A scratch golfer's average round

statgradstatgrad Members Posts: 37 ✭✭
What is a scratch golfer’s average round?



Let’s assume the standard deviation of the index over the last 20 rounds is 3. So this means 2/3 of the rounds are within 3 points of the mean index. Using some inverse normal simulation to match the 10 best scores averaging to 0, the scratch golfer, the average round is 2.4 “points” above the overall handicap. So let’s put the scratch golf on a course like Harbour Town, rating 75.6 and slope 148. Expected score is 2.4*(148/113) + 75.6 = 78.7.



For the record, at the RBC Heritage, the Tour average for the first two rounds was 70.9. I would imagine the greens were a little faster and the rough a little thicker than what the members have week to week. The PGA tour golfers are about 8 to 9 strokes better than scratch, maybe more.



For the scratch golfers out there, or those near it, does this match with your experience? Other thoughts?



Have at it.
Driver: Louisville Golf Smart ProBE, 10.5*, Graffalloy Pro Launch Red, S
3W, 5W: Louisville Golf Niblick, Graffalloy Pro Launch Red, S
4-9: Mizuno MP 18, PX 6.0
Wedges: Vokey SM6, 46*, 54*, 60*
Odyssey Pro Type 4 HT Blade
«13

Comments

  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,489 ✭✭
    Yes I would say a pro is probably a +7, +8 handicap around. That makes sense.



    My average round was 74-75 this year on my course, which has 18's that range in that same number in terms of rating
    Cobra F8+ 9.5 w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex 20h w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56 w/S300
    Callaway MD 2.0 60 PM grind w/s300
    Odyssey O-works Red Tank #7
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    statgrad wrote:
    What is a scratch golfer’s average round?



    Let’s assume the standard deviation of the index over the last 20 rounds is 3. So this means 2/3 of the rounds are within 3 points of the mean index. Using some inverse normal simulation to match the 10 best scores averaging to 0, the scratch golfer, the average round is 2.4 “points” above the overall handicap. So let’s put the scratch golf on a course like Harbour Town, rating 75.6 and slope 148. Expected score is 2.4*(148/113) + 75.6 = 78.7.



    For the record, at the RBC Heritage, the Tour average for the first two rounds was 70.9. I would imagine the greens were a little faster and the rough a little thicker than what the members have week to week. The PGA tour golfers are about 8 to 9 strokes better than scratch, maybe more.



    For the scratch golfers out there, or those near it, does this match with your experience? Other thoughts?



    Have at it.




    Yes, this is about right for the best players in the world.



    The number is larger the more difficult the golf course. I would say 6 to 10 shots, on average, depending on the course, with extremely long courses with significant green firmness majorly favoring top pros.



    On an easy muni with length of 6400, par 72, rating 70.5 slope of 121, maybe the pro averages 65.8 and the (consistent) scratch golfer 72.5.



    But on an extremely difficult set up, like a US open, the difference is closer to 10.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • Drewmiller07Drewmiller07 North carolinaMembers Posts: 170 ✭✭
    I play from (-1) to +1 depending on how I’m playing.



    Now if I play from the tips where I make my money, I shoot about 75 plus or minus 2 strokes. Ours are rated at 75.5 and 144 at 7250. I’m a longer hitter and it is easier for me to play normal instead of having to back off shots.



    When I play from the whites, it’s rated I think about 70.8 and 128 (6400ish), I rarely score 70 plus or minus 2 strokes. I usually shoot around 72 from the whites. It’s harder for me to dial it back and hit irons off the tee.



    Some guys I know shoot great from the whites, and are scratch from the whites. Back them up to the tips, and they have no chance in **** to shoot 76 from the black.



    Point being there are different terms to scratch. The definition stays the same, but the golfer changes.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 6, 2019 6:16pm #5
    I play from (-1) to +1 depending on how I’m playing.



    Now if I play from the tips where I make my money, I shoot about 75 plus or minus 2 strokes. Ours are rated at 75.5 and 144 at 7250. I’m a longer hitter and it is easier for me to play normal instead of having to back off shots.



    When I play from the whites, it’s rated I think about 70.8 and 128 (6400ish), I rarely score 70 plus or minus 2 strokes. I usually shoot around 72 from the whites. It’s harder for me to dial it back and hit irons off the tee.



    Some guys I know shoot great from the whites, and are scratch from the whites. Back them up to the tips, and they have no chance in **** to shoot 76 from the black.



    Point being there are different terms to scratch. The definition stays the same, but the golfer changes.




    One of my courses is 7,190, 75.9, 148. My club has 20 - 30 amateur "scratch-ish" golfers (+2 to 2 month in, month out).



    They range in age from mid 20s to mid 60s. They carry driver 220 (me) to 310 and everywhere in between.



    Every single one of those guys can and have shot 72 to 82 from the back tees.



    I'm not sure who the scratch golfers are who can't step back to the back tees if they are short hitters and still shoot around the course rating. The course rating goes up because the course gets more difficult. It is factored in.



    As a short hitter, my superior wedge play and touch around the greens and my ability to generally make nothing more than a bogey means that I can shoot 76 from the black tees at our course quite often. My best is 69 from the back tees. I am currently +0.4, and over the whole year, my average index is very close to exactly scratch.



    I will take your word that they exist, but I just never see them. Sure, golfers have different strengths and weaknesses, and certain set-ups favor some golfers over others. But not so much that a true scratch golfer, with an accurately recorded index, can't shoot 76 on a course rated 75.5 once every three to five rounds.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • Drewmiller07Drewmiller07 North carolinaMembers Posts: 170 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    I play from (-1) to +1 depending on how I’m playing.



    Now if I play from the tips where I make my money, I shoot about 75 plus or minus 2 strokes. Ours are rated at 75.5 and 144 at 7250. I’m a longer hitter and it is easier for me to play normal instead of having to back off shots.



    When I play from the whites, it’s rated I think about 70.8 and 128 (6400ish), I rarely score 70 plus or minus 2 strokes. I usually shoot around 72 from the whites. It’s harder for me to dial it back and hit irons off the tee.



    Some guys I know shoot great from the whites, and are scratch from the whites. Back them up to the tips, and they have no chance in **** to shoot 76 from the black.



    Point being there are different terms to scratch. The definition stays the same, but the golfer changes.




    One of my courses is 7,190, 75.9, 148. My club has 20 - 30 amateur "scratch-ish" golfers (+2 to 2 month in, month out).



    They range in age from mid 20s to mid 60s. They carry driver 220 (me) to 310 and everywhere in between.



    Every single one of those guys can and have shot 72 to 82 from the back tees.



    I'm not sure who the scratch golfers are who can't step back to the back tees if they are short hitters and still shoot around the course rating. The course rating goes up because the course gets more difficult. It is factored in.



    As a short hitter, my superior wedge play and touch around the greens and my ability to generally make nothing more than a bogey means that I can shoot 76 from the black tees at our course quite often. My best is 69 from the back tees. I am currently +0.4, and over the whole year, my average index is very close to exactly scratch.



    I will take your word that they exist, but I just never see them. Sure, golfers have different strengths and weaknesses, and certain set-ups favor some golfers over others. But not so much that a true scratch golfer, with an accurately recorded index, can't shoot 76 on a course rated 75.5 once every three to five rounds.






    Most of the guys I’m talking about are shorter hitters. They just don’t have the distance to move back.



    They might be great wedge players, but if they hit 240 yards on a 470, they can’t get there in two. A lot of the up and downs at our course require a flop shot.



    On the same side, if I go play courses in Florida, very rarely do I shoot 76 on a 75 rated course. I generally go a good bit lower. I find Florida golf to be a ton easier. I’m still the same golfer, but I play the courses with more ease.
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,489 ✭✭
    edited Jan 6, 2019 6:47pm #7
    I tend to agree with Obee. My course was/is known for being a course of a bunch of old dudes (LOL) where at 37 i'm one of the young guys. We have a LOT of guys who are 55+ and drive it 220-230 but keep indexes of 0-2. Every year someone mentions that when we play from the tips in the club championship these guys will have a harder time scoring, and every year it's not really the case. Yes they hit longer clubs in but there's a reason these guys are scratch. If a guy driving it 300yds was as good as them in every other area he wouldn't be a scratch, he'd be a +3 or whatever.



    There are rare, extreme cases. For example one year we played an interclub at a 7000 yard course that has small greens that are well bunkered. So you had to hit not only long approaches in but they had to be all carry....OK in that case i can understand. But these are rare cases. Many 7000 yard courses still have numerous holes that are "gettable" and make their yardage on a couple of mammoth holes, or long par 3's that are tough for everyone
    Cobra F8+ 9.5 w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex 20h w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56 w/S300
    Callaway MD 2.0 60 PM grind w/s300
    Odyssey O-works Red Tank #7
  • Drewmiller07Drewmiller07 North carolinaMembers Posts: 170 ✭✭
    MtlJeff wrote:


    I tend to agree with Obee. My course was/is known for being a course of a bunch of old dudes (LOL) where at 37 i'm one of the young guys. We have a LOT of guys who are 55+ and drive it 220-230 but keep indexes of 0-2. Every year someone mentions that when we play from the tips in the club championship these guys will have a harder time scoring, and every year it's not really the case. Yes they hit longer clubs in but there's a reason these guys are scratch. If a guy driving it 300yds was as good as them in every other area he wouldn't be a scratch, he'd be a +3 or whatever.



    There are rare, extreme cases. For example one year we played an interclub at a 7000 yard course that has small greens that are well bunkered. So you had to hit not only long approaches in but they had to be all carry....OK in that case i can understand. But these are rare cases. Many 7000 yard courses still have numerous holes that are "gettable" and make their yardage on a couple of mammoth holes, or long par 3's that are tough for everyone






    That’s along the lines of what I meant by my last post. Our course is the course you mentioned.
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,489 ✭✭
    edited Jan 6, 2019 7:00pm #9

    MtlJeff wrote:


    I tend to agree with Obee. My course was/is known for being a course of a bunch of old dudes (LOL) where at 37 i'm one of the young guys. We have a LOT of guys who are 55+ and drive it 220-230 but keep indexes of 0-2. Every year someone mentions that when we play from the tips in the club championship these guys will have a harder time scoring, and every year it's not really the case. Yes they hit longer clubs in but there's a reason these guys are scratch. If a guy driving it 300yds was as good as them in every other area he wouldn't be a scratch, he'd be a +3 or whatever.



    There are rare, extreme cases. For example one year we played an interclub at a 7000 yard course that has small greens that are well bunkered. So you had to hit not only long approaches in but they had to be all carry....OK in that case i can understand. But these are rare cases. Many 7000 yard courses still have numerous holes that are "gettable" and make their yardage on a couple of mammoth holes, or long par 3's that are tough for everyone






    That's along the lines of what I meant by my last post. Our course is the course you mentioned.




    Yeah in those rare cases i understand, and do think it makes a difference as you say.



    It can go the other way too. I have played short courses where long and accurate tee balls are virtually meaningless as every hole takes driver out of play, and that can put a longer hitter relative to his handicap group at a disadvantage.



    For example, as mentioned my club is a lot of older guys with better short games than me. If you put us all on a course like say, Stowe Mountain in Vermont (6300yds, 75 rating with very tight fairways and short par 4's) i would probably have a tougher time hanging with them there then on my home course



    But i'll state overall, i think these courses are more the exception than the rule
    Cobra F8+ 9.5 w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex 20h w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56 w/S300
    Callaway MD 2.0 60 PM grind w/s300
    Odyssey O-works Red Tank #7
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    MtlJeff wrote:


    I tend to agree with Obee. My course was/is known for being a course of a bunch of old dudes (LOL) where at 37 i'm one of the young guys. We have a LOT of guys who are 55+ and drive it 220-230 but keep indexes of 0-2. Every year someone mentions that when we play from the tips in the club championship these guys will have a harder time scoring, and every year it's not really the case. Yes they hit longer clubs in but there's a reason these guys are scratch. If a guy driving it 300yds was as good as them in every other area he wouldn't be a scratch, he'd be a +3 or whatever.



    There are rare, extreme cases. For example one year we played an interclub at a 7000 yard course that has small greens that are well bunkered. So you had to hit not only long approaches in but they had to be all carry....OK in that case i can understand. But these are rare cases. Many 7000 yard courses still have numerous holes that are "gettable" and make their yardage on a couple of mammoth holes, or long par 3's that are tough for everyone






    That’s along the lines of what I meant by my last post. Our course is the course you mentioned.




    How long is it?
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • Drewmiller07Drewmiller07 North carolinaMembers Posts: 170 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    MtlJeff wrote:


    I tend to agree with Obee. My course was/is known for being a course of a bunch of old dudes (LOL) where at 37 i'm one of the young guys. We have a LOT of guys who are 55+ and drive it 220-230 but keep indexes of 0-2. Every year someone mentions that when we play from the tips in the club championship these guys will have a harder time scoring, and every year it's not really the case. Yes they hit longer clubs in but there's a reason these guys are scratch. If a guy driving it 300yds was as good as them in every other area he wouldn't be a scratch, he'd be a +3 or whatever.



    There are rare, extreme cases. For example one year we played an interclub at a 7000 yard course that has small greens that are well bunkered. So you had to hit not only long approaches in but they had to be all carry....OK in that case i can understand. But these are rare cases. Many 7000 yard courses still have numerous holes that are "gettable" and make their yardage on a couple of mammoth holes, or long par 3's that are tough for everyone






    That’s along the lines of what I meant by my last post. Our course is the course you mentioned.




    How long is it?




    7250 with the par 3’s at 220-260. Two of those carry water to front edge. 6 holes total carry water to the green on shot 2.



  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    Obee wrote:

    MtlJeff wrote:


    I tend to agree with Obee. My course was/is known for being a course of a bunch of old dudes (LOL) where at 37 i'm one of the young guys. We have a LOT of guys who are 55+ and drive it 220-230 but keep indexes of 0-2. Every year someone mentions that when we play from the tips in the club championship these guys will have a harder time scoring, and every year it's not really the case. Yes they hit longer clubs in but there's a reason these guys are scratch. If a guy driving it 300yds was as good as them in every other area he wouldn't be a scratch, he'd be a +3 or whatever.



    There are rare, extreme cases. For example one year we played an interclub at a 7000 yard course that has small greens that are well bunkered. So you had to hit not only long approaches in but they had to be all carry....OK in that case i can understand. But these are rare cases. Many 7000 yard courses still have numerous holes that are "gettable" and make their yardage on a couple of mammoth holes, or long par 3's that are tough for everyone






    That’s along the lines of what I meant by my last post. Our course is the course you mentioned.




    How long is it?




    7250 with the par 3’s at 220-260. Two of those carry water to front edge. 6 holes total carry water to the green on shot 2.




    I'm guessing the long par 3's have elevated tees?
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,685 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 7, 2019 10:44am #13
    The thing is, if a person is a legitimate scratch, he hits it well. So instead of a hybrid from that 220 par three he’s hitting 3 wood (or driver) from the 260. No, he’s probably not going to hit it quite as close. But he’s probably not hitting the hybrid real tight either. Both clubs, he’s likely going to hit them solidly, somewhere up around the green, and then have a legit chance to get up and down. There’s a reason he’s scratch hitting driver 260.



    Now, if it’s a 260 yard par three that’s all carry over water, then it’s a just a bad hole.
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    The thing is, if a person is a legitimate scratch, he hits it well. So instead of a hybrid from that 220 par three he’s hitting 3 wood (or driver) from the 260. No, he’s probably not going to hit it quite as close. But he’s probably not hitting the hybrid real tight either. Both clubs, he’s likely going to hit them solidly, somewhere up around the green, and then have a legit chance to get up and down. There’s a reason he’s scratch hitting driver 260.



    Now, if it’s a 260 yard par three that’s all carry over water, then it’s a just a bad hole.




    I daresay there are less than a handful of holes like that in the entire country, and I will bet you every one has an elevated tee.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,685 ClubWRX
    Obee wrote:

    The thing is, if a person is a legitimate scratch, he hits it well. So instead of a hybrid from that 220 par three he’s hitting 3 wood (or driver) from the 260. No, he’s probably not going to hit it quite as close. But he’s probably not hitting the hybrid real tight either. Both clubs, he’s likely going to hit them solidly, somewhere up around the green, and then have a legit chance to get up and down. There’s a reason he’s scratch hitting driver 260.



    Now, if it’s a 260 yard par three that’s all carry over water, then it’s a just a bad hole.




    I daresay there are less than a handful of holes like that in the entire country, and I will bet you every one has an elevated tee.




    And probably used once a year. Like when the PGA Tour is in town?!
    Titleist 910 8.5
    Titleist 910 15*
    Titleist 910H 17*
    2-6 Mizuno MP-60, 7-PW MP-67
    SC GoLo
    Vokey SM5 52,58,62
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 8, 2019 3:47pm #16


    I play from (-1) to +1 depending on how I'm playing.



    Now if I play from the tips where I make my money, I shoot about 75 plus or minus 2 strokes. Ours are rated at 75.5 and 144 at 7250. I'm a longer hitter and it is easier for me to play normal instead of having to back off shots.



    When I play from the whites, it's rated I think about 70.8 and 128 (6400ish), I rarely score 70 plus or minus 2 strokes. I usually shoot around 72 from the whites. It's harder for me to dial it back and hit irons off the tee.



    Some guys I know shoot great from the whites, and are scratch from the whites. Back them up to the tips, and they have no chance in **** to shoot 76 from the black.



    Point being there are different terms to scratch. The definition stays the same, but the golfer changes.




    I see you have your handicap listed as "4," but you shoot "75, plus or minus 2 strokes" on a course rated 75.5....



    Hmmmmmm...... ;-)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,489 ✭✭

    Obee wrote:

    The thing is, if a person is a legitimate scratch, he hits it well. So instead of a hybrid from that 220 par three he’s hitting 3 wood (or driver) from the 260. No, he’s probably not going to hit it quite as close. But he’s probably not hitting the hybrid real tight either. Both clubs, he’s likely going to hit them solidly, somewhere up around the green, and then have a legit chance to get up and down. There’s a reason he’s scratch hitting driver 260.



    Now, if it’s a 260 yard par three that’s all carry over water, then it’s a just a bad hole.




    I daresay there are less than a handful of holes like that in the entire country, and I will bet you every one has an elevated tee.




    And probably used once a year. Like when the PGA Tour is in town?!




    I do think theres some merit to course makeup, but overall I'm on your side. But I've already mentioned a few courses around here. There's another that comes to mind that is 7100yds, but the par 3's are all under 200 and the par 5's are <525. So there are a lot of 450yd par 4's. There's like 6-7 of them and I don't think a single one under 400.



    That can be tough for a scratch who hits 220 or so off the tee.



    But again these are extreme examples, though they exist
    Cobra F8+ 9.5 w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w/Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex 20h w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56 w/S300
    Callaway MD 2.0 60 PM grind w/s300
    Odyssey O-works Red Tank #7
  • Drewmiller07Drewmiller07 North carolinaMembers Posts: 170 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:



    I play from (-1) to +1 depending on how I'm playing.



    Now if I play from the tips where I make my money, I shoot about 75 plus or minus 2 strokes. Ours are rated at 75.5 and 144 at 7250. I'm a longer hitter and it is easier for me to play normal instead of having to back off shots.



    When I play from the whites, it's rated I think about 70.8 and 128 (6400ish), I rarely score 70 plus or minus 2 strokes. I usually shoot around 72 from the whites. It's harder for me to dial it back and hit irons off the tee.



    Some guys I know shoot great from the whites, and are scratch from the whites. Back them up to the tips, and they have no chance in **** to shoot 76 from the black.



    Point being there are different terms to scratch. The definition stays the same, but the golfer changes.




    I see you have your handicap listed as "4," but you shot "75, plus or minus 2 strokes" on a course rated 75.5....



    Hmmmmmm...... ;-)






    My nickname is “the defensive fighting position”. I’m made of sandbags.
  • farmerfarmer Members Posts: 7,904 ✭✭
    7520, 220-260 par 3's, two with water to the front, 6 holes with water to the front of the green. For member play, that's a bad design. Even from my senior tees, that's a bad design.
  • 3woodvt3woodvt 5 test drives for clubface contact. #footpowder Members Posts: 1,628 ✭✭
    edited Jan 7, 2019 3:17pm #20
    MtlJeff wrote:


    Yes I would say a pro is probably a +7, +8 handicap around. That makes sense.



    My average round was 74-75 this year on my course, which has 18's that range in that same number in terms of rating
    △△ this is a pretty good gauge .I always feel my handicap should be higher but those low rounds, especially in tournaments, seem to linger around forever .



    I would think professionals at 10+ better personally but nerves has to be taking into account if I had 25K cheering booing on the 17th at the Waste management I doubt I could even draw it back and would be hoping just to make solid contact. Now out with friends I feel like I'd hit that green 9 of 10 times . If I could stay within 40 of a winning pro on a tour event id consider it a success but I'd be packing my bags after Friday . If pro leading the event was 10 under I'd walk off proud at +10 and feel satisfied on Friday afternoon but it would never happen as they wouldn't let me use a cart w my cooler.
    Cobra F9 8.0 Atmos TS Black7x
    Cobra F8+ 13.5 Aldila7x
    Adams A12 19* VTS Proforce 100hs
    Srixon Z945 4-PW KBS Tour 120s
    Cleveland 2.0 51**,55**,59*
    Ping Zing TR
    Srixon Z
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX

    Obee wrote:



    I play from (-1) to +1 depending on how I'm playing.



    Now if I play from the tips where I make my money, I shoot about 75 plus or minus 2 strokes. Ours are rated at 75.5 and 144 at 7250. I'm a longer hitter and it is easier for me to play normal instead of having to back off shots.



    When I play from the whites, it's rated I think about 70.8 and 128 (6400ish), I rarely score 70 plus or minus 2 strokes. I usually shoot around 72 from the whites. It's harder for me to dial it back and hit irons off the tee.



    Some guys I know shoot great from the whites, and are scratch from the whites. Back them up to the tips, and they have no chance in **** to shoot 76 from the black.



    Point being there are different terms to scratch. The definition stays the same, but the golfer changes.




    I see you have your handicap listed as "4," but you shot "75, plus or minus 2 strokes" on a course rated 75.5....



    Hmmmmmm...... ;-)






    My nickname is “the defensive fighting position”. I’m made of sandbags.




    What is your low competitive round ever? Do you play tournament golf much?
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • dparkdpark Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭
    When I lived in San Jose many moons ago, I used to play a lot at Poppy Hills, and this was when it was in the rotation for the AT&T. What was fun to do and many people didn't know, was you could schedule a tee time on Poppy on Sunday during the AT&T after the Saturday cut. All the times we did this, the super didn't move the pins from Saturday. We teed off from the tournament tees to see how we would do.



    My index during these couple of years moved between +1.7 and 2.0. I never broke 80 from the tips (One of my old scorecards had the black tees listed as 6667 yards, course rating 73.4 and slope 142. The tournament tees were much further back, probably at least 7000 yards, par 71). The greens were so firm and the pins were so tucked that I rarely had a birdie putt from less than 20'. The rough was thick enough that getting up and down when short-sided was impossible for me.



    Poppy was the easiest of the 3 courses for the pros and they usually ate it up.
    Old stuff:
    1962 Tommy Armour AT2W Driver
    1953 Macgregor M65W EOM 3 wood
    1978 H&B PowerBilt Citation 4 wood
    1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E
    1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
    1964 Acushnet O-SET M6S Bullseye Putter

    New stuff
    Cobra ZL 10.5 driver
    Adams 5050 16 fairway wood
    Adams A2P 20* hybrid
    Titleist 716 MB irons 4-PW
    Callaway Mack Daddy wedges 52, 56, 60
    Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Napa
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    dpark wrote:
    When I lived in San Jose many moons ago, I used to play a lot at Poppy Hills, and this was when it was in the rotation for the AT&T. What was fun to do and many people didn't know, was you could schedule a tee time on Poppy on Sunday during the AT&T after the Saturday cut. All the times we did this, the super didn't move the pins from Saturday. We teed off from the tournament tees to see how we would do.



    My index during these couple of years moved between +1.7 and 2.0. I never broke 80 from the tips (One of my old scorecards had the black tees listed as 6667 yards, course rating 73.4 and slope 142. The tournament tees were much further back, probably at least 7000 yards, par 71). The greens were so firm and the pins were so tucked that I rarely had a birdie putt from less than 20'. The rough was thick enough that getting up and down when short-sided was impossible for me.



    Poppy was the easiest of the 3 courses for the pros and they usually ate it up.




    Pretty sure Pebble was the easiest of the three virtually every year, to par.



    Average score on Spyglass and Poppy were usually both OVER par for the pros most years during the AT&T, if memory serves.



    Surprised you have not broken 80 at Poppy from the tips, which was about 6900 from the tips, if I remember correctly.
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • dparkdpark Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:
    dpark wrote:
    When I lived in San Jose many moons ago, I used to play a lot at Poppy Hills, and this was when it was in the rotation for the AT&T. What was fun to do and many people didn't know, was you could schedule a tee time on Poppy on Sunday during the AT&T after the Saturday cut. All the times we did this, the super didn't move the pins from Saturday. We teed off from the tournament tees to see how we would do.



    My index during these couple of years moved between +1.7 and 2.0. I never broke 80 from the tips (One of my old scorecards had the black tees listed as 6667 yards, course rating 73.4 and slope 142. The tournament tees were much further back, probably at least 7000 yards, par 71). The greens were so firm and the pins were so tucked that I rarely had a birdie putt from less than 20'. The rough was thick enough that getting up and down when short-sided was impossible for me.



    Poppy was the easiest of the 3 courses for the pros and they usually ate it up.




    Pretty sure Pebble was the easiest of the three virtually every year, to par.



    Average score on Spyglass and Poppy were usually both OVER par for the pros most years during the AT&T, if memory serves.



    Surprised you have not broken 80 at Poppy from the tips, which was about 6900 from the tips, if I remember correctly.




    I had no prob breaking 80 from the tips during a normal round at Poppy. But not when playing it with a PGA tour setup. Very different animal.

    Old stuff:
    1962 Tommy Armour AT2W Driver
    1953 Macgregor M65W EOM 3 wood
    1978 H&B PowerBilt Citation 4 wood
    1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E
    1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
    1964 Acushnet O-SET M6S Bullseye Putter

    New stuff
    Cobra ZL 10.5 driver
    Adams 5050 16 fairway wood
    Adams A2P 20* hybrid
    Titleist 716 MB irons 4-PW
    Callaway Mack Daddy wedges 52, 56, 60
    Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Napa
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    dpark wrote:

    Obee wrote:
    dpark wrote:
    When I lived in San Jose many moons ago, I used to play a lot at Poppy Hills, and this was when it was in the rotation for the AT&T. What was fun to do and many people didn't know, was you could schedule a tee time on Poppy on Sunday during the AT&T after the Saturday cut. All the times we did this, the super didn't move the pins from Saturday. We teed off from the tournament tees to see how we would do.



    My index during these couple of years moved between +1.7 and 2.0. I never broke 80 from the tips (One of my old scorecards had the black tees listed as 6667 yards, course rating 73.4 and slope 142. The tournament tees were much further back, probably at least 7000 yards, par 71). The greens were so firm and the pins were so tucked that I rarely had a birdie putt from less than 20'. The rough was thick enough that getting up and down when short-sided was impossible for me.



    Poppy was the easiest of the 3 courses for the pros and they usually ate it up.




    Pretty sure Pebble was the easiest of the three virtually every year, to par.



    Average score on Spyglass and Poppy were usually both OVER par for the pros most years during the AT&T, if memory serves.



    Surprised you have not broken 80 at Poppy from the tips, which was about 6900 from the tips, if I remember correctly.




    I had no prob breaking 80 from the tips during a normal round at Poppy. But not when playing it with a PGA tour setup. Very different animal.




    So I'm not sure where you stand on this. What number would you put on it? A "real" scratch golfer's (someone who averages scratch, or very close, over a whole year) "range" on a PGA Tour course set-up versus, say, the average PGA Tour pro's "range" on the same course.



    Before you answer, remember that Tony Romo, Ben Roethlisberger, Justin Timberlake, et al. have played flippin' U.S. Open Set-ups and we have their scores and their handicaps.... :-)
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • 3woodvt3woodvt 5 test drives for clubface contact. #footpowder Members Posts: 1,628 ✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 10:41am #26
    12 strokes. Avg pro probably around 72.5 scoring avg. Amateur 80-85. Match play + 6-7 holes.
    Cobra F9 8.0 Atmos TS Black7x
    Cobra F8+ 13.5 Aldila7x
    Adams A12 19* VTS Proforce 100hs
    Srixon Z945 4-PW KBS Tour 120s
    Cleveland 2.0 51**,55**,59*
    Ping Zing TR
    Srixon Z
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,731 ClubWRX
    3woodvt wrote:


    12 strokes. Avg pro probably around 72.5 scoring avg. Amateur 80-85. Match play + 6-7 holes.




    I think that's pretty close for the tougher courses.



    I would quibble and says it's more like 8 to 12 with 12 being the high side on the very toughest of set-ups. (see Romo and Roethlisberger in the U.S. Open Challenge). 8 per round at courses like Kapalua, Torrey North, TPC Deere Run, TPC Summerlin, and higher for most Majors, Torrey South, TPC Sawgrass, etc. :-)
    PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
    Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
    Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
    Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
    Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
    Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
    Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
    Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
    Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
    Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
    Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)
  • bogeyprobogeypro The Original Bogeypro ALClubWRX Posts: 3,257 ClubWRX
    Ah yes.... the ole magical lore of the tour setup. The biggest problem with putting a non tour player in a tour setup for that one time shot is getting used to the setup. Give the player time and he’ll adjust. It’d be like putting a bus driver in the Indy 500.



    It’s a ridiculous argument.
    Titleist TS3 8.5 
    Titleist TS2 15* 
    Mizuno JPX 850 2 hybrid
    Mizuno MP 18 SC 3-pw
    Vokey 54/60 sm7 wedges
    Scotty Cameron Futura 5.5m
  • jvincentjvincent Members Posts: 617 ✭✭
    I played Poppy this fall a couple of days before the Senior Tour event and they already had the course firm and fast.



    I wasn't expecting it and it took a few holes for it to sink it that I had to hit my approaches differently.

    Cobra F9 9* : Tour AD TP 7-S
    Cobra LTD set at 16* : Tour AD TP 8-S
    Cobra 3U set at 19.5* : Nippon Modus3 130-S
    Wishon 565MC 4-PW : Nippon Modus3 130-S
    Cleveland RTX3 50, 54, 58 : Nippon Modus3 130-S
    Piretti Potenza 370g : Breakthrough Technology Stability Shaft - 34"

  • farmerfarmer Members Posts: 7,904 ✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 12:49pm #30
    Tony was a 2 and shot 84 at Torrey. Justin Timberlake shot 98, at a 6. Given the difficulty of the course, 84 is probably about a 2 hdcp score. I don't know the average course rating for a tour tournament ready course, but if it's in the 75-76 area I would not be surprised. So, a scratch golfer might be able to maintain his index, but it would be a hard fought round every time.
  • dparkdpark Members Posts: 2,534 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    dpark wrote:

    Obee wrote:
    dpark wrote:
    When I lived in San Jose many moons ago, I used to play a lot at Poppy Hills, and this was when it was in the rotation for the AT&T. What was fun to do and many people didn't know, was you could schedule a tee time on Poppy on Sunday during the AT&T after the Saturday cut. All the times we did this, the super didn't move the pins from Saturday. We teed off from the tournament tees to see how we would do.



    My index during these couple of years moved between +1.7 and 2.0. I never broke 80 from the tips (One of my old scorecards had the black tees listed as 6667 yards, course rating 73.4 and slope 142. The tournament tees were much further back, probably at least 7000 yards, par 71). The greens were so firm and the pins were so tucked that I rarely had a birdie putt from less than 20'. The rough was thick enough that getting up and down when short-sided was impossible for me.



    Poppy was the easiest of the 3 courses for the pros and they usually ate it up.




    Pretty sure Pebble was the easiest of the three virtually every year, to par.



    Average score on Spyglass and Poppy were usually both OVER par for the pros most years during the AT&T, if memory serves.



    Surprised you have not broken 80 at Poppy from the tips, which was about 6900 from the tips, if I remember correctly.




    I had no prob breaking 80 from the tips during a normal round at Poppy. But not when playing it with a PGA tour setup. Very different animal.




    So I'm not sure where you stand on this. What number would you put on it? A "real" scratch golfer's (someone who averages scratch, or very close, over a whole year) "range" on a PGA Tour course set-up versus, say, the average PGA Tour pro's "range" on the same course.



    Before you answer, remember that Tony Romo, Ben Roethlisberger, Justin Timberlake, et al. have played flippin' U.S. Open Set-ups and we have their scores and their handicaps.... :-)

    bogeypro wrote:


    Ah yes.... the ole magical lore of the tour setup. The biggest problem with putting a non tour player in a tour setup for that one time shot is getting used to the setup. Give the player time and he'll adjust. It'd be like putting a bus driver in the Indy 500.



    It's a ridiculous argument.




    I think the delta is at least 5 strokes IMO, and probably up to 10, but this is based on someone who plays some level of tournament golf. I have played in a bunch of USGA and state-level mid-am and am qualifiers and never shot anywhere near my index, both on courses I have played and never seen before. It isn't like I expected to get out of qualifying, but I wanted to see what I would do, under tournament pressure, and on a course set up very hard. I never got the dreaded "letter" (Please do apply again, you suck), so I roughly stayed within 10 strokes of the course rating +/- (there were other aspects to getting a "letter" but that was the main one IIRC).



    As for the 2nd point, personally I felt that I had played in enough top-am events to be comfortable with a "tour setup" (we can quibble if a qualifier setup for the USGA is easier than a Pro-Am setup, if playing from the back tees, not the am tees). It isn't a matter of "adjusting" to the setup, it's having the ability to play well on the setup. As well as I like to believe I strike the ball, I just don't generate "tour-level" spin on my approach shots. So while I can hit shots on a "regular" course and get the ball close to the pin and make a couple of birdies, I have to play differently on a tour setup, much more conservatively. I can't aim at pins, especially tucked pins, I have to aim at the "safe" area of the green, which doesn't leave a lot of opps for birdies. Plus the additional length means I am hitting at least one more club into a given hole so my landing trajectory is lower. This is also how I play in qualifiers, trying to avoid the dreaded double, but minimizing my opps at birdie.
    Old stuff:
    1962 Tommy Armour AT2W Driver
    1953 Macgregor M65W EOM 3 wood
    1978 H&B PowerBilt Citation 4 wood
    1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E
    1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
    1964 Acushnet O-SET M6S Bullseye Putter

    New stuff
    Cobra ZL 10.5 driver
    Adams 5050 16 fairway wood
    Adams A2P 20* hybrid
    Titleist 716 MB irons 4-PW
    Callaway Mack Daddy wedges 52, 56, 60
    Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Napa

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file