World Handicap changes - recreational rounds, card marking.

Currently I believe it's up to the club's handicap committee (presumably the club a player belongs to rather than where they are playing?) but with the responsibility for handicaps shifting away from clubs who decides what constitutes 'an acceptable person'?

Most of my recreational rounds are with a player that does not have an official handicap and doesn't want one so would he be able to sign my card? He's also not a member of my club if that has any bearing on it.

The bigger question is, if you allow internet posting, how on earth does anyone expect all these other people being involved to work?

Currently I believe it's up to the club's handicap committee (presumably the club a player belongs to rather than where they are playing?) but with the responsibility for handicaps shifting away from clubs who decides what constitutes 'an acceptable person'?

 

Most of my recreational rounds are with a player that does not have an official handicap and doesn't want one so would he be able to sign my card? He's also not a member of my club if that has any bearing on it.

The decision re an acceptable person is nothing to do with the WHS. It is a function of the club.

The bigger question is, if you allow internet posting, how on earth does anyone expect all these other people being involved to work?

What do you see as the problem(s). ClubV1 in the UK already is an internet based posting system. The internet hosts handicapping systems all round the world.

Currently I believe it's up to the club's handicap committee (presumably the club a player belongs to rather than where they are playing?) but with the responsibility for handicaps shifting away from clubs who decides what constitutes 'an acceptable person'?

 

Most of my recreational rounds are with a player that does not have an official handicap and doesn't want one so would he be able to sign my card? He's also not a member of my club if that has any bearing on it.

The decision re an acceptable person is nothing to do with the WHS. It is a function of the club.

"A key change to the way the new system will operate is that a player’s Master Handicap Record will no longer be held at the club – it will be held on the England Golf CDH (Central Database of Handicaps). "

Perhaps I misunderstood. I suppose that could just be a minor record keeping change but it sounds more like an ownership change.

Anyway I think a bigger issue is that my mate and I like to play at lots of different clubs so we only occasionally play at mine. At present that seems to rule out posting a supplementary card anyway.

Currently I believe it's up to the club's handicap committee (presumably the club a player belongs to rather than where they are playing?) but with the responsibility for handicaps shifting away from clubs who decides what constitutes 'an acceptable person'?

 

Most of my recreational rounds are with a player that does not have an official handicap and doesn't want one so would he be able to sign my card? He's also not a member of my club if that has any bearing on it.

The decision re an acceptable person is nothing to do with the WHS. It is a function of the club.

It is currently but from an email I got today:

 

"A key change to the way the new system will operate is that a player’s Master Handicap Record will no longer be held at the club – it will be held on the England Golf CDH (Central Database of Handicaps). "

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. I suppose that could just be a minor record keeping change but it sounds more like an ownership change.

 

Anyway I think a bigger issue is that my mate and I like to play at lots of different clubs so we only occasionally play at mine. At present that seems to rule out posting a supplementary card anyway.

I'm not in the CONGU system, so I don't know the current details of your system, but as far as I know there are still a significant number of details of the Worldwide system hat have yet to be announced. From what you quoted, it sounds like they're talking about a central data repository for all of England, much like we have here in the USGA system. Here, each of the regional Golf Associations is responsible for collecting and maintaining the data, and a large percentage utilize the GHIN system, which is operated by the USGA.

I'm very interested to see how the worldwide system chooses to handle non-competition scores, what I believe you currently term "supplementary scores". In my opinion, that issue is the one most likely to require major adjustments for many or maybe all golfers who keep a handicap.

The decision re an acceptable person is nothing to do with the WHS. It is a function of the club.

It is currently but from an email I got today:

 

"A key change to the way the new system will operate is that a player’s Master Handicap Record will no longer be held at the club – it will be held on the England Golf CDH (Central Database of Handicaps). "

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. I suppose that could just be a minor record keeping change but it sounds more like an ownership change.

 

Anyway I think a bigger issue is that my mate and I like to play at lots of different clubs so we only occasionally play at mine. At present that seems to rule out posting a supplementary card anyway.

Although the data may well be held on a central system, all the processing will be done by the ISV's system that your club is signed up to. eg Clubv1, HandicapMaster, Intelligent Golf. The club will still responsible for Annual Review etc. In fact most ISV's already hold the data on their systems and copy it to the CDH, Very few clubs have any data on their own server or PC. In future the ISV system will update the CDH (or its equivalent in other countries) directly instead.

Currently, as said, you have to be a member of a club to post supplementary scores. WHS removes that restriction.

 

I'm very interested to see how the worldwide system chooses to handle non-competition scores, what I believe you currently term "supplementary scores". In my opinion, that issue is the one most likely to require major adjustments for many or maybe all golfers who keep a handicap.

IN CONGU, EGA (and Australia I think), so called supplementary scores have to be pre-declared. That will be the big change in WHS for those in the USGA where players only have to be accompanied (by some unspecified person) and only put the score in if it suits their needs :swoon: .

I'm very interested to see how the worldwide system chooses to handle non-competition scores, what I believe you currently term "supplementary scores". In my opinion, that issue is the one most likely to require major adjustments for many or maybe all golfers who keep a handicap.

 

IN CONGU, EGA (and Australia I think), so called supplementary scores have to be pre-declared. That will be the big change in WHS for those in the USGA where players only have to be accompanied (by some unspecified person) and only put the score in if it suits their needs :swoon: .

I know. I did read the Q&A you linked in a different thread, and it seems that those rules may not change enough to truly unite the handicap systems initially. I'd prefer to see tighter controls in the USGA areas, but that may still be a while coming.

The bigger question is, if you allow internet posting, how on earth does anyone expect all these other people being involved to work?

What do you see as the problem(s). ClubV1 in the UK already is an internet based posting system. The internet hosts handicapping systems all round the world.

Can't post a solo score. Now there is a question of "acceptable attestor"? Yet you can post on the internet.

It sounds like they are trying to go down the "trust but verify" route, except leaving out any method of really verifying.

When I post scores, it does not require me to list an attestor or anything(fields are there, but I can proceed without any info there). So what is stopping me from posting rounds I played alone or with a guy who refused to sign my card for whatever reason? This is case of trying to be up on today's technology, but trying to put a square peg into that round hole.

The bigger question is, if you allow internet posting, how on earth does anyone expect all these other people being involved to work?

What do you see as the problem(s). ClubV1 in the UK already is an internet based posting system. The internet hosts handicapping systems all round the world.

 

Can't post a solo score. Now there is a question of "acceptable attestor"? Yet you can post on the internet.

 

It sounds like they are trying to go down the "trust but verify" route, except leaving out any method of really verifying.

 

When I post scores, it does not require me to list an attestor or anything(fields are there, but I can proceed without any info there). So what is stopping me from posting rounds I played alone or with a guy who refused to sign my card for whatever reason? This is case of trying to be up on today's technology, but trying to put a square peg into that round hole.

I would suggest they will have sorted out a procedure for attesting solo rounds by the time it is implemented. There is still a lot work to be done on hardware and software. Digital signatures come to mind. It has been said that cards will still have to be kept by the responsible committee/club at least until a solution is found.

The bigger question is, if you allow internet posting, how on earth does anyone expect all these other people being involved to work?

What do you see as the problem(s). ClubV1 in the UK already is an internet based posting system. The internet hosts handicapping systems all round the world.

 

Can't post a solo score. Now there is a question of "acceptable attestor"? Yet you can post on the internet.

 

It sounds like they are trying to go down the "trust but verify" route, except leaving out any method of really verifying.

 

When I post scores, it does not require me to list an attestor or anything(fields are there, but I can proceed without any info there). So what is stopping me from posting rounds I played alone or with a guy who refused to sign my card for whatever reason? This is case of trying to be up on today's technology, but trying to put a square peg into that round hole.

I think its important to understand that the OP was discussing changes from the CONGU system to the new worldwide system. In Canada, your handicap falls under the jurisdiction of the USGA. Even after the new worldwide handicap system takes effect in 2020, different parts of the world may still have differing requirements for posting scores. @Newby posted a link to some relatively new information in another thread, but that only affects Great Britain, as far as I can tell. I have yet to see any information indicating what changes, if any, those of us under the USGA system will see regarding which scores will be posted, and what additional oversight (such as attestation, pre-registering casual rounds, etc) we will see.

The bigger question is, if you allow internet posting, how on earth does anyone expect all these other people being involved to work?

What do you see as the problem(s). ClubV1 in the UK already is an internet based posting system. The internet hosts handicapping systems all round the world.

 

Can't post a solo score. Now there is a question of "acceptable attestor"? Yet you can post on the internet.

 

It sounds like they are trying to go down the "trust but verify" route, except leaving out any method of really verifying.

 

When I post scores, it does not require me to list an attestor or anything(fields are there, but I can proceed without any info there). So what is stopping me from posting rounds I played alone or with a guy who refused to sign my card for whatever reason? This is case of trying to be up on today's technology, but trying to put a square peg into that round hole.

I think its important to understand that the OP was discussing changes from the CONGU system to the new worldwide system. In Canada, your handicap falls under the jurisdiction of the USGA. Even after the new worldwide handicap system takes effect in 2020, different parts of the world may still have differing requirements for posting scores. @Newby posted a link to some relatively new information in another thread, but that only affects Great Britain, as far as I can tell. I have yet to see any information indicating what changes, if any, those of us under the USGA system will see regarding which scores will be posted, and what additional oversight (such as attestation, pre-registering casual rounds, etc) we will see.

Not quite true/accurate. Handicapping in Canada falls under the jurisdiction of Golf Canada, which licenses the USGA system for use in Canada, modifying it slightly. There is a Golf Canada Handicap Manual which is different than the USGA Handicap Manual.

I think its important to understand that the OP was discussing changes from the CONGU system to the new worldwide system. In Canada, your handicap falls under the jurisdiction of the USGA. Even after the new worldwide handicap system takes effect in 2020, different parts of the world may still have differing requirements for posting scores. @Newby posted a link to some relatively new information in another thread, but that only affects Great Britain, as far as I can tell. I have yet to see any information indicating what changes, if any, those of us under the USGA system will see regarding which scores will be posted, and what additional oversight (such as attestation, pre-registering casual rounds, etc) we will see.

 

Not quite true/accurate. Handicapping in Canada falls under the jurisdiction of Golf Canada, which licenses the USGA system for use in Canada, modifying it slightly. There is a Golf Canada Handicap Manual which is different than the USGA Handicap Manual.

Thanks. Understanding that, is it safe to anticipate that Golf Canada may have different rules for postable scores and oversight from the US? From reading the link to Q&A that was posted here:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1717150-whs-faqs/

indicates that different countries will continue to have different posting rules "to reflect the playing culture", but that it is hoped that eventually we'll all end up with the same.

I think its important to understand that the OP was discussing changes from the CONGU system to the new worldwide system. In Canada, your handicap falls under the jurisdiction of the USGA. Even after the new worldwide handicap system takes effect in 2020, different parts of the world may still have differing requirements for posting scores. @Newby posted a link to some relatively new information in another thread, but that only affects Great Britain, as far as I can tell. I have yet to see any information indicating what changes, if any, those of us under the USGA system will see regarding which scores will be posted, and what additional oversight (such as attestation, pre-registering casual rounds, etc) we will see.

 

Not quite true/accurate. Handicapping in Canada falls under the jurisdiction of Golf Canada, which licenses the USGA system for use in Canada, modifying it slightly. There is a Golf Canada Handicap Manual which is different than the USGA Handicap Manual.

Thanks. Understanding that, is it safe to anticipate that Golf Canada may have different rules for postable scores and oversight from the US? From reading the link to Q&A that was posted here:

http://www.golfwrx.c...17150-whs-faqs/

indicates that different countries will continue to have different posting rules "to reflect the playing culture", but that it is hoped that eventually we'll all end up with the same.

Because of the significant amount of cross-border play, Golf Canada, while self-governing, pretty much follows the same posting rules as in the US.

@Newby posted a link to some relatively new information in another thread, but that only affects Great Britain, as far as I can tell.

Not quite. Although some of it is specific to the effects on the CONGU world most is appropriate generally.

I have yet to see any information indicating what changes, if any, those of us under the USGA system will see regarding which scores will be posted, and what additional oversight (such as attestation, pre-registering casual rounds, etc) we will see.

This answer applies to all You will have to submit all singles competition scores, and you will have the choice to submit social/recreational scores. All scores will have to be preregistered

Those countries already counting BB scores may continue but it is possible that the formula will change

In the initial transition phase all countries will have some flexibility in order to reflect their own playing culture: but it is hoped that, over time, all formats will be acceptable for posting

@Newby posted a link to some relatively new information in another thread, but that only affects Great Britain, as far as I can tell.

 

Not quite. Although some of it is specific to the effects on the CONGU world most is appropriate generally.

 

I have yet to see any information indicating what changes, if any, those of us under the USGA system will see regarding which scores will be posted, and what additional oversight (such as attestation, pre-registering casual rounds, etc) we will see.

 

This answer applies to all You will have to submit all singles competition scores, and you will have the choice to submit social/recreational scores. All scores will have to be preregistered

 

Those countries already counting BB scores may continue but it is possible that the formula will change

 

In the initial transition phase all countries will have some flexibility in order to reflect their own playing culture: but it is hoped that, over time, all formats will be acceptable for posting

I don't doubt you, but to my knowledge we haven't seen anything from the USGA about a requirement to pre-register for posting of casual rounds. I still wonder if that is intended to apply to the CONGU areas only. I will support it, and be happy for it, if it happens that way, but I still have my doubts that it will happen that way in the US. I'm looking forward to hearing more from the USGA after the first of the year.

I have just looked at an early USGA publication and I must admit the situation seemed much more open ended in their wording.

I have just looked at an early USGA publication and I must admit the situation seemed much more open ended in their wording.

That's where I am, I can't remember seeing anything new since the summer. I imagine they're all pretty busy with the new RoG set to begin in a month. I assume we'll all be hearing more early in the next year.

For no apparent reason, I stumbled across this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17pBSncPnEsD3d0uYKQLOUMxE7XYF8_HO/view

Its a pretty informative summary of both the current handicap rules in the six systems currently in use worldwide, a discussion of some of the factors that had to be considered in developing the WHS, and a description of the resulting World Handicap System as it currently stands. I didn't see anything new or surprising, but its as good a summary as I've seen so far.

So, the PCC (Playing Conditions Calculation--see below) means that you can no longer just track your index on your own (eg, in a spreadsheet or with a 3rd party app) like you can currently for USGA indexes? Am I right?

> A “playing conditions calculation” (PCC) is performed daily for each course (but not each tee

> on the course) if there are submitted scores for eight or more complete 9 or 18-hole rounds

> from players with a handicap index of 36 or less. Like CONGU CSS, the DSR in Australia and

> CBA in the European system, the PCC is a statistical

> calculation used to determine if a significant number

> of players returned scores that were unusually high or

> unusually low compared to their expected scores. If so,

> PCC will adjust each player’s differential for that day. The

> adjustment is limited both in increasing or decreasing

> the differential; the adjustment when a course is playing

> unusually hard can be to reduce the differential 1, 2 or

> 3 stokes, and the adjustment when a course is playing

> usually easy can be to increase the differential 1 or 2 strokes. The PCC should be performed at

> midnight in each time zone, and handicap calculations for prior day postings will be performed

> immediately after the PCC calculation is complete. Scores posted for a date in the past do

> not affect the PCC value for that date but do use the recorded PCC to compute the player’s

> differential for that date.

If they post the daily adjustments on the board you should still be able to calculate at home. Especially on courses that get a lot of Away play.

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> If they post the daily adjustments on the board you should still be able to calculate at home. Especially on courses that get a lot of Away play.

Ah, interesting. What do you mean by them posting it "on the board"?

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> If they post the daily adjustments on the board you should still be able to calculate at home. Especially on courses that get a lot of Away play.

Yeah, you would have to look it up day by day, probably by checking someone else's postings. We don't know yet how the look of the various computational services (like Ghin for most of the US) will end up. 3rd party services like the Grint might get tied in to the system, especially for their USGA official handicaps, but as an individual at home you'll have to do it manually. Of course you can still keep your handicap the same way you always have (slightly revised calculation), it wasn't "official" anyway, and the PCC adjustment is likely to be pretty small in most cases.

> @lchang said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > If they post the daily adjustments on the board you should still be able to calculate at home. Especially on courses that get a lot of Away play.

>

> Ah, interesting. What do you mean by them posting it "on the board"?

Should be a white board or paper in the pro shop or wherever the scoring computer is displaying what the day's adjustment is.

Surely you won’t know the daily adjustment until all rounds are completed in the day

and the computer has calculated it. This is certainly the case with the Competition Standard Scratch under CONGU. Maybe the course could post on the board a list of the daily adjustments for the previous 7 days but I doubt if they could do today’s until the last round is completed.

> @lchang said:

> So, the PCC (Playing Conditions Calculation--see below) means that you can no longer just track your index on your own (eg, in a spreadsheet or with a 3rd party app) like you can currently for USGA indexes? Am I right?

I understand that the criteria for this arising are far tougher than the existing formulae in CONGU, Europe and Australia. The incidence is likely to be low and the effect on the best 8 from the last 20, minimal.

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Surely you won’t know the daily adjustment until all rounds are completed in the day

> and the computer has calculated it. This is certainly the case with the Competition Standard Scratch under CONGU. Maybe the course could post on the board a list of the daily adjustments for the previous 7 days but I doubt if they could do today’s until the last round is completed.

If that would be the case, there would likely never be a conditions adjustment in many US courses as the amount of rounds turned in for handicap purposes outside of strongly regulated clubs would make any kinda of statistical analysis impractical due to low sample size.

The PCC adjustment can only take posted scores into consideration. Where else would it get the data? I’m sure the algorithm will take the average posted scores and compare them to the handicaps of the players that played and look for a trend etc.

But with 8/20? Seems like a silly addition to the computations. I doubt the PCC will change anyone’s cap, especially with daily updates, more than 0.1. If the weather was lousy for a week and you played every day and every day played lights out, then maybe your cap would change by more than that. But on REALLY lousy days most people don’t play unless it’s a tourney and they are forced to.

Much ado about nothing.

Any word on attested scores in the US? That’ll go over great. :)

> @Augster said:

> The PCC adjustment can only take posted scores into consideration. Where else would it get the data? I’m sure the algorithm will take the average posted scores and compare them to the handicaps of the players that played and look for a trend etc.

>

> But with 8/20? Seems like a silly addition to the computations. I doubt the PCC will change anyone’s cap, especially with daily updates, more than 0.1. If the weather was lousy for a week and you played every day and every day played lights out, then maybe your cap would change by more than that. But on REALLY lousy days most people don’t play unless it’s a tourney and they are forced to.

>

> Much ado about nothing.

>

> Any word on attested scores in the US? That’ll go over great. :)

I think that the PCC might have an influence for areas which require year-round posting of scores. Its pretty common for guys in my area to have their handicap go up by a couple of strokes when they play (and post appropriately) through the winter, the PCC might smooth that trend some. I don't know for sure, just guessing.

And the "white paper" that I linked doesn't say anything about attesting scores. It only indicates that the acceptability of "recreational scores" will be determined by the national or regional authority.