PM Grind vs High Toe

irsihmen453irsihmen453 Members Posts: 201 ✭✭
Not sure if this has been talked about but with the new PM grind coming out looking to hear people’s thoughts on the original vs the High Toe?
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Comments

  • SilenceXSilenceX Members Posts: 25
    I have a Hi-Toe in 60 and played around with my father's PM Grind in 60 before I bought it. They're pretty close to each other in terms of feel and top down look (minus the finish of course). I think the ATV sole of the Hi-Toe helps me out in bunkers a bit more but at a sacrifice of maybe a little less forgiveness and higher chance of blading it off a tight lie if I get a little handsy and miss hit it.



    All in all, from my amateur perspective they feel and play pretty identical as long as you don't mind the copper finish (or don't mind using a vinegar solution to remove it.) I went with the Hi-Toe because I just preferred the Hi Rev shaft over the Tour V, I get a bit more spin and height to it which is what I look for in a lob wedge. That and I actually really like the copper finish and how it transforms from each strike.
  • Phil MajorPhil Major Posts: 97 ✭✭
    edited Jan 7, 2019 8:11pm #3
    New PM Grind will come with Hi Rev II shaft as standard shaft. I am looking forward to test it to see if it is way better than original PM Grind that I had when it came out and my present SM6 60 with Recoil 95. If so then it will be in my bag for 2019.
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,359 ✭✭
    edited Jan 7, 2019 8:23pm #4
    They're the same wedge.
    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Adams Super LS XTD 15* & 19* Kuro Kage stiff
    Bridgestone j40 DPC 4-PW s300
    Vokey SM6 50* & 55*
    PM Grind 64*
  • cgasuckscgasucks Members Posts: 2,160 ✭✭
    The HI-Toe which was inspired by the PM Grind which was inspired by the Ping Eye 2 Lob wedge that Mickelson played for a long time.
    10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft
    Titleist DCI 990 Irons (3-PW) with stock Dynamic Gold shafts in S300
    Taylormade ATV 54 deg & 58 deg wedges with stock KBS shafts
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  • Minarets1Minarets1 Members Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Top 

    anymore thoughts on these two?
  • MinaretsMinarets Members Posts: 3,862 ✭✭
    Yes I wonder how good these are on full shots. Afraid of possible digging.  
    Driver: Adams 9064LS 9.5*
    Irons: Ping I-20 4-W
    Hybrids: Taylormade Rescue Mid 16*, 19*
    Wedges: Scratch 8620 53*, 58*
    Putter: SeeMore mFGP
    Bag: SM Four5 / Ball: Srixon ZStar XV
  • DFS PFDDFS PFD Members Posts: 833 ✭✭
    My personal experience, Hi-Toe is fantastic around the greens and on full shots. The PM grind is superb around the green and terrible on full shots for me because of the massive amount of offset. YMMV
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    50* MG Raw Tour issue S400
    55* MG Raw Tour issue S400
    60* Hi-Toe Tour Issue S400
    J-DAY Spider
  • IvyguyIvyguy Members Posts: 1,407 ✭✭
    I am sooooo torn.  I really like the versatility of the pm/hi toe wedges.  I play 710mb and would love to go 52 or 54 then 60 with one of these two brands.

    I would like to strip them (I had a 64 in the PM, very glary with the large face), so that would be a piece to the equation. It seems like the tm would be easier to tarnish or strip.


  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,606 ✭✭
    I tried both.  Hi Toe was a bit more 'clunky' for me.  But, it spins MUCH more than the PM grind.  Not even close.  In the end, I was just better off sticking with my Edel Digger grind.  That's where they got the idea for those grinds anyway.



    RH
  • mizunoMX25mizunoMX25 Members Posts: 231 ✭✭
    I had the Hi-Toe in 58 for a while and hated it. I tried the PM Grind 2.0 yesterday in 54 and it was awesome. The difference between it and the original is full shots are SO much better. And the Hi-Toe felt really low bounce and was tough off of tight lies. I love my Vokey 58D but I'm probably gonna get my 52F bent to 50 and add a PM Grind 2.0 in 54.
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  • kiw1982kiw1982 Members Posts: 1,173 ✭✭
    Leading edge is the key difference.
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  • third-times-a-charmthird-times-a-charm Members Posts: 1,404 ✭✭
    PM grind/hi toe wedges look and feel like youre playing golf with a waffle iron attached to a stick.

    Yuck.
    Long Live Nike
  • MinaretsMinarets Members Posts: 3,862 ✭✭
    I want a 54° and 58°. Would bend the 54° to a 53°. I just worry if the bounce is good and of the leading edge doesn’t just dig too much for me.

    playing a 54°D SM7 and a 58°M grind right now. 
    Driver: Adams 9064LS 9.5*
    Irons: Ping I-20 4-W
    Hybrids: Taylormade Rescue Mid 16*, 19*
    Wedges: Scratch 8620 53*, 58*
    Putter: SeeMore mFGP
    Bag: SM Four5 / Ball: Srixon ZStar XV
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,178 ✭✭
    Minarets said:
    Yes I wonder how good these are on full shots. Afraid of possible digging.  
    Like any wedge they’re both fine for full shots. You can chunk it or blade or hit it perfectly solid.
  • craz-ecraz-e Members Posts: 4,027 ✭✭
    Currently have the hi toe in 64* but will test the PM grind when available near me. The hi toe hasn’t wowed me yet so that’s why I am looking at other options 
    Driver = Ping G410 Plus even flow black 6.0
    5 Wood = Taylormade Burner

    Irons = Miura 1957 Baby Blades Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wilson Staff FG59 DG S300's (4-PW)
    Titleist 718 MB Project X LZ 6.0 (4-PW)
    Wedges = Titleist Vokey SM6 52*, 56* and 60*

    = Taylormade 64* Hi-Toe
    Putter = Wilson Staff 8882
    Ball = Titleist AVX
  • ChipNRunChipNRun Members Posts: 1,169 ✭✭
    The MD PM grind has a U-grind sole - it is concave, curving inward. This helps keep the wedge from digging too much.

    As cgasucks notes, the idea is based upon on the Ping Eye2 wedges which developed a hollowed out sole depression after heavy use. Players replacing these wedges asked for a custom sole grind which matched the depression from heavy usage. This appears in the current Ping ES models. 

    What's In The Bag *...

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    FWs: Tour Edge XRail 4W + 7W / GraphiteDesign G60 R-flex 60 gr.
    or Calla Alpha 815, set 16° + 20° / Fuji Motore Speeder 665 R-flex 62 gr.
    Hybrid: Cobra FlyZ 3H 19° + 4H 22° / Matrix VLCT Altus Lite flex 73 gr.
    Irons: Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i - PW** / KBS Tour 90 R-flex 95 gr. (As of 21 Nov 2018)
    Wedge: Calla MD3 48°/8.SS + 54°/12.WS +
    MD.PM 60°/10 / KBS Tour R-flex 110 gr. |
    Putter: Slotline Inertial SL-583F / 34" w. SuperStroke 2.0 MidSlim grip
    Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag
    Ball: Calla SuperSoft
    * Either 7W or 3H left out, depending on course.
    ** Wedges: 46°and 48°are competing for bag space.
  • bogeyprobogeypro The Original Bogeypro ClubWRX Posts: 3,177 ClubWRX
    I love the high toe.  Hated the pm.  The high toe doesn’t have the offset and rounder curved leading edge.  This is why the high toe is better on full shots and square face shots, for me.   The atv grind is better for me than the u concave grind on the pm.  Love the copper like finish on the high toe.  Mine has begun to tarnish and wear, which looks awesome.  

    They aren’t the same wedge.   If someone says that, they haven’t hit both.    
    Taylormade M1 (2017) 440 9.5* tour w/Atmos Black TS 6x<br />Taylormade M6 Rocket 3 w/Atmos Black 7s<br />Taylormade p790 4-pw <br />Taylormade hi-toe 52-9 and 58-10 wedges <br />Taylormade Spider Mallet 72
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,178 ✭✭
    bogeypro said:
    I love the high toe.  Hated the pm.  The high toe doesn’t have the offset and rounder curved leading edge.  This is why the high toe is better on full shots and square face shots, for me.   The atv grind is better for me than the u concave grind on the pm.  Love the copper like finish on the high toe.  Mine has begun to tarnish and wear, which looks awesome.  

    They aren’t the same wedge.   If someone says that, they haven’t hit both.    

    I’ve had both although not the same lofts. The PM hits full shots and every other shot just fine for me. The Hi-Toe did too it just looked out of place so I sold it and will wait until they do a chrome satin finish. 
  • anthanth From the Land Down Under Members Posts: 2,760 ✭✭
    I went with the Hi Toe because it looks better to my eye from address.  Doesn’t look as awkward to me but I understand that is completely subjective.  I think it works well for all shots - full, sand, down to finesse chips around the green.  ATV sole works really nicely except out of the tightest of lies, but I’ve never used a wedge that worked well in those conditions (clearly a technique/talent issue, not the clubs fault)
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    Srixon Z 765/965 5 - PW
    TaylorMade Milled Grind 50 & 54
    TaylorMade Milled Grind Hi Toe 58
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    TaylorMade TP5
  • dre72dre72 Members Posts: 484 ✭✭

    I have had Hi-toe wedges as well as the 2019 PM grind. I much prefer the new Pm grind over the HT because of the sole configuration. My HT had the ATV grind and there just wasn't enough bounce for me. The PM grind might be is the ugliest wedge ever created, but it works. I can lay it wide open and hit super flops or play it back in my stance and hit low skippers. The one place that the HT really outperformed the PM grind is distance control out of a bunker. I've struggled hitting the PM grind the distance I want out of bunkers.

  • ago33ago33 Members Posts: 2,152 ✭✭

    This is going to sound weird. I played the Pm grind, have a tour issue square leading edge 60 taylormade but for me, the Mack daddy forged (blue dots) has the best of everything. Full shots all the way down to standard pitches. I’ll take some comparison pics tonight.


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    Mizuno MP-18 FliHi 4,5................................AMT TI X100
    Mizuno MP-25 6-PW....................................AMT TI X100
    Callaway MD Forged 50, 56.........................AMT TI S400
    TI Taylormade Hi Toe 60.09..........................AMT TI S400
    Scotty Cameron 5.5M...................................Grip Master
  • fkim011fkim011 Official Club Whore Irvine, CaliforniaMembers Posts: 748 ✭✭

    The hosel design for this year and last year on the PM grind is completely different. I had both the HT and the PM for at least half season each. The PM is in the bag. It was a better club for me all the around especially of chipping from all different lies.

  • QuigleyDUQuigleyDU Members Posts: 6,190 ✭✭

    i think the difference comes down to which one you like to look at the most. They are slightly different in their appearance. i think they both play really well.

    driver: SRIXON Z745
    fairway: NIKE VAPOR 13*
    3-4 IRON: MIZZY MP18MMC FLIHI
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,359 ✭✭

    As I said earlier, they are literally the same wedge except for aesthetics. Good post by QuigleyDJ.

    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Adams Super LS XTD 15* & 19* Kuro Kage stiff
    Bridgestone j40 DPC 4-PW s300
    Vokey SM6 50* & 55*
    PM Grind 64*
  • eldog-in-the-hizouseeldog-in-the-hizouse Members Posts: 952 ✭✭

    I'm not a big fan of the looks of either one, but I dislike the finish on the Hi-Toe the most. I think TM would sell more if they offered it in other finishes. I'm not sure I saw performance benefits from either one of them over the Vokeys I normally play.

  • MinaretsMinarets Members Posts: 3,862 ✭✭

    It always so hard to try out wedges. Can’t really hit them in the sim at a hitting bay. Even if you can, no clue how they will play in the real world.

    Driver: Adams 9064LS 9.5*
    Irons: Ping I-20 4-W
    Hybrids: Taylormade Rescue Mid 16*, 19*
    Wedges: Scratch 8620 53*, 58*
    Putter: SeeMore mFGP
    Bag: SM Four5 / Ball: Srixon ZStar XV
  • cmatthews77cmatthews77 Members Posts: 803 ✭✭

    I don't have any experience with the high toe but I had the original PM grind and recently put the new 2019 version in the bag. I was skeptical if they could make significant improvements but I would say they definitely have. Here's my thoughts:

    1. The changes they made with the additional grinding allows the clubs leading edge to sit right into the ground rather than looking "raised" despite it having 2 more degrees of bounce. This is excellent and makes it even easier on tight lies.
    2. Just like the original it's so easy to play shots with the face open that I feel I don't need any more loft than the 58. I can't necessarily compare spin/grooves because I had played the original for 2+ years but the new one spins plenty!
    3. The club definitely "appears" more offset because of how they put a little bend in the shaft as it meets the hosel. If you look closely at the alignment it's not really that much offset. Although I'm like many people and don't like offset typically- it's really helpful in this club. The one challenge you hear with this club is full shots. It's quite easy to hit full shots with it BUT I do sometimes struggle to control the amount of dynamic loft I present at impact because of the design. So for me the "offset look" is helpful for getting the hands more forward/ presenting some shaft lean when hitting fuller shots with this club so that I present the proper dynamic loft. Again that's why this club is so unique- this one wedge at 58 degrees I feel like it I can use as a 60+ degree lob for flops or stated loft.
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,359 ✭✭

    @cmatthews77 said:
    I don't have any experience with the high toe but I had the original PM grind and recently put the new 2019 version in the bag. I was skeptical if they could make significant improvements but I would say they definitely have. Here's my thoughts:

    1. The changes they made with the additional grinding allows the clubs leading edge to sit right into the ground rather than looking "raised" despite it having 2 more degrees of bounce. This is excellent and makes it even easier on tight lies.
    2. Just like the original it's so easy to play shots with the face open that I feel I don't need any more loft than the 58. I can't necessarily compare spin/grooves because I had played the original for 2+ years but the new one spins plenty!
    3. The club definitely "appears" more offset because of how they put a little bend in the shaft as it meets the hosel. If you look closely at the alignment it's not really that much offset. Although I'm like many people and don't like offset typically- it's really helpful in this club. The one challenge you hear with this club is full shots. It's quite easy to hit full shots with it BUT I do sometimes struggle to control the amount of dynamic loft I present at impact because of the design. So for me the "offset look" is helpful for getting the hands more forward/ presenting some shaft lean when hitting fuller shots with this club so that I present the proper dynamic loft. Again that's why this club is so unique- this one wedge at 58 degrees I feel like it I can use as a 60+ degree lob for flops or stated loft.
    1. The PM grind has its bounce behind the leading edge. It is impossible for the new PM to sit tighter than the old. Measure it. They're both 0.0* - completely flush. Most wedges the bounce is between the raised leading edge and the sole. That isn't how the PM works. The edge is in the exact same spot (right on the ground).
    2. Opening the face adds loft. When you open the face, its not 58* any more. Its probably more like 68*.
    3. It has more offset. You may like that or not (most don't) but it has about twice the offset of the first model. Its so the hosel doesn't catch when you open it.
    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Adams Super LS XTD 15* & 19* Kuro Kage stiff
    Bridgestone j40 DPC 4-PW s300
    Vokey SM6 50* & 55*
    PM Grind 64*
  • kiw1982kiw1982 Members Posts: 1,173 ✭✭

    I would like to hear about their full shot.
    When I had old pm, it was hard to hit full shots somehow.

    Mizuno        ST-180 Driver w/KuroKage HBP 50 S+
    Taylormade  M6 3 Wood w/NV 2KXV Blue 75 S+
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  • cmatthews77cmatthews77 Members Posts: 803 ✭✭

    1) Well maybe not "measured" but it appeared that way to me. I actually put them side-by-side and there wasn't as much difference as I thought but it still looks different. Maybe it's the curve or maybe its the position and length of the bottom groove but the newer one to me just appears more "snug" to the ground.

    2) Yes, I'm VERY aware opening the face adds loft. That was my point that this club is so easy to play with the face open that I just don't see the need for me personally playing a wedge with more than 58 loft because I"m effectively playing it with way more loft most of the time anyways.

    3) Not disputing it didn't have more offset. I'm saying it "appears" like a lot more offset than is actually there because of the shaft bend into the hosel.


    1. The PM grind has its bounce behind the leading edge. It is impossible for the new PM to sit tighter than the old. Measure it. They're both 0.0* - completely flush. Most wedges the bounce is between the raised leading edge and the sole. That isn't how the PM works. The edge is in the exact same spot (right on the ground).
    2. Opening the face adds loft. When you open the face, its not 58* any more. Its probably more like 68*.
    3. It has more offset. You may like that or not (most don't) but it has about twice the offset of the first model. Its so the hosel doesn't catch when you open it.
    Callaway
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    GBB Epic 3W (14) - Diamana
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    '16 Apex CF16 (5i), '16 Apex Pro (6,7), '18 Apex MB (8-PW) Recoil 95
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