor putting green...



    Now, the important stuff...



    Please follow the link to the other site for full text, because I'm not sure if I can post the name of the site here. I am NOT a member there, but this thread came up in my reading on the subject. Poster identified six areas of potential benefit for putting with the stick in. The first three have justification rooted in physics. Personally, I believe #1 is most important, followed closely by #3. I am not a physicist, but know enough about each topic to expound a little bit if you'd like.

    [url="https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/93352-putting-with-the-flagstick-in/"]https://thesandtrap....e-flagstick-in/[/url]
    1. The flagstick slows the ball by a greater factor than it decreases the time the ball spends suspended over the hole.
    2. Unless you have exceptional distance control, effective capture speed can remain about the same.
    3. Hitting the ball more firmly allows for a larger margin of error. It also reduces the tendency of a slow-moving putt to "wobble" or be moved off-line due to imperfections.
    4. Players, particularly poorer putters, leave a lot of putts from 6' to 15' short. This change would let them be more aggressive.
    5. The situations where the flagstick should be removed (it leans too much, it's moving around a lot in the wind) almost never occur.
    6. The flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim.









    As long as you leave the lampshade at home, the next date will go equally as well, if not better.





    As a follow-up:



    My son and I ran an experiment putting 20 balls each from 8 feet, it was a straight putt down grain - first with stick in and then stick out.

    Our greens are perfect.



    He made 16 with stick with stick out

    13 with stick in



    I made 13 with stick with stick out

    11 with stick in





    Then we went hit some balls and came back and did it again.



    He made 18 with stick with stick out

    14 with stick in



    I made 14 with stick with stick out

    11 with stick in







    We are pulling - no sense messing with what works.




    Your sample size is microscopic. And the misses were because you missed the hole right? I still have no idea how it's possible to hit an 8 foot putt hard enough to bounce off a flag, so just making sure you're not claiming that like others have. Mental effects are a real thing too. Maybe some players like it better with no flag and as such do better. Just saying the physics seem very likely for it to overall benefit unless the flag is crooked






    My experiment was a tangible example to support my claim that my kid's putt would have gone down with the flag out.

    I try to bring something aside from unsubstantiated statements.





    It was an experiment, and it's more than what you have offered, Judge Wapner.




    Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?
    Posted:
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers  3054WRX Points: 160Handicap: 5.2Posts: 3,054 Titanium Tees
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    pinhigh27 wrote:




    Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?




    Actually, I just realized what's more interesting is the 90% and 70% make percentages with the stick out - from 8 feet.



    Some tour-level stuff right there!



    If they're hitting every putt with enough pace to bounce off a flagstick and out of the hole, the effective size of the hole becomes really small. A ball with enough speed to roll 3.5' past the hole has only a 1.2" wide capture width (a golf ball is 1.62").



    So to hit 18 of 20 dead center cup is pretty amazing skill.
    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
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  • FergusonFerguson Members  5856WRX Points: 3,269Handicap: 7.0Posts: 5,856 Titanium Tees
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    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.
    Posted:
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members  9822WRX Points: 345Posts: 9,822 Titanium Tees
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    Ferguson wrote:


    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.




    Make rate is different than it hitting the flag stick and bouncing out. Did they miss the hole or bounce out
    Posted:
  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members  9822WRX Points: 345Posts: 9,822 Titanium Tees
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    I'd love to see a video of multiple 8 footers bouncing out of hole
    Posted:
  • davep043davep043 Members  4964WRX Points: 2,177Handicap: 6.3Posts: 4,964 Titanium Tees
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    Ferguson wrote:


    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.


    You didn't exactly answer his question. With the stick in, how many putts hit the hole, how many of those went in/out, and how far away did they end up? Same for the ones with the stick out. Of the putts that missed the hole, how far away did they end up, separated by pin in and out. Did you, intentionally or not, putt the ball firmer with the pin in? Did any difference in speed change your read, or your approach, and could that influence the make percentage? My impression was that you had an opinion before you did your experiment, and that could have influenced your approach to each putt.
    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers  3054WRX Points: 160Handicap: 5.2Posts: 3,054 Titanium Tees
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    pinhigh27 wrote:


    I'd love to see a video of multiple 8 footers bouncing out of hole




    image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />



    Posted:
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5*
    On -, @44.5"

    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 5W = 19*

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue
    On -, @41.5" 7W = 23*

    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled
    On -, @33.5"

    Maxfli SoftFli
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  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members  11065WRX Points: 843Posts: 11,065 Titanium Tees
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    Vindog wrote:


    But a committee can't waive a rule, or apply a penalty where the ROG do not, yes? This from the 2019 RoG [url="http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=12"]http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=12[/url]




    Rule 1.3c(3) states that the Committee does not have the authority to apply penalties in a different way than stated in the Rules of Golf. Therefore, it is inappropriate for a Committee to write an unauthorized Local Rule that waives a penalty or changes a penalty. For example, a Committee cannot change the penalty for using a non-conforming club from disqualification to the general penalty or change the general penalty for failing to replace a ball which was moved to a single stroke. The Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.



    In addition, Committees must not write a Local Rule that goes beyond the authorized Local Rules in ways which compromise the basic principles of the Rules of Golf. As examples, allowing players to use preferred lies throughout the general area or giving free relief from divot holes in the fairway compromise the basic principle under Rule 1.1 of playing the ball as it lies.





    A committee can do whatever they want if they don’t follow USGA rules and make individual rule stipulations
    Posted:
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 6, 2018 #139
    Holy Moses wrote:

    Vindog wrote:


    But a committee can't waive a rule, or apply a penalty where the ROG do not, yes? This from the 2019 RoG http://www.usga.org/...8&subrulenum=12




    Rule 1.3c(3) states that the Committee does not have the authority to apply penalties in a different way than stated in the Rules of Golf. Therefore, it is inappropriate for a Committee to write an unauthorized Local Rule that waives a penalty or changes a penalty. For example, a Committee cannot change the penalty for using a non-conforming club from disqualification to the general penalty or change the general penalty for failing to replace a ball which was moved to a single stroke. The Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.



    In addition, Committees must not write a Local Rule that goes beyond the authorized Local Rules in ways which compromise the basic principles of the Rules of Golf. As examples, allowing players to use preferred lies throughout the general area or giving free relief from divot holes in the fairway compromise the basic principle under Rule 1.1 of playing the ball as it lies.





    A committee can do whatever they want if they don't follow USGA rules and make individual rule stipulations




    It's a great sound bite, but it ain't happening.



    If they detract from USGA/R&A rules or approved local rules at any time this year for any reason for any rule I will send you a dozen balls of your choosing. Unauthorized local rule, Unauthorized CoC, adding a penalty, taking away a penalty, whatever. They're just not going to do it.
    Posted:
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members  11065WRX Points: 843Posts: 11,065 Titanium Tees
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    Vindog wrote:

    Holy Moses wrote:

    Vindog wrote:


    But a committee can't waive a rule, or apply a penalty where the ROG do not, yes? This from the 2019 RoG [url="http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=12"]http://www.usga.org/...8&subrulenum=12[/url]




    Rule 1.3c(3) states that the Committee does not have the authority to apply penalties in a different way than stated in the Rules of Golf. Therefore, it is inappropriate for a Committee to write an unauthorized Local Rule that waives a penalty or changes a penalty. For example, a Committee cannot change the penalty for using a non-conforming club from disqualification to the general penalty or change the general penalty for failing to replace a ball which was moved to a single stroke. The Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.



    In addition, Committees must not write a Local Rule that goes beyond the authorized Local Rules in ways which compromise the basic principles of the Rules of Golf. As examples, allowing players to use preferred lies throughout the general area or giving free relief from divot holes in the fairway compromise the basic principle under Rule 1.1 of playing the ball as it lies.





    A committee can do whatever they want if they don't follow USGA rules and make individual rule stipulations




    It's a great sound bite, but it ain't happening.



    If they detract from USGA/R&A rules or approved local rules at any time this year for any reason for any rule I will send you a dozen balls of your choosing. Unauthorized local rule, Unauthorized CoC, adding a penalty, taking away a penalty, whatever. They're just not going to do it.




    Not arguing they would, just that they could. Do I still get a dozen balls?
    Posted:
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    Ping G30 3W 14.5* (Tensei CK Pro Blue 70 X)
    Ping G400 Crossover 19* (Tensei CK Pro Blue 80 S)
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    Ping Glide 2.0 56*SS, 60*ES (PX 6.0)
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
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    Holy Moses wrote:
    Not arguing they would, just that they could. Do I still get a dozen balls?




    Some re-loads headed your way. Fore Right!
    Posted:
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members  11065WRX Points: 843Posts: 11,065 Titanium Tees
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    Vindog wrote:

    Holy Moses wrote:
    Not arguing they would, just that they could. Do I still get a dozen balls?




    Some re-loads headed your way. Fore Right!




    Why I love this place
    Posted:
    Ping G30 LS Tec 10* (DI-6X)
    Ping G30 3W 14.5* (Tensei CK Pro Blue 70 X)
    Ping G400 Crossover 19* (Tensei CK Pro Blue 80 S)
    Ping i20 4-UW (PX 6.0)
    Ping Glide 2.0 56*SS, 60*ES (PX 6.0)
    Ping Vault Arna
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  • larrybudlarrybud Rochester Hills, MIMembers  11596WRX Points: 483Handicap: 3.4Posts: 11,596 Titanium Tees
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    KennyP wrote:


    So, if some players elect to putt with the flag in and some elect to putt with the flag out, is this rule actually going to slow play down rather than speed it up?




    Yes.



    I hope the tour bans this rule. Great for the average casual player, not for the tour.
    Posted:
  • davep043davep043 Members  4964WRX Points: 2,177Handicap: 6.3Posts: 4,964 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #144
    larrybud wrote:

    KennyP wrote:


    So, if some players elect to putt with the flag in and some elect to putt with the flag out, is this rule actually going to slow play down rather than speed it up?




    Yes.



    I hope the tour bans this rule. Great for the average casual player, not for the tour.


    The tour will simply not "ban" this rule. They will NOT go counter to the rules of golf, and the rules have no provision for ignoring this rule. The only way to force players to remove the flag is to add a penalty for hitting it, and the rules specifically do not allow additional penalties to be imposed by a local rule.
    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

  • FergusonFerguson Members  5856WRX Points: 3,269Handicap: 7.0Posts: 5,856 Titanium Tees
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    davep043 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.


    You didn't exactly answer his question. With the stick in, how many putts hit the hole, how many of those went in/out, and how far away did they end up? Same for the ones with the stick out. Of the putts that missed the hole, how far away did they end up, separated by pin in and out. Did you, intentionally or not, putt the ball firmer with the pin in? Did any difference in speed change your read, or your approach, and could that influence the make percentage? My impression was that you had an opinion before you did your experiment, and that could have influenced your approach to each putt.






    Although it's easy and convenient to think the flag stick would have zero influence on putts made or missed from 8 feet, the test results from my experiment tell a vastly different story. We found, after making the effort to test the assumption, the flag stick served as a hindrance to several correctly struck putts resulting in fewer “made putts” than under the same circumstances and conditions without a flag stick in the hole. Using 8-10 putts as the control group to gauge our speed, line and stroke further supports the argument that leaving the flag in serves as an unnecessary obstacle, and negatively impacts putts made. The belief that the flag stick has no influence on putts made is what scientists and professionals would label as generally as not a good idea.
    Posted:
  • davep043davep043 Members  4964WRX Points: 2,177Handicap: 6.3Posts: 4,964 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #146
    Ferguson wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.


    You didn't exactly answer his question. With the stick in, how many putts hit the hole, how many of those went in/out, and how far away did they end up? Same for the ones with the stick out. Of the putts that missed the hole, how far away did they end up, separated by pin in and out. Did you, intentionally or not, putt the ball firmer with the pin in? Did any difference in speed change your read, or your approach, and could that influence the make percentage? My impression was that you had an opinion before you did your experiment, and that could have influenced your approach to each putt.






    Although it's easy and convenient to think the flag stick would have zero influence on putts made or missed from 8 feet, the test results from my experiment tell a vastly different story. We found, after making the effort to test the assumption, the flag stick served as a hindrance to several correctly struck putts resulting in fewer “made putts” than under the same circumstances and conditions without a flag stick in the hole. Using 8-10 putts as the control group to gauge our speed, line and stroke further supports the argument that leaving the flag in serves as an unnecessary obstacle, and negatively impacts putts made. The belief that the flag stick has no influence on putts made is what scientists and professionals would label as generally as not a good idea.


    I think that to accept the conclusions of a study in which the data is not made available for review is also not a good idea. I'm sure you did your best, but you still haven't provided the data. In my opinion, the variability of human putting is a significant factor, its just too hard to reproduce a truly consistent line and speed, and line and speed will definitely influence the results. Its impossible to remove that human variability from the scatter in the resulting data.



    Ideally, you could do experiments using something like the Perfect Putter. http://theperfectputter.com/index.php/description

    With a device like that, you can set it up close to the hole, and vary the location of the ball (dead center, 0.5 inch from center, 1, 1.5, 2 inches), and vary the speed (dead weight, 1 foot past, 3 feet, 5,10), and really get meaningful results. Now I'm not going to spend a few hundred bucks for something like that, but I'm sure a number of people and/or organizations will.
    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

  • BIG STUBIG STU Members  12996WRX Points: 3,922Handicap: 5.0Posts: 12,996 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #147

    KennyP wrote:


    So, if some players elect to putt with the flag in and some elect to putt with the flag out, is this rule actually going to slow play down rather than speed it up?




    Absolutely. Do you think we will see players like tiger putt with the pin in ? Doubt it. Then Bryson wants it in. Cantlay can't decide. Then phil wants it tended Incase he hits it too fast. Should be a real cluster.
    Lately PGA Tour and cluster are the same thing
    Posted:

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  • pinhigh27pinhigh27 Members  9822WRX Points: 345Posts: 9,822 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #148
    Ferguson wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.


    You didn't exactly answer his question. With the stick in, how many putts hit the hole, how many of those went in/out, and how far away did they end up? Same for the ones with the stick out. Of the putts that missed the hole, how far away did they end up, separated by pin in and out. Did you, intentionally or not, putt the ball firmer with the pin in? Did any difference in speed change your read, or your approach, and could that influence the make percentage? My impression was that you had an opinion before you did your experiment, and that could have influenced your approach to each putt.






    Although it's easy and convenient to think the flag stick would have zero influence on putts made or missed from 8 feet, the test results from my experiment tell a vastly different story. We found, after making the effort to test the assumption, the flag stick served as a hindrance to several correctly struck putts resulting in fewer “made putts” than under the same circumstances and conditions without a flag stick in the hole. Using 8-10 putts as the control group to gauge our speed, line and stroke further supports the argument that leaving the flag in serves as an unnecessary obstacle, and negatively impacts putts made. The belief that the flag stick has no influence on putts made is what scientists and professionals would label as generally as not a good idea.




    Again you still haven't answered my question. On the misses is it hitting the flag and bouncing out or are you missing the hole?



    Posted:
  • FergusonFerguson Members  5856WRX Points: 3,269Handicap: 7.0Posts: 5,856 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #149
    davep043 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.


    You didn't exactly answer his question. With the stick in, how many putts hit the hole, how many of those went in/out, and how far away did they end up? Same for the ones with the stick out. Of the putts that missed the hole, how far away did they end up, separated by pin in and out. Did you, intentionally or not, putt the ball firmer with the pin in? Did any difference in speed change your read, or your approach, and could that influence the make percentage? My impression was that you had an opinion before you did your experiment, and that could have influenced your approach to each putt.






    Although it's easy and convenient to think the flag stick would have zero influence on putts made or missed from 8 feet, the test results from my experiment tell a vastly different story. We found, after making the effort to test the assumption, the flag stick served as a hindrance to several correctly struck putts resulting in fewer “made putts” than under the same circumstances and conditions without a flag stick in the hole. Using 8-10 putts as the control group to gauge our speed, line and stroke further supports the argument that leaving the flag in serves as an unnecessary obstacle, and negatively impacts putts made. The belief that the flag stick has no influence on putts made is what scientists and professionals would label as generally as not a good idea.


    I think that to accept the conclusions of a study in which the data is not made available for review is also not a good idea. I'm sure you did your best, but you still haven't provided the data. In my opinion, the variability of human putting is a significant factor, its just too hard to reproduce a truly consistent line and speed, and line and speed will definitely influence the results. Its impossible to remove that human variability from the scatter in the resulting data.



    Ideally, you could do experiments using something like the Perfect Putter. http://theperfectput...php/description

    With a device like that, you can set it up close to the hole, and vary the location of the ball (dead center, 0.5 inch from center, 1, 1.5, 2 inches), and vary the speed (dead weight, 1 foot past, 3 feet, 5,10), and really get meaningful results. Now I'm not going to spend a few hundred bucks for something like that, but I'm sure a number of people and/or organizations will.






    How about this?



    What if we were to create a ramp device (similar to a Stimpmeter, only at a steeper angle) and roll 20 balls at a distance of 8-feet, at the same assertive pace, on the same line, with the same brand of ball - you're asserting all 20 would go in?



    I disagree. The results would be even more staggering, in regard to the number of "missed putts."
    Posted:
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers  3054WRX Points: 160Handicap: 5.2Posts: 3,054 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 7, 2018 #150
    Look at all the balls this guy hit that bounced off and out. Look how hard the 5 foot downhillers are rolling. Way past "normal" speed and they have no problem dropping in.



    Particularly the very last putt.



    [media=]
    Posted:
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  • davep043davep043 Members  4964WRX Points: 2,177Handicap: 6.3Posts: 4,964 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Nov 7, 2018 #151
    Ferguson wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    Ferguson wrote:


    From The PINHIGH27

    Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?





    Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.


    You didn't exactly answer his question. With the stick in, how many putts hit the hole, how many of those went in/out, and how far away did they end up? Same for the ones with the stick out. Of the putts that missed the hole, how far away did they end up, separated by pin in and out. Did you, intentionally or not, putt the ball firmer with the pin in? Did any difference in speed change your read, or your approach, and could that influence the make percentage? My impression was that you had an opinion before you did your experiment, and that could have influenced your approach to each putt.






    Although it's easy and convenient to think the flag stick would have zero influence on putts made or missed from 8 feet, the test results from my experiment tell a vastly different story. We found, after making the effort to test the assumption, the flag stick served as a hindrance to several correctly struck putts resulting in fewer “made putts” than under the same circumstances and conditions without a flag stick in the hole. Using 8-10 putts as the control group to gauge our speed, line and stroke further supports the argument that leaving the flag in serves as an unnecessary obstacle, and negatively impacts putts made. The belief that the flag stick has no influence on putts made is what scientists and professionals would label as generally as not a good idea.


    I think that to accept the conclusions of a study in which the data is not made available for review is also not a good idea. I'm sure you did your best, but you still haven't provided the data. In my opinion, the variability of human putting is a significant factor, its just too hard to reproduce a truly consistent line and speed, and line and speed will definitely influence the results. Its impossible to remove that human variability from the scatter in the resulting data.



    Ideally, you could do experiments using something like the Perfect Putter. http://theperfectput...php/description

    With a device like that, you can set it up close to the hole, and vary the location of the ball (dead center, 0.5 inch from center, 1, 1.5, 2 inches), and vary the speed (dead weight, 1 foot past, 3 feet, 5,10), and really get meaningful results. Now I'm not going to spend a few hundred bucks for something like that, but I'm sure a number of people and/or organizations will.






    How about this?



    What if we were to create a ramp device (similar to a Stimpmeter, only at a steeper angle) and roll 20 balls at a distance of 8-feet, at the same assertive pace, on the same line, with the same brand of ball - you're asserting all 20 would go in?



    I disagree. The results would be even more staggering, in regard to the number of "missed putts."


    I've asserted nothing. I don't know what would happen. But I wouldn't set up the "experiment" that way.



    From 8 feet, the natural variability of the green itself would cause some scatter. A stimpmeter, with a straight incline and a sudden change in direction when the ball hits the green, will cause some bounce, more variability. That's why I picked the Perfect Putter thing, its designed to allow a smooth roll. I'd set it up next to the hole, maybe a foot away, so minimize the variability of the green surface. You can mark the incline, to get consistent speed. It doesn't matter how far back you start, really, the actual speed of the ball as it hits the pin (or cup) is what matters. And by setting the thing close to the hole, you can get pretty good control over where the ball hits the pin (or cup). So you end up with 3 primary variables: ball speed, location, and pin in or out. And the results from each combination are two-fold: make percentage, and distance on misses.



    What I think you'd find is that for perfect speed, the ball just dripping into the hole, there would be no difference between the pin in and pin out. As speed increases, you'd get more variability in results. The pin might bounce a few out, or it might capture a few that would otherwise lip out. At a specific entry location and speed, a ball that hits the pin and misses will finish closer, on balance, than a putt that lips out without the pin there. The greater the ball speed, the bigger that difference.



    And if you watch the video that rawdog posted, you'll see a whole lot of putts that went in while the flagstick remained in the hole.
    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

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