USGA and Lucy Li (MERGED)

Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,464 ✭✭
edited Jan 5, 2019 10:21pm in Juniors/College Golf Talk #1
https://www.golfchannel.com/news/usga-looking-lucy-lis-participation-apple-watch-ad-campaign?utm-tags=golf1305000



“Li, a 16-year-old amateur golfer who is ranked ninth in the world, was one of the subjects for a new Apple Watch ad campaign, which includes a video of Li hitting golf shots in a number of settings wearing the company's watch. Apple released the ad last week, and the USGA is now looking into the matter and gathering more information that could determine if Li violated any terms of her amateur status.”



I detest the USGA.
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Comments

  • Doc420Doc420 Members Posts: 2,325 ✭✭
    Usga is a joke, Although I don't think this will matter, I thought she would petition the LPGA when she turns 17 anyway.
  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,842 ✭✭
    I don’t understand. They are looking into whether an amateur golfer broke the rules regarding amateur status. This is the USGA’s charter, it’s what they do.



    Where’s the problem?
  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,464 ✭✭
    b.helts wrote:


    I don’t understand. They are looking into whether an amateur golfer broke the rules regarding amateur status. This is the USGA’s charter, it’s what they do.



    Where’s the problem?




    The charter is dumb. The USGA profits off of her, but she can’t make anything.
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  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,842 ✭✭
    You’re making the NCAA athlete should be paid argument. OK. I see where you’re coming from.



    How/when does the USGA profit from Lucy Li?
  • theboypinoytheboypinoy Members Posts: 2,075 ✭✭
    b.helts wrote:


    You're making the NCAA athlete should be paid argument. OK. I see where you're coming from.



    How/when does the USGA profit from Lucy Li?




    They used her image and story a lot when she qualified for the US Open.



    Leads to more views, which leads to more leverage for the USGA to negotiate their TV deals for example.
  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,842 ✭✭

    b.helts wrote:


    You're making the NCAA athlete should be paid argument. OK. I see where you're coming from.



    How/when does the USGA profit from Lucy Li?




    They used her image and story a lot when she qualified for the US Open.



    Leads to more views, which leads to more leverage for the USGA to negotiate their TV deals for example.




    ok but when you sign up for the tournament, you agree to certain media submissions. She, her parents or guardian, more accurately, literally signed up for it. They aren’t “using” her, they are making good on the agreement she willing entered.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,224 ✭✭
    edited Jan 5, 2019 11:26pm #8
    Wow. According to that link and the rule printed in it, I’d say her amatuer status is toast.



    I didnt realize you could lose your status even if you don’t recieve any compensation at all. She says she recieved no compensation or money but it doesnt actually matter according the rule. So intensely stupid. You are not allowed to use your status or reputation as a great golfer to promote or advertise for a product or company. Bizarro.



    I just hate the USGA more and more each day. So irritating.



    She should just turn Pro and flip the USGA the bird and cash a nice paycheck from Apple that they want to give her anyway.
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  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,464 ✭✭
    edited Jan 5, 2019 11:28pm #9
    b.helts wrote:


    b.helts wrote:


    You're making the NCAA athlete should be paid argument. OK. I see where you're coming from.



    How/when does the USGA profit from Lucy Li?




    They used her image and story a lot when she qualified for the US Open.



    Leads to more views, which leads to more leverage for the USGA to negotiate their TV deals for example.




    ok but when you sign up for the tournament, you agree to certain media submissions. She, her parents or guardian, more accurately, literally signed up for it. They aren’t “using” her, they are making good on the agreement she willing entered.




    Yes, she willingly entered. But it’s unfair at its heart. And their rules should be changed.



    I long for the day when the Power 5 conferences say goodbye to the NCAA and start their own organization. It will trickle down to how the USGA treats amateurs.
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  • theboypinoytheboypinoy Members Posts: 2,075 ✭✭
    edited Jan 5, 2019 11:29pm #10
    b.helts wrote:


    b.helts wrote:


    You're making the NCAA athlete should be paid argument. OK. I see where you're coming from.



    How/when does the USGA profit from Lucy Li?




    They used her image and story a lot when she qualified for the US Open.



    Leads to more views, which leads to more leverage for the USGA to negotiate their TV deals for example.




    ok but when you sign up for the tournament, you agree to certain media submissions. She, her parents or guardian, more accurately, literally signed up for it. They aren't "using" her, they are making good on the agreement she willing entered.




    Sure. The USGA profited, and her being in the tournament helped.



    I'm not saying she was used. It's just a verb I chose to say how they profited.
  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,842 ✭✭
    OK. I understand you guys and your arguments. I don’t really even disagree.



    But it’s not like the USGA is on a witch hunt here. The rules are the rules. Maybe they do need to be changed but enforcing the rules that are in place is not some random, despicable act.



    And the rules are not unclear. They aren’t hidden or subversive or subjective. Now Li turns pro. That’s not deplorable or disgusting or whatever other hyperbolic words you want to use.







  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,464 ✭✭
    b.helts wrote:


    OK. I understand you guys and your arguments. I don’t really even disagree.



    But it’s not like the USGA is on a witch hunt here. The rules are the rules. Maybe they do need to be changed but enforcing the rules that are in place is not some random, despicable act.



    And the rules are not unclear. They aren’t hidden or subversive or subjective. Now Li turns pro. That’s not deplorable or disgusting or whatever other hyperbolic words you want to use.




    Not changing your amateur status rules when they should have been for years is no excuse for saying, “We’re just enforcing our antiquated rules.”
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  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,842 ✭✭
    Holy Moses wrote:

    b.helts wrote:


    OK. I understand you guys and your arguments. I don’t really even disagree.



    But it’s not like the USGA is on a witch hunt here. The rules are the rules. Maybe they do need to be changed but enforcing the rules that are in place is not some random, despicable act.



    And the rules are not unclear. They aren’t hidden or subversive or subjective. Now Li turns pro. That’s not deplorable or disgusting or whatever other hyperbolic words you want to use.




    Not changing your amateur status rules when they should have been for years is no excuse for saying, “We’re just enforcing our antiquated rules.”




    Your opinion is noted.



    Do you think there should be monetary payouts for USGA champions, or everyone that makes match play, maybe everyone that qualifies?
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 875 ✭✭
    I find it more disappointing that a top amateur (very top amateur for that matter) doesn't know the rules on maintaining amateur status, antiquated or not.
  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,464 ✭✭
    wildcatden wrote:


    I find it more disappointing that a top amateur (very top amateur for that matter) doesn't know the rules on maintaining amateur status, antiquated or not.




    USGA rules that govern status and play are the most complicated in all of sports. That’s why there’s rules officials galore on the PGA Tour. I don’t know what the USGA is trying to protect, but it doesn’t need protecting.
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  • Holy MosesHoly Moses Members Posts: 10,464 ✭✭
    b.helts wrote:

    Holy Moses wrote:

    b.helts wrote:


    OK. I understand you guys and your arguments. I don’t really even disagree.



    But it’s not like the USGA is on a witch hunt here. The rules are the rules. Maybe they do need to be changed but enforcing the rules that are in place is not some random, despicable act.



    And the rules are not unclear. They aren’t hidden or subversive or subjective. Now Li turns pro. That’s not deplorable or disgusting or whatever other hyperbolic words you want to use.




    Not changing your amateur status rules when they should have been for years is no excuse for saying, “We’re just enforcing our antiquated rules.”




    Your opinion is noted.



    Do you think there should be monetary payouts for USGA champions, or everyone that makes match play, maybe everyone that qualifies?




    I wouldn’t be against it. But I’m more concerned with not letting amateurs take payments for services or being penalized for just being involved in an ad.



    The PGA Tour would have said goodbye to the USGA long ago if it weren’t for the US Open. I really do wish the biggest amateur and professional tournaments weren’t run by such a terrible organization.
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  • OffTheDoleOffTheDole Florida golfer Members Posts: 343 ✭✭
    The last bit in the article may be the loophole necessary to put this whole ridiculous situation to bed:



    "Also, golfers under the age of 18 can apply to the USGA for an exception provided it is a special individual circumstance and the contract is non-renewable and not longer than 12 months."
  • Rob McHughRob McHugh Rob ClubWRX Posts: 976 ClubWRX
    Talk to Harvie Ward.



    Rob
  • xxioxxio Members Posts: 5,673 ✭✭
    This all stems from the USGA's stance "if you want to make money off your golf abilities, turn pro".



    It would make it too complicated for them to monitor and investigate every amateur golfer for incidents that may violate.



    Better to have a blanket policy and have Ams err on the safe side.



    I would be skeptical as well if someone appeared in ads and tells me there is no compensation whatsoever, even in kind...free watches, phones, hotel stay/vacation during the hoot, etc.



    There is nothing to stop her from turning pro, maybe on the Korean/Japanese/Chinese tour since the LPGA has an age limit. Make her money there in endorsements.
  • ctmason_98ctmason_98 TOTALLY outta the bag... Members Posts: 1,827 ✭✭
    The concept of the amateur athlete in any sport is antiquated. It is absurd for today’s world.



    It should be eliminated entirely as a concept and we make all of this wasted energy go away.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,224 ✭✭
    ctmason_98 wrote:


    The concept of the amateur athlete in any sport is antiquated. It is absurd for today’s world.



    It should be eliminated entirely as a concept and we make all of this wasted energy go away.




    Ehh. I wouldn’t go that far. I like that there’s some tournaments specifically for amateurs.



    I don’t want a professional entering my local city or state Amatuer.
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  • ChronicSlicerChronicSlicer Members Posts: 949 ✭✭
    wildcatden wrote:


    I find it more disappointing that a top amateur (very top amateur for that matter) doesn't know the rules on maintaining amateur status, antiquated or not.




    One could easily say the same thing about PGA pro`s, who call in a rules official because they are not 100% sure of a situation. Shouldn`t they know the rules, it`s part of their job to know the rules, right?
  • cxxcxx Members Posts: 3,096 ✭✭
    Amateur athletics is worth preserving in all sports. If you want to make money at a sport, turn pro. Lots of people do. I for one don't want to relegate college athletics to a farm league.



    There are many sports where the lower levels of play are dominated by professionals, hockey and baseball come to mind. These teams are mostly of local interest to places without big league teams. I'd hate to see college athletics fall into irrelevancy where association with the college is tenuous at best and is more like a brand.
  • BrianMcGBrianMcG Members Posts: 2,273 ✭✭
    Now she is free to make a YouTube channel of her taking a bunch of lessons from different pros.
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  • TigerMomTigerMom Members Posts: 215 ✭✭
    Her parents (and maybe coach if he knew) are to blame



    They should know better



    At her level they should be getting better advice in preparation for the next level
  • Doc420Doc420 Members Posts: 2,325 ✭✭


    Wow. According to that link and the rule printed in it, I’d say her amatuer status is toast.



    I didnt realize you could lose your status even if you don’t recieve any compensation at all. She says she recieved no compensation or money but it doesnt actually matter according the rule. So intensely stupid. You are not allowed to use your status or reputation as a great golfer to promote or advertise for a product or company. Bizarro.



    I just hate the USGA more and more each day. So irritating.



    She should just turn Pro and flip the USGA the bird and cash a nice paycheck from Apple that they want to give her anyway.
    The way the rule is worded, all the people on Instagram, who try to influence should lose their status too. Many of those people still play tournaments.
  • b.heltsb.helts Members Posts: 2,842 ✭✭
    Doc420 wrote:



    Wow. According to that link and the rule printed in it, I’d say her amatuer status is toast.



    I didnt realize you could lose your status even if you don’t recieve any compensation at all. She says she recieved no compensation or money but it doesnt actually matter according the rule. So intensely stupid. You are not allowed to use your status or reputation as a great golfer to promote or advertise for a product or company. Bizarro.



    I just hate the USGA more and more each day. So irritating.



    She should just turn Pro and flip the USGA the bird and cash a nice paycheck from Apple that they want to give her anyway.
    The way the rule is worded, all the people on Instagram, who try to influence should lose their status too. Many of those people still play tournaments.




    Hey dude. I’m not arguing, you are probably right, but can you give me an example of an amateur golfer that is “influencing” on Instagram in such a way that it violates amateur status?



    Again, not saying you aren’t right, I’m just having trouble imagining what that looks like and what/how they are “influencing”



    :cheers:
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Posts: 17,714 ClubWRX
    Wow, so many facts not known and at the same time being assumed to go on a rant about this.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    edited Jan 6, 2019 5:17pm #29
    She knew the rules a lot kids are push the envelope and never get caught. If you are good enough to turn pro and it appears Lucy Li is that type of player then this was a calculated risk for her.



    Honestly what is the downside of turning pro other then not being allowed to play in college?



    The rules are fine The way they are I believe the reason they are there is to make sure players who do not rely on golf for income can play certain competitions.



    I also think kids from other countries who get stipends and living expense to play should not be called armatures either but that is another topic.
  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,141 ✭✭
    Going to be interesting to see if they can prove she profited/benefited from this. When a popular amateur one needs to be aware of the rules when doing things with companies
  • ctmason_98ctmason_98 TOTALLY outta the bag... Members Posts: 1,827 ✭✭
    cxx wrote:


    Amateur athletics is worth preserving in all sports. If you want to make money at a sport, turn pro. Lots of people do. I for one don't want to relegate college athletics to a farm league.



    There are many sports where the lower levels of play are dominated by professionals, hockey and baseball come to mind. These teams are mostly of local interest to places without big league teams. I'd hate to see college athletics fall into irrelevancy where association with the college is tenuous at best and is more like a brand.




    1) We compensate you for representing this University by paying your significant tuition, food, housing, some clothing, athletic equipment and travel costs for competitions as well as a small stipend.



    2) We compensate you as a top golfer by paying your travel costs to come film a commercial and represent our product.



    Individual number one is an amateur who is preserving the integrity of athletics and ensuring only a true amateur who is not doing this for compensation.



    Individual number two is a professional who has no business being playing agai st other amateurs.



    Does anyone else see the absurdity in this?
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