Callaway Rogue SZ vs. Callaway Epic Flash SZ Updated

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CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf ProfessionalMembers  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
Joined:  edited Jan 18, 2019 in Equipment #1
Hey all,



Here is my first test of the Epic Flash SZ, using the Foresight GCquad. Please note that this is my first time swinging the Flash, and I do not have it as well tuned to my swing as I do the Rogue SZ, which I have been using for a year. I used a Chrome Soft X for both Drivers, and got a solid warmup with my irons beforehand, so I was fully warmed up for both Drivers.



I also used the same shaft on both clubs, Diamana Kai'li (blueboard) 60s real deal shaft, 43.5". I had the Flash slider in a neutral setting. For reference I am 5'7 150lbs, 32yrs old.



Here are some side by side pics of the 2 for starters:



PDF of results below:

Here are some new numbers from today with the lighter 12g slider put back in, and same 14g weight in front. Shaft on S/N. I wasnt swinging it as fast or hitting the middle as well today, i was kind of fighting my swing obviously. It happens...Anyways, I was hitting it farther with slower speeds and smash. I did hit one after exporting this file that carried 284 with 161 ball speed(go figure). These settings are much better for my swing.



January 18th:

Posted:
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  • JakeW13JakeW13 Members  98WRX Points: 121Handicap: 4.1Posts: 98 Fairways
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    Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.
    Posted:
    Driver: Ping G410 Plus, 9 Degrees Flat setting, Weight Neutral, Accra TZ5 65 M5
    FW: Titleist TS2 3W, 15 Degrees, Graphite Design Tour AD Blue 75 X
    3 Iron: Taylormade P790s, Nippon Pro Modus Tour 105S
    4-PW: Ping Blueprint, Red Dot Power Spec, DG 120 S300
    50: Cleveland RTX DG S400
    54&60: Cleveland CBX KBS 610 Wedge S
    Putter: Taylormade Spider X Navy 34"
    Ball: Taylormade TP5x (2019)
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  • BankerBanker The SwampMembers  1137WRX Points: 170Handicap: 4Posts: 1,137 Platinum Tees
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    The Flash looks good. Best looking driver I think Cally has put out since the ft-3 tour. I’ll definitely be putting this up against my g400 LST. But looks like i need to look for the 9* Flash, not 10.....
    Posted:
    Epic Flash SZ 10.5 Phenom 60x
    G410 3 wood Accra t70x
    G410 19* hybrid KBS Hybrid Proto 95x
    G410 4-PW KBS 120 Tour
    Glide 2.0 54* ES
    Glide 2.0 58* ES
    Taylormade Spider Tour
  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Members  7353WRX Points: 412Handicap: 5Posts: 7,353 Titanium Tees
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    Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?
    Posted:
  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jan 4, 2019 #5
    SwooshLT wrote:


    Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?




    Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.



    on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.



    That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.
    Posted:
    Callaway
  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Members  7353WRX Points: 412Handicap: 5Posts: 7,353 Titanium Tees
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    SwooshLT wrote:


    Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?




    Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.



    on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.



    That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.




    Thing is the rogue looks great to my eye but if flash is launching higher, I'm all for that!
    Posted:
  • jmconnell4jmconnell4 Members  190WRX Points: 40Handicap: 3Posts: 190 Fairways
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    Looks like they are very similar. Makes in unlikely that I will upgrade from my Rogue SZ.



    What is your driver swing speed out of curiosity?
    Posted:

    PING G410 LST w/ Rogue 130 Silver 60x
    PING G410 3w w/ Graphite Design AD IZ-7x
    Callaway 18° X Forged UT - Graphite Design AD IZ 95x Hybrid
    RAW 4-PW Callaway Apex Pro - KBS Tour-Vx
    Raw Vokey SM7 50-12s, 54-10s, & 58-10s - DG S400
    Scotty Cameron 35" Studio Select Newport 2
    Taylormade 35" Spider X
    Titleist Pro-V1

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  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
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    jmconnell4 wrote:


    Looks like they are very similar. Makes in unlikely that I will upgrade from my Rogue SZ.



    What is your driver swing speed out of curiosity?




    Its in the club stats portion of the PDF, although People with more knowledge of the GCquads algorithm process claim the club speed can get slightly inflated due to lower smash factor than trackman, but the GCquad has me at 110 +/-2mph.
    Posted:
    Callaway
  • Rory4PresRory4Pres Members  1340WRX Points: 374Handicap: 1Posts: 1,340 Platinum Tees
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    Thanks for posting OP. I'm going to take away the notion that I will gain roughly 1" on my drives per $9.50 more I spend on the newest model. (based on gaining about .9 yards and the Rogue being worth about $200 lightly used.
    Posted:

    -Cobra F8+ driver w/ Tensei pro orange -TS3/TS2 15* w/ Evenflow -818 H2 17* w/ Atmos -816 H2 19* w/ Motore Speeder -MP32's w/ Rifles

    -Vokeys 46.06, 52.12, 60.04/60.07 -Kingston KP1 welded Long neck 350g

  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
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    Rory4Pres wrote:


    Thanks for posting OP. I'm going to take away the notion that I will gain roughly 1" on my drives per $9.50 more I spend on the newest model. (based on gaining about .9 yards and the Rogue being worth about $200 lightly used.




    Agreed. Spend it on lessons if you want to lower your hdcp. A 1 year newer driver isnt gonna go 10 yards farther when the COR of .83 has been maxed out in drivers since 2007, nor will it help your game. All thats happening is longer shafts and higher ball speeds on mishits. This club was great on high toe mishits, which will help keep that distance up. It also didnt hook as much off the toe, which was nice. Its not gonna go much farther than rogue, thats a pipe dream. more details to come.
    Posted:
    Callaway
  • provxprovx Members  875WRX Points: 113Posts: 875 Golden Tee
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    My first thought was this reminded me on ft-3 tour
    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max 9* Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
    Ping G400 3 crossover Alta stiff
    Callaway Apex 4-SW recoil 780 stiff
    Cleveland cbx 60* recoil stiff
    Biomech Acculock
    Snell MTB Black
  • LobberLobber Members  2538WRX Points: 215Posts: 2,538 Titanium Tees
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    Not much in it compared to last years model. Similar results found by Shiels although he gained 1.5 MPH in ball speed with Flash SZ. His findings with M5 and M6 were about the same - not much difference compared to last year's models and actual ball speeds a bit lower. Going to be hard to displace my TS2.
    Posted:
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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9315WRX Points: 1,469Posts: 9,315 Titanium Tees
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    $550 for 1 yard? No thanks.



    Imagine anybody coming from M3/M4, Rogue, etc will see maybe a max of 2-3 yards gain. Up to the player if the cost is worth it.
    Posted:
    Epic SZ 9* set to 10* | Tour Z Xtreme 465
    16* M1 | Tour Z Xtreme 475
    19.75* M1 | Diamana B70
    818H1 23* | Tensei CK White 90
    5-PW P760 | Modus 120
    Glide 3.0 50/12, 54/12, 58/10 | S400 Ti
    Directed Force 2.1 or Custom EVNROLL ER5
    Tour BXS "TIGER"
  • ram01002ram01002 Members  1945WRX Points: 153Posts: 1,945 Platinum Tees
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    Flash headshape looks awesome
    Posted:
  • KC13KC13 31st StateMembers  513WRX Points: 209Handicap: Newborn BabyPosts: 513 Golden Tee
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    The Epic Flash has the bells and whistles but I must admit, might of been the placebo effect when I was hitting the new Epic Flash. Like stated above, a new driver is not going to out preform a 1 year old driver by 10 yards and your numbers prove it.



    I still want it though cause its new and shiny!!! hahaha...



    - KC
    Posted:
    Driver: Srixon Z 785 (10.5*) w/Grafalloy HandCrafted ProLaunch Red Prototype X
    Wood: Cleveland 588 (18*) w/Project X HandCrafted Max Carry 75g 6.5
    Hybrid: Cleveland Tour Mashie (20.5*) w/Project X Catalyst 80hy 6.5
    Irons: Srixon Z 785 (4i-PW) w/Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX-4 Raw (50, 54, 60) w/Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400
    Putter: Cleveland TFi 2135 1.0 w/BGT Stability Shaft
    Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV
  • radimanradiman Members  4753WRX Points: 366Handicap: 3.8Posts: 4,753 Titanium Tees
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    So, about that heavier sliding weight. Where did you happen upon such a thing. I typically have to add some weight to the head to get the feel right. Especially with a counter balanced shaft now.
    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9* HZRDUS Smoke Green "The Hulk" 60 6.5TX
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15* Evenflow Black 75 6.5
    Callaway X-Forged UT 21* w/Motore Speeder TS 8.8 X
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW KBS 130X
    Taylormade Spider X Navy/White 35"
    Callaway MD3 52, 56, 60
    All sitting comfortably in my Sun Mountain Sync Cart Bag
  • ShipwreckShipwreck Members  4004WRX Points: 322Handicap: 6.2Posts: 4,004 Titanium Tees
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    Any chance that you need a slightly lower launch/spin shaft since that Diamana has you launching a bit higher? Maybe something to consider when doing your fine tuning with the Flash. Might net you a few more yards (although probably not enough to toss away the Rogue)
    Posted:

    Bag as of 14MAY2019
    Driver - Cobra F9 Speedback w/ Evenflow White 76x
    3w - Cobra F8 w/ HZRDS RED 6.5
    Hybrid - Cobra F7 w/ Fuji VTS Silver Stiff
    Irons - Titleist 718 AP2 w/ AMT S300 Tour White 4-9
    Wedges Titleist SM7 w/ AMT S300 Tour White 46/50/54/60
    Putter - Odyssey O-Works #7

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  • GolfyGolfyGolfyGolfy Members  285WRX Points: 50Posts: 285 Greens
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    SwooshLT wrote:


    Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?




    Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.



    on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.



    That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.


    Can you weigh the heads with the adjust weights to see the difference. More weight would definitely add more dynamic loft
    Posted:
  • skralyskraly ClubWRX  1656WRX Points: 185Posts: 1,656 ClubWRX
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    Rory4Pres wrote:


    Thanks for posting OP. I'm going to take away the notion that I will gain roughly 1" on my drives per $9.50 more I spend on the newest model. (based on gaining about .9 yards and the Rogue being worth about $200 lightly used.




    Agreed. Spend it on lessons if you want to lower your hdcp. A 1 year newer driver isnt gonna go 10 yards farther when the COR of .83 has been maxed out in drivers since 2007, nor will it help your game. All thats happening is longer shafts and higher ball speeds on mishits. This club was great on high toe mishits, which will help keep that distance up. It also didnt hook as much off the toe, which was nice. Its not gonna go much farther than rogue, thats a pipe dream. more details to come.


    Callaway is claiming that they have found a way to keep the face within the USGA CT limits(CT is what they are using now to measure face deflection), while increasing COR beyond the old .83 limit. So your statement that the COR has been max'ed may not be accurate. But I agree that improving your swing will bring greater benefits than a new driver could deliver.
    Posted:
  • gyro25gyro25 Members  156WRX Points: 31Posts: 156 Fairways
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    I hit it yesterday at a fitting and it felt great. But we didn't spend much time on it as the fitting was more for shaft selection or a combo with like g400 max. I had a case of the hooks so my numbers were off but the couple solid ones were great. I gotta get my results from then actually.
    Posted:
  • stk123stk123 Members  455WRX Points: 97Posts: 455 Greens
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    JakeW13 wrote:


    Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.




    I am going to disagree on this one. It is obvious that the Rogue is dialed for the OP, as he hit is consistently compared to the Epic Flash. Where the Epic Flash shines is that it has better dispersion and the best drive was way better than the best drive with the Rogue.



    It just looks to me like a couple of bad/subpar shots with high spin caused the average carry/total yard numbers to get closer to the Rogue.



    i would try to find a way to lower spin with the Flash. As the extra launch angle with lower spin will probably add another 5y+ and make it stand out much better than the Rogue. Try lowering the rear sliding weight back to 14g and keep the heavier weight up front. That will even out the head weights of the 2 drivers and should lower spin rates. It should help a lot IMO.
    Posted:
  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
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    stk123 wrote:

    JakeW13 wrote:


    Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.




    I am going to disagree on this one. It is obvious that the Rogue is dialed for the OP, as he hit is consistently compared to the Epic Flash. Where the Epic Flash shines is that it has better dispersion and the best drive was way better than the best drive with the Rogue.



    It just looks to me like a couple of bad/subpar shots with high spin caused the average carry/total yard numbers to get closer to the Rogue.



    i would try to find a way to lower spin with the Flash. As the extra launch angle with lower spin will probably add another 5y+ and make it stand out much better than the Rogue. Try lowering the rear sliding weight back to 14g and keep the heavier weight up front. That will even out the head weights of the 2 drivers and should lower spin rates. It should help a lot IMO.




    I am still fine tuning the Flash and will def squeeze a few more yds once I get it where i want it. I struggled a bit with the Rogue at first too, until I figured out a weight combo/shaft setting that worked for me.



    Dispersion is much better for me. The difference on high toe shots is fantastic. They used to be knuckle hooks with the rogue, and feel flush and go much straighter with Flash.
    Posted:
    Callaway
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  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
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    radiman wrote:


    So, about that heavier sliding weight. Where did you happen upon such a thing. I typically have to add some weight to the head to get the feel right. Especially with a counter balanced shaft now.




    When Callaway sent me the head, it came with an extra slider. I was surprised. Not sure if they will be doing this for commercial but they should. Cant cost them but an extra dollar and the response would be worth it IMO.
    Posted:
    Callaway
  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
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    GolfyGolfy wrote:


    SwooshLT wrote:


    Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?




    Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.



    on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.



    That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.


    Can you weigh the heads with the adjust weights to see the difference. More weight would definitely add more dynamic loft




    I will have to check the kitchen at our club for a digital lol, I dont have one. Maybe someone has done this already and i can find it online?
    Posted:
    Callaway
  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #25
    stk123 wrote:

    JakeW13 wrote:


    Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.




    I am going to disagree on this one. It is obvious that the Rogue is dialed for the OP, as he hit is consistently compared to the Epic Flash. Where the Epic Flash shines is that it has better dispersion and the best drive was way better than the best drive with the Rogue.



    It just looks to me like a couple of bad/subpar shots with high spin caused the average carry/total yard numbers to get closer to the Rogue.



    i would try to find a way to lower spin with the Flash. As the extra launch angle with lower spin will probably add another 5y+ and make it stand out much better than the Rogue. Try lowering the rear sliding weight back to 14g and keep the heavier weight up front. That will even out the head weights of the 2 drivers and should lower spin rates. It should help a lot IMO.




    I am planning on trying this, yes. I lowered the loft to 8* and started getting spin rates around 2k, but id rather not do it that way. I will be doing some tinkering for sure.
    Posted:
    Callaway
  • GolfyGolfyGolfyGolfy Members  285WRX Points: 50Posts: 285 Greens
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    GolfyGolfy wrote:


    SwooshLT wrote:


    Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?




    Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.



    on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.



    That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.


    Can you weigh the heads with the adjust weights to see the difference. More weight would definitely add more dynamic loft




    I will have to check the kitchen at our club for a digital lol, I dont have one. Maybe someone has done this already and i can find it online?


    Each head weighs differently so I would suggest that you actually weight out yours. Remember about 3 grams will be about 1 SW point in the head
    Posted:
  • stk123stk123 Members  455WRX Points: 97Posts: 455 Greens
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    I always though 2g is 1 SW point. It is for irons at least. Do driver heads SW different than irons?
    Posted:
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  • Pleasedwith3puttsPleasedwith3putts Members  1755WRX Points: 137Posts: 1,755 Platinum Tees
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    I would experiment with ball position ahead of doing anything. I like a good positive angle of attack but I'm guessing from the numbers that the AOA might be a bi-product of the ball being a bit too far forwards. Clues are club path is a little more out to in than I'd want with an open clubface to compensate.



    Try moving the ball back a little and comparing data, looking to get a more neutral path and clubface which would reduce spin.
    Posted:
  • Les StrokesLes Strokes Members  527WRX Points: 125Posts: 527 Golden Tee
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    I would experiment with ball position ahead of doing anything. I like a good positive angle of attack but I'm guessing from the numbers that the AOA might be a bi-product of the ball being a bit too far forwards. Clues are club path is a little more out to in than I'd want with an open clubface to compensate.



    Try moving the ball back a little and comparing data, looking to get a more neutral path and clubface which would reduce spin.




    do you have any other data and or links to studies re: AOA and spin? I play my driver down at 8* but still get 15 -16 launch, I was thinking that hitting up on it would reduce spin but not sure how to optimize the parameters of AOA, launch spin and carry
    Posted:
  • Pleasedwith3puttsPleasedwith3putts Members  1755WRX Points: 137Posts: 1,755 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 6, 2019 #30
    They seem to have taken the optimizer tool off of the trackman website. Looking at the chart, for your approx. ballspeed of 163 mph with a +5 AOA the optimum is (your numbers in brackets);



    Launch 13.7 (Flash 13.7)

    Backspin 2435 (Flash 2394)

    Dynamic loft 15.2 (Flash 17.5)

    Carry 279 (Flash 275)



    So given your actual ballspeed is around 160, your numbers are really good but that dynamic loft of 17.5 is robbing you of a little ballspeed and adding to sidespin / backspin. I can see from your numbers you have a two way miss going depending on how far open the clubface is relative to swing path but the face is always open and the swingpath always out to in at impact. I can't give you numbers I'm afraid but do experiment with ball position. My instinct is dialling the loft down on the head is not the way to go as that will make it even more difficult for you to square the club at impact rather than currently being open (which is what the minus adjustment on the adapter does). Maintaining the positive AOA but with a more neutral path and clubface will be far more consistent and can add a few more yards vs chopping across the ball.



    It's interesting that you used the same shaft as the impact position on Epic is a lot more toe up at impact than Rogue which suggests the base lie angle on Epic is more upright. Is the 43.5" the raw shaft length or playing length as for some people the ball creeps forwards to compensate for a club that is too long / upright. Make sure you don't use the more upright D setting on the Callaway and you might try gripping the club a little shorter when you move the ball back just to see how the numbers look.
    Posted:
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  • Les StrokesLes Strokes Members  527WRX Points: 125Posts: 527 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jan 6, 2019 #31
    wowza, in a recent test my Dynamic Loft is around 29* with 16* Launch with a 9.5* head set at - 1. I have a slight inside-out path, straight to slight draw ball flight. But yeah it is very high at top of trajectory. Constructive suggestions are welcome...
    Posted:
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