Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in

RMGC_NVRMGC_NV Members Posts: 307 ✭✭
There's a clip on GC where Chamblee says he did "the research" and concluded that every player should leave the flagstick in. Naturally there is no mention or explanation as to what research he is actually referring to. Anyone know?
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Comments

  • PulledabillPulledabill Members Posts: 334 ✭✭
    I find it funny that he is such a slow player but is opting to leave the stick in.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    I've written extensively on the subject. Not sure what pace of play has to do with it.



    One of the concerns was playing partners may be inconvenienced but Dustin Johnson said there was no issue.

    “It was definitely weird, well not weird, but different looking watching somewhat putt with the flag in but it actually worked out where it wasn’t a big deal today,” Johnson said.

    “It didn’t really slow us down or anything. There were a couple of times where if we were close and the flag was out I would just putt it because I knew he would put in back in.”

    https://www.pgatour.com/news/2019/01/03/bryson-dechambeau-flag-in-putting-sentry-tournament-of-champions-rules-of-golf-new-2019.html



    But from a physics standpoint, he's most likely referring to Dave Pelz's research. I add my own conclusions from an articulate post from another golf forum:



    Pelz Research:



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1709628-putting-with-flag-in-merged/page__st__90#entry18220936



    My conclusions:



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1709628-putting-with-flag-in-merged/page__st__90#entry18222946



    Poster identified six areas of potential benefit for putting with the stick in. The first three have justification rooted in physics. Personally, I believe #1 is most important, followed closely by #3. I am not a physicist, but know enough about each topic to expound a little bit if you'd like.

    https://thesandtrap....e-flagstick-in/
    • The flagstick slows the ball by a greater factor than it decreases the time the ball spends suspended over the hole.
    • Unless you have exceptional distance control, effective capture speed can remain about the same.
    • Hitting the ball more firmly allows for a larger margin of error. It also reduces the tendency of a slow-moving putt to "wobble" or be moved off-line due to imperfections.
    • Players, particularly poorer putters, leave a lot of putts from 6' to 15' short. This change would let them be more aggressive.
    • The situations where the flagstick should be removed (it leans too much, it's moving around a lot in the wind) almost never occur.
    • The flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim.
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  • GMRGMR Members Posts: 1,053 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 11:03am #4
    The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 11:08am #5
    GMR wrote:


    The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.




    Interesting point.



    So you're really willing to play worse to avoid a perceived annoyance? Dang, dude.



    The default for a pin is in... I'd say those who want it out are being annoying image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />
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  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,442 ✭✭
    Here I thought it was all about the coefficient of restitution of the flagstick.
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  • GMRGMR Members Posts: 1,053 ✭✭
    rawdog wrote:

    GMR wrote:


    The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.




    Interesting point.



    So you're really willing to play worse to avoid a perceived annoyance? Dang, dude.



    The default for a pin is in... I'd say those who want it out are being annoying image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />


    I also play better when I go through a 45-60 second pre-shot routine and putt better when I walk around every putt to take it in from all angles. Needless to say, unless it's a competitive round with something material on the line, I'm not doing those either or else I'm not going to get invited out to play very often. I agree with you that the default for a pin should be in, but something tells me others are unlikely to see it that way (I haven't yet played in 2019 so not yet sure). But just like I'm easy going with respect to what tees we play off, I'm planning to be easy going with respect to the pin being in/out make it as quick and easy for everyone involved.



    That said, I hope everyone wants to leave it in image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • HoosierMizunoHoosierMizuno Members Posts: 3,380 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 11:29am #8
    chamblee specifically referenced pelz's research....



    i can't see how having the flagstick in would actually help in regards to the ball hitting the flagstick on anything other than lag putts hit way too hard or fast downhill putts hit too hard. its hard to think there would be a single putt inside 15' on tour that is holed this year that would've not gone in if the pin were removed.



    chamblee can talk all he wants about how the players not leaving the pin in are at a disadvantage, but i'd love for him to have pointed to a single putt that would not have been holed that day by bryson if the pin were removed.
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  • CwebbCwebb Members Posts: 5,938 ✭✭
    It will be interesting to see what Brooke Henderson on the LPGA tour does this season. She's had her caddy tend the flag from distances and situations that I'd never seen anyone else choose to.



    I think they mentioned something about a depth perception advantage
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 4, 2019 7:01pm #10
    I have only one comment on the flag in thing:



    I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.



    I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me to the contrary, and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL



    As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.



    The pin thing is like that.



    Science. LOL
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  • jll62jll62 ClubWRX Posts: 2,042 ClubWRX
    I'm looking forward to doing some of my own testing on this with my Perfect Putter, but I am firmly in the camp of leaving the flagstick in as the default state based on all of the evidence we have to date. The key will be knowing when it's advantageous to take it out, but I think those situations will be rare.
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  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    I have only one comment on the flag in thing:



    I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.



    I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL



    As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.



    The pin thing is like that.



    Science. LOL




    I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.
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  • sdandreasdandrea Steve Members Posts: 2,383 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 12:04pm #13
    Played 18 holes this morning with SWMBO. We both left the flag in. It definitely speeds play up when all the players in a group are leaving it in, especially if your group plays ready golf on the greens as we did this morning. I putted a few times while she was still getting to her ball or raking a bunker. Granted, this is very casual play, but I could see it speeding things up in recreational golf.

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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX
    rawdog wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I have only one comment on the flag in thing:



    I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.



    I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL



    As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.



    The pin thing is like that.



    Science. LOL




    I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.




    Somebody told me he did his tests with both types of flags? Or did subsequent tests with them? If he did, and came to the conclusion that you should still leave the flag in with the heavy flags, then he's wrong. LOL ;-)
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  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I have only one comment on the flag in thing:



    I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.



    I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL



    As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.



    The pin thing is like that.



    Science. LOL




    I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.




    Somebody told me he did his tests with both types of flags? Or did subsequent tests with them? If he did, and came to the conclusion that you should still leave the flag in with the heavy flags, then he's wrong. LOL ;-)




    I can't confirm the flagsticks he used, but I would be highly doubtful he came to his conclusions using the wide metal ones. Anyone have him on speed dial?
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  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    The benefit of the flag in is hard to see with the naked eye.



    Of course you aren't going to see it on every putt made with the stick in.



    Where it will have aided is if it deadened a putt that would've lipped out (ie, was traveling too fast to be captured into the hole by gravity).



    Here is an image I created for the other thread that shows how the stick adds effective capture width to the hole as the speed of the putt (when it reaches the hole) increases.



    So yeah, duh, if you die the ball in the hole every time, you won't see a difference. But players don't do that every time. And, additionally, being able to hit the ball firmer at a now wider target should result in fewer putts missed short as players adjust. Win-win for flagstick in.
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  • JarlaxleJarlaxle Atlanta, GAMembers Posts: 474 ✭✭
    I like to sneak out by myself late in the day and play fast... you better believe I'm leaving the flag in image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
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  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 3,881 ✭✭
    Hope it keeps guys from dropping (as opposed to laying down) the flagstick on the green, too. image/golfer.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':golfer:' />
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  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers Posts: 2,413 ✭✭
    I might be wrong but at the moment I can't even imagine a time where many PGA Tour players will hole out with the flag in. I guess if someone starts winning doing it then they will follow suit.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,238 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    I have only one comment on the flag in thing:



    I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.



    I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL






    What I find most interesting about this post is that you prefer to use YOUR anecdotal evidence ("that ball would easily have gone in") as opposed to data by someone who actually observed thousands of tests. I'd agree that different flagsticks will produce different results. But my opinion, based on physics alone, is that a heavier flagstick will have slightly less of an advantage as compared to the lighter sticks, but will still improve results over having the flagstick removed. But both of our opinions should be open to revision, I hear that two or three more new studies will be released in the new future, including fresh work by Pelz.
  • rangersgoalierangersgoalie Members Posts: 1,804 ✭✭
    What’s the rule on putting your own flagstick in the hole



    Some of the little ones on putting greens work great at absorbing the ball



    Could you imagine a player carrying his own little flagstick and putting it in tomputt hahaa
  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members Posts: 1,408 ✭✭
    I've seen these flagsticks that are thin at the bottom (first 8 - 12 inches) and generally thick with some wood outer layer or similar. So use these and start gluing them into the cup so the flag cannot be removed...that will speed up play!
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,238 ✭✭


    What’s the rule on putting your own flagstick in the hole



    Some of the little ones on putting greens work great at absorbing the ball



    Could you imagine a player carrying his own little flagstick and putting it in tomputt hahaa

    CasualLie wrote:


    I've seen these flagsticks that are thin at the bottom (first 8 - 12 inches) and generally thick with some wood outer layer or similar. So use these and start gluing them into the cup so the flag cannot be removed...that will speed up play!


    For better or for worse, the flagstick is defined in the Equipment Rules, Part 8-1, as a "movable pole" (so it can't be glued in) "provided by the Committee" (so you can't bring your own).
  • Dr. BlockDr. Block Members Posts: 610 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 1:43pm #24
    If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the hole should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the **** thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.
  • sdandreasdandrea Steve Members Posts: 2,383 ✭✭
    Dr. Block wrote:


    If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the cup should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the **** thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.




    The only thing I'm going to miss is the anger release of jamming the pin back into the cup after I dead pull a 2 footer.....

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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    sdandrea wrote:

    Dr. Block wrote:


    If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the cup should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the **** thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.




    The only thing I'm going to miss is the anger release of jamming the pin back into the cup after I dead pull a 2 footer.....




    same lololol
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX
    davep043 wrote:

    Obee wrote:


    I have only one comment on the flag in thing:



    I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.



    I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL






    What I find most interesting about this post is that you prefer to use YOUR anecdotal evidence ("that ball would easily have gone in") as opposed to data by someone who actually observed thousands of tests. I'd agree that different flagsticks will produce different results. But my opinion, based on physics alone, is that a heavier flagstick will have slightly less of an advantage as compared to the lighter sticks, but will still improve results over having the flagstick removed. But both of our opinions should be open to revision, I hear that two or three more new studies will be released in the new future, including fresh work by Pelz.




    Yes, I'm hoping to see fresh work by someone on this.



    My anecdotal evidence is so one-sidedly biased toward taking the heavy sticks OUT that it would take a very, very good study for me to believe otherwise. Certainly open to changing my mind though.
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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,416 ✭✭
    **** is releasing their own study soon. Hopefully it's actually scientific and somewhat controlled. Most of their "best of X year" and "most wanted" tests are somewhat unreliable due to all the variables they still leave in testing.
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    P770 5-PW Modus 120X
    Glide Stealth 2.0 50/10SS AMT Wedge
    Glide Stealth 2.0 54/12SS AMT Wedge
    Glide Stealth 2.0 58/10SS Modus 125 Wedge
    TP Ardmore 2 Red-White
    ProV1x
    Sun Mountain 4.5 Bag

  • GLF4EVRGLF4EVR Members Posts: 796 ✭✭
    All I can say is there is 1 hole at my home course that this rule can help. Last 70 yards is all uphill to a two-tiered green. At times during the summer if the hole is on the lower tier & you are on the upper tier.......you might be looking at a 70 yard second putt image/russian_roulette.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':russian_roulette:' />
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,238 ✭✭
    GLF4EVR wrote:


    All I can say is there is 1 hole at my home course that this rule can help. Last 70 yards is all uphill to a two-tiered green. At times during the summer if the hole is on the lower tier & you are on the upper tier.......you might be looking at a 70 yard second putt image/russian_roulette.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':russian_roulette:' />


    I'm waiting for the rule change that allows you to lay the flagstick flat on the ground behind the hole, that's what will REALLY help those putts.
  • I deeply believe it would be best if half of the players in a group insist on leaving the flag in, the others should take it out. That would really make me look forward to playing a quick fourball next year.



    Seriously though, you definitely gain an advantage on some putts. How many putts do you hit that go straight over the hole and don't go in because they had too much pace. Or those really firm lip-outs. 5 a year maybe? On 1000 holes or so? Well, that's .005 strokes gained on every hole or .09 strokes per round using simple mathematics. Looking at what people do when buying any product to save the tiniest bit of money I'm surprised why not everyone starts saving putts now...



    Start saving your putts today and you'll get a 0.1 off your handicap. For FREE!



    :-)
    I could buy new / different clubs every day... couldn't you?
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