Still Stunned After Getting Estimate From Club Champ Fitting

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  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,253 ClubWRX
    That entire post is recycled? Apparently it's an annual November thing kind of like the Lions playing on Thanksgiving morning.
  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,173 ✭✭
    DavePelz4 wrote:


    That entire post is recycled? Apparently it's an annual November thing kind of like the Lions playing on Thanksgiving morning.




    To be fair, he did change the first and last sentences AND added in the anecdote about Kim Braly. Sooooooooo, idk, seems legit2me.



    Wonder why he left Club Champion?
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  • 5hort5tuff5hort5tuff Members Posts: 3,288 ✭✭
    edited Nov 15, 2018 #64
    As if he doesn't represent CC. Anyone who can defend their prices has to work for them.



    He also called Tom Wishon small minded....unlike his post and the CC description of their process, Tom speak from experience, research, and facts.



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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,173 ✭✭
    edited Nov 15, 2018 #65
    Yeah, no idea how Tom Wishon is small minded, dude is literally one of the most knowledgeable people on this website with respect to golf club design and manufacture.



    Also, here's another test that says PUREing does jack sh!t:

    https://www.milesofgolf.com/testing-performance-drivers-with-pured-shafts/



    Anybody who posts data on a website that's a for profit operation needs to have their data and results taken with a grain of salt. Best thing to do is spend $30 and have a shaft PURE'd and test yourself.
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,656 ✭✭
    I don't get why most players don't generally know their specs. For example, I know I am over-length, heavy swingweight, soft stepped X and flat lie angles, extra wraps under grips etc etc



    Work from there with used clubs if you want to save dough



    Perhaps I am more serious and being in Toronto I have access to fitters that can hit your specs bang on .. length and lie and swingweight etc



    Get fit at CC. Find the heads and shafts recommended on the bay or thru BST ... then assemble with a local reputable fitter



    Or .. just get fit at PING or by PING and they deliver the goods right on spec
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,656 ✭✭
    Oh and I have zero time for someone that would speak poorly about Tom Wishon. Total gent.



    He has helped me twice on posts I have made in the past (a lot with specific info on TALLER GOLFERS and my idea for longer short irons) with zero benefit or $$$ to him etc.

    Even with PM's etc
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,620 ClubWRX
    edited Nov 15, 2018 #68
    cardoustie wrote:


    Oh and I have zero time for someone that would speak poorly about Tom Wishon. Total gent.



    He has helped me twice on posts I have made in the past (a lot with specific info on TALLER GOLFERS and my idea for longer short irons) with zero benefit or $$$ to him etc.

    Even with PM's etc




    Seems to always be helpful here. One of those guys who has a ton of credibility, so I agree with that first sentence.



    As for fitting, I’ll keep doing it my way. See soemthing that is appealing to look at, buy it, then try to make my swing fit the club!(obviously I suck).



    In all seriousness, much like Cardoustie, by now I have a pretty good handle on my specs. Mostly attained through trial and error.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,109 ✭✭
    TomWishon wrote:

    skyking wrote:


    Just got fit at CC for 5-Gap and 3 wedges but they estimate is over 3 grand!!!! image/stink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stink:' />



    Is it acceptable to charge me TWICE the actual RETAIL price for graphite shafts and more than TWICE for steel?...really??? On top of that a buddy of mine was at Fujikura 2 weeks ago and they laughed when asked about PUREing shafts. He was told Fujikura shafts go through PUREing before leaving the plant and the shafts will be screwed up if they go through PUREing again by a shop. So there's another $30 for each shaft that would not only be pissed down the drain but have an adverse effect on performance.



    Yeah they charged more than retail for grips too...by at least 20%.



    What am I missing? Feel free to defend them. I've got to know how they justify their prices. In CC's favor they did charge the full retail price for the clubs. No discount whatsoever. I know...I've heard this before to a degree but until it happens to you...



    Thanks in advance!




    After 40-some years in clubhead and shaft design including consulting for two of the bigger clubhead production factories I can tell you how they justify what they charge you guys.



    1) Spend a ton on a facility with fancy fixtures and 500+ shafts and gadgets and you have a pretty strong starting nut to crack

    2) Dabble with TV ads paying Ledbetter and Haney to crow about your services and the nut just got a lot stronger

    3) Then for pay back, start by capitalizing on the sheer stupidity among so many golfers who do believe that "if it costs more it has to be better"

    4) Chiefly use shafts that are so far overpriced beyond what it costs to make them that it pushes point #3 above to an even more ridiculous level

    5) Add it all up and there you have your $3000 quote for 10 clubs that likely cost 10% of that to manufacture - and that's with profit for the production factory included



    But this here is the land where profit reigns supreme so if they can charge that much and get it, then by all means why not give it a shot. Because as P.T. used to say, there is one born every minute and it seems a lot of them ended up as a golf consumer.



    In this case RIP does not mean rest in peace. And BTW the very best clubfitters on the planet might charge about half of what you were quoted. But they all are one man shops with no money to pay super teachers to crow about them on The Golf Channel. But that's where the honest to gosh best fitting in this industry takes place. Bunches of people on WRX have found one of these few super fitters and worked with them and they can tell you.




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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,109 ✭✭




    I am not a representative of Club Champion but as a educated golf industry person who wanted to weigh in on this post. Because I know CC and all other places to buy clubs well.




    Also Tom Wishon is where he is on this forum because he's very small minded and set in his ways "the world should work" but doesn't, never will, not because of ill manner but because of simple economics and business principals that every company runs on. CC or any other fitter isn't doing anything different than any other business in the world. I contend they are more forthright than most because it all happens in front of you and they stand behind it. They pay endorsers like every company on the planet, so get over that. Tell Gillet to stop paying Tom Brady so your shaving cream you use every morning will get cheaper. Guess what Tom Brady or not Tom Brady it's staying the same price. Thats economics and facts, not price gauging.



    Understand the business model is to deliver a better fit with lower scores. For years CC (and others) learned the only way to do this is by controlling the ENTIRE process, from the fit to the build to deliver improved performance on the course. Twenty years of industry knowledge and studying the best in the game, accompanied by [url=&quot;http://i.viglink.com/?key=f563715e3c9dbb67137259dea3ad1a9a&amp;amp;insertId=fd76567a633d431f&amp;amp;type=CD&amp;amp;exp=-100:CILITE:13&amp;amp;libId=joimvvzd0100jaw0000DA7z5ccqkt&amp;amp;loc=http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1559140-club-champion-fitting/&amp;amp;v=1&amp;amp;iid=fd76567a633d431f&amp;amp;out=https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=golf+digest&amp;amp;reaf=true&amp;amp;ref=http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&mid=486238&amp;amp;title=Club Champion Fitting - WRX Club Techs - GolfWRX&amp;amp;txt=<span>Golf </span><span>Digest</span>&amp;quot;]Golf Digest[/url] and Golf Magazine testing verifies their process leads to longer more accurate shots and lower scores. NO OTHER COMPANY I HAVE BEEN TO OR VISITED HAS DONE THE STUDIES AND BACKED UP THEIR CLAIMS LIKE CC (Fitting company). I'm not saying it couldn't be better, but they are the best of the best when it comes to fitting and delivering.



    Golf Magazine Study on Club Champion Custom Fitting

    [url=&quot;http://www.golf.com/equipment/2017/08/28/we-custom-fit-seven-testers-who-got-longer-and-went-lower-instantly&quot;]http://www.golf.com/...lower-instantly[/url]



    Golf Digest Study on Club Champion Custom Fitting

    [url=&quot;https://www.golfdigest.com/story/clubfitting-casestudy-hennessey&quot;]https://www.golfdige...study-hennessey[/url]



    Understand a true fitting process with all the tech, demos, people will be expensive and intensive and may not be for everyone. CC certainly try to work with individuals from my experience that still want their service in some capacity, but may not want the “Full Monty”.



    Moving on to individual concerns brought up BROUGHT UP IN MANY POSTS.



    1) SST Pure - CC are one of the original licensee and have been PUREing shafts for the last 17 years. There are many costs to doing this process, machines, licensee fees, man power, and time. I won't lie they make some money on PUREing, but its not all gravy is the point. CC truly believe as do their customers (The one's you can't believe they have and have built an awesome business on) and some of the best PGA Tour pros that SST PUREing makes a difference. Here is test performed by PluggedinGolf that demonstrates the benefits of PUREing: [url=&quot;http://pluggedingolf.com/does-pureing-a-shaft-improve-performance-golf-myths-unplugged/&quot;]http://pluggedingolf...yths-unplugged/[/url]. Remember, PUREing is optional but there is no arguing there's a benefit. It's up to the golfer to decide if he or she sees the value in those benefits. Remember every manufacturer will tell you Puring is irrelevant, by telling you Puring is true they are admitting to making a product with defects, they won't do that (Kim Braly is a friend of course he will say that, he isn't bashing his own shaft, but he does all his R&D at Cool Clubs that Pures all shafts, hmmmm, but behind the curtain he does). CC has the data above and the others can’t produce data to support their side.



    2) The Club Fitting Process – At Club Champion they will let you hit WHATEVER you want in my experience. If a fitter in the company doesn't let you, talk to their manager or just speak up, you're all adults, talk communicate. To my knowledge they do NOT instruct their fitters to sell any brand over another, or any price point for that matter. They do instruct them to conserve swings and try to not waste swings with illogical choices, but at the end of the day, it’s the customer’s money and time so they will do what the client asks. I get it, you think they are here to sell everybody something expensive, that’s not the case. Many times I have seen recommendations to the customer to stick with one of their current clubs. CC's goals from my view is to fit a customer to the club that performs best regardless of cost and it costs something.



    3) The Build Process - Understand you can buy clubs from CC like anywhere else and they are happy to do that (Not all fitters allow that). Understand they want you to build the clubs through them because there are clear and present benefits to doing it that way. They build clubs the same way they are built on the PGA TOUR, distinctively for one individual, like a fingerprint. Let me break that down further. Not all manufacturers will build to swing weight. Understand swing weight can be one of the biggest influences to the performance of the club. To how the shaft plays, loads, and you release at the [url=&quot;http://i.viglink.com/?key=f563715e3c9dbb67137259dea3ad1a9a&amp;amp;insertId=79740c5bdced0590&amp;amp;type=CD&amp;amp;exp=-100:CILITE:13&amp;amp;libId=joimvvzd0100jaw0000DA7z5ccqkt&amp;amp;loc=http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1559140-club-champion-fitting/&amp;amp;v=1&amp;amp;iid=79740c5bdced0590&amp;amp;out=https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ball&amp;amp;reaf=true&amp;amp;ref=http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&mid=486238&amp;amp;title=Club Champion Fitting - WRX Club Techs - GolfWRX&amp;amp;txt=<span>ball</span>&amp;quot;]ball[/url]. Every piece that goes into the build affects swing weight. Second, weight sorting –



    Understand, they are not knocking manufacturers. It’s just a law of numbers. When a manufacturer needs 100,000 shafts, they go to a manufacturer place the order and that manufacturer finds an overseas partner to run that job. The job is priced based on the quality and price the manufacture wants. So sometimes the quality is a great unknown. CC source all their shafts from the shaft manufacturer’s tour stock. The same shafts sent to the tour are the same shafts put in your clubs when you buy from CC. Sure there are certain outliers to my comments but nobody here knows the manufacturing world of golf like I and others do and these are the facts. CC sources and weight sorts their customers’ shafts to make sure their clubs are built with the very best.



    Last, please recognize that with CC's process your clubs are one order on a bench with one master builder, everywhere else your clubs are on an assembly line. I Have been in their production facility and it is impressive and even many manufacturers respect their facility. Not to say that assembly line is bad, I am impressed by many production lines in the industry. But the more moving parts the more mistakes. The best in the world at this game understand that and that's why there are tour vans.



    4) The Cost - CC from my angle have a very simple formula. MAP (minimum advertised price) on all heads. Understand buying just the head does not affect the pricing CC has to sell it at. The manufacturer sets their minimum advertised prices and CC have to abide by that pricing. On shafts, CC sells at MAP plus $35. Then, if a shaft needs to be PURED its $30 additional. For installation of grips, CC sells at MAP plus $4 for installation. I was told if they are approached by a customer with a different price exists from a reputable dealer the conversation can be had to match or adjust that price. FYI because it was said earlier and it bothers me Dan's Discount golf is one more sale from losing all their accounts for price skimming, theres a reason they don't show price, they can't, it breaks MAP rules. They are bad for the industry because nobody makes money, when nobody makes money, nobody innovates. You get what you pay for is all I'll say.



    5) Additional Points – When CC's control the process they back the results with their Perfect Fit Guarantee. When CC doesn't control the entire process, CC cannot guarantee the results. If a customer wants to supply the components CC will certainly give you a quote to build your clubs and build them. If you want to buy through the manufacturer, you can do that too. CC to my knowledge will take the time to make sure the manufacturer built it to the specs we provided.



    Again, from my dealings with CC they are an open book. Their goal is to get you the highest performing clubs on the market and everybody puts a different economic value on that. They seem to respect everybody's view on that as well, but they haven't changed their view. Club Champion’s service is for the golfer who doesn’t want to leave any stone unturned to get the best performance possible. It’s not cheap but neither is a AMC Mercedes or a Shelby Ford Mustang. Money creates innovation.




    Also don't forget what else in your life do you spend as much time on as golf. Maybe work, sleep, family. So golf is 4? (Be honest your on this site, it's at least 4th if not higher) I would invest in something that is 4th in my life. Just make sense.




    FYI the reason I normally don't post is I won't argue facts. I leave and you decide. So I won't be responding to any replies. Use what you want, use none.




    Fairways & Greens,




    The GolfFather





    Lol. You lost it when you quoted any golf rag. Those are the Barnum boys Tom mentioned. The barkers . Lining the lemmings up.





    Nice touch to decide to be too closed minded to stay and debate. Opinions of an anonymous person vs Mr Wishon and his gallery of experience rarely hold up. It’s true for this instance as well.

    Ping Zings wrote:


    hmm





    Posted 28 minutes ago



    ad-label.gif





    I am not a representative of Club Champion but as a educated golf industry person who wanted to weigh in on this post. Because I know CC and all other places to buy clubs well.









    Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:06 AM



    ad-label.gif



    As a representative of Club Champion I wanted to weigh in on this post. I also want to thank many of you for kind things written about Club Champion and to clarify and address some of the misconceptions brought up a lot on forums.



    [url=&quot;http://golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1559140-club-champion-fitting/#entry16409286&quot;]http://golfwrx.com/f.../#entry16409286[/url]




    Wow.



    What a tool. Ban his a**.
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  • trhodetrhode Fitter / Builder Members Posts: 1,954 ✭✭
    What I have found interesting from the first post he defended regarding shaft pureing, they always reference someone else’s research. As a company who has supported SST for 17 years, certainly they have done their own reasearch?
  • jvincentjvincent Members Posts: 494 ✭✭
    edited Nov 15, 2018 #72
    I had to re-read some of these posts a couple of times and had to shake my head.



    It's a free market so CC can charge whatever they want, but a few things stood out to me.



    - Why are they taking the full retail price of the clubs as a starting point? I would hope that a big outfit would get "factory invoice" pricing on components and then would sell them according to whatever MAP rules are in effect. Taking a full price retail set and then just chucking the shafts and grips away is nonsense.



    - Assuming they buy shafts in volume it's pretty easy to have a tech weight sort shafts as they arrive for use in future builds. Incremental cost here is pennies.



    - Let's break down the labour cost of the build for a set of irons.

    - Disassembly and cleaning heads: 1 hour

    - Swingweighting and re-assembly: 2 hours (and I'm being generous here)

    - Re-gripping: 30 mins

    - I'm ignoring the drying time for epoxy/grips since the tech can do something else while that's happening.



    So we're looking at 3.5 hours of labour max.



    It boggles the mind that they can charge what they do.
  • jll62jll62 ClubWRX Posts: 1,996 ClubWRX


    Question for those of you who have been professionally fitted.



    How much did the fitted set improve your game?



    Inquiring minds want to know.....




    I've posted about this on WRX before, but I had a comprehensive iron shaft fitting done a couple of years ago by a local independent fitter who had gone through all of the Wishon Golf training. Best fitting I've ever had. After a couple hours of testing shafts, we settled on one and then fit the other aspects of the club. Based on the FlightScope data, my dispersion at the end of this process was outstanding and far better than what it had been coming in.



    Once we had the fitting club dialed in, he measured the MOI and built me a MOI-matched 6 and 9 of the set I wanted. We tested these on FlightScope to confirm they were as good as the club in the fitting and then I took them for a couple weeks of real world verification. Once I signed off on the performance, he built out the rest of the set to the same MOI value.



    After two years of playing these irons, my handicap has dropped from +1.8 to +4.2 mostly due to improved ball striking, but specifically improved mid and long iron play with these irons. I thought I was a good ball striker before this fitting, but it turns out that I was compensating for shafts that didn't fit me. I'm also a firm believer in the benefits of MOI matching based on this experience.
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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,395 ✭✭
    Businesses with that type model have large margins built-in to every aspect and market to a limited group of customers. Some fitters don't provide fitting specs either. They hope customers are naive enough to come back with their next set of clubs to have them set up. It's a waste of money because there's a good chance that customer will buy something different next year. My 2cents. image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />
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  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
    edited Nov 15, 2018 #75
    TollBros wrote:

    rightslice wrote:


    Watched a video with Kim Braly of KBS Pureing came up he kind of chuckled and wouldn't go near the subject. Told me all I need to know.




    The process is worthless. It's simply a way for clubmakers to jack up the bill for a totally unnecessary "service". I'd rather a priest sprinkle holy water on my clubs. It has more potential for benefit.




    It also sounds like it is time for a dose of the facts regarding PUREing and other people like Kim B;s negative opinions of it. Hopefully this will help clear the air a bit.



    Back in the winter of 1996 I was the guy that SST PURE founder **** Weiss contacted for help to see if what he had been working on had any credibility or not. **** had been working in the area of shaft symmetry, meaning whether shafts really did possess the same stiffness in any plane of bending. The rules of golf have always stated that a shaft shall be similar in bending properties no matter what the orientation of the shaft. **** had found a lot of shafts that varied a lot when he did frequency measurements all 360* around the shaft - meaning he tested, rotated the shaft, tested, rotated the shaft, etc over and over and found pretty wide ranges in the frequency measurements.



    Long story short, I did the testing in 96-97 that verified that if a shaft's asymmetry was severe enough, it would cause a shaft induced miss hit of the shot. I did most of my testing using the pros who taught in the Golfsmith Harvey Penick Teaching Academy, so the player hit testing group most certainly was skilled in ball striking. I also did work with this using an Iron Byron hitting robot, though I freely admit at that time in my career I was unaware how differently a robot caused a shaft to perform vs a human. That knowledge came later in my career.



    The reason shafts did demonstrate such ranges in asymmetry back then was simply because no shaft companies had ever done what **** was doing to perform extensive stiffness comparisons on shafts all around their circumference. The shaft companies simply assumed that if they made their shafts round with consistent wall thickness per each shaft's intended design, the matter of achieving the USGA's requirement for similar bending properties in all planes would be done. ****'s work opened the door to a problem the shaft industry had no idea existed.



    Once I showed **** he was on to something, **** took the ball and ran with it to commission the development of the very sophisticated testing equipment that identifies a shaft's symmetry/asymmetry properties. **** had the ex True Temper VP of engineering Howard Butler and Howard's assistant at TT do all the heavy lifting on the project. I got to see it all as it took place and I can assure you from a technical standpoint that the work Howard and MIke did to create the PUREing equipment was extremely high end. **** spent a lot of money ensuring the equipment was first rate and indeed it was, and is.



    When **** introduced his company and its services the other shaft companies of course took note and began their own investigations. They too discovered that there had been a problem no one had thought to look into. As a result from the late 90s through the 2000s pretty much all of the quality minded shaft makers began to change their production and inspection procedures to enact their own forms of shaft symmetry testing. The net result was that slowly but surely through the 2000s the consistency of shafts from a symmetrical bending properties standpoint did improve a lot.



    But I can tell you, during the testing I did back in the late 90s, we did encounter shafts from top shaft makers that were so significant for their asymmetrical bending properties that we could install them in a clubhead in such a way as to virtually eliminate a decent to good player from ever being able to lose a shot to the left or the right. Back then it was possible to find shafts and install them in such a way to eliminate a nasty draw or a nagging fade. BTW, **** Weiss did have to go through some real screening with the USGA when he went to them with his process. The USGA was of course worried that ****'s discovery could open the door to companies or players installing shafts so they did unduly use technology to replace skill to influence the direction of the shot. So **** only got an OK from the USGA after the USGA decided to make a statement to the effect that the intent and use of PUREing was to make shafts play as the rules intended them to be similar in bending properties in any plane and was not to be used to intentionally affect a change in ball flight.



    But as Howard Jones said in his post, there will always be the outlier shafts in any production run that we refer to by the term "flyer", though typically you see more of these in graphite than in steel. This is because graphite shafts have more potential variables in material and production than do steel shafts. So what does all this boil down to in 2018 terms?



    1) There is much less chance today for a shaft from a quality oriented company to cause a shaft induced miss hit than back when this all started, but it is still definitely possible.



    2) When a shaft induced miss hit occurs from a condition of bending asymmetry, it happens when the shaft begins to go from loaded (curved back) to unloaded (curved forward) at impact. The asymmetry causes the shaft to move sideways a little as it bends forward on the line of the swing path coming into impact so it moves the head with it to cause the miss hit. That means a shaft induced miss hit can only happen for a player with a later to very late release because this is the swing move required to make the shaft arrive at impact curved forward. For players with an early to midway release, it is just not possible for an asymmetrical shaft to cause a miss hit because the shaft completes its forward bending and rebounds back to virtually straight by the time the clubhead gets to the ball. But as the player's release gets a little later and a little later to the point of being very late, this is when an asymmetrical shaft has the chance to cause a miss hit - of course depending on HOW MUCH it is asymmetrical. There are for sure varying amounts of asymmetry in shafts. Also, the higher the clubhead speed, the more a shaft induced miss hit is magnified. So it can be possible for a high speed player with a semi late release to see more of a shaft induced miss hit from an asymmetrical shaft than a slower speed player with a very late release.



    3) The chances of a shaft induced miss hit from asymmetry is greater in wood shafts than in iron shafts. And it is greater in graphite than in steel shafts. This is because in terms of how much the shaft actually bends during the swing, shafts for woods bend about twice as much as do shafts in irons. This is because wood shafts are much longer than iron shafts and wood shafts are smaller in diameter than iron shafts. Graphite shafts being made from successive layers of resin+fiber pre preg wrapped over each other, over the forming mandrel have more possibilities for mistakes or tolerance errors to add up to create enough asymmetry to cause a shaft induced miss hit. Steel shafts are made from one homogenous alloy of steel, coiled and high frequency welded so there is far less chance of a significant asymmetrical condition. Even the HF welding seam is virtually a non issue in shaft symmetry. This process is so highly controlled that when the welded tube is drawn/stretched many times in the production to reduce the diameter of the welded tube, this HF weld seam is virtually impossible to see with an X ray inspection.



    4) Many if not most of the quality minded shaft companies do some sort of check inspection to try to up the consistency of the symmetry of their shafts. But because SST PURE has patents for its technology, any other methods of shaft symmetry inspection testing have to stay away from that IP. It is pretty well proven though that there are other shaft symmetry testing methods that can weed out shafts that could otherwise cause a shaft induced miss hit and reduce the chances of this happening to be very small.



    5) So the bottom line is that for sure, the chances of encountering a shaft induced miss hit these days when using quality shafts is far less today than in the late 90s, but it still can happen. And it pretty much would show up only for players with a later release. Which all means that better to very skilled players and especially those with higher clubhead speeds are about the only golfers who could experience such a situation in their shafts today. But because of the presence of "flyer" shafts and just plain random mistakes, it is possible. What it comes down to is this - if the player is worried about this sort of thing, having his shafts PUREd would be an insurance policy of sorts to do away with the doubt. Other than that, if you are good enough that you know your swing so well that you can tell the minute you strike a ball whether you made a good swing or not, if that kind of player hits shots where he sees an occasional shot fly a little funny/odd/off line/off center hit, then it is possible that could have been caused by an asymmetrical shaft.



    And that's pretty much where it is at.



    TOM
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker Members Posts: 5,187 ✭✭
    ^^ That's a **** of a post. Thank you Tom.
    G400 LST - TPT proto
    TM M3 - Rogue Silver 110MSI 70S
    21* Fourteen Type 7 Driving Iron - HZRDUS Black 6.5 105g
    4 - PW Mizuno MP 18 MMC - SteelFiber FC115
    50, 54, 60 RC Dual Bite - SteelFiber i125
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,109 ✭✭
    Wow. What a post Tom.





    I’m a very late releaser myself. With some speed. This may explain why every once in a blue moon I’ll hit something that just stinks off the bat. Just can’t hit it. And also may explain the love affair I’ve got going for 2 years with the same shaft in a 3 wood even though I’ve cracked and replaced the head once . That shaft maybe doing whatever my release wants to see ? Wow. So crazy.



    Note to self. Keep any shaft you test and like , even if not using now. For future testing.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged   54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • green.teagreen.tea Members Posts: 401
    Can we all take a second to laugh at the guy who very clearly is a representative of CC but tries to say he isn’t?



    Back on topic, CC is useful for the fitting information they can provide. (As has been posted in this thread) It’s absolutely unnecessary to spend the excessive amount they want you to spend to build the clubs for you however. (As has also been posted in this thread)



    Go for the fitting specs, and especially do it while they’re giving discounts through January, and use those specs elsewhere.
    [font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]?[/font]
    [font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]?[/font]
    [font="trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif"]T-MB 3-4[/font]
    [font=trebuchet ms, helvetica, sans-serif]716 CB 5-9[/font]
    [font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]SM6 46/50/54/58[/font]
    [font=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]Newport[/font]
  • DRRicksDRRicks Banned Posts: 2,444 ClubWRX
    edited Nov 15, 2018 #79
    I don’t know, seems pretty knowledgeable to me 🙄
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,173 ✭✭
    Tom is a legend, jesus H christ.
    WITB
    DRIVER MIA
    LTD Kai'li 70X
    818H2 Tour Blue 85X
    P790 4i Modus 120X
    P770 5-PW KBS Tour FLT
    Glide Stealth 2.0 50/10SS AMT Wedge
    Glide Stealth 2.0 54/12SS AMT Wedge
    Glide Stealth 2.0 58/12SS Modus 125 Wedge (Hi Toe 58 KBS Wedge in test)
    TP Black Copper Juno w/ PX 7.0 Wedge
    TP5X
    Sun Mountain 4.5 Bag

  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Members Posts: 11,656 ✭✭
    Thanks Tom .........................................again



    I want to look into MOI matching one of my iron sets. Maybe my j15 mb's, info above has me intrigued. I think I partially do that now - inadvertently - with progressive swingweighting as the clubs shorten
    Ping G400 LST 11* Mitsu TI BB Matte 53x
    Callaway GBB 3w 14* Mitsu Blueboard 63x
    Ping G400 5w 17* Fubuki Tour 73x
    Callaway V-series Hwood Fuji TS 8.2s
    Callaway Apex 4h 23* Fujikura 904HBs
    Ping Rapture 5-PW Aldila NV MLTi Pro105x
    Ping iWedge 50* Aldila NV 105x
    Ping Glide SS 53* & ES 59* Wrx SF125s
    Piretti Matera Elite (torched)
  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,253 ClubWRX
    So the GolfFather has exactly 6 posts on the site through THAT screen name. All of the posts are directly related to fittings at CC.
  • Matt97GTMatt97GT Members Posts: 450 ✭✭
    the pricing is high because it's full retail for stock clubs, then full retail for each of the replacement components (shafts and grips) and then labor.





    The selling point with CC and TS is that they build to a more exact spec then the OEM's. This may or may not be true, but I'd assume a tighter range due to more attention and less volume.





    If the major OEM's were willing to sell as components instead of fully finished clubs only, then the price would definitely be more realistic.
  • 300_Straight300_Straight Members Posts: 940 ✭✭
    I think we can say the GolfFather is Wishon he never made that post.
    King LTD Pro 7.5 F / Kuro Kage DC 70TX Tipped 1" - 44.5"
    Exotics XCG7 Beta 13*
    '94 Callaway Big Bertha 3 - 9 irons
    46* SM7 / 50* (TBD) / 54* Top Flite / 58* (TBD)
    Old Odyssey Mallet
  • KMeloneyKMeloney Members Posts: 4,730 ✭✭
    jvincent wrote:


    It's a free market so CC can charge whatever they want, but a few things stood out to me.



    - Why are they taking the full retail price of the clubs as a starting point? I would hope that a big outfit would get "factory invoice" pricing on components and then would sell them according to whatever MAP rules are in effect. Taking a full price retail set and then just chucking the shafts and grips away is nonsense.




    "Big outfit"? I wouldn't call CC a "big outfit."



    Also not sure what you mean by "chucking the shafts and grips away." Just ask for them, and do with them what you want.


    - Assuming they buy shafts in volume it's pretty easy to have a tech weight sort shafts as they arrive for use in future builds. Incremental cost here is pennies.




    But they don't buy shafts in volume. If they did, then everyone would complain that they were fit into a particular shaft "because they buy them in volume." And who are the "techs" you're talking about? They're the same guys doing the fittings -- between fittings.


    - Let's break down the labour cost of the build for a set of irons.

    - Disassembly and cleaning heads: 1 hour

    - Swingweighting and re-assembly: 2 hours (and I'm being generous here)

    - Re-gripping: 30 mins

    - I'm ignoring the drying time for epoxy/grips since the tech can do something else while that's happening.



    So we're looking at 3.5 hours of labour max.




    Ok... Let's assume you're right. What's the point? What should the fitters make for putting clubs together and in order to make a profit after expenses?


    It boggles the mind that they can charge what they do.




    It shouldn't, but it's seems popular to have it be confusing. It's a free market. You either see value in it (****, there's a guy in this thread willing to FLY somewhere for a fitting somewhere, and no one batted an eye at that), or you don't.
  • jvincentjvincent Members Posts: 494 ✭✭
    Sure, big is relative but last time I checked if you do any kind of volume you get better pricing with your suppliers. I assume CC does a reasonable volume across all their centers.



    My point on the labour is that even if they charged $100/hr for the build, it's still only $350 plus material costs and the markup for material should be reasonable.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,169 ✭✭
    Toms post on Pureing actually being valuable for high swing speed players with a late release makes me wonder about something.



    The 8 iron in my set has always given me a hard time for the entire 30 months I’ve been playing my Hogan’s.



    My strike never seems regularly pure with it and it’s always a little hooky. 9 is great and the 7 is great. The 8 is not my friend. I actually avoid using it if I’m even slightly between clubs. Loft, lie, and swingweight are dead on. It’s Weird. I wonder if I’ve just got a really bad shaft in it.



    Hummmmm.... I have all winter to think about it now.
    9.5* Cobra LTD, Old school Grafalloy Blue, 43.5"
    14* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X 42"
    16* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X, 41.5" (set to 17*)
    19* Titleist 816 H2 fuji 8.8X TS 40.0"
    4-7 2016 Hogan PTx, KBS Tour V, 120X.  
    Ping i210 8 & 9 Proto 125 F5 hardstepped 1x.
    Ping glide 2 46-12, 50-12, 54-14 (at 55) stealth, Vokey SM6 60M (61). Wedges Recoil Proto 125 F5
    33.5" Ghost spider slant neck.
    Srixon Z-star XV
    Jones Trouper Bag
  • warrio17warrio17 Members Posts: 369 ✭✭
    Puring a shaft isn’t necessary anymore, I’ve spoken to several reps and all have told me the same thing. Don’t waste your money! After market shafts don’t have a spine anymore, he quaility control and the methods of manufacturing have improved so much over the last decade, it’s not needed anymore.
    SYalW6s.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Epic SubZero 9* Fujikura Atmos Blue label 7X[/font]
    SYalW6s.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Epic SubZero 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue label 8X[/font]
    taylormade_small_logo_blk.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Tour Preferred UDI 2 Iron 18* UST Mamiya Prototype Utility 110F5[/font]
    taylormade_small_logo_blk.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] RescueDual TP 2 Hybrid 18* True Temper Project X HB6 (interchanges with the UDI)[/font]
    iDRdfVu.png [font=courier new,courier,monospace]JPX 900 Forged 4-GW 1* weak KBS C-Taper X 130g[/font]
    R9admPL.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Vokey Design V Grind SM6 54* KBS 2.0 HiRev X[/font]
    R9admPL.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Vokey Design V Grind SM6 58* KBS 2.0 HiRev X[/font]
    ZSoHrb9.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Circle T 009M Chromatic Bronze Flojet Neck 35" A041795 (Gamer)[/font]
    ZSoHrb9.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Tour Newport Slant Neck Crown "O"[/font]
    ZSoHrb9.png [font=courier new,courier,monospace]Futura X5 Chromatic Bronze Slant Neck Custom [/font]
    ZSoHrb9.png[font=courier new,courier,monospace] Chromatic Blue 1995 1st Run Coronado[/font]




    [font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]i[/font][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]nstagram: @westongarner[/font]
  • FairwindsgolferFairwindsgolfer Members Posts: 616
    uscgolfguy wrote:

    skyking wrote:


    Just got fit at CC for 5-Gap and 3 wedges but they estimate is over 3 grand!!!! image/stink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stink:' />



    Is it acceptable to charge me TWICE the actual RETAIL price for graphite shafts and more than TWICE for steel?...really??? On top of that a buddy of mine was at Fujikura 2 weeks ago and they laughed when asked about PUREing shafts. He was told Fujikura shafts go through PUREing before leaving the plant and the shafts will be screwed up if they go through PUREing again by a shop. So there's another $30 for each shaft that would not only be pissed down the drain but have an adverse effect on performance.



    Yeah they charged more than retail for grips too...by at least 20%.



    What am I missing? Feel free to defend them. I've got to know how they justify their prices. In CC's favor they did charge the full retail price for the clubs. No discount whatsoever. I know...I've heard this before to a degree but until it happens to you...



    Thanks in advance!




    I was quoted $25 more per club to get a set of irons reshafted compared to OEM doing the same exact work. Needless to say, I was very turned off and will never consider them again for anything.


    @Uscgolfguy..

    I noticed your username and have to ask if you are in the Coast Guard?

    I spent 9 years active duty in the USCG from 2001 to 2010
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,169 ✭✭
    warrio17 wrote:


    Puring a shaft isn’t necessary anymore, I’ve spoken to several reps and all have told me the same thing. Don’t waste your money! After market shafts don’t have a spine anymore, he quaility control and the methods of manufacturing have improved so much over the last decade, it’s not needed anymore.




    Ive heard that for years as well but Did you actually read Toms entire post about it??



    I trust Toms opinion on it a **** of a lot more than any club Rep.



    I think it’s entirely possible to get one really **** shaft in a set just by bad luck.
    9.5* Cobra LTD, Old school Grafalloy Blue, 43.5"
    14* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X 42"
    16* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X, 41.5" (set to 17*)
    19* Titleist 816 H2 fuji 8.8X TS 40.0"
    4-7 2016 Hogan PTx, KBS Tour V, 120X.  
    Ping i210 8 & 9 Proto 125 F5 hardstepped 1x.
    Ping glide 2 46-12, 50-12, 54-14 (at 55) stealth, Vokey SM6 60M (61). Wedges Recoil Proto 125 F5
    33.5" Ghost spider slant neck.
    Srixon Z-star XV
    Jones Trouper Bag
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,169 ✭✭

    uscgolfguy wrote:

    skyking wrote:


    Just got fit at CC for 5-Gap and 3 wedges but they estimate is over 3 grand!!!! image/stink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stink:' />



    Is it acceptable to charge me TWICE the actual RETAIL price for graphite shafts and more than TWICE for steel?...really??? On top of that a buddy of mine was at Fujikura 2 weeks ago and they laughed when asked about PUREing shafts. He was told Fujikura shafts go through PUREing before leaving the plant and the shafts will be screwed up if they go through PUREing again by a shop. So there's another $30 for each shaft that would not only be pissed down the drain but have an adverse effect on performance.



    Yeah they charged more than retail for grips too...by at least 20%.



    What am I missing? Feel free to defend them. I've got to know how they justify their prices. In CC's favor they did charge the full retail price for the clubs. No discount whatsoever. I know...I've heard this before to a degree but until it happens to you...



    Thanks in advance!




    I was quoted $25 more per club to get a set of irons reshafted compared to OEM doing the same exact work. Needless to say, I was very turned off and will never consider them again for anything.


    @Uscgolfguy..

    I noticed your username and have to ask if you are in the Coast Guard?

    I spent 9 years active duty in the USCG from 2001 to 2010




    I’m guessing he means USC the University.
    9.5* Cobra LTD, Old school Grafalloy Blue, 43.5"
    14* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X 42"
    16* Cally 815 alpha fuji 665 X, 41.5" (set to 17*)
    19* Titleist 816 H2 fuji 8.8X TS 40.0"
    4-7 2016 Hogan PTx, KBS Tour V, 120X.  
    Ping i210 8 & 9 Proto 125 F5 hardstepped 1x.
    Ping glide 2 46-12, 50-12, 54-14 (at 55) stealth, Vokey SM6 60M (61). Wedges Recoil Proto 125 F5
    33.5" Ghost spider slant neck.
    Srixon Z-star XV
    Jones Trouper Bag
This discussion has been closed.