Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in

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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭






    Is this treading in the same territory as the "bigger holes" thing? Changing the cup (or the flagstick within the cup) to improve a putt's chance of going in?
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,673 ✭✭







    Is this treading in the same territory as the "bigger holes" thing? Changing the cup (or the flagstick within the cup) to improve a putt's chance of going in?




    Of course it is. Maybe small but certainly in that direction.
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  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,510 ClubWRX
    davep043 wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    Apologies Dave but what you quoted is the max, there is no stated min and no standard. In a different thread I brought up the topic of tapered pins and the impact that would make on the decision to leave the flag in or out.


    This is accurate, all that we have is a maximum diameter, and a circular cross section. Actually, there IS a maximum diameter of 2 inches, and I've seen flagsticks that taper from a small tip to a thicker middle. The other prohibitions are that it can't be designed to absorb shocks, and it cant be designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball. I wonder whether a flagstick that tapers at about green level would be disallowed for unduly influencing the ball. I can see that a flagstick that tapers at that level could tend to deflect a putted ball more downward.




    That was exactly my point in the other thread regarding tapered pins. Those that are thinner at the bottom would seem to provide an advantage when putting with the stick in. It wouldn't seem as though the "intention" of the rules is for a pin to provide any advantage whatsoever.


    In my memory, which admittedly is far from perfect, when I've played a course with "tapered" flagsticks, the taper occurs at some significant distance above the ground, well above the height of a rolling golf ball. So I started googling. I can see places to purchase tapered flagsticks, but no real descriptions. Then I stumbled onto this article:

    http://archive.lib.m...e/2008jun22.pdf

    Apparently a superintendent did a moderately scientific test of three different flagstick models. You can read for yourself, but thhey did find a slight difference between a standard straight 1/2" model and a 3/4" tapered model. In both cases, the portion of the stick within 12" of the surface was 1/2" diameter. I wonder of Bryson has read this.



    Oh my, I just stumbled onto another one, "The Putt-Saver Technology is a precisely tapered fagstick angle to direct your ball into the cup."

    https://www.standard...2/puttsaver.pdf

    I wonder if that violates this requirement:
    The flagstick must not:

    a. incorporate features, including materials, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball, or

    b. have features or properties which are designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball, or





    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.
  • Mr. GrumpyMr. Grumpy The Quintana Changeup, sit em dwn Members Posts: 2,318 ✭✭
    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,246 ✭✭
    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 12:19pm #157
    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.
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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,891 ClubWRX
    I chuckle at the "we will all agree that within ___ feet it's coming out (or leaving it in)" stuff and the silly "they'll quickly see it our way" attitude - even if it a minority. A tricky 1,2,3,4,5,6 footer may make a difference whether it needs to be in or out for a particular player.



    Putting some peer pressure element into it is really against the essence of the game.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 12:43pm #159
    Hawkeye77 wrote:


    I chuckle at the "we will all agree that within ___ feet it's coming out (or leaving it in)" stuff and the silly "they'll quickly see it our way" attitude - even if it a minority. A tricky 1,2,3,4,5,6 footer may make a difference whether it needs to be in or out for a particular player.



    Putting some peer pressure element into it is really against the essence of the game.




    Yup. I don't want to be guilted into leaving the stick out because of some blood oath everyone took on the first tee.



    It's personal preference, embrace that everyone is different (particularly on a site where we tell guys to "do what works for you").
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,510 ClubWRX
    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.




    Makes sense. I usually quote more text than necessary. For sure, I would think if you are in the business of selling a commodity (flagstick), any way you can differentiate yourself from the competition is a good thing.



    I suppose something about the angle of the taper would cause the ball to deflect more downward than it otherwise would have without the taper?



    Kind of funny that in 2019, "flagstick tech" is a hot-button issue image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />



    We can kid, but it is this type of analysis that will continue providing competitive advantages going forward. People laugh about a 300 RPM difference in spin, or a .03 advantage in strokes gained from doing X, Y or Z. The advantages are so small they are seen in fractions of a stroke per round. But if you do enough of the "little things" they add up.
    Cobra LTD Driver
    Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
    In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
    Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
    Cobra F7 One Length Irons
    Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
    6I = 24* 7I = 29* 8I = 34* 9I = 39* PW = 44* GW = 49* SW = 54* LW = 59*
    Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
    Maxfli SoftFli
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,673 ✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?




    Let’s not defend them too much. We haven’t forgot about the groove rule ( does nothing but cause people in competition to have to buy new irons and wedges )



    At The us open at oakmont they used hi def zoom , gnat cameras to see DJs ball. Maybe move. Then inform him mid back 9 Sunday he may want to look at it and side with them. After his playing partner and an attending official said he was good.



    Or the time they declared singles couldn’t post rounds. Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds. Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.



    To call singles dishonest for no reason and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move “ accidentally “ just slaps people in the face if you’re trying to use logic.



    The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,246 ✭✭
    DavePelz4 wrote:


    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content.


    I hope you're talking about someone other than this particular 63-year old fat ugly Dave

    davep043 wrote:

    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?




    Let's not defend them too much. We haven't forgot about the groove rule ( does nothing but cause people in competition to have to buy new irons and wedges )



    At The us open at oakmont they used hi def zoom , gnat cameras to see DJs ball. Maybe move. Then inform him mid back 9 Sunday he may want to look at it and side with them. After his playing partner and an attending official said he was good.



    Or the time they declared singles couldn't post rounds. Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds. Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.



    To call singles dishonest for no reason and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move " accidentally " just slaps people in the face if you're trying to use logic.



    The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.


    I wasn't defending anyone, I was trying to lampoon Mr. Grumpy's complete lack of anything to say.



    But really, the groove rule hasn't taken effect for (guessing here) over 99% of all golfers, and most of us will have bought conforming wedges sometime in the 14 years between the initiation of the rule, and the time it DOES take effect for all players. I just don't quite understand the vitriol over a rule that doesn't impact most of us.



    As for high-def cameras, the USGA enforced the rules in effect at the time, as they're required to do. They also took steps to minimize that particular issue going forward, a pretty reasonable response.



    As for posting rounds you play by yourself, why should those scores be used to calculate a handicap that, by definition of the purpose of handicap, you only use when you're competing against someone else? Makes good sense to me to count only scores played in the company of other players. It has little to do with honesty, and more to do with logic. Actually, it makes more sense to count only competitive scores, but at least it was a move in the right direction.



    But again, this isn't the place for a debate on the USGA as a whole. It IS a place for discussion of Mr. Chamblee's advice about the flagstick, and Mr Grumpy didn't seem prepared to discuss anything at all.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    rawdog wrote:

    Hawkeye77 wrote:


    I chuckle at the "we will all agree that within ___ feet it's coming out (or leaving it in)" stuff and the silly "they'll quickly see it our way" attitude - even if it a minority. A tricky 1,2,3,4,5,6 footer may make a difference whether it needs to be in or out for a particular player.



    Putting some peer pressure element into it is really against the essence of the game.




    Yup. I don't want to be guilted into leaving the stick out because of some blood oath everyone took on the first tee.



    It's personal preference, embrace that everyone is different (particularly on a site where we tell guys to "do what works for you").




    That's quite a different approach than what you said in post #5 on this very same thread. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,791 ✭✭

    davep043 wrote:

    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?




    Or the time they declared singles couldn't post rounds. Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds. Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.



    To call singles dishonest for no reason and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move " accidentally " just slaps people in the face if you're trying to use logic.



    The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.




    So singles that couldn't post their rounds eliminated WALKERS from posting rounds ? LOL



    What are the 3 LARGEST complaints about golf ?



    Right. Cost, slow play (and the time it takes in general) and SANDBAGGING.



    So singles can't post their rounds bothers you why again ? LOL



    A cornerstone of handicapping is "peer review". Of which, BTW, there is NONE when someone plays alone (not that there would be much if he was playing with strangers,,,,, or even with friends for that matter.



    But that's a different story and one that hopefully will be addressed by the WW handicapping changes for NEXT year.,,,,,,,



    Define "irony". Someone defending a single's ability to post scores for handicaps by the guy who is probably the most vociferous on the site about the sandbaggers at HIS club.



    Talk about irony. image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />

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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,791 ✭✭

    rawdog wrote:

    Hawkeye77 wrote:


    I chuckle at the "we will all agree that within ___ feet it's coming out (or leaving it in)" stuff and the silly "they'll quickly see it our way" attitude - even if it a minority. A tricky 1,2,3,4,5,6 footer may make a difference whether it needs to be in or out for a particular player.



    Putting some peer pressure element into it is really against the essence of the game.




    Yup. I don't want to be guilted into leaving the stick out because of some blood oath everyone took on the first tee.



    It's personal preference, embrace that everyone is different (particularly on a site where we tell guys to "do what works for you").




    That's quite a different approach than what you said in post #5 on this very same thread. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />




    The "emojis" matter.



    I'd say post #5, with the "smilie", was at least a little bit "tongue in cheek". Wouldn't you agree ? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />






    rawdog wrote:

    GMR wrote:


    The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.




    Interesting point.



    So you're really willing to play worse to avoid a perceived annoyance? Dang, dude.



    The default for a pin is in... I'd say those who want it out are being annoying image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    ^^

    Haha for sure. I was just busting on him. image/golfer.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':golfer:' />
  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,510 ClubWRX
    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.




    Makes sense. I usually quote more text than necessary. For sure, I would think if you are in the business of selling a commodity (flagstick), any way you can differentiate yourself from the competition is a good thing.



    I suppose something about the angle of the taper would cause the ball to deflect more downward than it otherwise would have without the taper?



    Kind of funny that in 2019, "flagstick tech" is a hot-button issue image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />



    We can kid, but it is this type of analysis that will continue providing competitive advantages going forward. People laugh about a 300 RPM difference in spin, or a .03 advantage in strokes gained from doing X, Y or Z. The advantages are so small they are seen in fractions of a stroke per round. But if you do enough of the "little things" they add up.




    It's winter with limited playing opportunities and now that football season is over in Chicago, we can focus on minute details of a ball hitting an upright metal object.



    Oh wait...this reminds me of Cody Parkey and the mistake on the Lake from Sunday.
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,791 ✭✭
    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.




    Now, now, let's not cast aspersions on Mrs. Pelz' choices.



    Thank you. image/hi.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hi:' />

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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.




    Makes sense. I usually quote more text than necessary. For sure, I would think if you are in the business of selling a commodity (flagstick), any way you can differentiate yourself from the competition is a good thing.



    I suppose something about the angle of the taper would cause the ball to deflect more downward than it otherwise would have without the taper?



    Kind of funny that in 2019, "flagstick tech" is a hot-button issue image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />



    We can kid, but it is this type of analysis that will continue providing competitive advantages going forward. People laugh about a 300 RPM difference in spin, or a .03 advantage in strokes gained from doing X, Y or Z. The advantages are so small they are seen in fractions of a stroke per round. But if you do enough of the "little things" they add up.




    It's winter with limited playing opportunities and now that football season is over in Chicago, we can focus on minute details of a ball hitting an upright metal object.



    Oh wait...this reminds me of Cody Parkey and the mistake on the Lake from Sunday.




    The flagstick clearly kept that ball out!! Should have had Trubisky down there attending it for him.
  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,510 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 8, 2019 1:57pm #171
    nsxguy wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.




    Now, now, let's not cast aspersions on Mrs. Pelz' choices.



    Thank you. image/hi.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hi:' />




    After conferring, her preference is the stick out. Always. Prefers a different room, too although I have no idea of how that is related to this topic.
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,791 ✭✭
    DavePelz4 wrote:

    nsxguy wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.




    Now, now, let's not cast aspersions on Mrs. Pelz' choices.



    Thank you. image/hi.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hi:' />




    After conferring, her preference is the stick out. Always. Prefers a different room, too although I have no idea of how that is related to this topic.




    So long as her preference isn't the "much more handsome Dave" !!! image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, 20*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300
    Cleveland RTX-4 48, 52, DGS300
    Ping Glide Forged 56*, 60* DGS300
    Odyssey Jailbird Mini (Today - always subject to change LOL)
    Titleist AVX
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX
    nsxguy wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?




    Or the time they declared singles couldn't post rounds. Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds. Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.



    To call singles dishonest for no reason and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move " accidentally " just slaps people in the face if you're trying to use logic.



    The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.




    So singles that couldn't post their rounds eliminated WALKERS from posting rounds ? LOL



    What are the 3 LARGEST complaints about golf ?



    Right. Cost, slow play (and the time it takes in general) and SANDBAGGING.



    So singles can't post their rounds bothers you why again ? LOL



    A cornerstone of handicapping is "peer review". Of which, BTW, there is NONE when someone plays alone (not that there would be much if he was playing with strangers,,,,, or even with friends for that matter.



    But that's a different story and one that hopefully will be addressed by the WW handicapping changes for NEXT year.,,,,,,,



    Define "irony". Someone defending a single's ability to post scores for handicaps by the guy who is probably the most vociferous on the site about the sandbaggers at HIS club.



    Talk about irony. image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />




    Preach!



    Totally agree with not letting singles post their scores. 100%.
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    nsxguy wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?




    Or the time they declared singles couldn't post rounds. Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds. Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.



    To call singles dishonest for no reason and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move " accidentally " just slaps people in the face if you're trying to use logic.



    The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.




    So singles that couldn't post their rounds eliminated WALKERS from posting rounds ? LOL



    What are the 3 LARGEST complaints about golf ?



    Right. Cost, slow play (and the time it takes in general) and SANDBAGGING.



    So singles can't post their rounds bothers you why again ? LOL



    A cornerstone of handicapping is "peer review". Of which, BTW, there is NONE when someone plays alone (not that there would be much if he was playing with strangers,,,,, or even with friends for that matter.



    But that's a different story and one that hopefully will be addressed by the WW handicapping changes for NEXT year.,,,,,,,



    Define "irony". Someone defending a single's ability to post scores for handicaps by the guy who is probably the most vociferous on the site about the sandbaggers at HIS club.



    Talk about irony. image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />




    Preach!



    Totally agree with not letting singles post their scores. 100%.




    I was actually wondering about this the other day. What about in a US Open when an odd number of players make the cut and someone goes out on the weekend as a single and they elect not to use a marker. They are a single playing in a USGA event. Obviously there are throngs of people and cameras to verify whatever score they shoot, but it still seems odd, doesn't it?
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,246 ✭✭




    I was actually wondering about this the other day. What about in a US Open when an odd number of players make the cut and someone goes out on the weekend as a single and they elect not to use a marker. They are a single playing in a USGA event. Obviously there are throngs of people and cameras to verify whatever score they shoot, but it still seems odd, doesn't it?


    For the most part, those guys aren't posting scores, although I suppose its possible for an amateur to be the high score playing on day 3. I'd have to believe that there's always an official marker assigned to a single player, even if its not someone playing.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX


    I was actually wondering about this the other day. What about in a US Open when an odd number of players make the cut and someone goes out on the weekend as a single and they elect not to use a marker. They are a single playing in a USGA event. Obviously there are throngs of people and cameras to verify whatever score they shoot, but it still seems odd, doesn't it?




    I'm fairly certain that you can't elect to "not use a marker." Even if you don't have a "playing marker," you have a marker.
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:



    I was actually wondering about this the other day. What about in a US Open when an odd number of players make the cut and someone goes out on the weekend as a single and they elect not to use a marker. They are a single playing in a USGA event. Obviously there are throngs of people and cameras to verify whatever score they shoot, but it still seems odd, doesn't it?




    I'm fairly certain that you can't elect to "not use a marker." Even if you don't have a "playing marker," you have a marker.




    I knew that you had the option of using a playing marker or not. I believe someone at Kapalua (Keegan Bradley maybe?) played as a single without a playing marker one day and the announcers were commenting on how fast his round was.



    But you're probably right in that there is still someone out there attesting your card.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:

    rawdog wrote:

    DavePelz4 wrote:


    There is a marketing opportunity here for the tapered flagstick. 5% more birdies is a nice competitive advantage. Now...whether it's within the rules...another story.




    Doubt it would be 5% difference on putts. The tests you linked to were to simulate chips.



    The ball was rolling down a 10 foot slope at a grade of 20%. (Ten foot long pipe with end raised 2 feet off ground).



    The pipe exit was 14 inches from the hole. The ball would've been CRUISING way past the hole, much further than a typical putt.



    EDIT: My brain didn't comprehend that maybe you meant marketing angle beyond just the putting with flagstick in rule change.




    I responded to the research, the younger and much more handsome Dave provided the content. My comment was purely that if you were selling flagsticks, being able to say on "this test data" we saw 5% more putts/chips/pitches go in is certainly a feature of a pin. Again, the question of the variance of the diameter and how that factors into the rules is certainly a consideration.




    Makes sense. I usually quote more text than necessary. For sure, I would think if you are in the business of selling a commodity (flagstick), any way you can differentiate yourself from the competition is a good thing.



    I suppose something about the angle of the taper would cause the ball to deflect more downward than it otherwise would have without the taper?



    Kind of funny that in 2019, "flagstick tech" is a hot-button issue image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />



    We can kid, but it is this type of analysis that will continue providing competitive advantages going forward. People laugh about a 300 RPM difference in spin, or a .03 advantage in strokes gained from doing X, Y or Z. The advantages are so small they are seen in fractions of a stroke per round. But if you do enough of the "little things" they add up.




    It's winter with limited playing opportunities and now that football season is over in Chicago, we can focus on minute details of a ball hitting an upright metal object.



    Oh wait...this reminds me of Cody Parkey and the mistake on the Lake from Sunday.




    Cleveland is the O.G. "Mistake on the Lake"! I don't feel too bad for Chi-town. Both teams with a World Series past 15 years image/biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />



    So, with that, I share O.G. Phil Dawson showing the proper way to hit a crossbar (or stanchion).



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  • QuigleyDUQuigleyDU Members Posts: 6,915 ✭✭
    when i am playing by myself, i have always left the flag in. Simply because i didn't want to walk back and forth to pull and then place the flag.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,673 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 10:26am #180
    nsxguy wrote:


    davep043 wrote:

    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?




    Or the time they declared singles couldn't post rounds. Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds. Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.



    To call singles dishonest for no reason and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move " accidentally " just slaps people in the face if you're trying to use logic.



    The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.




    So singles that couldn't post their rounds eliminated WALKERS from posting rounds ? LOL



    What are the 3 LARGEST complaints about golf ?



    Right. Cost, slow play (and the time it takes in general) and SANDBAGGING.



    So singles can't post their rounds bothers you why again ? LOL



    A cornerstone of handicapping is "peer review". Of which, BTW, there is NONE when someone plays alone (not that there would be much if he was playing with strangers,,,,, or even with friends for that matter.



    But that's a different story and one that hopefully will be addressed by the WW handicapping changes for NEXT year.,,,,,,,



    Define "irony". Someone defending a single's ability to post scores for handicaps by the guy who is probably the most vociferous on the site about the sandbaggers at HIS club.



    Talk about irony. image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />




    Most baggers travel in packs. It’s the regular 4 somes that breed this. Takes playing partners who don’t say anything to get it done. Singles are opposite if anything. Do overs etc equal a vanity cap. Not a bagger.



    Think about it. If you wanted to cheat as a single. Just enter fake scores . No need to play. Sandbaggers arent erased now that singles can’t post. So the point doesn’t hold water.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX

    nsxguy wrote:


    davep043 wrote:

    Mr. Grumpy wrote:


    Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...


    Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear. How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?




    Or the time they declared singles couldn't post rounds. Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds. Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.



    To call singles dishonest for no reason and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move " accidentally " just slaps people in the face if you're trying to use logic.



    The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.




    So singles that couldn't post their rounds eliminated WALKERS from posting rounds ? LOL



    What are the 3 LARGEST complaints about golf ?



    Right. Cost, slow play (and the time it takes in general) and SANDBAGGING.



    So singles can't post their rounds bothers you why again ? LOL



    A cornerstone of handicapping is "peer review". Of which, BTW, there is NONE when someone plays alone (not that there would be much if he was playing with strangers,,,,, or even with friends for that matter.



    But that's a different story and one that hopefully will be addressed by the WW handicapping changes for NEXT year.,,,,,,,



    Define "irony". Someone defending a single's ability to post scores for handicaps by the guy who is probably the most vociferous on the site about the sandbaggers at HIS club.



    Talk about irony. image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />




    Most baggers travel in packs. It's the regular 4 somes that breed this. Takes playing partners who don't say anything to get it done. Singles are opposite if anything. Do overs etc equal a vanity cap. Not a bagger.



    Think about it. If you wanted to cheat as a single. Just enter fake scores . No need to play. Sandbaggers arent erased now that singles can't post. So the point doesn't hold water.




    You have that half-right:



    Sandbaggers usually do have a regular "group" where sandbagging is just part of the deal. They're ALL sandbaggers.



    However, one of the ways they sandbag is that they go and play "late afternoon" rounds alone (or sometimes with the wife) and miraculously always shoot well above their average score. Believe me, I was handicap chairman for a minute. It's rampant....
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