How is Cantlay not getting penalised?

TheInfidelTheInfidel Gotta let the Big Dog eat....Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
Surely after Pavin, this guy is next for slow play penalty? Maybe some guys will jump start the "there's money on the line rhetoric" but it's bad for the game, bad for the fans and bad for the field. Cantlay seems determined to take his fourth round to a Monday finish no matter where he's placed.



Cantlay needs penalised 2 or 3 times a tournament for this behaviour, how can he do that to his playing partners. Just standing there hopping back and forth? Sam Horsfield on the Euro Tour had some similar issues at the Turkish Airlines this week but he has been good enough to address it with a statement.

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Comments

  • Golfer4LifeGolfer4Life “Don’t bother me with your pettiness” Lake Placid, N.Y. Whiteface G.C.ClubWRX Posts: 2,323 ✭✭
    edited Nov 5, 2018 #2
    You are right, he's the poster boy for slow play.



    The tour is weak enforcing their own rules, that's why these shenanigans go on and on.



    Watching Cantlay is like having a severe case of the yips.
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  • Conrad1953Conrad1953 Members Posts: 15,059 ✭✭
    Nothing will change until the powers that be decide to get serious about this....and so far they have not.
  • dcmidnightdcmidnight Marshals, BST Volunteer Mods Posts: 11,714 mod
    Conrad1953 wrote:


    Nothing will change until the powers that be decide to get serious about this....and so far they have not.




    Watching the Euro Tour this weekend there was one guy who took so long over the ball I thought I had sat on the remote and paused the TV. Over several shots it was 25-30 seconds of just standing there.
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  • TheInfidelTheInfidel Gotta let the Big Dog eat.... Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    dcmidnight wrote:

    Conrad1953 wrote:


    Nothing will change until the powers that be decide to get serious about this....and so far they have not.




    Watching the Euro Tour this weekend there was one guy who took so long over the ball I thought I had sat on the remote and paused the TV. Over several shots it was 25-30 seconds of just standing there.




    Sam Horsfield - he's come out on Twitter to say that it's not intentional and he has trouble taking the club back (nerves/anxiety).

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  • Steele47Steele47 Members Posts: 1,312 ✭✭
    Yeah, a little while ago I saw that Horsfield guy standing over a shot motionless for quite some time. Wasn't waggling or anything. I thought the picture/tv coverage had frozen or something.
  • the bishopthe bishop Members Posts: 3,229 ✭✭
    I agree that watching Cantlay is frustrating but slow play on the Tour is a collective effort. Hard to tell watching on TV but was his group ever out of position? I wonder if Tour officials give some slack on individual times if a group is not out of position if getting them to hurry up would only serve to have them wait even longer to hit their next shots.
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  • TheInfidelTheInfidel Gotta let the Big Dog eat.... Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    the bishop wrote:


    I agree that watching Cantlay is frustrating but slow play on the Tour is a collective effort. Hard to tell watching on TV but was his group ever out of position? I wonder if Tour officials give some slack on individual times if a group is not out of position if getting them to hurry up would only serve to have them wait even longer to hit their next shots.




    I would totally agree with you on the collective effort point. But I would add that even if they weren't out of position due to a ruling in front or a lost ball etc, a basic shot clock approach means his time to play a shot is still way outside the norm or that which is acceptable. If penalties were levied on Cantlay and other slow players (JB Holmes - the 11 minute lay up guy) then collectively the pace of play would probably increase.



    I'd love to see a tour player call out his competitor on the tee/fairway where he's been consistently dragging the group down and they're at risk of being put on the clock. Plenty make comment post round but few stand up to challenge during play - especially when a group is put on the clock and not a player. Sadly I think this is very unlikely.

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  • MarkFromTheUKMarkFromTheUK Members Posts: 4,639 ✭✭
    He needs to stop taking lessons from Keegan Bradley.
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  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,440 ✭✭
    Was his group out of position? They need to be out of position in order to be put on the clock to even begin with. Then it’s a warning, then a penalty. It’s almost impossible for a group to really fall out of position on tour, and when it happens they fast track it for a hole or two and catch up. With a drivable par 4 and 4 reachable par 5’s on just about every course the tour plays now there will be a back up every 3 holes, it’s easy to catch up and avoid slow play penalties.
  • NevinWNevinW Las VegasClubWRX Posts: 1,113 ClubWRX
    They are all really slow now! I was there yesterday and Cantlay is noticeable because of his shuffling and DeChambeau is noticeable because of his "scientific" discussions with his caddy, but right now, they all seem to take forever to hit their shots. A fast player is going to suffer under these conditions every time. Every shot is a 5 minute calculation and debate. Even my wife who isn't very knowledgeable about the game commented: "isn't anybody going to hit a ball?" Cantlay isn't going to be penalized because he is staying up with the rest.
  • tgreenwood11tgreenwood11 Bye bye yips in 2015 Members Posts: 482 ✭✭
    Slow play is out of control and it's done at every level of tournament play. Case is point. At my club last week there was a PGA section sanctioned junior tournament. My foursome teed off behind the last group of 3 girls. These girls were top notch players as this event was for a select group of those that were the best in the section. They teed off at 12:00 noon. We teed off at 12:15pm. We waited forever. Standing on the 4 tee box it was 1:49pm. It took them 1 hour and 34 minutes to play 3 holes.



    Here's what we observed:



    - Countless practice swings

    - Forever to pull the trigger and hit the ball

    - Constantly studying their yardage books

    - Walking up all the way to the green if they were 100 yards or in

    - Aimpoint "express" on every putt from all 3 players



    This group did lose their position and was warned it didn't help. One girl was trying to get the others to get moving but the other 2, both Korean, wanted no part of it and their parents were offended.



    This is because junior programs do not teach how to maintain pace. Shot clocks are needed at all levels of play.
  • Titleist 670Titleist 670 Members Posts: 1,836 ✭✭
    This is why I love Brooks, DJ and Rory. Three of the best in the world and they play at an incredibly fast pace.



    Cantlay is absolutely brutal.
  • Golfer4LifeGolfer4Life “Don’t bother me with your pettiness” Lake Placid, N.Y. Whiteface G.C.ClubWRX Posts: 2,323 ✭✭
    And unfortunately this crap translates to recreational golf because your tour wannabes want to do the same garbage as tour guys do.
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  • BrianMcGBrianMcG Members Posts: 2,268 ✭✭
    I wish they took longer. I want the coverage to go into my wife’s Real Houswives marathon coverage.
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  • BearQBearQ Break 2 Rebuild Members Posts: 3,387 ✭✭
    Junior golf is the absolute worst for this. Many will view this as a cop out....but 5-6 hour tournament rounds pushed many great players away from this game.



    Perhaps we can suck it up to watch someone go low on pga tour. Watching kids do the Bryson/cantlay routine to shoot 82 is gonna send golf into a coma
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,495 ✭✭


    And unfortunately this crap translates to recreational golf because your tour wannabes want to do the same garbage as tour guys do.




    I don't see that much. Not that I'm saying people aren't slow here but I just don't see the tour sauce translating at any of the courses I play.



    That is, unless the tour players are 2 fisting beers from the cooler, hitting on the cart girl, checking their phones, not playing decent cart golf, etc...
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭


    Was his group out of position? They need to be out of position in order to be put on the clock to even begin with. Then it’s a warning, then a penalty. It’s almost impossible for a group to really fall out of position on tour, and when it happens they fast track it for a hole or two and catch up. With a drivable par 4 and 4 reachable par 5’s on just about every course the tour plays now there will be a back up every 3 holes, it’s easy to catch up and avoid slow play penalties.




    EXactly.



    Cantlay is hard to watch. But his group wasn’t behind. It’s total Time . Not time at address.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭
    edited Nov 5, 2018 #19
    BearQ wrote:


    Junior golf is the absolute worst for this. Many will view this as a cop out....but 5-6 hour tournament rounds pushed many great players away from this game.



    Perhaps we can suck it up to watch someone go low on pga tour. Watching kids do the Bryson/cantlay routine to shoot 82 is gonna send golf into a coma




    Said it before. That’s on parents and coaches. Prod them in the a** and/or show them what a push mower is instead of playing and it will stop. Asking my 10 year old if he’d rather be working in the yard works to get him to focus on anything. But he begs to play. Never had to twist his arm to play or get on with it. 5 hour rounds aren’t the kids. If it’s a kid. It’s the parents fault. They only get away with what we let them.



    Now some will say that will drive players away. Maybe so. But if they don’t love this game enough to play and want to play play without artificial motivation they aren’t part of the game anyway.
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  • OutBackHackOutBackHack Members Posts: 910 ✭✭



    Was his group out of position? They need to be out of position in order to be put on the clock to even begin with. Then it’s a warning, then a penalty. It’s almost impossible for a group to really fall out of position on tour, and when it happens they fast track it for a hole or two and catch up. With a drivable par 4 and 4 reachable par 5’s on just about every course the tour plays now there will be a back up every 3 holes, it’s easy to catch up and avoid slow play penalties.




    EXactly.



    Cantlay is hard to watch. But his group wasn’t behind. It’s total Time . Not time at address.




    Kind of... This has come up before and Brandt Snedeker had the solution and that is for him to slow down so the group gets put on the clock, then individual players will be timed, Sneds then goes back to normal pace and Cantlay will be "officially found out".

    Not all players have the balls to do that though.
  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,462 ✭✭
    TheInfidel wrote:


    Surely after Pavin, this guy is next for slow play penalty? Maybe some guys will jump start the "there's money on the line rhetoric" but it's bad for the game, bad for the fans and bad for the field. Cantlay seems determined to take his fourth round to a Monday finish no matter where he's placed.



    Cantlay needs penalised 2 or 3 times a tournament for this behaviour, how can he do that to his playing partners. Just standing there hopping back and forth? Sam Horsfield on the Euro Tour had some similar issues at the Turkish Airlines this week but he has been good enough to address it with a statement.




    As long as you don't get a hole behind, you can take all the time you want
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,495 ✭✭
    edited Nov 5, 2018 #22
    One thing I see is the relative irrelevancy of being put on the clock. in the grand scheme. How about this: if you get put on the clock it carries over for the next event.



    So as soon as you tee off, one bad time gets you a penalty.
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  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,462 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:


    One thing I see is the relative irrelevancy of being put on the clock. in the grand scheme. How about this: if you get put on the clock it carries over for the next event.



    So as soon as you tee off, one bad time gets you a penalty.




    But you can get put on the clock because your playing partner is slow. If you are the faster player, why should you get put on the clock for the next round?
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  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,440 ✭✭
    edited Nov 5, 2018 #24
    The above is a sound solution by Snedeker if the group really falls behind, but with so much waiting in all but the rarest of rounds it is easy to regain position. Take yesterday’s round. Group falls behind on the 8th hole and is warned. They then get out on the clock on #9. The back nine has 2 reachable par 5’s and a driveable par 4, all 3 of the holes create a slow down. A group on the clock doesn’t even have to play quickly to catch up, it’s just going to happen. This isn’t an unusual routing either, most tour courses are set up to create birdies and eagle opportunities on the back nine.
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,495 ✭✭
    Holy Moses wrote:

    Vindog wrote:


    One thing I see is the relative irrelevancy of being put on the clock. in the grand scheme. How about this: if you get put on the clock it carries over for the next event.



    So as soon as you tee off, one bad time gets you a penalty.




    But you can get put on the clock because your playing partner is slow. If you are the faster player, why should you get put on the clock for the next round?






    True true, but you get put on the clock because of a slow player in the first place. And by being a faster player, or at least one that plays within the allowable time frame, then you wont get a penalty either way.



    Personally I would rather not see the whole group be on the clock anyways, only the player(s) in question. But that might be hard to ascertain.
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    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • Santiago GolfSantiago Golf I Strive to make you Better Members Posts: 4,997 ✭✭
    Ive caddying in pro and high level am events, the rounds take 5+ hours, but jardly inside the ropes do you notice it. It seems like a normal round of golf. These guys/girls are playing w/ pressure, they wanna get everything right.
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  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,718 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:



    And unfortunately this crap translates to recreational golf because your tour wannabes want to do the same garbage as tour guys do.




    I don't see that much. Not that I'm saying people aren't slow here but I just don't see the tour sauce translating at any of the courses I play.



    That is, unless the tour players are 2 fisting beers from the cooler, hitting on the cart girl, checking their phones, not playing decent cart golf, etc...




    A few guys in our men's club are Tour slow. It's almost worse than if they were goofing around because at least you could chat. They'll back off the shot if you interrupt their 'routine' that involves a lot of hemming and hawing.
  • mister2coolmister2cool Members Posts: 3,712 ✭✭
    The real issue is with the TV networks. They have zero incentives to push for shorter rounds.



    Longer rounds = more ad $$$ = more $$ to pay for broadcast rights = more $$ for the Tour = more $$ for tournament purse = more excuses for players to play slower



    Imagine if the network said the broadcast window only goes to 4 hours from the start of the final group + 15 min for post round activities. The Tour would be jumping through hoops to get people to play faster.
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  • GMN_02GMN_02 Memeber New JerseyMembers Posts: 191 ✭✭
    Need to start penalizing players. 5% or 10% of the FedEx Cup points the player would earn from the event for every slow play penalty. This won't take them out of the round mentally like a stroke penalty would but the repercussions of losing those points over a whole season could be meaningful enough to make some players speed it up.
  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members Posts: 1,403 ✭✭


    The real issue is with the TV networks. They have zero incentives to push for shorter rounds.



    Longer rounds = more ad $$$ = more $$ to pay for broadcast rights = more $$ for the Tour = more $$ for tournament purse = more excuses for players to play slower



    Imagine if the network said the broadcast window only goes to 4 hours from the start of the final group + 15 min for post round activities. The Tour would be jumping through hoops to get people to play faster.




    The problem with this logic is twofold. One, you can only push a longer broadcast time so far before you start losing viewers. You just end of sending more people to the DVR which offers the fast forward button and no ads. Two, the network does not have anything else to show for a next program to generate ad revenue???



    Even the longest of NBA and NFL games are much faster than golf. Golf has a serious problem with this at all levels and it is killing the sport. You could argue the Tiger effect years ago led to a saturation of golf courses and new golfers who were never committed, and that's fine, but that doesn't excuse golf leadership from doing whatever they can to make the game attractive. Slow play does not do it....ever.
  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members Posts: 1,403 ✭✭
    GMN_02 wrote:


    Need to start penalizing players. 5% or 10% of the FedEx Cup points the player would earn from the event for every slow play penalty. This won't take them out of the round mentally like a stroke penalty would but the repercussions of losing those points over a whole season could be meaningful enough to make some players speed it up.




    That is on the right track. I was thinking you start assessing slow play shot penalties at the scorer's table. Send out an official with a "shot clock" with every player, and just take notes. Sorry Patrick, before you sign for that 68, we got you down for 4 shots of slow plays, sign for a 72.
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