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PM Grind vs High Toe


irsihmen453

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I have a Hi-Toe in 60 and played around with my father's PM Grind in 60 before I bought it. They're pretty close to each other in terms of feel and top down look (minus the finish of course). I think the ATV sole of the Hi-Toe helps me out in bunkers a bit more but at a sacrifice of maybe a little less forgiveness and higher chance of blading it off a tight lie if I get a little handsy and miss hit it.

 

All in all, from my amateur perspective they feel and play pretty identical as long as you don't mind the copper finish (or don't mind using a vinegar solution to remove it.) I went with the Hi-Toe because I just preferred the Hi Rev shaft over the Tour V, I get a bit more spin and height to it which is what I look for in a lob wedge. That and I actually really like the copper finish and how it transforms from each strike.

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New PM Grind will come with Hi Rev II shaft as standard shaft. I am looking forward to test it to see if it is way better than original PM Grind that I had when it came out and my present SM6 60 with Recoil 95. If so then it will be in my bag for 2019.

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Callaway PM Grind 19  Tour Grey 59*/11  Aerotech SteelFiber 110cw S

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The HI-Toe which was inspired by the PM Grind which was inspired by the Ping Eye 2 Lob wedge that Mickelson played for a long time.

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  • 2 months later...

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anymore thoughts on these two?

Driver: Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond 8*, Tensei AV White 75g
Irons: TaylorMade P790, 5-PW; Mitsubishi MMT 110g
Hybrids: Ping G425 19*
Wedges: Ping Glide 3.0 50*, 54*, 60*
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Bag: Ping Hoofer Lite Midnight
Ball: Bridgestone Tour B X yellow, Callaway Chrome Soft X LS

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Yes I wonder how good these are on full shots. Afraid of possible digging.  

Driver: Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond 8*, Tensei AV White 75g
Irons: TaylorMade P790, 5-PW; Mitsubishi MMT 110g
Hybrids: Ping G425 19*
Wedges: Ping Glide 3.0 50*, 54*, 60*
Putter: L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1, Polar BGT shaft   
Bag: Ping Hoofer Lite Midnight
Ball: Bridgestone Tour B X yellow, Callaway Chrome Soft X LS

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I am sooooo torn.  I really like the versatility of the pm/hi toe wedges.  I play 710mb and would love to go 52 or 54 then 60 with one of these two brands.

 

I would like to strip them (I had a 64 in the PM, very glary with the large face), so that would be a piece to the equation. It seems like the tm would be easier to tarnish or strip.

 

 

 

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I tried both.  Hi Toe was a bit more 'clunky' for me.  But, it spins MUCH more than the PM grind.  Not even close.  In the end, I was just better off sticking with my Edel Digger grind.  That's where they got the idea for those grinds anyway.

 

 

 

RH

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I had the Hi-Toe in 58 for a while and hated it. I tried the PM Grind 2.0 yesterday in 54 and it was awesome. The difference between it and the original is full shots are SO much better. And the Hi-Toe felt really low bounce and was tough off of tight lies. I love my Vokey 58D but I'm probably gonna get my 52F bent to 50 and add a PM Grind 2.0 in 54.

 

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Leading edge is the key difference.

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I want a 54° and 58°. Would bend the 54° to a 53°. I just worry if the bounce is good and of the leading edge doesn’t just dig too much for me.

 

playing a 54°D SM7 and a 58°M grind right now. 

Driver: Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond 8*, Tensei AV White 75g
Irons: TaylorMade P790, 5-PW; Mitsubishi MMT 110g
Hybrids: Ping G425 19*
Wedges: Ping Glide 3.0 50*, 54*, 60*
Putter: L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1, Polar BGT shaft   
Bag: Ping Hoofer Lite Midnight
Ball: Bridgestone Tour B X yellow, Callaway Chrome Soft X LS

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Currently have the hi toe in 64* but will test the PM grind when available near me. The hi toe hasn’t wowed me yet so that’s why I am looking at other options 

Driver = Callaway Smoke-Ai Max-D 

3 wood = Callaway Smoke-Ai Max HL

3 Hybrid = Taylormade Stealth Pro
Irons = 4-PW Miura KM 700
Gap Wedge = Miura HB 50*

Sand Wedge = Taylormade MG3 TW 56*

Putter = LAB DF3

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The MD PM grind has a U-grind sole - it is concave, curving inward. This helps keep the wedge from digging too much.

o8r4avxx0nyr.jpg

As cgasucks notes, the idea is based upon on the Ping Eye2 wedges which developed a hollowed out sole depression after heavy use. Players replacing these wedges asked for a custom sole grind which matched the depression from heavy usage. This appears in the current Ping ES models. 

7650s7oojed5.jpg

 

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Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5° (base loft); weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

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I love the high toe.  Hated the pm.  The high toe doesn’t have the offset and rounder curved leading edge.  This is why the high toe is better on full shots and square face shots, for me.   The atv grind is better for me than the u concave grind on the pm.  Love the copper like finish on the high toe.  Mine has begun to tarnish and wear, which looks awesome.  

 

They aren’t the same wedge.   If someone says that, they haven’t hit both.    

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bogeypro said:
I love the high toe.  Hated the pm.  The high toe doesn’t have the offset and rounder curved leading edge.  This is why the high toe is better on full shots and square face shots, for me.   The atv grind is better for me than the u concave grind on the pm.  Love the copper like finish on the high toe.  Mine has begun to tarnish and wear, which looks awesome.  

 

They aren’t the same wedge.   If someone says that, they haven’t hit both.    

I’ve had both although not the same lofts. The PM hits full shots and every other shot just fine for me. The Hi-Toe did too it just looked out of place so I sold it and will wait until they do a chrome satin finish. 

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I went with the Hi Toe because it looks better to my eye from address.  Doesn’t look as awkward to me but I understand that is completely subjective.  I think it works well for all shots - full, sand, down to finesse chips around the green.  ATV sole works really nicely except out of the tightest of lies, but I’ve never used a wedge that worked well in those conditions (clearly a technique/talent issue, not the clubs fault)

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I have had Hi-toe wedges as well as the 2019 PM grind. I much prefer the new Pm grind over the HT because of the sole configuration. My HT had the ATV grind and there just wasn't enough bounce for me. The PM grind ~~might be~~ is the ugliest wedge ever created, but it works. I can lay it wide open and hit super flops or play it back in my stance and hit low skippers. The one place that the HT really outperformed the PM grind is distance control out of a bunker. I've struggled hitting the PM grind the distance I want out of bunkers.

 

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This is going to sound weird. I played the Pm grind, have a tour issue square leading edge 60 taylormade but for me, the Mack daddy forged (blue dots) has the best of everything. Full shots all the way down to standard pitches. I’ll take some comparison pics tonight.

Taylormade Stealth 2 Plus 7*........................Project X Smoke Green 60 TX
Taylormade Stealth Plus 13*.........................Fujikura Ventus Black 8X
Taylormade Stealth Plus 17*.........................Fujikura Ventus Black 9X

Srixon ZX Utility 3..........................................Fujikura Ventus Black 10TX
Srixon ZX Utility 4..........................................Dynamic Gold X7
Srixon ZX7 5-9...............................................Dynamic Gold X7
Cleveland Zipcore Raw 47, 53......................Dynamic Gold X7

Vokey Wedge Works V Grind 59..................Dynamic Gold S400
Yes! Ann.........................................................KBS GPS 120

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i think the difference comes down to which one you like to look at the most. They are slightly different in their appearance. i think they both play really well.

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It always so hard to try out wedges. Can’t really hit them in the sim at a hitting bay. Even if you can, no clue how they will play in the real world.

Driver: Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond 8*, Tensei AV White 75g
Irons: TaylorMade P790, 5-PW; Mitsubishi MMT 110g
Hybrids: Ping G425 19*
Wedges: Ping Glide 3.0 50*, 54*, 60*
Putter: L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1, Polar BGT shaft   
Bag: Ping Hoofer Lite Midnight
Ball: Bridgestone Tour B X yellow, Callaway Chrome Soft X LS

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I don't have any experience with the high toe but I had the original PM grind and recently put the new 2019 version in the bag. I was skeptical if they could make significant improvements but I would say they definitely have. Here's my thoughts:

 

1. The changes they made with the additional grinding allows the clubs leading edge to sit right into the ground rather than looking "raised" despite it having 2 more degrees of bounce. This is excellent and makes it even easier on tight lies.

2. Just like the original it's so easy to play shots with the face open that I feel I don't need any more loft than the 58. I can't necessarily compare spin/grooves because I had played the original for 2+ years but the new one spins plenty!

3. The club definitely "appears" more offset because of how they put a little bend in the shaft as it meets the hosel. If you look closely at the alignment it's not really that much offset. Although I'm like many people and don't like offset typically- it's really helpful in this club. The one challenge you hear with this club is full shots. It's quite easy to hit full shots with it BUT I do sometimes struggle to control the amount of dynamic loft I present at impact because of the design. So for me the "offset look" is helpful for getting the hands more forward/ presenting some shaft lean when hitting fuller shots with this club so that I present the proper dynamic loft. Again that's why this club is so unique- this one wedge at 58 degrees I feel like it I can use as a 60+ degree lob for flops or stated loft.

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> @cmatthews77 said:

> I don't have any experience with the high toe but I had the original PM grind and recently put the new 2019 version in the bag. I was skeptical if they could make significant improvements but I would say they definitely have. Here's my thoughts:

>

> 1. The changes they made with the additional grinding allows the clubs leading edge to sit right into the ground rather than looking "raised" despite it having 2 more degrees of bounce. This is excellent and makes it even easier on tight lies.

> 2. Just like the original it's so easy to play shots with the face open that I feel I don't need any more loft than the 58. I can't necessarily compare spin/grooves because I had played the original for 2+ years but the new one spins plenty!

> 3. The club definitely "appears" more offset because of how they put a little bend in the shaft as it meets the hosel. If you look closely at the alignment it's not really that much offset. Although I'm like many people and don't like offset typically- it's really helpful in this club. The one challenge you hear with this club is full shots. It's quite easy to hit full shots with it BUT I do sometimes struggle to control the amount of dynamic loft I present at impact because of the design. So for me the "offset look" is helpful for getting the hands more forward/ presenting some shaft lean when hitting fuller shots with this club so that I present the proper dynamic loft. Again that's why this club is so unique- this one wedge at 58 degrees I feel like it I can use as a 60+ degree lob for flops or stated loft.

 

1. The PM grind has its bounce behind the leading edge. It is impossible for the new PM to sit tighter than the old. Measure it. They're both 0.0* - completely flush. Most wedges the bounce is between the raised leading edge and the sole. That isn't how the PM works. The edge is in the exact same spot (right on the ground).

2. Opening the face adds loft. When you open the face, its not 58* any more. Its probably more like 68*.

3. It has more offset. You may like that or not (most don't) but it has about twice the offset of the first model. Its so the hosel doesn't catch when you open it.

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I would like to hear about their full shot.

When I had old pm, it was hard to hit full shots somehow.

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