Glass Shafting Beads

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  • MrFlapjackMrFlapjack  2637Members Posts: 2,637
    Joined:  #32

    @TwoSheds said:
    Thanks for clearing that up :smile: Much of what you said I was already aware of; my post was actually aimed at the people in this thread who are literally using beads specifically to get the shaft 'properly centred'.
    On a serious note, with sufficiently viscous epoxy (and most likely without), it seems to me that shafting beads are solving a problem that doesn't really exist (in the context of their application to golf club assembly) . Why do I say that? Because at 0.002", they are most likely smaller than the manufacturing tolerances for how consistent a bore-hole's diameter is, across the entire depth of that hole (not to mention how geometrically correct that circular hole is versus the geometric accuracy of the circle of the shaft that will align to it). And the consequence of that, is that they could potentially create the 'issue' they are supposed to avoid, if you think about it.

    I could be wrong, but I dont see how beads could create an off center issue. Light coat inside the hosel, also on the shaft tip, and a couple rotations once the shaft is installed. Dont use beaded epoxy when sliding the ferrule on obviously.
    If the bore is only .001 bigger than the shaft then I would be more worried about not enough epoxy, and would probably prep the tip a bit more, or ream the hosel to the proper size. Is there a min thinness spec for epoxy?
    If the hosel is .004 bigger than the shaft well than it should center perfectly with beads, and probably without them as well.
    If the hosel is say .010 bigger, and you feel obvious play in the shaft, then at least beads will help correct a bit of that, since the shaft will probably want to sit angled in the hosel when drying. A collared ferrule would help as well as long as the hosel has the right bevel.

    Posted:
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    Cobra F8 3 hybrid (HZRDUS Black 85 6.5)
    4 Hybrid...
    Srixon Z545 5-AW (SF i110 stiff)
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  • TwoShedsTwoSheds London, England 54Members Posts: 54
    Joined:  edited Apr 9, 2019 12:51pm #33

    @MrFlapjack said:

    I could be wrong, but I dont see how beads could create an off center issue. Light coat inside the hosel, also on the shaft tip, and a couple rotations once the shaft is installed. Dont use beaded epoxy when sliding the ferrule on obviously.
    If the bore is only .001 bigger than the shaft then I would be more worried about not enough epoxy, and would probably prep the tip a bit more, or ream the hosel to the proper size. Is there a min thinness spec for epoxy?
    If the hosel is .004 bigger than the shaft well than it should center perfectly with beads, and probably without them as well.
    If the hosel is say .010 bigger, and you feel obvious play in the shaft, then at least beads will help correct a bit of that, since the shaft will probably want to sit angled in the hosel when drying. A collared ferrule would help as well as long as the hosel has the right bevel.

    I was referring to cases where the hosel minus shaft diameter is less than 2x the size of the beads. In that case, it would not be possible to fit beads all around the shaft, meaning that it must be off-centre. It's all theoretical nit-picking, though, as StuartG says...

    Posted:
    Post edited by TwoSheds on
  • EricWGolfEricWGolf  680Members Posts: 680
    Joined:  #34

    @Nessism said:
    Shafting beads and heat guns: the two most misused items in the workshop.

    @Nessism - - now I’m terrified that I’m misusing my heat gun. Please explain!

    Posted:
  • BigBodBigBod Operations Director, Diamond Golf International & Wishon Golf Littlehampton, UK 68Members Posts: 68
    Joined:  #35

    When I was assembling a good few years ago I always used a pinch of sandblast sand in the epoxy. Never did any harm. We did a lot of assembly for Hogan back in the day, they insisted we use fishing line in the hosel of each club, epoxy in the head, place a length of line in the hosel, push the shaft in and twist. This would twist the line around the shaft and center it in the bore. It was the Hogan way and nothing else would do....

    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New Hampshire 24175Members Posts: 24,175
    Joined:  #36

    @EricWGolf said:

    @Nessism said:
    Shafting beads and heat guns: the two most misused items in the workshop.

    @Nessism - - now I’m terrified that I’m misusing my heat gun. Please explain!

    Many think that a heat gun is a better option for pulling graphite because the lower temps will help to prevent overheating (and thus damaging) the graphite shaft tip. In reality that viewpoint is completely false and use of lower heat actually increases the risk. How hot the shaft tip will get (and therefore the likelihood of potential damage) is much more a function of how much time is spent trying to heat up the epoxy - not the temperature applied. And since heat guns are very inefficient at transferring heat, they generally will take a LOT more time than when pulling with a torch - resulting in the shaft tip heating up way more than they would when a torch is used.

    Posted:
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know...  18964Members Posts: 18,964
    Joined:  #37

    @BigBod said:
    When I was assembling a good few years ago I always used a pinch of sandblast sand in the epoxy. Never did any harm. We did a lot of assembly for Hogan back in the day, they insisted we use fishing line in the hosel of each club, epoxy in the head, place a length of line in the hosel, push the shaft in and twist. This would twist the line around the shaft and center it in the bore. It was the Hogan way and nothing else would do....

    Centering the shaft in the bore is good and different companies use different methodologies. Many companies are using collared ferrules these days to center the shaft which is probably the best way. Mizuno used to, maybe still does, crimp the shaft so there is localized interference of the shaft in the hosel which keeps it centered and allows the club to be handled after shaft install. Fishing line is a novel approach. Personally, I use fiberglass drywall tape wrapped around the shaft tip if the fit is loose. It takes more time but I'd rather do this than put filler junk in the epoxy.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
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  • BigBodBigBod Operations Director, Diamond Golf International & Wishon Golf Littlehampton, UK 68Members Posts: 68
    Joined:  #38

    @Nessism said:

    @BigBod said:
    When I was assembling a good few years ago I always used a pinch of sandblast sand in the epoxy. Never did any harm. We did a lot of assembly for Hogan back in the day, they insisted we use fishing line in the hosel of each club, epoxy in the head, place a length of line in the hosel, push the shaft in and twist. This would twist the line around the shaft and center it in the bore. It was the Hogan way and nothing else would do....

    Centering the shaft in the bore is good and different companies use different methodologies. Many companies are using collared ferrules these days to center the shaft which is probably the best way. Mizuno used to, maybe still does, crimp the shaft so there is localized interference of the shaft in the hosel which keeps it centered and allows the club to be handled after shaft install. Fishing line is a novel approach. Personally, I use fiberglass drywall tape wrapped around the shaft tip if the fit is loose. It takes more time but I'd rather do this than put filler junk in the epoxy.

    We had 2 crimping machines that worked on compressed air and a foot pedal, one for .370" and one for .335" and once the epoxy was applied we would ram the head onto the shaft using bench mounted air guns...we had a production line of 15 people making clubs all day long!!! I never ever ever want to stand in front of a ferrule turning machine for 10 hours again! EVER!

    Posted:
  • MrFlapjackMrFlapjack  2637Members Posts: 2,637
    Joined:  #39

    @Nessism said:

    @BigBod said:
    When I was assembling a good few years ago I always used a pinch of sandblast sand in the epoxy. Never did any harm. We did a lot of assembly for Hogan back in the day, they insisted we use fishing line in the hosel of each club, epoxy in the head, place a length of line in the hosel, push the shaft in and twist. This would twist the line around the shaft and center it in the bore. It was the Hogan way and nothing else would do....

    Centering the shaft in the bore is good and different companies use different methodologies. Many companies are using collared ferrules these days to center the shaft which is probably the best way. Mizuno used to, maybe still does, crimp the shaft so there is localized interference of the shaft in the hosel which keeps it centered and allows the club to be handled after shaft install. Fishing line is a novel approach. Personally, I use fiberglass drywall tape wrapped around the shaft tip if the fit is loose. It takes more time but I'd rather do this than put filler junk in the epoxy.

    Isn't the drywall tape "filler" as well?

    Posted:
    Cobra LTD HZRDUS 75g 6.5 (Synergy Black 70TX tipped 1/2")
    Ping 2014 Rapture 3W - Blueboard 73x5ct
    Cobra F8 3 hybrid (HZRDUS Black 85 6.5)
    4 Hybrid...
    Srixon Z545 5-AW (SF i110 stiff)
    RTX 3.0 - 54 and 58 (SF i125 stiff)
    Ping Ketsch Mid 
  • NessismNessism To measure is to know...  18964Members Posts: 18,964
    Joined:  edited Apr 9, 2019 4:27pm #40

    @MrFlapjack said:

    @Nessism said:

    @BigBod said:
    When I was assembling a good few years ago I always used a pinch of sandblast sand in the epoxy. Never did any harm. We did a lot of assembly for Hogan back in the day, they insisted we use fishing line in the hosel of each club, epoxy in the head, place a length of line in the hosel, push the shaft in and twist. This would twist the line around the shaft and center it in the bore. It was the Hogan way and nothing else would do....

    Centering the shaft in the bore is good and different companies use different methodologies. Many companies are using collared ferrules these days to center the shaft which is probably the best way. Mizuno used to, maybe still does, crimp the shaft so there is localized interference of the shaft in the hosel which keeps it centered and allows the club to be handled after shaft install. Fishing line is a novel approach. Personally, I use fiberglass drywall tape wrapped around the shaft tip if the fit is loose. It takes more time but I'd rather do this than put filler junk in the epoxy.

    Isn't the drywall tape "filler" as well?

    I suppose, but I think a better way to think of it is as a spacer. Glass fibers should be stronger than granules of glass particles. Plus you can fine tune the fit by varying the number of glass wraps.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • SocratesSocrates Warning Points 1+ Winnipeg 9665ClubWRX Posts: 9,665
    Joined:  #41

    @Nessism said:

    @MrFlapjack said:

    @Nessism said:

    @BigBod said:
    When I was assembling a good few years ago I always used a pinch of sandblast sand in the epoxy. Never did any harm. We did a lot of assembly for Hogan back in the day, they insisted we use fishing line in the hosel of each club, epoxy in the head, place a length of line in the hosel, push the shaft in and twist. This would twist the line around the shaft and center it in the bore. It was the Hogan way and nothing else would do....

    Centering the shaft in the bore is good and different companies use different methodologies. Many companies are using collared ferrules these days to center the shaft which is probably the best way. Mizuno used to, maybe still does, crimp the shaft so there is localized interference of the shaft in the hosel which keeps it centered and allows the club to be handled after shaft install. Fishing line is a novel approach. Personally, I use fiberglass drywall tape wrapped around the shaft tip if the fit is loose. It takes more time but I'd rather do this than put filler junk in the epoxy.

    Isn't the drywall tape "filler" as well?

    I suppose, but I think a better way to think of it is as a spacer. Glass fibers should be stronger than granules of glass particles. Plus you can fine tune the fit by varying the number of glass wraps.

    I look at it as how well it fits into the epoxy matrix and how evenly it is spaced. With glass beads, you really don't know how the mixture is spaced in the hosel and you could easily have little to none in many areas and the shaft is centered poorly.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
    MCC Align Midsize

  • dbdorsdbdors Houston, Clear Lake area 1934ClubWRX Posts: 1,934
    Joined:  edited Jun 6, 2019 9:18pm #42

    I had seen this before, and didn't really focus on the fact that they use a polymer particles/bead already in the mix. It seems to reduce stress concentrations as one would do for a crack in a sheet of plastic, i.e. drill a hole at the end of the crack to stop if from spreading.

    Posted:

    Woods: Callaway Rogue Sub Zero 8*, Fujikura Ventus 6, stiff: TM M5, 13*, Diamana Thump 75, stiff
    Hybrids: TEE CBX 3H (20d), 4H (22d), Project X Hzrdus Black Hybrid 85 6.0
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    Wedges: Cleveland CBX 54* (bent to 55*), 60*, Accra 80i, stiff
    Putter: Evnroll ER1.2 355g, 33", KBS CT Tour Putter Matte Black, Sense S1 grip
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  • NessismNessism To measure is to know...  18964Members Posts: 18,964
    Joined:  #43

    "Polymer particles" are NOT shafting beads. There is literally no similarity.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • wcbjrwcbjr  2856Members Posts: 2,856
    Joined:  #44

    Shafting beads only work if the size of the bead is equal to the size of the gap between the centered shaft and the hosel.

    Go jump in a ball pit at McDonalds. Anything stopping you from walking around in it? No. The balls (beads) just move around you (the shaft). You are free to situate yourself right against the edge of the pit (the hosel).

    Posted:
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey  459Members Posts: 459
    Joined:  #45

    The beads are sized to be in the range of the typical small gaps you'd get between a typical hosel and a typical shaft where there is a slight bit of slop - e.g on the order of a few thousandths of an inch.

    I don't think anybody is suggesting you could use beads to center a .335 wood shaft into a .370 iron hosel. Provided you really wanted to fill that sort of large gap , that'd be an application for a more substantial shim of metal, fiberglass or carbon fiber.

    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New Hampshire 24175Members Posts: 24,175
    Joined:  edited Jun 7, 2019 2:55pm #46

    @wcbjr said:
    Shafting beads only work if the size of the bead is equal to the size of the gap between the centered shaft and the hosel.

    Go jump in a ball pit at McDonalds. Anything stopping you from walking around in it? No. The balls (beads) just move around you (the shaft). You are free to situate yourself right against the edge of the pit (the hosel).

    That might be true IF the actual purpose of the beads really was to center the shaft, but it's not, so it isn't.

    Posted:
  • wcbjrwcbjr  2856Members Posts: 2,856
    Joined:  #47

    @Stuart_G said:

    @wcbjr said:
    Shafting beads only work if the size of the bead is equal to the size of the gap between the centered shaft and the hosel.

    Go jump in a ball pit at McDonalds. Anything stopping you from walking around in it? No. The balls (beads) just move around you (the shaft). You are free to situate yourself right against the edge of the pit (the hosel).

    That might be true IF the actual purpose of the beads really was to center the shaft, but it's not, so it isn't.

    https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-glass-shafting-beads/p/gw0043/?country=US?country=US&gclid=Cj0KEQjw3PLnBRCpo8PCoaGM99MBEiQAppRuCz45xIifXQs9kYlzUyswEgQjn5at8qHQainSh8V5g38aAmdA8P8HAQ

    "When assembling clubheads these real Glass Shafting Beads can ensure that the golf shaft will be properly centered in the hosel. Mix the Glass Shafting Beads directly into your epoxy mix. The 4 ounce jar provides enough shafting beads for use in hundreds of clubs."

    But ok.

    Posted:
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New Hampshire 24175Members Posts: 24,175
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    @wcbjr said:

    @Stuart_G said:

    @wcbjr said:
    Shafting beads only work if the size of the bead is equal to the size of the gap between the centered shaft and the hosel.

    Go jump in a ball pit at McDonalds. Anything stopping you from walking around in it? No. The balls (beads) just move around you (the shaft). You are free to situate yourself right against the edge of the pit (the hosel).

    That might be true IF the actual purpose of the beads really was to center the shaft, but it's not, so it isn't.

    https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-glass-shafting-beads/p/gw0043/?country=US?country=US&gclid=Cj0KEQjw3PLnBRCpo8PCoaGM99MBEiQAppRuCz45xIifXQs9kYlzUyswEgQjn5at8qHQainSh8V5g38aAmdA8P8HAQ

    "When assembling clubheads these real Glass Shafting Beads can ensure that the golf shaft will be properly centered in the hosel. Mix the Glass Shafting Beads directly into your epoxy mix. The 4 ounce jar provides enough shafting beads for use in hundreds of clubs."

    But ok.

    Common misconception - also one of the reasons this thread is as long as it is.

    Posted:
  • Big BenBig Ben  9239Members Posts: 9,239
    Joined:  #49

    I have a question, does epoxy expand as it drys? Always wondered that...BB

    Posted:
    Irons: 19' Cobra CB's
    Drivers: Titleist TS3 & Cobra F9
    Fairway: Titleist 917F2
    Hybrid: A-Grind
    2 iron: Ping Rapture
    Wedges: Ping Gorge 2.0 Stealth's
    Putter: Evnroll 9.1
    Balls: ProV1
  • kiwiikiwii  802Members Posts: 802
    Joined:  #50

    Chiming in here with the hope that I don’t get roasted.

    I’ve always reasoned that glass beads or sand/grit “contaminated” the epoxy. The contaminants creates voids in the epoxy thus making it weaker. The only way for the beads to add strength would be if they chemically bonded with the epoxy. In golf club application glass beads or grit can add strength to the application by wedging the gap between shaft and hosel. Short of the same reasoning why taper tip applications are thought to be stronger than parallel tip.

    OP: it sounds like you are working with Ping product. Anything that requires collared ferrules won’t fit as well without them. I’ve worked with many woods of different manufacturers that required collared ferrules.

    Posted:
    '17 M1 460 9.5/ Rogue Silver
    XR '14 Pro/ PX LZ
    Adams 9031 18°/ Diamana WB
    716 AP24-pw/DG AMT S300
    '14 TM TP 52/56/60
    2014 Squareback/ Lamkin DE + 2 wraps
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  • DBurnsDBurns  42Members Posts: 42
    Joined:  edited Jun 10, 2019 10:52am #51

    They make the fit feel tighter but how would you ever know the shaft is centered?

    Posted:
  • SocratesSocrates Warning Points 1+ Winnipeg 9665ClubWRX Posts: 9,665
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    @Big Ben said:
    I have a question, does epoxy expand as it drys? Always wondered that...BB

    Epoxy curing is an exothermic reaction. As it heats up, it expands a small amount. Any heat generated is usually absorbed by the cold hosel and you don't see anything squeeze out due to momentary expansion. If you speed up the cure process with heat, you sometimes can get a little come out of the top of the hosel if you have jammed a ton of epoxy into the hosel.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
    MCC Align Midsize

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  • SocratesSocrates Warning Points 1+ Winnipeg 9665ClubWRX Posts: 9,665
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    @kiwii said:
    Chiming in here with the hope that I don’t get roasted.

    I’ve always reasoned that glass beads or sand/grit “contaminated” the epoxy. The contaminants creates voids in the epoxy thus making it weaker. The only way for the beads to add strength would be if they chemically bonded with the epoxy. In golf club application glass beads or grit can add strength to the application by wedging the gap between shaft and hosel. Short of the same reasoning why taper tip applications are thought to be stronger than parallel tip.

    This is fundamentally wrong. There is no where near enough of a friction fit to add anything to the strength of the epoxy bond. If anything, it would reduce it since you are eliminating spots where epoxy can bond the two surfaces. Ping uses the friction fit (at least they used to) to allow them to send the club down the assembly line after gluing without waiting for the epoxy to cure. It has very little strength to it since it is such a small surface.

    Microspheres have their place in the epoxy world, but you need to be adding specific amounts. Where golf people go wrong, is that they use WAY too much of the stuff and compromise the epoxy. Most are far better off to not even use it at all.

    Taper tip differed from parallel tips because of the cutting instructions and shaft design. Back in time with parallel tips, you didn't get the same flex profile as a taper tip and better players wanted taper tips as they were consistent in their performance from wedge to 3 iron. You couldn't say the same thing about a parallel tipped set. Not really an issue today.

    Not roasted, but slightly charred.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
    MCC Align Midsize

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