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rogolf

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Rogolf, here's one for You.

 

I am 254% sure I know the correct answer but in my country this issue is just about to escalate so I just throw it in here.

 

Here is the question:

 

'Player A putts and player B is attending the flagstick at the request of player A. As it happens, B is distracted by a topless female golfer passing by forgetting to lift the flagstick and A's ball collides with the flagstick.

 

Q1: Is there a penalty for the player A?

Q2: If so, where is that found in the Rules 2019?'

 

I am especially interested in Q2...

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My view exactly.

 

Unfortunately, there is a well esteemed referee in my country who still lives in the past, and says there is a penalty for the player as the spirit of the rule is that the player is responsible for the actions of the attendee.

 

Any comment to that?

My comment is that the lack of penalty for accidentally letting the ball hit the attended flagstick (or the attender for that matter) is a fine extension of the new associated lack of penalty for deliberately hitting the flagstick left in the hole.

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My view exactly.

 

Unfortunately, there is a well esteemed referee in my country who still lives in the past, and says there is a penalty for the player as the spirit of the rule is that the player is responsible for the actions of the attendee.

 

Any comment to that?

 

The issue was discussed in our autumn meeting and confirmed by the Most Esteemed referee in the country. You could remind him of that.

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I think this question and answer is a no brainer (despite some experienced referee getting it wrong - big deal, that will always be the case coz we are dealing with the golf rules) but there is a more challenging variant on the question which the 2019 material fails to guide on explicitly.

Situation: Player advises wants the flagstick attended and then putts while another player attends. As the ball is in motion and approaching the flagstick fast, the player screams "leave it in, leave it in" and the person attending lets it go and gets out of the way. The ball hits the flagstick. What is the ruling ?

The first point is this would seem to be a deliberate deflect/stop situation, with the attendee being the agent under the authority of the player who putted. So this appears to be R13.2b(2) and the general penalty applies, but to whom? We have no guidance specific to this situation but the only options seem to be the player alone (the player authorised the illegitimate action) or the player and the attendee, unless we get some guidance that a player that breaches 13.2b/11.2 under the authority of another player is absolved of the crime.

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I have learned that this entire issue has been a big misunderstanding created by a third person delivering the messages. In other words, two people are presenting two different questions but believing the questions are the same. Naturally there can be no one answer to two different questions, thus this confusion.

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Situation: Player advises wants the flagstick attended and then putts while another player attends. As the ball is in motion and approaching the flagstick fast, the player screams "leave it in, leave it in" and the person attending lets it go and gets out of the way. The ball hits the flagstick. What is the ruling ?

The first point is this would seem to be a deliberate deflect/stop situation, with the attendee being the agent under the authority of the player who putted. So this appears to be R13.2b(2) and the general penalty applies, but to whom? We have no guidance specific to this situation but the only options seem to be the player alone (the player authorised the illegitimate action) or the player and the attendee, unless we get some guidance that a player that breaches 13.2b/11.2 under the authority of another player is absolved of the crime.

 

This particular issue is being discussed elsewhere with no consensus so far.

 

My view is based on R1.3c(1). As the attendee acts at specific instructions by the player, the player is subject to penalty, not the attendee.

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Rogolf, here's one for You.

 

I am 254% sure I know the correct answer but in my country this issue is just about to escalate so I just throw it in here.

 

Here is the question:

 

'Player A putts and player B is attending the flagstick at the request of player A. As it happens, B is distracted by a topless female golfer passing by forgetting to lift the flagstick and A's ball collides with the flagstick.

 

Q1: Is there a penalty for the player A?

Q2: If so, where is that found in the Rules 2019?'

 

I am especially interested in Q2...

 

Forget the rule, I just want to see a picture of the girl.

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I have learned that this entire issue has been a big misunderstanding created by a third person delivering the messages. In other words, two people are presenting two different questions but believing the questions are the same. Naturally there can be no one answer to two different questions, thus this confusion.

Perhaps so, but this variant is actually the better question in terms of requiring an answer that is not currently before us.
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Situation: Player advises wants the flagstick attended and then putts while another player attends. As the ball is in motion and approaching the flagstick fast, the player screams "leave it in, leave it in" and the person attending lets it go and gets out of the way. The ball hits the flagstick. What is the ruling ?

The first point is this would seem to be a deliberate deflect/stop situation, with the attendee being the agent under the authority of the player who putted. So this appears to be R13.2b(2) and the general penalty applies, but to whom? We have no guidance specific to this situation but the only options seem to be the player alone (the player authorised the illegitimate action) or the player and the attendee, unless we get some guidance that a player that breaches 13.2b/11.2 under the authority of another player is absolved of the crime.

 

This particular issue is being discussed elsewhere with no consensus so far.

 

My view is based on R1.3c(1). As the attendee acts at specific instructions by the player, the player is subject to penalty, not the attendee.

I agree that R1.3c(1) provides an authority to penalise the player (if you can't find the authority in R13 and R11) but it does not get the attendee off the hook. That will require an explicit statement from the powers that be. There have been existing rulings that penalise player and fellow competitor currently in the situation of current R1-2 breaches where a FC at the request of a player stops a ball that is careering through the green. So this one needs clear guidance that we do not have at the moment.
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Op.

 

I’m sure comment from me is the last thing you want.

 

I know we butt heads and in person I’m sure we may disagree but I bet we’d be less contentious in our discussion.

 

Said that so I could try to say this. Please read this as an honest statement and question. Not as an argument starter.

 

I’m only 4 years into this game and in the last 2 have actively tried to study the rules and decisions of this game. I’m still woefully ignorant of many of the technical ins and outs of decisions that I have gone over. To me this isn’t a game you can learn the rules of in a short time.

 

I admittedly have a bit of a learning block when it comes to language that uses the 100 words when 10 will do . That and just hating to read jargon etc about any subject vs visually watching a task and seeing what’s done and learning it that way is also my block. I just learn so much slower that way.

. Not that I’m saying every rule is that way. But for example the discussion in the other thread about AM status and cash payouts. You have to admit that could be condensed down to something that was easier to understand and abide by and serve the greater purpose with much more efficient effort.

Hopefully that lets you know where I’m coming from and how “ new” I am. I’m not a lifelong player. I find the striking the ball natural and much much easier than learning the rules to completion could ever be.

 

Now. To the original point you asked here. The 2019 changes.

 

To be honest. I don’t feel like I’ve got that far yet. Lol. As in I haven’t looked at the changes save for the flag in putting ordeal. I suppose I should since it’s fast coming. But I’m just that far behind.

 

I can’t be the only one who feels this way. Overwhelmed by it. So I just have no card to play except “ dumb” and ask for an official if I run astray of normal fairway and greens play. You will chuckle at this. But I play a lot with players better than me ( plus handicaps teaching pros etc ) and regularly I’m asked my opinion on drops etc and pretty often I’m correct on the ruling. We almost always refer to google etc to know for sure. But I’ve been correct before hand many times. The reason this is funny to me is that Im obviously not an expert. Yet these other better players either don’t know as much or are afraid of ruling ? So I’m confused as to why every expert here expects players to know more than me , yet I constantly see the opposite in the wild with serious players ? I guess two wrongs don’t make a right will be the answer to that ? And probably correct way to think of it.

 

My question to you as an expert ( never questioned that about you ) ... pretend you’re new and don’t have the knowledge you have. What would you do. ? Would you study 2019 changes now , then backtrack to see what the old rules of each were ? Or ?

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Situation: Player advises wants the flagstick attended and then putts while another player attends. As the ball is in motion and approaching the flagstick fast, the player screams "leave it in, leave it in" and the person attending lets it go and gets out of the way. The ball hits the flagstick. What is the ruling ?

The first point is this would seem to be a deliberate deflect/stop situation, with the attendee being the agent under the authority of the player who putted. So this appears to be R13.2b(2) and the general penalty applies, but to whom? We have no guidance specific to this situation but the only options seem to be the player alone (the player authorised the illegitimate action) or the player and the attendee, unless we get some guidance that a player that breaches 13.2b/11.2 under the authority of another player is absolved of the crime.

 

This particular issue is being discussed elsewhere with no consensus so far.

 

My view is based on R1.3c(1). As the attendee acts at specific instructions by the player, the player is subject to penalty, not the attendee.

I agree that R1.3c(1) provides an authority to penalise the player (if you can't find the authority in R13 and R11) but it does not get the attendee off the hook. That will require an explicit statement from the powers that be. There have been existing rulings that penalise player and fellow competitor currently in the situation of current R1-2 breaches where a FC at the request of a player stops a ball that is careering through the green. So this one needs clear guidance that we do not have at the moment.

Following is the first part of 1.3c (1). IMO the phrase "A penalty also applies when:" suggests that both the player and attendee would be penalized (unless the attendee is the player's caddie). It's the only way I can interpret the word "also" in that sentence.

 

c. Penalties

 

(1) Actions Giving Rise to Penalties. A penalty applies when a breach of a Rule results from a player’s own actions or the actions of his or her caddie (see Rule 10.3c).

 

A penalty also applies when:


  • Another person takes an action that would breach the Rules if taken by the player or caddie and that person does so at the player’s request or while acting with the player’s authority, or

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Op.

 

I'm sure comment from me is the last thing you want.

 

I know we butt heads and in person I'm sure we may disagree but I bet we'd be less contentious in our discussion.

 

Said that so I could try to say this. Please read this as an honest statement and question. Not as an argument starter.

 

I'm only 4 years into this game and in the last 2 have actively tried to study the rules and decisions of this game. I'm still woefully ignorant of many of the technical ins and outs of decisions that I have gone over. To me this isn't a game you can learn the rules of in a short time.

 

I admittedly have a bit of a learning block when it comes to language that uses the 100 words when 10 will do . That and just hating to read jargon etc about any subject vs visually watching a task and seeing what's done and learning it that way is also my block. I just learn so much slower that way.

. Not that I'm saying every rule is that way. But for example the discussion in the other thread about AM status and cash payouts. You have to admit that could be condensed down to something that was easier to understand and abide by and serve the greater purpose with much more efficient effort.

Hopefully that lets you know where I'm coming from and how " new" I am. I'm not a lifelong player. I find the striking the ball natural and much much easier than learning the rules to completion could ever be.

 

Now. To the original point you asked here. The 2019 changes.

 

To be honest. I don't feel like I've got that far yet. Lol. As in I haven't looked at the changes save for the flag in putting ordeal. I suppose I should since it's fast coming. But I'm just that far behind.

 

I can't be the only one who feels this way. Overwhelmed by it. So I just have no card to play except " dumb" and ask for an official if I run astray of normal fairway and greens play. You will chuckle at this. But I play a lot with players better than me ( plus handicaps teaching pros etc ) and regularly I'm asked my opinion on drops etc and pretty often I'm correct on the ruling. We almost always refer to google etc to know for sure. But I've been correct before hand many times. The reason this is funny to me is that Im obviously not an expert. Yet these other better players either don't know as much or are afraid of ruling ? So I'm confused as to why every expert here expects players to know more than me , yet I constantly see the opposite in the wild with serious players ? I guess two wrongs don't make a right will be the answer to that ? And probably correct way to think of it.

 

My question to you as an expert ( never questioned that about you ) ... pretend you're new and don't have the knowledge you have. What would you do. ? Would you study 2019 changes now , then backtrack to see what the old rules of each were ? Or ?

If I may jump in, as to what you should do, I'd strongly recommend attending a PGA/USGA three and a half day rules workshop at a location near you. It's expensive, it's intense, but it's interesting and fulfilling. While this year's workshops do have a bias toward the 2019 changes (as they should) remaining rules are also discussed. And if you do go, I bet you come out with a better appreciation as to why 100 words are sometimes used when 10 might have been used.
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Op.

 

I'm sure comment from me is the last thing you want.

 

I know we butt heads and in person I'm sure we may disagree but I bet we'd be less contentious in our discussion.

 

Said that so I could try to say this. Please read this as an honest statement and question. Not as an argument starter.

 

I'm only 4 years into this game and in the last 2 have actively tried to study the rules and decisions of this game. I'm still woefully ignorant of many of the technical ins and outs of decisions that I have gone over. To me this isn't a game you can learn the rules of in a short time.

 

I admittedly have a bit of a learning block when it comes to language that uses the 100 words when 10 will do . That and just hating to read jargon etc about any subject vs visually watching a task and seeing what's done and learning it that way is also my block. I just learn so much slower that way.

. Not that I'm saying every rule is that way. But for example the discussion in the other thread about AM status and cash payouts. You have to admit that could be condensed down to something that was easier to understand and abide by and serve the greater purpose with much more efficient effort.

Hopefully that lets you know where I'm coming from and how " new" I am. I'm not a lifelong player. I find the striking the ball natural and much much easier than learning the rules to completion could ever be.

 

Now. To the original point you asked here. The 2019 changes.

 

To be honest. I don't feel like I've got that far yet. Lol. As in I haven't looked at the changes save for the flag in putting ordeal. I suppose I should since it's fast coming. But I'm just that far behind.

 

I can't be the only one who feels this way. Overwhelmed by it. So I just have no card to play except " dumb" and ask for an official if I run astray of normal fairway and greens play. You will chuckle at this. But I play a lot with players better than me ( plus handicaps teaching pros etc ) and regularly I'm asked my opinion on drops etc and pretty often I'm correct on the ruling. We almost always refer to google etc to know for sure. But I've been correct before hand many times. The reason this is funny to me is that Im obviously not an expert. Yet these other better players either don't know as much or are afraid of ruling ? So I'm confused as to why every expert here expects players to know more than me , yet I constantly see the opposite in the wild with serious players ? I guess two wrongs don't make a right will be the answer to that ? And probably correct way to think of it.

 

My question to you as an expert ( never questioned that about you ) ... pretend you're new and don't have the knowledge you have. What would you do. ? Would you study 2019 changes now , then backtrack to see what the old rules of each were ? Or ?

If I may jump in, as to what you should do, I'd strongly recommend attending a PGA/USGA three and a half day rules workshop at a location near you. It's expensive, it's intense, but it's interesting and fulfilling. While this year's workshops do have a bias toward the 2019 changes (as they should) remaining rules are also discussed. And if you do go, I bet you come out with a better appreciation as to why 100 words are sometimes used when 10 might have been used.

 

Thanks. I may look into that. I could make it work if it were local enough to me to not have to stay overnight. I’m also mr mom to a 10 year old and a 1 year old Great Pyrenees. Lol. It’s a toss up some days which takes more time from my day.

 

I hope that made sense above. No snark intended. Just honest opinion. It genuinely feels like you need time to take some classes just to understand the rules enough to not be constantly “ ignorant “. Or in the dark.

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I hope that made sense above. No snark intended. Just honest opinion. It genuinely feels like you need time to take some classes just to understand the rules enough to not be constantly " ignorant ". Or in the dark.

 

No snark perceived either. And you do make sense.

 

And yes, if you do want to be "expert" in the rules, a major commitment is required. I don't believe there is any reasonable way to make the rules significantly simpler, so we're stuck with that reality. I actually find their complexity fun, so I'm free of frustration. Maybe just jump to the dark side on that with me!

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I hope that made sense above. No snark intended. Just honest opinion. It genuinely feels like you need time to take some classes just to understand the rules enough to not be constantly " ignorant ". Or in the dark.

 

No snark perceived either. And you do make sense.

 

And yes, if you do want to be "expert" in the rules, a major commitment is required. I don't believe there is any reasonable way to make the rules significantly simpler, so we're stuck with that reality. I actually find their complexity fun, so I'm free of frustration. Maybe just jump to the dark side on that with me!

Be aware of the online R&A Rules Academy - watch this site https://www.randa.org/en/rulesequipment/rules/rulesacademy

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I can't be the only one who feels this way. Overwhelmed by it. So I just have no card to play except " dumb" and ask for an official if I run astray of normal fairway and greens play. You will chuckle at this. But I play a lot with players better than me ( plus handicaps teaching pros etc ) and regularly I'm asked my opinion on drops etc and pretty often I'm correct on the ruling. We almost always refer to google etc to know for sure. But I've been correct before hand many times. The reason this is funny to me is that Im obviously not an expert. Yet these other better players either don't know as much or are afraid of ruling ? So I'm confused as to why every expert here expects players to know more than me , yet I constantly see the opposite in the wild with serious players ? I guess two wrongs don't make a right will be the answer to that ? And probably correct way to think of it.

 

My question to you as an expert ( never questioned that about you ) ... pretend you're new and don't have the knowledge you have. What would you do. ? Would you study 2019 changes now , then backtrack to see what the old rules of each were ? Or ?

A couple of responses. In my experience, most players, even really good ones, have learned most of what they know about the rules from other players, and they accept what they've been told as being correct. But those "other players" learned the same way, so the knowledge becomes a little like the first line in the "Telephone game", it gets altered slightly with each retelling until its completely incorrect. Very few people actually go to the real rules to double-check what they've been told. I've been at this game for close to 50 years, but really only started doing my own reading of the rule book maybe 10 years ago. I know I have a lot left to learn, but I've become familiar enough with the rules themselves to be able to find most answers on my own.

I'd suggest that for now, you should be focusing on the 2019 rules, as pretty much all of us should. I'll offer this website:

https://rulesgeeks.com/

where they are discussing one of the new and improved rules each day for the month of December. Each day's discussion so far has only taken 5 minutes or so to read, and they talk about both the 2019 rule, and how it departs from the previous version. Some of the regulars here may prefer to avoid it, one of the contributors owns a competing golf website, but to me its a nice simple starter for the 2019 rules.

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I can't be the only one who feels this way. Overwhelmed by it. So I just have no card to play except " dumb" and ask for an official if I run astray of normal fairway and greens play. You will chuckle at this. But I play a lot with players better than me ( plus handicaps teaching pros etc ) and regularly I'm asked my opinion on drops etc and pretty often I'm correct on the ruling. We almost always refer to google etc to know for sure. But I've been correct before hand many times. The reason this is funny to me is that Im obviously not an expert. Yet these other better players either don't know as much or are afraid of ruling ? So I'm confused as to why every expert here expects players to know more than me , yet I constantly see the opposite in the wild with serious players ? I guess two wrongs don't make a right will be the answer to that ? And probably correct way to think of it.

 

My question to you as an expert ( never questioned that about you ) ... pretend you're new and don't have the knowledge you have. What would you do. ? Would you study 2019 changes now , then backtrack to see what the old rules of each were ? Or ?

A couple of responses. In my experience, most players, even really good ones, have learned most of what they know about the rules from other players, and they accept what they've been told as being correct. But those "other players" learned the same way, so the knowledge becomes a little like the first line in the "Telephone game", it gets altered slightly with each retelling until its completely incorrect. Very few people actually go to the real rules to double-check what they've been told. I've been at this game for close to 50 years, but really only started doing my own reading of the rule book maybe 10 years ago. I know I have a lot left to learn, but I've become familiar enough with the rules themselves to be able to find most answers on my own.

I'd suggest that for now, you should be focusing on the 2019 rules, as pretty much all of us should. I'll offer this website:

https://rulesgeeks.com/

where they are discussing one of the new and improved rules each day for the month of December. Each day's discussion so far has only taken 5 minutes or so to read, and they talk about both the 2019 rule, and how it departs from the previous version. Some of the regulars here may prefer to avoid it, one of the contributors owns a competing golf website, but to me its a nice simple starter for the 2019 rules.

 

Thanks Dave.

 

I’ll check that site out.

 

 

And to your telephone game reference. I agree. That’s how most are. And that’s kind of what I was saying. They either don’t know or aren’t sure. And what little I’m retaining has proven to be more correct than not from either here or my own reading. So I’m appearing to know what I’m talking about on the course , sometimes. lol. But when it comes to any complex deals discussed here it becomes that walk down a blind hallway again.

 

I don’t have the answer. But the rules sure are a game unto theme selves. I could play this game at a scratch or better level for the rest of my life and honestly never feel like I needed to know most of it. But it does bug me that there are things about the game I love that I have no clue about. Maybe it’s not as much as I fear ? Not know yet. But you mentioning 10 years of study doesn’t shock me. What I guess I think of that is , how reasonable is it to take 15-20 years to know the rules of a game you’ve already played 50? I don’t know. I see some Beauty in that too. But a lot more questions than satisfactions.

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

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Op.

 

I'm sure comment from me is the last thing you want.

 

I know we butt heads and in person I'm sure we may disagree but I bet we'd be less contentious in our discussion.

 

Said that so I could try to say this. Please read this as an honest statement and question. Not as an argument starter.

 

I'm only 4 years into this game and in the last 2 have actively tried to study the rules and decisions of this game. I'm still woefully ignorant of many of the technical ins and outs of decisions that I have gone over. To me this isn't a game you can learn the rules of in a short time.

 

I admittedly have a bit of a learning block when it comes to language that uses the 100 words when 10 will do . That and just hating to read jargon etc about any subject vs visually watching a task and seeing what's done and learning it that way is also my block. I just learn so much slower that way.

. Not that I'm saying every rule is that way. But for example the discussion in the other thread about AM status and cash payouts. You have to admit that could be condensed down to something that was easier to understand and abide by and serve the greater purpose with much more efficient effort.

Hopefully that lets you know where I'm coming from and how " new" I am. I'm not a lifelong player. I find the striking the ball natural and much much easier than learning the rules to completion could ever be.

 

Now. To the original point you asked here. The 2019 changes.

 

To be honest. I don't feel like I've got that far yet. Lol. As in I haven't looked at the changes save for the flag in putting ordeal. I suppose I should since it's fast coming. But I'm just that far behind.

 

I can't be the only one who feels this way. Overwhelmed by it. So I just have no card to play except " dumb" and ask for an official if I run astray of normal fairway and greens play. You will chuckle at this. But I play a lot with players better than me ( plus handicaps teaching pros etc ) and regularly I'm asked my opinion on drops etc and pretty often I'm correct on the ruling. We almost always refer to google etc to know for sure. But I've been correct before hand many times. The reason this is funny to me is that Im obviously not an expert. Yet these other better players either don't know as much or are afraid of ruling ? So I'm confused as to why every expert here expects players to know more than me , yet I constantly see the opposite in the wild with serious players ? I guess two wrongs don't make a right will be the answer to that ? And probably correct way to think of it.

 

My question to you as an expert ( never questioned that about you ) ... pretend you're new and don't have the knowledge you have. What would you do. ? Would you study 2019 changes now , then backtrack to see what the old rules of each were ? Or ?

If I may jump in, as to what you should do, I'd strongly recommend attending a PGA/USGA three and a half day rules workshop at a location near you. It's expensive, it's intense, but it's interesting and fulfilling. While this year's workshops do have a bias toward the 2019 changes (as they should) remaining rules are also discussed. And if you do go, I bet you come out with a better appreciation as to why 100 words are sometimes used when 10 might have been used.

 

Thanks. I may look into that. I could make it work if it were local enough to me to not have to stay overnight. I'm also mr mom to a 10 year old and a 1 year old Great Pyrenees. Lol. It's a toss up some days which takes more time from my day.

 

I hope that made sense above. No snark intended. Just honest opinion. It genuinely feels like you need time to take some classes just to understand the rules enough to not be constantly " ignorant ". Or in the dark.

 

They're never close to our neck of the woods, but here's their schedule:

 

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/rules-workshops/2019%20(Winter%202019)%20Workshop%20Schedule%20(rev%2011-14).pdf

 

I usually go to Pinehurst or Atlanta.

 

An easy evening from the CGA might work for you, look here:

 

https://cga.golfgenius.com/pages/1772549

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

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I hope that made sense above. No snark intended. Just honest opinion. It genuinely feels like you need time to take some classes just to understand the rules enough to not be constantly " ignorant ". Or in the dark.

 

No snark perceived either. And you do make sense.

 

And yes, if you do want to be "expert" in the rules, a major commitment is required. I don't believe there is any reasonable way to make the rules significantly simpler, so we're stuck with that reality. I actually find their complexity fun, so I'm free of frustration. Maybe just jump to the dark side on that with me!

 

I don’t know if I have any desire to be an “ expert “ or a know it all as I can be with other things. Lol. But I does bug me that I’ve played basketball , ran track and cross country and could at the time nearly recite the rules at large , and I don’t know that I could live long enough to remember all of these.

 

Maybe that’s just a unreachable goal to not need the rule book except on rare occasion of crazy happenings. If that’s true. Then I can probably google with the best of them and just find the answer. Seems like there could be a middle ground and not take up half your life ?

 

I usually just ask someone here because I trust the answer or at least trust the debate that finds the answer.

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Thanks Sui ^.

 

About to head out for a dang dentist Appt. but I’ll read those when I get back in.

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Pretty sure this has been touched on before, but I can't seem to locate it...

 

Our club has a good amount of native area that borders the course. Most of it is a 10-30 yard wide "buffer" zone between primary rough and OOB (back yards). Is there guidance as to whether these should be marked as penalty areas, or left as unmarked native area?

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I hope that made sense above. No snark intended. Just honest opinion. It genuinely feels like you need time to take some classes just to understand the rules enough to not be constantly " ignorant ". Or in the dark.

 

No snark perceived either. And you do make sense.

 

And yes, if you do want to be "expert" in the rules, a major commitment is required. I don't believe there is any reasonable way to make the rules significantly simpler, so we're stuck with that reality. I actually find their complexity fun, so I'm free of frustration. Maybe just jump to the dark side on that with me!

 

I don't know if I have any desire to be an " expert " or a know it all as I can be with other things. Lol. But I does bug me that I've played basketball , ran track and cross country and could at the time nearly recite the rules at large , and I don't know that I could live long enough to remember all of these.

 

Maybe that's just a unreachable goal to not need the rule book except on rare occasion of crazy happenings. If that's true. Then I can probably google with the best of them and just find the answer. Seems like there could be a middle ground and not take up half your life ?

 

I usually just ask someone here because I trust the answer or at least trust the debate that finds the answer.

 

I wouldn't trust Google to provide the correct answers, particularly after January 1, 2019. Google only directs you to multiple choices to find an answer, and many of those choices will provide an incorrect answer (remember one issue with computers - "garbage in does not create gospel out"). You're better off getting the Rules app for your phone and/or obtaining a copy of the "Players Edition" of the 2019 Rules.

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Pretty sure this has been touched on before, but I can't seem to locate it...

 

Our club has a good amount of native area that borders the course. Most of it is a 10-30 yard wide "buffer" zone between primary rough and OOB (back yards). Is there guidance as to whether these should be marked as penalty areas, or left as unmarked native area?

The R&A/USGA say this:

It has been recognized that requiring areas to contain water seems to be a somewhat arbitrary reason for permitting such relief options.  For reasons such as safety and pace of play, many Committees have sought to expand the use of lateral water hazards by marking areas that do not contain water and by marking water hazards as red where that is not specifically contemplated by the Rules.

 

The broader use of “penalty areas” would allow Committees to respond to the wide range of settings in which golf is played by giving relief from areas that present similar obstacles to existing water hazards such as difficulties with finding and playing a ball and similar practical needs about pace of play. For example, an area of tall grass in which a lost ball is likely can be marked as a penalty area in 2019 and beyond, leading to more options for continuing play besides stroke-and-distance.

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Pretty sure this has been touched on before, but I can't seem to locate it...

 

Our club has a good amount of native area that borders the course. Most of it is a 10-30 yard wide "buffer" zone between primary rough and OOB (back yards). Is there guidance as to whether these should be marked as penalty areas, or left as unmarked native area?

 

Maybe this'll give a good idea of what to consider when making such decisions, the consequences, like not being able to take a drop for an unplayable lie in a penalty area, should be considered very carefully.

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/section-2#2c_1

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