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Who mills Byron Morgan heads

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  • Rob McHughRob McHugh Rob  1017ClubWRX Posts: 1,017
    Joined:  #92
    13wes13 wrote:

    Scotty1140 wrote:

    13wes13 wrote:


    This thread is partially why I went with slighter for my custom. Completely Handmade with dozens of progress pics along the way. I could justify the price considering all the handwork put into it.

    Not just smoothing some rough edges.


    Hand made like on a Bridgeport? Or when you say handmade you mean the CNC'ing is done by him in house?



    Byron has always offered handmades . They're unreal. Your cost and turnaround time goes up, but you can get a true handmade putter from him.




    I'm not an expert. A few pics he sent me I'll post below.


    Here is one of my hand made Byrons. One of four he made at the time - crazy good milling (sorry about the old photos).



    Rob
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  • joseyjosey  123Members Posts: 123
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    I wish my time was worth that much.
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  • alexdubalexdub Face sends it, path bends it Utah 1118Members Posts: 1,118
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    It hasn't been brought up yet, so I'll breach the dam.



    I know opinions are mixed about Tyson Lamb, but we can give the man some credit for having his hands on every piece and keeping it all in-house. Tyson is one of the (very) few putter makers who control the entire process. Availability, pricing, and marketing issues with him are a separate conversation — but we can at least send Tyson some props for keeping his putter making process fully integrated.
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  • chris975dchris975d Georgia 2006ClubWRX Posts: 2,006
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    alexdub wrote:


    It hasn't been brought up yet, so I'll breach the dam.



    I know opinions are mixed about Tyson Lamb, but we can give the man some credit for having his hands on every piece and keeping it all in-house. Tyson is one of the (very) few putter makers who control the entire process. Availability, pricing, and marketing issues with him are a separate conversation — but we can at least send Tyson some props for keeping his putter making process fully integrated.




    I'm not a fan of Lamb's at all, but that (being involved in almost every process) is one of the reasons I do go with my maker of choice, Lajosi. Everything is in house as much as possible, down to making his own damascus. That is something that I do personally put some value in when I'm buying "luxury" goods. Also one of the reasons I choose Rolex as my luxury watch brand of choice, much to the dismay of some of my mechanical watch collecting friends. They also control/make/manufacture as much of the product in house as possible, down to making their own gold in house. That type of stuff is cool (to me)....not only making the final product, but controlling (as much as possible) the WAY that product is made.
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  • JunkerJorgeJunkerJorge  316Members Posts: 316
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    So we are talking about who pushes the button on the machine?
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  • joseyjosey  123Members Posts: 123
    Joined:  #97


    So we are talking about who pushes the button on the machine?


    Alot more to it than pushing buttons. Thats like saying a formula one driver just turns a wheel.
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  • Double DodgerDouble Dodger  122Members Posts: 122
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    tleader wrote:


    I knew when I ordered that Byron received rough heads from the milling shop and everything else on my order was done in-house.



    For me that was fine, others may not see it the same way. There are very few makers who maintain 100% control of all of their product, and this produces some advantages and disadvantages, all to be debated by both sides.



    Let the finished product speak for itself.




    It doesn’t always work out that way. There have been some truly excellent milled putters that went away because they didn’t have the right people speaking FOR them
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  • JunkerJorgeJunkerJorge  316Members Posts: 316
    Joined:  #99
    josey wrote:



    So we are talking about who pushes the button on the machine?


    Alot more to it than pushing buttons. Thats like saying a formula one driver just turns a wheel.




    That was a serious question. If someone develops a CAD file, sources the material, etc. and then does all the finishing after the head is cut, how much “human element” is involved in the CNC milling process? I have no idea. I would love to learn.
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  • joseyjosey  123Members Posts: 123
    Joined:  #100

    josey wrote:



    So we are talking about who pushes the button on the machine?


    Alot more to it than pushing buttons. Thats like saying a formula one driver just turns a wheel.




    Once in the CNC machine, it is all about pushing a botton.



    Unlike a Bridgeport.....



    It doesn't eliminate the fact the final product has to be hand tweaked to achieve the desired effect.


    How do you think it makes it to the "cnc machine" alot of work goes into it to just be able to push a button at the end.
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  • Matt JMatt J  8735Members Posts: 8,735
    Joined:  #101
    If you start poking around on a search engine it becomes clear that there are a lot of contractors out there that will take a CAD project and turn it into a 3D DXF file for a CNC mill. Someone threw the number out at $25,000 earlier in the thread, but I'm guessing that was facetious.



    Wonder what it would really cost? I'm tempted to draw up a design and submit it for a bid out of curiosity. Too bad it has been a million years since I've tried my hand with CAD software.
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  • cforseliuscforselius  395Members Posts: 395
    Joined:  #102
    The quotes I have recieved from companies to make one of my designs has been around 1200-1400$. That includes material, setting up the machine and then of course mill it. Around 100$ discount per piece if I would order 5.



    It costs alot but its not super crazy expensive. I would go my own design 10 out of 10 instead of a tour Scotty if I would be okey to spend that kind of money.
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  • cforseliuscforselius  395Members Posts: 395
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    cforselius wrote:


    The quotes I have recieved from companies to make one of my designs has been around 1200-1400$. That includes material, setting up the machine and then of course mill it. Around 100$ discount per piece if I would order 5.



    It costs alot but its not super crazy expensive. I would go my own design 10 out of 10 instead of a tour Scotty if I would be okey to spend that kind of money.




    So, the more you order the cheaper it gets?




    Yeah, at high volume it gets very reasonable.
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  • delmerdelmer  439ClubWRX Posts: 439 BST Banned
    Joined:  #104
    leftyDH04 wrote:


    If you start poking around on a search engine it becomes clear that there are a lot of contractors out there that will take a CAD project and turn it into a 3D DXF file for a CNC mill. Someone threw the number out at $25,000 earlier in the thread, but I'm guessing that was facetious.



    Wonder what it would really cost? I'm tempted to draw up a design and submit it for a bid out of curiosity. Too bad it has been a million years since I've tried my hand with CAD software.




    It would probably be a couple grand if you could get a machine shop to do just one and you had the CAD file.
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  • Mr. GrumpyMr. Grumpy The Quintana Changeup, sit em dwn  2483Members Posts: 2,483
    Joined:  #105
    Yeah, woodworkers up the same creek with this new tech. CNC is like an expensive shortcut to mastering it all by hand and it can even add new ways of working the material..
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  • Mr. GrumpyMr. Grumpy The Quintana Changeup, sit em dwn  2483Members Posts: 2,483
    Joined:  #106
    delmer wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:


    If you start poking around on a search engine it becomes clear that there are a lot of contractors out there that will take a CAD project and turn it into a 3D DXF file for a CNC mill. Someone threw the number out at $25,000 earlier in the thread, but I'm guessing that was facetious.



    Wonder what it would really cost? I'm tempted to draw up a design and submit it for a bid out of curiosity. Too bad it has been a million years since I've tried my hand with CAD software.




    It would probably be a couple grand if you could get a machine shop to do just one and you had the CAD file.




    I don't think it would cost that much, especially if you do the CAD/CAM prep.
    Posted:
  • swgolf12swgolf12  1003Members Posts: 1,003
    Joined:  #107
    dwboston wrote:

    13wes13 wrote:


    This thread is partially why I went with slighter for my custom. Completely Handmade with dozens of progress pics along the way. I could justify the price considering all the handwork put into it.

    Not just smoothing some rough edges.




    For every story like that, there are others who had a different experience with Slighter. I put in an order for a custom putter a few years back (and paid in full up front) and he "forgot" to make it. As the due date approached, I contacted him and asked about the status, and he had totally dropped the ball on it. He tried to get me to accept a different putter that he had on hand, and I declined. In the end I went elsewhere. It was incredibly disappointing. I roll my eyes whenever I see a Slighter testimonial. I've had customs from Byron, Lamont and Lajosi. I've gotten in-progress pics and updates from Lamont and Kari, but never on any of the Byrons. All three were really good to deal with and make high-quality products.




    That's too bad, you've had literally the only bad experience with Tom i've ever heard of. I actually have one of the last putters he worked on before retirement. Nothing but a stand up guy, sorry your experience wasn't a good one, but it's the only bad one I've ever heard of.
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  • delmerdelmer  439ClubWRX Posts: 439 BST Banned
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    Mr. Grumpy wrote:

    delmer wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:


    If you start poking around on a search engine it becomes clear that there are a lot of contractors out there that will take a CAD project and turn it into a 3D DXF file for a CNC mill. Someone threw the number out at $25,000 earlier in the thread, but I'm guessing that was facetious.



    Wonder what it would really cost? I'm tempted to draw up a design and submit it for a bid out of curiosity. Too bad it has been a million years since I've tried my hand with CAD software.




    It would probably be a couple grand if you could get a machine shop to do just one and you had the CAD file.




    I don't think it would cost that much, especially if you do the CAD/CAM prep.




    Could be but I know the fixture for a putter head can be a pain in the butt if you don't do long runs and have tooling made.



    Just from the standpoint of getting a machine shop to run one putter head I think you're going to pay through the nose, especially when they find out there's no chance and doing a big batch. Some of the OEMs have specific extrusions made to cut down on the machine time so you're going to be doing a lot of cutting if you're going to start with a big chunk of stainless.
    Posted:
  • joseyjosey  123Members Posts: 123
    Joined:  #109
    The problem with only doing one is the finish will be sub par. It takes time and several different configurations of bit feed speed, direction, rpm and then the order of operations to get a very nice finish. Even tho it is magical computer stuff, it is still trial and error to dial in a mirror finish.
    Posted:
  • delmerdelmer  439ClubWRX Posts: 439 BST Banned
    Joined:  edited Nov 20, 2018 #110
    I wasn't even considering finishing, I was just thinking a rough head that would take some hand finishing. I had some inserts cut and faces milled in the past and to get the texture I wanted on the face wasn't hard but it did take a couple scrap pieces first to get the speed and feed we were looking for on the fly cutter.



    Securing it in a fixture was actually the toughest part of everything for the machinist I was working with.
    Posted:
  • chet schwalmchet schwalm  88Members Posts: 88
    Joined:  #111
    Here are some scenarios with which my company has experience:



    Design

    1. Some small companies are not vertical organizations. Meaning they are composed of business people or sales people. They have no engineering or manufacturing. They provide us a "napkin" drawing, a graphic artist file, or even a putter head to copy(sometimes shaft and all). That's their design. Our engineer will then create a file which will become the OEM's property. They can pay us for the design and send it to Asia to be made if they so desire. Regardless our design engineer will work with an in-house manufacturing engineer to make sure the design has the best possible COGs. Sometimes design engineers place an irrelevant to function or eye dimension which can be altered VERY slighty. This can lower machine time without compromising the final design. Many machine shops do no engineering/ design.

    2. Larger companies with their own R&D will provide a design. A basic machine shop will typically machine it to spec, no questions asked. We however will maximize the design via manufacturing engineering/ design engineering to lower COGS. Nearly always they are open to our ideas. Rarely do they ignore our input. Note, a lower COGs doesn't mean a lower margin for us. Rather we are left with a happier customer.

    3. A company will approach us to design basic heads (Dalehead etc) because they have a technology with a niche. An example I will face in a meeting next week is a company with IP on an insert material. That will be their feature and benefit. They want basic heads. The thought is a dalehead with their insert becomes leapfrog technology. They will pay us for design and prototyping and manufacturing.



    MANUFACTURING

    1. We can mill from what this thread is calling a block. 303 is easy to machine for stainless. There are materials easier to machine than SS like aluminum. It is softer. Think of some of the big headed putters, poster child is Jack's Response from 86 Masters, aluminum eliminates some issues like weight or machine time. However it may introduce other issues like durability, too light, etc.#tradeoffs

    2. A fixture is made to machine the back. Some companies want to mill the face. Others don't. They may handmill in-house but leave complex geometries to our CNC. Some just want to get a finished product in the door. Although we wont handstamp or paint fill.

    3. Another option is to machine a SS putter with sharp bumpers for example. On my previous post, look at the 3D file attached, make sure your adobe is updated to view. The bumpers are sharper than some would like. The OEM may hand polish those down, like the restored pics I posted demonstrates. Also, the OEM may choose to hand polish the mill marks from putter body. They may want us to do it.

    4. The biggest decision for some is re: the hosel. Tons of machine time goes to "hogging out" a block the size needed for the hosel and head to be one piece. The most cost effective way is to make the head and hosel separately. They attach the hosel afterwards. Welding and leaving the raw weld is cool looking. The weld can also be polished to look smooth.

    5. A very cost effective way is to cast the rough head to a close tolerance and simply mill to finish. We don't create the casting. A foundry does. The castings could also be designed in a way that the "chassis" is the same for multiple heads. The milling starts on the same chassis but multiple putterheads are produced from a single casting style. Castings are expensive. Typically foundries aren't in love with working with an OEM with a LOW volume putter company.

    6. Volume only decreases cost for us because you can spread out program and setup time to a larger number of heads. After the first few no price break is achieved based on volume. Machine time is machine time.
    Posted:
  • FairwayFredFairwayFred  4233Sponsors Posts: 4,233
    Joined:  edited Nov 20, 2018 #112
    Lots of good info in this thread I'd also add that some of the larger companies as well as a few of the smaller ones use raw forgings that are in the very basic shape of a putter and mill from that piece instead of starting with a block. This is especially common on one piece plumbers neck hosel putters. It's a way to save money on material costs and machine time.
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  • ChronicSlicerChronicSlicer  1406Members Posts: 1,406
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    3. A company will approach us to design basic heads (Dalehead etc) because they have a technology with a niche. An example I will face in a meeting next week is a company with IP on an insert material. That will be their feature and benefit. They want basic heads. The thought is a dalehead with their insert becomes leapfrog technology.








    If you were to mill a 303 copy of a Dalehead, for a guy who walks in off the street what would that cost? Let`s make it easier, and leave of the hosel as well.
    Posted:
  • delmerdelmer  439ClubWRX Posts: 439 BST Banned
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    3. A company will approach us to design basic heads (Dalehead etc) because they have a technology with a niche. An example I will face in a meeting next week is a company with IP on an insert material. That will be their feature and benefit. They want basic heads. The thought is a dalehead with their insert becomes leapfrog technology.








    If you were to mill a 303 copy of a Dalehead, for a guy who walks in off the street what would that cost? Let`s make it easier, and leave of the hosel as well.




    Without considering what the market would tolerate he could probably get away with selling it for $150 and make money. But that's looking at it as mostly just machining and material cost because all the design and setup costs have been absorbed by other projects.
    Posted:
  • delmerdelmer  439ClubWRX Posts: 439 BST Banned
    Joined:  #115


    Lots of good info in this thread I'd also add that some of the larger companies as well as a few of the smaller ones use raw forgings that are in the very basic shape of a putter and mill from that piece instead of starting with a block. This is especially common on one piece plumbers neck hosel putters. It's a way to save money on material costs and machine time.




    I already made note of that but most of them use extrusions and not forgings. It looks like an I beam only it's shaped like and L and they saw it off the extruded piece in the depth they need it.



    Chet was talking about machining castings and although that probably won't fly in the premium putter ($400+) market that's sort of how putters like Odyssey are made.
    Posted:
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