So will Tiger call a penalty on himself at his OWN TOURNAMENT?

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  • Finbarr SaundersFinbarr Saunders Members Posts: 1,008 ClubWRX
    Is tiger the Pete Rose of golf
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,468 ✭✭
    edited Dec 6, 2018 #273


    Is tiger the Pete Rose of golf




    Here's my Pete Rose story:



    Last year we ran into Peter Rose in Las Vegas and he let my friend get a pic for his 50th birthday. After the picture Pete said "50th huh? Congratulations. Now you're almost dead." We were all "Whattha ****?"



    I could tooooooootally see Tiger saying that so maybe you are right! Also depends on which "hustle" they mean by "Charlie Hustle"

























    Was that good enough?
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 26,099 ✭✭
    edited Dec 6, 2018 #274
    Vindog wrote:



    Is tiger the Pete Rose of golf




    Here's my Pete Rose story:



    Last year we ran into Peter Rose in Las Vegas and he let my friend get a pic for his 50th birthday. After the picture Pete said "50th huh? Congratulations. Now you're almost dead." We were all "Whattha ****?"



    I could tooooooootally see Tiger saying that so maybe you are right! Also depends on which "hustle" they mean by "Charlie Hustle"

























    Was that good enough?




    PR bellyflop be like,







    Id pay to see TW do that!
  • lowheellowheel LOWHEEL Members Posts: 5,983 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    BrockPSU wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    So if a dude robs a bank and you can only see it from one camera angle then the person should be innocent because the other 3 show that nothing happened? Did Tiger ever comment on the shot on what happened? I don't think Tiger should have taken a penalty if he knows that it didn't happen, however who are we to say that he did or didn't.
    Mo-this shot is the exact reason the HD rule was put in place. In slo mp it appears to be scraped/pushed. In full speed it does not. You can see video of a full driver shot and slowed down a ton can see the ball compressed and stays on the face. Is that scraped?




    Dont pull a muscle with that reach...
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,659 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    Patently untrue.



    I was watching the tournament live when he attempted this shot. I was talking to a friend and we both agreed that we were shocked he was even trying it, knowing in all likelihood it was going to result in a double hit. In real time, after he practiced his tiny back swing, it seemed entirely relevant that he would not in fact execute a "legal stroke."



    I honestly think this was not that much unlike Phil running down the hill and hitting his moving ball. These guys know the rules and push the edge of what is legal. 100% he was over the line and this was an illegal stroke. Too bad the GOAT blinders were on at his tournament. Considering it happened in 2018, he double hit the ball, the player should have been penalized. But, if he claims it wasn't a double hit it's pretty much irrefutable.
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 26,099 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    Patently untrue.



    I was watching the tournament live when he attempted this shot. I was talking to a friend and we both agreed that we were shocked he was even trying it, knowing in all likelihood it was going to result in a double hit. In real time, after he practiced his tiny back swing, it seemed entirely relevant that he would not in fact execute a "legal stroke."



    I honestly think this was not that much unlike Phil running down the hill and hitting his moving ball. These guys know the rules and push the edge of what is legal. 100% he was over the line and this was an illegal stroke. Too bad the GOAT blinders were on at his tournament. Considering it happened in 2018, he double hit the ball, the player should have been penalized. But, if he claims it wasn't a double hit it's pretty much irrefutable.




    I agree 100%



    That TW is GOAT



    ; )
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,297 ✭✭
    edited Dec 6, 2018 #278
    lowheel wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    BrockPSU wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    So if a dude robs a bank and you can only see it from one camera angle then the person should be innocent because the other 3 show that nothing happened? Did Tiger ever comment on the shot on what happened? I don't think Tiger should have taken a penalty if he knows that it didn't happen, however who are we to say that he did or didn't.
    Mo-this shot is the exact reason the HD rule was put in place. In slo mp it appears to be scraped/pushed. In full speed it does not. You can see video of a full driver shot and slowed down a ton can see the ball compressed and stays on the face. Is that scraped?




    Dont pull a muscle with that reach...
    Do tell. Why do you think they instituted the HD rule if not to prevent instances where slomo video showed what could not be seen with the naked eye?

    Sure, my last was a stretch but it is a version of the same.
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • Swisstrader98Swisstrader98 Members Posts: 3,511 ✭✭
    I read through a bunch of posts here and to be honest, still unsure of things. Is the issue a matter of double hit or not or is this a question of scooping or not.



    I personally don’t see a double hit but I definitely see some scooping going on here.
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,468 ✭✭


    I read through a bunch of posts here and to be honest, still unsure of things. Is the issue a matter of double hit or not or is this a question of scooping or not.



    I personally don't see a double hit but I definitely see some scooping going on here.




    Honestly, I'm with you. Not sure why the double hit is focused on, when there should/could be a penalty via Dec 14-1a4.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • baudibaudi Posts: 641 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #281


    I read through a bunch of posts here and to be honest, still unsure of things. Is the issue a matter of double hit or not or is this a question of scooping or not.



    I personally don't see a double hit but I definitely see some scooping going on here.




    indeed. Many did. Even without hi speed cams from an opposite angle.

    But Mr Russell cs. did not see a scoop nor a push.

    To me it feels like he virtually accepted a new legal type of shot for 2019 since the new rules will allow an accidental/incidental hit.

    With only 0.75 inch of back swing and a flick of the wrists you are safe.



    Not me though. I tried it 50 times from 2 inches and every single time I had a double hit every single time.

    With my gained knowledge about my own game (read: high probability in lack of skill) this shot performed by me should be judged as a breach of the new rule.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Posts: 396 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #282
    One problem I have with it is that the ball is still in the sand for the duration of the stroke.



    If it had been under a bush and there was a harder surface, a little pop stroke could have made the ball jump clear of the clubhead. When I look at the video, the ball is dragging in the sand, resulting in a scoop or a scrape.



    I thought when there was uncertainty like this, it should be resolved against the player.



    Like some others, I also think TW missed a big opportunity to do the "right" thing. Just because you don't have to call it once you see it in slo mo doesn't mean you can't call it on yourself. Ended up saving him a stroke, which meant he would come in 17th in an 18-man field. Big deal, that.



    I sure don't see this as adding to his legacy either through the action taken, or the tournament result.



    If he'd called himself on it, he would have joined the short list of golfers who had done it, starting with Bobby Jones, and carrying on through Brian Davis, Justin Rose, James Hahn....



    Had the review happened AFTER he'd signed his card, I'd be fine with it. IMO that was the intent of the new slo-mo/HD rule, you shouldn't get DQ'd for signing a wrong card. Tiger had the opportunity to review his shot before signing, and said he saw the double hit.
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 26,099 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #283
    So TW worked the rules to his advantage a little?



    Big deal. Everybody does.



    Is like when you go to Chipotle and take 30 napkins ; )



    o5ln2At.png
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,659 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:



    I read through a bunch of posts here and to be honest, still unsure of things. Is the issue a matter of double hit or not or is this a question of scooping or not.



    I personally don't see a double hit but I definitely see some scooping going on here.




    Honestly, I'm with you. Not sure why the double hit is focused on, when there should/could be a penalty via Dec 14-1a4.




    It's just the way the Rules officials approached it at the tournament. It's all so weird. They checked the footage, saw the double hit, but then cannot punish him because he reports that he did not feel the double hit.



    Seems they could have checked the footage, decided it was a scoop, due to the short back swing and ensuing double hit, dinged him with the penalty and justice would have been served. They didn't need any HD video to determine it was a scoop. What if they determine it using SD video? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 3,769 ✭✭
    Can we get our terms in order? "Scoop" is not part of the 2018 Rules; "spoon" is, but nobody outside the UK knows what that means in reference to golf. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    Here's what we are faced with in 2019:



    I10.1a/1 – Examples of Pushing, Scraping or Scooping



    These terms have overlapping meanings but can be defined through these three examples of using the club in a manner not allowed by the Rule:



    A player holes a short putt by striking the ball with the bottom of the clubhead, using a motion similar to that used in making a shot in billiards or shuffleboard. Moving the ball like this is a push.



    A player moves the club along the surface of the ground pulling it towards him or her. Moving the ball like this is a scrape.



    A player slides a club beneath and very close to the ball. The player then lifts and moves the ball by use of a forward and upward motion. Moving the ball like this is a scoop.
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 26,099 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:

    Vindog wrote:



    I read through a bunch of posts here and to be honest, still unsure of things. Is the issue a matter of double hit or not or is this a question of scooping or not.



    I personally don't see a double hit but I definitely see some scooping going on here.




    Honestly, I'm with you. Not sure why the double hit is focused on, when there should/could be a penalty via Dec 14-1a4.




    It's just the way the Rules officials approached it at the tournament. It's all so weird. They checked the footage, saw the double hit, but then cannot punish him because he reports that he did not feel the double hit.



    Seems they could have checked the footage, decided it was a scoop, due to the short back swing and ensuing double hit, dinged him with the penalty and justice would have been served. They didn't need any HD video to determine it was a scoop. What if they determine it using SD video? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    "Looking at it in regular speed on a high-definition television, you couldn't tell that at all. But when you slow it down, you could see where the ball did stay on the clubface quite a bit of time and it looked like he might have hit it twice. But there's no way he could tell that."



    http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/25420087/tiger-woods-hits-ball-twice-shot-hero-world-challenge-avoids-penalty
  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 2,921 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    Patently untrue.



    I was watching the tournament live when he attempted this shot. I was talking to a friend and we both agreed that we were shocked he was even trying it, knowing in all likelihood it was going to result in a double hit. In real time, after he practiced his tiny back swing, it seemed entirely relevant that he would not in fact execute a "legal stroke."



    I honestly think this was not that much unlike Phil running down the hill and hitting his moving ball. These guys know the rules and push the edge of what is legal. 100% he was over the line and this was an illegal stroke. Too bad the GOAT blinders were on at his tournament. Considering it happened in 2018, he double hit the ball, the player should have been penalized. But, if he claims it wasn't a double hit it's pretty much irrefutable.




    How could you make that determination watching on television and not actually examining the lie, etc. in person?



    Should guys not play shots from hazards because there's a possibility they will accidentally ground their club?



    Sorry but you're in no position to tell a PGA Tour player what shot they should or should not attempt, based on the possibility of breaking a rule. From your couch.



    Could you see a double hit with the naked eye in real time?



    If you think Tiger is lying when he says he felt that he played a legal shot (at the time he hit it), then take it up with him or show us some evidence that he's lying. The rules officials were a lot closer to the situation than you and they deemed it no penalty.
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,659 ✭✭

    leftyDH04 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    Patently untrue.



    I was watching the tournament live when he attempted this shot. I was talking to a friend and we both agreed that we were shocked he was even trying it, knowing in all likelihood it was going to result in a double hit. In real time, after he practiced his tiny back swing, it seemed entirely relevant that he would not in fact execute a "legal stroke."



    I honestly think this was not that much unlike Phil running down the hill and hitting his moving ball. These guys know the rules and push the edge of what is legal. 100% he was over the line and this was an illegal stroke. Too bad the GOAT blinders were on at his tournament. Considering it happened in 2018, he double hit the ball, the player should have been penalized. But, if he claims it wasn't a double hit it's pretty much irrefutable.




    How could you make that determination watching on television and not actually examining the lie, etc. in person?



    Should guys not play shots from hazards because there's a possibility they will accidentally ground their club?



    Sorry but you're in no position to tell a PGA Tour player what shot they should or should not attempt, based on the possibility of breaking a rule. From your couch.



    Could you see a double hit with the naked eye in real time?



    If you think Tiger is lying when he says he felt that he played a legal shot (at the time he hit it), then take it up with him or show us some evidence that he's lying. The rules officials were a lot closer to the situation than you and they deemed it no penalty.




    Even Tiger Woods can't take a club back 2 inches in a particularly special way. Go out and try it. There was no way the sandy lie was going to help.



    In real time, it looked like a scoop. Absolutely. Read the rule again...



    If you make anything other than clean normal contact it's not a legal stroke. Directly from the Royal and Ancient 14-1a/4



    If a ball is fairly struck at, there is only momentary contact between the clubhead and the ball or whatever intervenes between the clubhead and the ball.



    https://www.randa.org/rules-of-golf/mainrules/14-striking-the-ball/subrules/1-general#alldecisions



    Sorry not sorry. I've been a fan of Tiger since I saw him win his second Masters in Augusta. But, I don't let being a fan boy get in my way of knowing what I saw. The argument that the rules officials were so "close" to the situation that they couldn't have got it wrong is laughable.
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 26,099 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:


    leftyDH04 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    Patently untrue.



    I was watching the tournament live when he attempted this shot. I was talking to a friend and we both agreed that we were shocked he was even trying it, knowing in all likelihood it was going to result in a double hit. In real time, after he practiced his tiny back swing, it seemed entirely relevant that he would not in fact execute a "legal stroke."



    I honestly think this was not that much unlike Phil running down the hill and hitting his moving ball. These guys know the rules and push the edge of what is legal. 100% he was over the line and this was an illegal stroke. Too bad the GOAT blinders were on at his tournament. Considering it happened in 2018, he double hit the ball, the player should have been penalized. But, if he claims it wasn't a double hit it's pretty much irrefutable.




    How could you make that determination watching on television and not actually examining the lie, etc. in person?



    Should guys not play shots from hazards because there's a possibility they will accidentally ground their club?



    Sorry but you're in no position to tell a PGA Tour player what shot they should or should not attempt, based on the possibility of breaking a rule. From your couch.



    Could you see a double hit with the naked eye in real time?



    If you think Tiger is lying when he says he felt that he played a legal shot (at the time he hit it), then take it up with him or show us some evidence that he's lying. The rules officials were a lot closer to the situation than you and they deemed it no penalty.




    Even Tiger Woods can't take a club back 2 inches in a particularly special way. Go out and try it. There was no way the sandy lie was going to help.



    In real time, it looked like a scoop. Absolutely. Read the rule again...



    If you make anything other than clean normal contact it's not a legal stroke. Directly from the Royal and Ancient 14-1a/4



    If a ball is fairly struck at, there is only momentary contact between the clubhead and the ball or whatever intervenes between the clubhead and the ball.



    https://www.randa.or...al#alldecisions



    Sorry not sorry. I've been a fan of Tiger since I saw him win his second Masters in Augusta. But, I don't let being a fan boy get in my way of knowing what I saw. The argument that the rules officials were so "close" to the situation that they couldn't have got it wrong is laughable.




    So, when the official says,



    "Looking at it in regular speed on a high-definition television, you couldn't tell that at all. But when you slow it down, you could see where the ball did stay on the clubface quite a bit of time and it looked like he might have hit it twice. But there's no way he could tell that."



    http://www.espn.com/...-avoids-penalty





    you think they are lying for Tiger and would have given someone else a penalty?



    He is very clear on what he thinks so I'm wondering if you think he is either incompetent or a liar? Or something else.



    Just curious ; )
  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 2,921 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:


    leftyDH04 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    Patently untrue.



    I was watching the tournament live when he attempted this shot. I was talking to a friend and we both agreed that we were shocked he was even trying it, knowing in all likelihood it was going to result in a double hit. In real time, after he practiced his tiny back swing, it seemed entirely relevant that he would not in fact execute a "legal stroke."



    I honestly think this was not that much unlike Phil running down the hill and hitting his moving ball. These guys know the rules and push the edge of what is legal. 100% he was over the line and this was an illegal stroke. Too bad the GOAT blinders were on at his tournament. Considering it happened in 2018, he double hit the ball, the player should have been penalized. But, if he claims it wasn't a double hit it's pretty much irrefutable.




    How could you make that determination watching on television and not actually examining the lie, etc. in person?



    Should guys not play shots from hazards because there's a possibility they will accidentally ground their club?



    Sorry but you're in no position to tell a PGA Tour player what shot they should or should not attempt, based on the possibility of breaking a rule. From your couch.



    Could you see a double hit with the naked eye in real time?



    If you think Tiger is lying when he says he felt that he played a legal shot (at the time he hit it), then take it up with him or show us some evidence that he's lying. The rules officials were a lot closer to the situation than you and they deemed it no penalty.




    Even Tiger Woods can't take a club back 2 inches in a particularly special way. Go out and try it. There was no way the sandy lie was going to help.



    In real time, it looked like a scoop. Absolutely. Read the rule again...



    If you make anything other than clean normal contact it's not a legal stroke. Directly from the Royal and Ancient 14-1a/4



    If a ball is fairly struck at, there is only momentary contact between the clubhead and the ball or whatever intervenes between the clubhead and the ball.



    https://www.randa.or...al#alldecisions



    Sorry not sorry. I've been a fan of Tiger since I saw him win his second Masters in Augusta. But, I don't let being a fan boy get in my way of knowing what I saw. The argument that the rules officials were so "close" to the situation that they couldn't have got it wrong is laughable.




    I never said they "couldn't have got it wrong".



    But the idea that you got it right from watching on TV and they didn't (when it's what they do for a living and were the only ones who had a discussion with Tiger about it), is what's laughable.



    You're just making stuff up. Where did you derive a 2 inch backswing? Have any photos to show this?



    Feherty called it a 6 inch backswing but I'm not sure it was ever visible on TV.



    Do you really not think you can strike a ball legally with a short backswing? What do you call a putt?



    I can legally strike a ball with a 1 millimeter backswing. The ball might only go an inch but it's a legal stroke.



    What you think you saw doesn't carry any weight whatsoever. We've got 1,000 other people saying they didn't see a "scoop" in real time. So where does that leave us?



    At the end of the day we're supposed to trust the player to be honest and the rules officials to do their job. And all of the evidence suggests that's what happened.
  • Pleasedwith3puttsPleasedwith3putts Members Posts: 1,712 ✭✭


    I can legally strike a ball with a 1 millimeter backswing. The ball might only go an inch but it's a legal stroke.




    How long a backswing do you think you need to hit it 15ft legally out of a bush?
  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 2,921 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #292



    I can legally strike a ball with a 1 millimeter backswing. The ball might only go an inch but it's a legal stroke.




    How long a backswing do you think you need to hit it 15ft legally out of a bush?




    Are you referring specifically to the lie that Tiger had?



    [media=]



    If you watch this video it seems like Tiger has room to waggle his clubhead and move it freely behind the ball in a 6+ inch area. I don't think it's unreasonable if he thought, "When I make the actual stroke I should be able to force the club back at least a foot or so and hit the ball out".



    I think I would personally need about 1.5 foot backswing to advance it around 15 feet. But I'm obviously just guesstimating. I can't make a judgment about this exact shot unless I was there and had a first person view from Tiger's angle. None of us can see from the video exactly how much room he had behind the ball to swing the club back.



    But that ball is lying cleanly and there is at least some room to make a small backswing. I wouldn't want to take an unplayable with the ball lying cleanly like that.



    In hindsight, I think he should have moved the crowd, and just addressed the ball normally with like 6 iron and just taken a huge full swing lash at it.
  • Pleasedwith3puttsPleasedwith3putts Members Posts: 1,712 ✭✭
    This is the lie he had so not clean and the second image was where he started his backswing from so anything between 4 and 6" max.



    That's the issue for me, the chances of pulling off a legitimate clean stroke moving the ball that far from that lie with such a short swing are just negligible. I get that a ruling was made in his favour and that's that, for me he got away with one as the shot didn't look on and it looked bad in real time from the front angle I was watching. It is what it is now, I just respond here when guys suggest it wasn't a foul strike, even he accepts it was but it gets overturned by the officials opinion of real time vs slo-mo so it's a no penalty foul strike.
  • dropkickeddropkicked Members Posts: 477 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:




    Even Tiger Woods can't take a club back 2 inches in a particularly special way. Go out and try it.


    Hey Pro, Tiger has 80 tour wins with 14 major titles. What's your tour total?
  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 2,921 ✭✭


    This is the lie he had so not clean and the second image was where he started his backswing from so anything between 4 and 6" max.



    That's the issue for me, the chances of pulling off a legitimate clean stroke moving the ball that far from that lie with such a short swing are just negligible. I get that a ruling was made in his favour and that's that, for me he got away with one as the shot didn't look on and it looked bad in real time from the front angle I was watching. It is what it is now, I just respond here when guys suggest it wasn't a foul strike, even he accepts it was but it gets overturned by the officials opinion of real time vs slo-mo so it's a no penalty foul strike.




    Yeah it just seems to me that no one can exactly determine what the odds were of "pulling off a legitimate clean stroke".



    You say negligible. Okay. What % would you say? What if Tiger felt there was a 40% chance he would make a clean strike? Should he not attempt it?



    What if he didn't even consider the possibility and just felt 100% confident he could strike it cleanly? How can we possibly know?



    What we know for sure is that Tiger said "First of all, I didn't feel like I violated any rules. I felt like I was trying to play a shot. But the rules committee pulled me aside and said 'Hey, there may be a violation there' so we took a look at it," Woods told Golf Channel's Steve Sands. "I didn't feel like I hit it twice, it happened so fast and it was such a short motion, but under high def and super slow-mo, you can see it. I made contact twice, but there was no, they'll explain it to you. There is no violation, I guess, so I shot what I shot today."



    So I don't see why people keep re-hashing it.



    I've said it before, if you think Tiger lied then okay. Just say that. And do you have any evidence that he lied? Besides that, I don't see what argument people can make. Everything else people are saying is just noise and nothing to do with the actual rules.



    Honestly I guarantee if we looked at all of our rounds in slow-mo we would find rules violations. And we'd be genuinely shocked and say we didn't realize it at the time. When you're caught up in a round and playing shots, that's a totally different perspective than watching it later in slow-mo.



    It's not fair to project our perspective onto Tiger and draw an apples to apples comparison. His vantage point, in the moment, is very different than the one we have.
  • lowheellowheel LOWHEEL Members Posts: 5,983 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #296
    bscinstnct wrote:


    So TW worked the rules to his advantage a little?



    Big deal. Everybody does.



    Is like when you go to Chipotle and take 30 napkins ; )



    o5ln2At.png




    giphy.gif


    dropkicked wrote:

    leftyDH04 wrote:


    Even Tiger Woods can't take a club back 2 inches in a particularly special way. Go out and try it.


    Hey Pro, Tiger has 80 tour wins with 14 major titles. What's your tour total?




    you sure showed him...
  • nbg352nbg352 Members Posts: 8,320 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #297
    Dpavs wrote:

    nbg352 wrote:


    Tiger didn't "scoop" or "push" or "drag". Officials said he made a proper though abbreviated stroke. So, why are we even discussing anything other than the legal stroke that was initially made?




    Because the decision was questionable at best? Of course their decision stands but we can second guess that decision all we want right?
    The day you are as qualified as those officials, sure......second guess all you want.
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  • nbg352nbg352 Members Posts: 8,320 ✭✭
    leftyDH04 wrote:

    Vindog wrote:



    I read through a bunch of posts here and to be honest, still unsure of things. Is the issue a matter of double hit or not or is this a question of scooping or not.



    I personally don't see a double hit but I definitely see some scooping going on here.




    Honestly, I'm with you. Not sure why the double hit is focused on, when there should/could be a penalty via Dec 14-1a4.




    It's just the way the Rules officials approached it at the tournament. It's all so weird. They checked the footage, saw the double hit, but then cannot punish him because he reports that he did not feel the double hit.



    Seems they could have checked the footage, decided it was a scoop, due to the short back swing and ensuing double hit, dinged him with the penalty and justice would have been served. They didn't need any HD video to determine it was a scoop. What if they determine it using SD video? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    They DID check the footage. It's how they came to the decision that they did.
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  • nbg352nbg352 Members Posts: 8,320 ✭✭

    Shilgy wrote:

    BrockPSU wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    baudi wrote:


    All water under bridge. but I tried Tigers shot about 50 times with ±2 inches backswing. Granted I am not as good as Tiger :-) but there is no chance you can hit the ball and create immediate contact and release with out touching the ball twice. Ball moves too slow.Only a pop stroke or a stab works but then the ball does not go far.



    Now there is a ruling which states a strike with .5 inch backstroke is considered to be a push. If the 0,5 inch is a hard condition the rule authorities should reconsider the complete case.

    Btw i do not think the Tiger cheated or anything like that but imho he should have taken the penalty stroke. Only to prove his moral authority. If Tiger wants to win in capitals, this was his opportunity.
    Just to be clear....there was no crime committed but he should plead guilty anyways? Just to be a moral authority?



    The odd thing in this case is that if they would not have shown the slomo front angle at all there would be absolutely no outrage on this shot at all. Full speed from the other angles there have been no complaints about the shot.




    So if a dude robs a bank and you can only see it from one camera angle then the person should be innocent because the other 3 show that nothing happened? Did Tiger ever comment on the shot on what happened? I don't think Tiger should have taken a penalty if he knows that it didn't happen, however who are we to say that he did or didn't.
    Mo-this shot is the exact reason the HD rule was put in place. In slo mp it appears to be scraped/pushed. In full speed it does not. You can see video of a full driver shot and slowed down a ton can see the ball compressed and stays on the face. Is that scraped?


    Are you saying he compressed the ball with that little shove?
    Do you really think that is what he's saying? I don't.
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  • Pleasedwith3puttsPleasedwith3putts Members Posts: 1,712 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #300



    This is the lie he had so not clean and the second image was where he started his backswing from so anything between 4 and 6" max.



    That's the issue for me, the chances of pulling off a legitimate clean stroke moving the ball that far from that lie with such a short swing are just negligible. I get that a ruling was made in his favour and that's that, for me he got away with one as the shot didn't look on and it looked bad in real time from the front angle I was watching. It is what it is now, I just respond here when guys suggest it wasn't a foul strike, even he accepts it was but it gets overturned by the officials opinion of real time vs slo-mo so it's a no penalty foul strike.




    Yeah it just seems to me that no one can exactly determine what the odds were of "pulling off a legitimate clean stroke".



    You say negligible. Okay. What % would you say? What if Tiger felt there was a 40% chance he would make a clean strike? Should he not attempt it?



    What if he didn't even consider the possibility and just felt 100% confident he could strike it cleanly? How can we possibly know?



    What we know for sure is that Tiger said "First of all, I didn't feel like I violated any rules. I felt like I was trying to play a shot. But the rules committee pulled me aside and said 'Hey, there may be a violation there' so we took a look at it," Woods told Golf Channel's Steve Sands. "I didn't feel like I hit it twice, it happened so fast and it was such a short motion, but under high def and super slow-mo, you can see it. I made contact twice, but there was no, they'll explain it to you. There is no violation, I guess, so I shot what I shot today."



    So I don't see why people keep re-hashing it.



    I've said it before, if you think Tiger lied then okay. Just say that. And do you have any evidence that he lied? Besides that, I don't see what argument people can make. Everything else people are saying is just noise and nothing to do with the actual rules.



    Honestly I guarantee if we looked at all of our rounds in slow-mo we would find rules violations. And we'd be genuinely shocked and say we didn't realize it at the time. When you're caught up in a round and playing shots, that's a totally different perspective than watching it later in slow-mo.



    It's not fair to project our perspective onto Tiger and draw an apples to apples comparison. His vantage point, in the moment, is very different than the one we have.




    My view (again) FWIW



    I rate his (or anyone elses) chances at less than 5% to move the ball as far as he did with a genuinely clean strike with that length backswing and all other factors the same.

    If I was rating the chances of moving it no more than say 6ft then I'd be at maybe 35- 50% using a stabbbing stroke but the fact that he chose to play it rather than take a two club length drop (my 6ft) means he had to have been trying to move it materially more than 6ft otherwise why not just take the drop risk free?

    I believe him when he says he didn't feel a double strike as I don't think it was a double strike but a scoop so would not have felt two strikes

    Did it feel like a scoop then? - only he knows for sure but it may well have felt a strange contact given how long the ball stayed on the club, or the frond may have masked the whole contact

    I have no idea why he took that shot on, a drop or a play forwards looked more obvious

    Equally who knows why golfers take shots on at times. I've nothing to suggest he didn't think he could pull it off in the heat of the moment and deliberately hit a foul ball but lets just say if I was LaCava and he was looking at that shot in a major I would have done my best to call him off.



    We can all debate this and without TW going back with a bag of balls we'll never know what the correct % is. But DO have try just for curiosities sake at moving a ball 15ft out of the edge of semi-rough (or anywhere that restricts clean impact and has some resistance ahead of the ball) off your knees and see how you get on with a 4" backswing. I don't care if you are GOAT or club hacker, it's crazy difficult to do so cleanly.
  • lowheellowheel LOWHEEL Members Posts: 5,983 ✭✭
    nbg352 wrote:

    Dpavs wrote:

    nbg352 wrote:


    Tiger didn't "scoop" or "push" or "drag". Officials said he made a proper though abbreviated stroke. So, why are we even discussing anything other than the legal stroke that was initially made?




    Because the decision was questionable at best? Of course their decision stands but we can second guess that decision all we want right?
    The day you are as qualified as those officials, sure......second guess all you want.




    My god man, can you not see the smugness in your post? 99.99% of this board is neither a pro golfer or rules official. so the thread should have only 1 or 2 posts according to you...
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