The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice

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  • FourTopsFourTops Banned Posts: 1,676 ✭✭
    Because the golf ball just sits there. The urge to over-power is great. The urge to hit "at the ball" vs. swing thru is great. The need to swing from the ground-up is lost because after-all, the arms and shoulders can easily handle the weight of the club. And there is no other sport where you stand still and face 90 degrees from the target. And there are few other sports where one can get "positive feedback" by hitting a great shot with lousy technique, which leads to more lousy technique.
  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    FourTops wrote:


    Because the golf ball just sits there. The urge to over-power is great. The urge to hit "at the ball" vs. swing thru is great. The need to swing from the ground-up is lost because after-all, the arms and shoulders can easily handle the weight of the club. And there is no other sport where you stand still and face 90 degrees from the target. And there are few other sports where one can get "positive feedback" by hitting a great shot with lousy technique, which leads to more lousy technique.




    i agree. the whole motion is unnatural.
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker Members Posts: 5,187 ✭✭
    FourTops wrote:


    Because the golf ball just sits there. The urge to over-power is great. The urge to hit "at the ball" vs. swing thru is great. The need to swing from the ground-up is lost because after-all, the arms and shoulders can easily handle the weight of the club. And there is no other sport where you stand still and face 90 degrees from the target. And there are few other sports where one can get "positive feedback" by hitting a great shot with lousy technique, which leads to more lousy technique.




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  • FourTopsFourTops Banned Posts: 1,676 ✭✭
    edited Dec 2, 2018 #305
    ebrasmus21 wrote:

    FourTops wrote:


    Because the golf ball just sits there. The urge to over-power is great. The urge to hit "at the ball" vs. swing thru is great. The need to swing from the ground-up is lost because after-all, the arms and shoulders can easily handle the weight of the club. And there is no other sport where you stand still and face 90 degrees from the target. And there are few other sports where one can get "positive feedback" by hitting a great shot with lousy technique, which leads to more lousy technique.




    FourTops: the most distracting avatar in all of WRX




    Distraction to run some cover for my stupid posts! Golfers would get better if she was the instructor....I know for sure they'd show up for the lesson.
  • FourTopsFourTops Banned Posts: 1,676 ✭✭
    Hey folks...consider this: About a year ago my pro told me to start playing with folks that are better, or way better than me. He thinks it's kinda like tennis, playing with better players improves one's game. He said (and I know all too well) that the guys who play with the same group tend to not improve. He said imagine playing with Couples, Woods, Johnson all the time....he said I'd learn more in two rounds than in years of lessons.
  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,245 ✭✭
    FourTops wrote:


    Hey folks...consider this: About a year ago my pro told me to start playing with folks that are better, or way better than me. He thinks it's kinda like tennis, playing with better players improves one's game. He said (and I know all too well) that the guys who play with the same group tend to not improve. He said imagine playing with Couples, Woods, Johnson all the time....he said I'd learn more in two rounds than in years of lessons.




    Absolutely. This is why in today's competitive athletic climate it's more important for middle school and high school athletes to play on travel clubs then their own schools athletic teams if they have desires of playing their sport at the college or professional level. Talent pool and competition expands greatly with travel teams.



    The challenges for the poorer golfer to be welcomed to play with better golfers are:



    1. Slow play

    2. Poor etiquette

    3. Slow play
  • FourTopsFourTops Banned Posts: 1,676 ✭✭
    edited Dec 2, 2018 #308
    oikos1 wrote:

    FourTops wrote:


    Hey folks...consider this: About a year ago my pro told me to start playing with folks that are better, or way better than me. He thinks it's kinda like tennis, playing with better players improves one's game. He said (and I know all too well) that the guys who play with the same group tend to not improve. He said imagine playing with Couples, Woods, Johnson all the time....he said I'd learn more in two rounds than in years of lessons.




    Absolutely. This is why in today's competitive athletic climate it's more important for middle school and high school athletes to play on travel clubs then their own schools athletic teams if they have desires of playing their sport at the college or professional level. Talent pool and competition expands greatly with travel teams.



    The challenges for the poorer golfer to be welcomed to play with better golfers are:



    1. Slow play

    2. Poor etiquette

    3. Slow play




    I play with folks who are +20 cappers at times and while they do hit more shots, they keep the pace...but you're right, too many shots will be tough for guys on the green waiting. But I can say they learn etiquette much faster because the good players demand it. But what they should do is play appropriate tee boxes.
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,155 ClubWRX
    FourTops wrote:


    Golfers would get better if she was the instructor....I know for sure they'd show up for the lesson.




    Frankly I’d buy the package of eight. With the slow-mo video analysis.
  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    FourTops wrote:


    Hey folks...consider this: About a year ago my pro told me to start playing with folks that are better, or way better than me. He thinks it's kinda like tennis, playing with better players improves one's game. He said (and I know all too well) that the guys who play with the same group tend to not improve. He said imagine playing with Couples, Woods, Johnson all the time....he said I'd learn more in two rounds than in years of lessons.




    also why tourney play is good. I like analysing other good mid-ams I play with to see where I need to put in the effort to continue to improve.
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  • Cpm881Cpm881 Rookie Members Posts: 169 ✭✭
    edited Dec 3, 2018 #311
    I agree with people posting about unrealistic expectations. Scratch+ level golf looks effortless, ball is sitting there not moving, everyone thinks they can master the game if they just put in the time. Or that you can get better at putting by spending an hour each day aimlessly hitting putts. "Bad practice" prob only gets you to sub 15 or so handicap. Beyond that, you better get good at practicing whether it's on the course or on the range. I'm guilty of a bad practice, and that's partly because I enjoy banging balls and messing around on practice green. I don't expect to get better wailing on 7 irons for an hour but I enjoy it.
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  • Tim SchochTim Schoch Swing like it already happened. ClubWRX Posts: 1,066 ClubWRX
    Golf is an imperfect fit for human beings. Some are better than others but no one is perfect. That is the challenge. We all excel differently physically and mentally. Do you best. Practice. Don't compare. Be happy.
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
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  • FourTopsFourTops Banned Posts: 1,676 ✭✭
    edited Dec 3, 2018 #313
    PorscheFan wrote:

    FourTops wrote:


    Golfers would get better if she was the instructor....I know for sure they'd show up for the lesson.




    Frankly I’d buy the package of eight. With the slow-mo video analysis.




    What if she teed the ball for you...very slowly? 180 pack of lessons? LOL!
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,155 ClubWRX
    FourTops wrote:

    PorscheFan wrote:

    FourTops wrote:


    Golfers would get better if she was the instructor....I know for sure they'd show up for the lesson.




    Frankly I’d buy the package of eight. With the slow-mo video analysis.




    What if she teed the ball for you...very slowly? 180 pack of lessons? LOL!




    Your avatar reminds me of a trainer I had back in London. It was the only time I was ever motivated to do assisted stretching... Anyway, what was I saying?



    Funny thing about improving is we golfers generally suck at setting goals, practicing with a purpose to achieve those goals, and measuring improvement toward those goals. I'm as guilty as anyone... I struggle to pick one thing to improve and then go about a methodical way to improve it. Some other flaw or some other fix always catches my eye in the meantime, and I change course. I'm definitely better than I used to be at staying the course, but am by no means ideal in that respect. With a haphazard approach I should expect haphazard results.



    Oh, and to answer your question: 180 lessons, plus weekly myofascial work...
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,395 ✭✭
    Nothing of importance just WOW regarding FourTops avatar. image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    edited Dec 6, 2018 #316
    Driver: Ping G400 Max 9 Tour AD MT 6
    3W: TM M2 Tour AD MT 7
    Utility: Srixon Z U65 3/19 Tour AD DI
    Irons: Ben Hogan PTx 4-9 Tour V
    Wedges: SM7 46F, 50F, 54F, and 60K KBS Tour
    Putter: SC Newport 3
    Ball: AVX/ProV1
  • jbw749jbw749 Members Posts: 1,126
    gatorMD wrote:




    Do you absorb your feedback or does your feedback absorb you?



    If you're a self talking, judgemental type it absorbs you.
  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,245 ✭✭
    jbw749 wrote:

    gatorMD wrote:




    Do you absorb your feedback or does your feedback absorb you?



    If you're a self talking, judgemental type it absorbs you.




    Seriously jbw, what does this even mean? Sounds like you're being judgemental about feedback and how it should be absorbed.
  • jbw749jbw749 Members Posts: 1,126
    oikos1 wrote:

    jbw749 wrote:

    gatorMD wrote:




    Do you absorb your feedback or does your feedback absorb you?



    If you're a self talking, judgemental type it absorbs you.




    Seriously jbw, what does this even mean? Sounds like you're being judgemental about feedback and how it should be absorbed.




    If you are talking to yourself in disappointment before the ball lands you are letting the feedback absorb you.



    If you objectively watch and feel what happens you absorb the feedback.



    Not hard to understand, but not many do.
  • fowlerscousinfowlerscousin Members Posts: 791 ✭✭
    One of my biggest obstacles is that I spend a lot of time practicing the wrong things, many other players do the same thing
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker Members Posts: 5,187 ✭✭
    Felt pretty good about my putting session today.



    30 minutes spent on my EyeLine - as I'm currently working on changes in my setup

    - 12' with a little left to right break

    - after I got in a groove had to make 10 in a row before moving on



    Then moved on to the clock drill. Had to make all 6 from 4' before I could leave.



    Good constructive practice with a little added pressure.
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    jbw749 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    jbw749 wrote:

    gatorMD wrote:




    Do you absorb your feedback or does your feedback absorb you?



    If you're a self talking, judgemental type it absorbs you.




    Seriously jbw, what does this even mean? Sounds like you're being judgemental about feedback and how it should be absorbed.




    If you are talking to yourself in disappointment before the ball lands you are letting the feedback absorb you.



    If you objectively watch and feel what happens you absorb the feedback.



    Not hard to understand, but not many do.




    that is really well put, thx.
    Driver: Ping G400 Max 9 Tour AD MT 6
    3W: TM M2 Tour AD MT 7
    Utility: Srixon Z U65 3/19 Tour AD DI
    Irons: Ben Hogan PTx 4-9 Tour V
    Wedges: SM7 46F, 50F, 54F, and 60K KBS Tour
    Putter: SC Newport 3
    Ball: AVX/ProV1
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,675 ClubWRX
    gatorMD wrote:

    jbw749 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    jbw749 wrote:

    gatorMD wrote:




    Do you absorb your feedback or does your feedback absorb you?



    If you're a self talking, judgemental type it absorbs you.




    Seriously jbw, what does this even mean? Sounds like you're being judgemental about feedback and how it should be absorbed.




    If you are talking to yourself in disappointment before the ball lands you are letting the feedback absorb you.



    If you objectively watch and feel what happens you absorb the feedback.



    Not hard to understand, but not many do.




    that is really well put, thx.




    Learning how to do this has lead to the best golf I've ever played under pressure in my life. I'm 51, with a horrible back and left hip, I'm playing once or twice a week, max, and I'm shooting scores almost as good in competition as I did when I was 35 - 40 and playing 3 to 4 times a week.



    Everyone has different "buggaboos," but for those of us out there who can tend to be a bit on the anxious side when they golf, learning to do this will be an amazing breakthrough.
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  • jut111jut111 Members Posts: 1,598 ✭✭
    Definitely abeliever in this type of thinking, not just for golf purposes. Haven’t seen much on how to attain it though. Any resources out there?
  • MillbrookMillbrook Members Posts: 1,698 ✭✭
    jut111 wrote:


    Definitely abeliever in this type of thinking, not just for golf purposes. Haven't seen much on how to attain it though. Any resources out there?




    Had a look around and found this for you;



    https://www.trainingzone.co.uk/develop/talent/meta-awareness-the-third-building-block-of-mindfulness



    This is the link in para 4. which are the exercises



    https://mindtime.me/listen.php
    All comments are made from the point of
    view of my learning and not a claim
    to expertise.
  • jut111jut111 Members Posts: 1,598 ✭✭
    Millbrook wrote:

    jut111 wrote:


    Definitely abeliever in this type of thinking, not just for golf purposes. Haven't seen much on how to attain it though. Any resources out there?




    Had a look around and found this for you;



    https://www.trainingzone.co.uk/develop/talent/meta-awareness-the-third-building-block-of-mindfulness



    This is the link in para 4. which are the exercises



    https://mindtime.me/listen.php




    Thanks!
  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,245 ✭✭
    jbw749 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    jbw749 wrote:

    gatorMD wrote:




    Do you absorb your feedback or does your feedback absorb you?



    If you're a self talking, judgemental type it absorbs you.




    Seriously jbw, what does this even mean? Sounds like you're being judgemental about feedback and how it should be absorbed.




    If you are talking to yourself in disappointment before the ball lands you are letting the feedback absorb you.



    If you objectively watch and feel what happens you absorb the feedback.



    Not hard to understand, but not many do.




    What if you're talking to yourself with joy and positivity? Why does it have to be negative self talk?



    So, you talk to the yourself with positive thoughts as you watch the ball land and you let that feedback, that feeling absorb you. No objectivity needed as it's pure, true and pleasurable.



    Easy to understand.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,675 ClubWRX
    oikos1 wrote:

    jbw749 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    jbw749 wrote:

    gatorMD wrote:




    Do you absorb your feedback or does your feedback absorb you?



    If you're a self talking, judgemental type it absorbs you.




    Seriously jbw, what does this even mean? Sounds like you're being judgemental about feedback and how it should be absorbed.




    If you are talking to yourself in disappointment before the ball lands you are letting the feedback absorb you.



    If you objectively watch and feel what happens you absorb the feedback.



    Not hard to understand, but not many do.




    What if you're talking to yourself with joy and positivity? Why does it have to be negative self talk?



    So, you talk to the yourself with positive thoughts as you watch the ball land and you let that feedback, that feeling absorb you. No objectivity needed as it's pure, true and pleasurable.



    Easy to understand.




    Talking to oneself with joy and positivity is not the same as dispassionately observing, which should be the goal, IMHO.



    In other words, if I think to myself, "What a lovely shot and I daresay what a lovely day it is today" as my ball over-hooks into the water to a tucked left pin, then I've done nothing that will help me get better in the future.



    The goal is not to be "positive," it's to be aware -- the entire time from the "think box" to the "play box" and while the ball is in the air, all the way until the ball has stopped moving (and beyond, if you want to keep extending it).



    We can't learn if we're not paying attention. And we can't pay attention if we're filling our heads with sayings, positive or negative. :-)
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  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,245 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    Talking to oneself with joy and positivity is not the same as dispassionately observing, which should be the goal, IMHO.



    In other words, if I think to myself, "What a lovely shot and I daresay what a lovely day it is today" as my ball over-hooks into the water to a tucked left pin, then I've done nothing that will help me get better in the future.



    The goal is not to be "positive," it's to be aware -- the entire time from the "think box" to the "play box" and while the ball is in the air, all the way until the ball has stopped moving (and beyond, if you want to keep extending it).



    We can't learn if we're not paying attention. And we can't pay attention if we're filling our heads with sayings, positive or negative. :-)




    Interesting perspective, which then leads to the question if you place no value, no judgement on the quality of the shot you just hit, how do you memory bank it for recall later? How do you transfer that feel, that feedback to your memory? One will often recall a positive experience, if they have one in their memory, before hitting a successful shot (i.e. " I love this shot, I just had the same shot two holes ago, or last week on this hole, or I was hitting this club on the range and grooving it.") as opposed to the person who recalls the ball that over hooked into the water and then proceeds to over hook their next shot into the junk. Or do you recall nothing?
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,395 ✭✭
    IMO - A great many people have either negative or positive bias in their perceptions. You know glass half empty or full. It's their bias and or fears that get in the way of learning. Very few people come to golf with a neutral frame of mind.



    The other psychological aspect I've encountered in sports and business has to do with "fear of failure." People anticipate the magnitude of continually scoring low then not scoring low, or what comes with being an executive and possibly failing, so they subconsciously get in their way of progress to prevent improvement. image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,675 ClubWRX
    oikos1 wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    Talking to oneself with joy and positivity is not the same as dispassionately observing, which should be the goal, IMHO.



    In other words, if I think to myself, "What a lovely shot and I daresay what a lovely day it is today" as my ball over-hooks into the water to a tucked left pin, then I've done nothing that will help me get better in the future.



    The goal is not to be "positive," it's to be aware -- the entire time from the "think box" to the "play box" and while the ball is in the air, all the way until the ball has stopped moving (and beyond, if you want to keep extending it).



    We can't learn if we're not paying attention. And we can't pay attention if we're filling our heads with sayings, positive or negative. :-)




    Interesting perspective, which then leads to the question if you place no value, no judgement on the quality of the shot you just hit, how do you memory bank it for recall later? How do you transfer that feel, that feedback to your memory? One will often recall a positive experience, if they have one in their memory, before hitting a successful shot (i.e. " I love this shot, I just had the same shot two holes ago, or last week on this hole, or I was hitting this club on the range and grooving it.") as opposed to the person who recalls the ball that over hooked into the water and then proceeds to over hook their next shot into the junk. Or do you recall nothing?




    Sorry if I wasn't clear: you are definitely judging the outcome of the shot, related to your precise intention. You are learning from the bad ones and positively imprinting the good ones ("THAT'S the way you hit a low cut. Yes!!")



    The beginning of the original article in this thread lays out a solid process very well.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)

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