Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in

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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    BIG STU wrote:
    Dr. Block wrote:



    Dr. Block wrote:


    If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the hole should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the **** thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.


    That could be true Doc, the other reason for the gashes I think is those who have to use their putter to retrieve their ball from back out of the hole, and don't do it cleanly. With some guys it just looks like they're cutting into an apple pie with a big dremel tool or something...




    Personally thought the opposite. More hands squeezing by the pin to get a ball out has to damage the lip more. Or maybe just a wash. But certainly isn't going to keep it cleaner. Hand in is guaranteed contact with lip. Pin out can be done with no contact although I'll admit a lot are careless.




    It's been my experience that people don't pay attention to what they are doing and hit the side of the cup with the flagstick when putting it in. That's what causes the damage up here. Maybe it's different down your way on Bermuda.



    Never really thought about all the sausage link digit folks having to widdle their ball up past the flagstick now. That will definitely be an issue. I never remove the flag when I play alone, and I often have a **** of a time getting my ball out of the hole (especially on windy days), and I have skinny fingers.



    Don't even want to think about people using their putters to get the ball out. That's almost as bad as climbing in and out of bunkers on the steep front face.



    My guess is a lot of people will try to launch their ball out of the hole by jerking the flag stick out at warp speed. That will surely cause all sorts of damage to the edge of the hole. People just don't have any respect for the courses they play anymore. Not sure if they don't know any better, or if they do and they just don't care.
    Block---- The last sentence sums it all up-- No one cares especially down here in this touron area




    Well, the good news is that you can now repair the hole under some circumstances, right?
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  • Maton12Maton12 SydneyMembers Posts: 33 ✭✭
    Nobody ever admits to slow play, but too often the foursome in front play pass the parcel with the flag, not knowing who's next to putt or who's allowed to hold the flag - cause it supposedly can't touch the green!



    To those who support the flag out, do you putt off the green and chip with the flag out seeing as the flag in is such a disadvantage to holing putts?
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,793 ✭✭
    Obee.



    What happens when you’re playing with someone who’s known to bend the rules ? He’s on every green first to putt and mark before you get up ?

    For what it’s worth. I don’t disagree with you. IF everyone wants it in it should be slightly faster. But if it’s split. No way it does.



    I just can’t get used to the modified target. And as spooky as I am with a putter. This is just another level of anxiety i don’t need. The “ are we going to have a argument over the pin today “ anxiety I mean.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,793 ✭✭
    Maton12 wrote:


    Nobody ever admits to slow play, but too often the foursome in front play pass the parcel with the flag, not knowing who's next to putt or who's allowed to hold the flag - cause it supposedly can't touch the green!



    To those who support the flag out, do you putt off the green and chip with the flag out seeing as the flag in is such a disadvantage to holing putts?




    Never seen s group hold the flag. It’s always laid down somewhere. And yes. If I’m aiming to make a chip the pin is out.



    Watch Phil. Possibly the biggest Pelz disciple on earth. He pulls it for almost everything. Why doesn’t he believe the supposed science from the guy he follows for anything else ?
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,604 ✭✭
    aliikane wrote:


    To me, it depends a lot on how the flag is leaning because they never sit perfectly plumb.



    I think on downhill putts, the flag should be used and not be used for uphill putts. My reasoning. Generally if the hole is on a slope, the flag will be leaning towards the uphill putts making the hole smaller. Whereas the flag will be leaning away from downhill putts making the hole bigger and aiding in stopping the ball.



    Also when there is a stiff wind blowing, the flag will lean. So putting into the wind the flag will be making the hole smaller. Whereas on downwind putts, the flag will be leaning away from the player will make the hole bigger, and also can aid in helping stop the ball. I was surprised to see Chambeau using the flag when the wind was blowing hard and clearing leaning the flag towards him when putting at the Sentry. To me, it clearly looked like the flag made the hole smaller.



    If the putt is downhill into the wind or uphill downwind, it will depend on how severe the slope and how it will be leaning.
    Don't you have your slope/flag lean backwards? The flagstick should always be vertical. So if you're putting downhill the stick is leaning a bit towards the front of the cup. And vice versa. The cup is not cut to the slope, it is straight to the sky.
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    edited Jan 6, 2019 10:27am #97
    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • AugustokAugustok Members Posts: 77 ✭✭
    augustgolf wrote:


    I haven't seen wooden flagsticks anywhere ever




    It’s rare but I’ve seen them. Also rakes with wooden handled. Usually places where the flags are embroidered and one doesn’t put shoes on in the parking lot.
  • halliedoghalliedog Members Posts: 2,384 ✭✭
    I tried it yesterday. At first I was the only one who wanted it, so if I was first to putt we would just leave it in, I would hit my putt and hopefully either make it or lag to spot that it was an easy tap in, which I'd just go ahead and do (after asking the opposing team if they "needed to see that"), then put it back in for anyone else who wanted/needed it.



    If I wasn't the first to putt, I would usually read my putt while others were putting, pick up flagstick when it was nearing my turn to go, then put it back in (or have my partner do it depending on how far from the hole I was), and follow scenario from before.



    The only times it was "wierd" was the few times if I was not first to putt and the pin had been pulled, then I had to put the pin in, and if I didn't hit a good lag putt and my opponents determined that they did "need to see that", so I then needed to mark my ball, pull the pin for them, and then replace it for my second putt. I will say that it had me going ahead and "finishing" any 3-4 footers so that seemed to speed things up a little without having to mark and then replace. I also had more confidence on these short ones, feeling I could go ahead and bang them in with a little more speed and not concerned with break so much.



    By the back nine 2 of the others in our group had started coming around to leaving it in for longer putts, although one of them still wanted it pulled for shorter putts. My guess is they figured their chances of hitting it or the hole from longer distance was remote anyway so no big deal, but on shorter ones they expected to make they couldn't get used to the visual. I'm totally leaving it in from now on, as I suspect more will start doing once the "newness" wears off and they start getting used to doing it.
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  • Dr. BlockDr. Block Members Posts: 610 ✭✭
    Obee,



    I always wondered about repairing the hole and if it was against the rules. I’ve been doing it for longer then I can remember, although only after holing out while lifting my ball from the cup. I’ll even use my pitch tool to try and fix the severe gashes.



    Stu,



    You must have the patience of a true southern gentleman to put up with the clown college of tourist golfers you encounter down there. I’ve cooled over the years and learned it’s wiser to mind ones business a little better, but I used to have no issue confronting anyone I saw disrespecting the course. It still boils my blood when I see it though. Especially carts parked near the greens. I watched someone drive their cart between the bunker and the edge of the green to get to the next tee last season. The tires on one side of the cart left a track between the fringe and green surface (it was damp). I about s*** myself. And this was at a private club!
  • imakaveliimakaveli Moli Moli Moli Moli Tommy Tommy Tommy Tommy... Members Posts: 12,713 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    imakaveli wrote:
    This rule is confusing, time wasting and awkward.




    Awkward (because it's new) CHECK



    Confusing? Not to me. Why is it confusing to you?



    Time wasting? Definitely not at all in my group's first run through. Saved us time, in fact.




    Awkward because, look at them.

    Confusing because it creates confusion.

    Time wasting: I want it out, then back in, then out again.

    If you know how to behave on course you don't need this rule.

    (all this imho)
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 6, 2019 12:46pm #102
    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.
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  • imakaveliimakaveli Moli Moli Moli Moli Tommy Tommy Tommy Tommy... Members Posts: 12,713 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    Exactly, the agreement between players will make this work, but this will work only in friendly games, not in tournaments, hence the mess...
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,604 ✭✭
    imakaveli wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    Exactly, the agreement between players will make this work, but this will work only in friendly games, not in tournaments, hence the mess...
    Why would it not help in tournaments? I expected to have the flag out most of the time but after a few rounds experimenting with the flag in I am expecting to leave it in more often. And seeing the same thoughts from playing partners.
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    If you're just playing rapid fire golf and finishing out holes before others in the group even reach the green and playing out of turn all day like this then yes.



    But for groups who play the more traditional way, it shouldn't make a difference.
  • AugustokAugustok Members Posts: 77 ✭✭
    imakaveli wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    Exactly, the agreement between players will make this work, but this will work only in friendly games, not in tournaments, hence the mess...




    In my experience tournaments always take forever, maybe not for you scratch golfers or maybe more so for you scratch golfers, so leave it in or take it out I’ll still be standing around watching people line up all around the hole etc, etc.
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,604 ✭✭

    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    If you're just playing rapid fire golf and finishing out holes before others in the group even reach the green and playing out of turn all day like this then yes.



    But for groups who play the more traditional way, it shouldn't make a difference.
    Yes, ready golf is faster than always trying to figure who is away.
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    imakaveli wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    Exactly, the agreement between players will make this work, but this will work only in friendly games, not in tournaments, hence the mess...
    Why would it not help in tournaments? I expected to have the flag out most of the time but after a few rounds experimenting with the flag in I am expecting to leave it in more often. And seeing the same thoughts from playing partners.




    Because typically in tournaments you aren't just playing rapid fire golf like this.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    Shilgy wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    If you're just playing rapid fire golf and finishing out holes before others in the group even reach the green and playing out of turn all day like this then yes.



    But for groups who play the more traditional way, it shouldn't make a difference.
    Yes, ready golf is faster than always trying to figure who is away.




    And for the most part, golf should always be played this way.



    They even tell us to play this way in serious regional competitions.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    Shilgy wrote:

    imakaveli wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    Exactly, the agreement between players will make this work, but this will work only in friendly games, not in tournaments, hence the mess...
    Why would it not help in tournaments? I expected to have the flag out most of the time but after a few rounds experimenting with the flag in I am expecting to leave it in more often. And seeing the same thoughts from playing partners.




    Because typically in tournaments you aren't just playing rapid fire golf like this.




    You are making this an either/or situation. It is not. It will absolutely help in tournament golf also if you have a player(s) like myself in the group.



    I am a tournament player. I have no problem putting with the flagstick in while my playing partners are walking up to the hole if I happen to reach the hole before them. I am absolutely certain I am not alone in this as a tournament player and that there will be other tournament players who will do this.



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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:


    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    If you're just playing rapid fire golf and finishing out holes before others in the group even reach the green and playing out of turn all day like this then yes.



    But for groups who play the more traditional way, it shouldn't make a difference.
    Yes, ready golf is faster than always trying to figure who is away.




    Ready golf to me is always being ready to play when it's your turn. It means always paying attention to where the other balls are so you always know who is next to play and knowing when you should be getting a flag, reading a putt, moving a cart, etc.



    Rapid fire golf is when everyone just plays at will and you might have multiple people chipping at the same time with balls nearly crashing into each other on the green. Or someone will finish out a hole quickly and then go sit in their cart while the others finish. A lot of etiquette goes out the window with rapid fire golf.



    In the end, if everyone in the group is okay playing like this then it ultimately doesn't matter to me or to anyone else. It's their group and if it moves them along and they are okay playing this way then great.



    Personally I'm not a big fan of it. I like to play at a good tempo but I like to do so while playing the more customary way. Both can be achieved if everyone in the group shares the same level of awareness and everyone understands how to keep the flow going.

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,604 ✭✭
    edited Jan 6, 2019 2:06pm #112

    Shilgy wrote:

    imakaveli wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.



    I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.



    Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.



    So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.




    Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?



    We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.



    Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.



    Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times — just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.



    Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.



    A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.



    And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.



    The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.



    Easy. Fast. Efficient.



    We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.



    Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.




    Exactly, the agreement between players will make this work, but this will work only in friendly games, not in tournaments, hence the mess...
    Why would it not help in tournaments? I expected to have the flag out most of the time but after a few rounds experimenting with the flag in I am expecting to leave it in more often. And seeing the same thoughts from playing partners.




    Because typically in tournaments you aren't just playing rapid fire golf like this.
    Except he really wasn't playing rapid fire. Just figuring out ahead of time if everyone was cool with having it out from 20+ feet.

    Slow play is often the result of the "is it your turn? My turn? Whose turn?" crowd. Because when they finally figure out whose turn it is only then does a player start his routine... Or even worse many players only then start even calculating how far out they are. Ready golf is just being ready to play. And if you're ready and the guy five yards behind you is not go ahead and play. Or if you reach the green first and don't mind the pin in then putt if no one's ball is in the way. I'm as traditional as it comes but if it's not match play just play ready golf.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    WITB
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  • ode1ode1 Members Posts: 2,857 ✭✭

    Maton12 wrote:


    Nobody ever admits to slow play, but too often the foursome in front play pass the parcel with the flag, not knowing who's next to putt or who's allowed to hold the flag - cause it supposedly can't touch the green!



    To those who support the flag out, do you putt off the green and chip with the flag out seeing as the flag in is such a disadvantage to holing putts?




    Never seen s group hold the flag. It’s always laid down somewhere. And yes. If I’m aiming to make a chip the pin is out.



    Watch Phil. Possibly the biggest Pelz disciple on earth. He pulls it for almost everything. Why doesn’t he believe the supposed science from the guy he follows for anything else ?




    Tradition that's why. That's what has been taught and passed on.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Shilgy --



    You're absolutely correct in that the "whose turn is it" game is a big reason for slow play. But again, this just goes back to the whole awareness thing I keep bringing up. In a group with good awareness, there might be a couple times per round where you have a brief "me or you" exchange because you both have similar length putts. But most of the time, it's obvious who is away. I think the "whose turn is it" game gets played a lot because a lot of people don't do a good job of paying attention to the other balls in the group and don't know where everyone's mark is so they are always having to ask if it's their turn or not.



    You could also make the case that when playing "fire when ready" golf that there are some situations where two people almost pull the trigger but then they both back off because they noticed the other person was about to hit. The whole "oh sorry, go ahead." "No you go ahead" game.



    I think we're actually in agreement really. There is a happy medium between ready golf and rapid fire golf. If you're a rider and I'm a walker, absolutely fire when ready. Or if I blade a chip across the green and I'm still away, don't wait for me to walk all the way across the green. Just go ahead and go while I make the walk of shame.



    But again, doing that requires the awareness to do so. And I think the main reason that groups are slow on the greens is not because of a flagstick. It's because they just lack this simple awareness. I'll often stand in the fairway and watch the group in front of me on the green and I can't even tell who's turn it is to play based on their actions. Two guys are sort of walking around and two guys are just standing there. No one is getting ready to address their ball. The new flagstick rule isn't going to make up for a lack of awareness, which is the root of slow play.



    I play a lot of golf as a single at busy public courses on weekends so I get paired up most of the time. And the overall lack of awareness just never ceases to amaze me.



    I don't like the new rule, but if I get paired up with some random strangers who don't have good awareness and I can go ahead and putt (because I'm furthest away but they are both daydreaming instead of getting the flag) then great. In that case, the rule serves some purpose.



    And if you're in the group in front of me and you feel like it helped speed up your group, that's great for both you and me. Hit em straight image/golfer.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':golfer:' />
  • aliikanealiikane Members Posts: 1,619 ✭✭
    I'm not a fan of the rule because it does make things more complicated and mostly likely more time consuming. Every player will have different preference on if they want to use the flag or not. With the previous rule, it was easy no flag while putting. Simple and a no brainer.
  • GolfjackGolfjack All about the rotation Members Posts: 1,055 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:


    I have only one comment on the flag in thing:



    I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.



    I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me to the contrary, and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL



    As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.



    The pin thing is like that.



    Science. LOL




    Yeah I just called it a shooter's bounce. Used to really hate those super stiff rims. The ones which are not made for dunking. The ones where people have dunked quite a few times are super friendly.



    I did see a highlight for Gary Woodland sinking his eagle, and the stick sure helped on that one. Great putt.
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  • puttingmattputtingmatt puttingmatt Summer/ Michigan-- Winter/ FloridaMembers Posts: 5,134 ✭✭
    Its all about choice. I welcome the change, see advantages

    For using this rule change. But overall, should be a non issue

    Cause a golfer has a choice.


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  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,787 ✭✭
    it's definitely faster to leave flag in. Also makes for some bold putting for some reason. Great change. Now it makes playing with someone who wants to pull the flag out for putting....irritating. something new to annoy me. Cheers
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    It’s faster which is great and I personally think it helps me have something to one up.
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  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,199 ✭✭
    edited Jan 7, 2019 2:44pm #120
    i don't think leaving the pin in will hurt anyones score. i do think its debateable on how much it will help....especially when it comes to putting. i get leaving it in on chips.



    i'm predicting that in 3 years there will be only a few if any guys still removing the pins to putt. there just isn't any reason to take it out other than you think it looks weird.
    i've had so many chips miss with the flag in, some were due to excess speed and others probably because the flag was leaning. Unfortunately, those situations have been burned in my skull and taking the pin out is a must on any makeable shot for me.



    An interesting conversation that really hasn't been mentioned yet is green stimp vs effectiveness. On really fast greens the ball should be rolling at a "slower make speed near the hole", and this slower speed around the hole will make the pin less of a negative factor. On super slow muni greens the "make speed"will be up, and ricochets could be way more likely.



    Just assume 2 equal length putts, one at Augusta and the other at a slow muni. If you leave each putt 3' long of the hole, the one at Augusta likely trickled by the hole, where the muni ball was going a decent speed to end at the same spot.
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  • canadawormcanadaworm Members Posts: 33
    Dr. Block wrote:


    If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the hole should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the **** thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.


    Most of the time I just take the flag stick to the next tee box. Then javelin toss it back to the green.
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