Could Augusta National Have a Local Rule Banning Leaving the Pin In?

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  • xxioxxio Members Posts: 5,680 ✭✭
    They should local rule allowing the use of non conforming drivers and wedges in Augusta. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,383 ✭✭
    mjen43 wrote:
    SNIPERBBB wrote:

    wfrogge1 wrote:


    Absolutely they could




    Anyone can make their own changes to the Rules. Then of course, you are not playing Golf. Just a game that resembles it.




    What game is football? Youth, high school, NCAA, NFL, CFL?



    What game is basketball? Youth, high school, NCAA, Euro, NBA?



    What is baseball? Youth, high school, NCAA, MLB?



    All other sports have different rule subsets and I think most would consider it them all to be the same sport. I don’t see why golf has to play by the same rules for every level or event. It would still be golf if AN made some rule improvements, the USGA doesn’t own golf.
    NBA is not basketball.
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,535 ✭✭
    People forget that the "committee" at ANGC couldn't even handle a drop procedure correctly.. Why do we think they would be any better than the USGA?



    It's just a flagstick people.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,537 ✭✭
    wkuo3 wrote:


    By all means the Augusta National could impose a local rule for the tournament ....




    What local rule would they impose? The only valid local rules are those defined by the USGA. If you use other rules, then you are not playing by the rules of golf.



    I'm 100% sure that ANGC wants to play by the rules of golf.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,537 ✭✭
    maamold wrote:



    Why would they possibly care?




    Because leaving the pin in is a measured advantage.




    So is cleaning your ball on the green. And that's within the rules.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,537 ✭✭
    mjen43 wrote:


    mjen43 wrote:


    Sure they can.




    No, they can't if they want to play by the rules. Local rules are defined by the USGA.




    Rules as defined by the USGA. The USGA doesn't own golf though so i wouldn't have a problem if they wanted to play by different rules, which is certainly something AN could do.




    ANGC could do anything. They could allow mulligans. THey could allow gimmes. But they wont because they will always play by the USGA rules.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,537 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:


    People forget that the "committee" at ANGC couldn't even handle a drop procedure correctly..




    ???? please explain.
  • hollabachgthollabachgt Members Posts: 643 ✭✭
    It's not like ANGC had an issue with the optics of the pin staying in during the last phase when it was legal. There are plenty of film on the masters website showing players in the late 50's and 60's putting with the flag unattended from distance.



    If it's an advantage to putt with the pin in, and everyone has the priveledge to decide whether the pin stays in or not, then there is no advantage to the field. The only difference is scoring compared to history. When was the rule finally changed that forced the pin's removal? was the scoring for the next year substantially different?



    If not, who cares?
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,791 ✭✭
    edited Feb 4, 2019 11:12am #70
    maamold wrote:

    Club Guru wrote:


    1. Augusta could use pins that aren’t conducive to keeping them in for putts if they want to negate this awful rule.

    2. I may puke if I see someone win the masters this year with a putt on 18 that clanks in off the flag stick.




    That's a great point, Augusta could just change to pins with a larger lower portion, one large enough that the ball has no chance of going in the hole if it's left in.




    ALSO against the Rules of Golf.





    BTW, we've had 4 full PGA tournaments so far this year under the new Rules. And Euro and LPGA and web.com.



    Has anybody seen a putt go in they were SURE would NOT have gone in had the stick been OUT ?



    I haven't. But then I haven't watched all that much coverage. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />

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  • TerpFangolferTerpFangolfer Members Posts: 585 ✭✭
    wobgon wrote:

    maamold wrote:



    Why would they possibly care?




    Because leaving the pin in is a measured advantage.


    To whom?




    great post...it may be an advantage...but, for everyone equally (if they choose to use it)!



    I just think they never considered the "optics" for TV golf? Leaving the pin in is fine for us weekend hacks...but it does look weird/funny to see it on TV image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,791 ✭✭

    wobgon wrote:

    maamold wrote:



    Why would they possibly care?




    Because leaving the pin in is a measured advantage.


    To whom?




    great post...it may be an advantage...but, for everyone equally (if they choose to use it)!



    I just think they never considered the "optics" for TV golf? Leaving the pin in is fine for us weekend hacks...but it does look weird/funny to see it on TV image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />




    ANYTHING so radically different will look weird,,,,,,,,,,,, until it doesn't,,,,,,,,,,,,, image/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='(cool)' />

    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, 20*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300
    Cleveland RTX-4 48, 52, DGS300
    Ping Glide Forged 56*, 60* DGS300
    Odyssey Jailbird Mini (Today - always subject to change LOL)
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,248 ✭✭

    Mudguard wrote:


    I couldn't see any serious tournament doing something so drastic. The USGA and R&A would simply remove the tournament from Order of Merits, World Rankings etc, so the tournament could certainly exist and the winner would get a jacket and prize money but it would no longer be a major (the debate on how a tournament is actually a major is another discussion) and therefore become less attractive to players.




    I think'ths Masters can pretty much do whatever they want without ever jeopardizing their status. The USGA ands R &A don’t determine what is a major, and it won’t ever get less attractive to the players.


    I have to agree with this, the Committee at the Masters could use a non-approved local rule, which would put it specifically outside of what the Committee is allowed to do under the Rules of Golf. So then the USGA gets into a pissing contest, says if you don't use our rules, you can't use ANY of our (copyrighted) Rules, you have to write your own. I can't see either one happening, but they COULD do it.


    maamold wrote:

    Club Guru wrote:


    1. Augusta could use pins that aren’t conducive to keeping them in for putts if they want to negate this awful rule.

    2. I may puke if I see someone win the masters this year with a putt on 18 that clanks in off the flag stick.




    That's a great point, Augusta could just change to pins with a larger lower portion, one large enough that the ball has no chance of going in the hole if it's left in.


    The diameter of the pin is not allowed to be greater than 0.75 inches. Most of us are accustomed to 0.5" diameter pins, so using the maximum size could at least change the statistics around leaving the pin in, to the point where VERY few players would do it. Its interesting that, prior to Jan 1, there was a recommendation that the flagstick be no larger than 0.75", but not a specific requirement.
  • new2g0lfnew2g0lf Members Posts: 3,411 ✭✭
    I was under impression local rules can be applied in the absence of USGA rules on a topic but can't not supersede existing rules. That's why clubs and Tours can specify dress codes, restrict use of golf carts or define their own course markings but they cannot change existing rules. In the case of the flag stick, the rule is written so that it's the golfers decision to leave the flag in or out prior to making a stroke but permits and recognizes both methods so I'm not sure if it's a violation of the rules for a tournament committee to remove the option.
    Driver - Home Ping G410 + 9.5*   Away Ping G400 Max 10*
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,248 ✭✭
    new2g0lf wrote:


    I was under impression local rules can be applied in the absence of USGA rules on a topic but can't not supersede existing rules. That's why clubs and Tours can specify dress codes, restrict use of golf carts or define their own course markings but they cannot change existing rules. In the case of the flag stick, the rule is written so that it's the golfers decision to leave the flag in or out prior to making a stroke but permits and recognizes both methods so I'm not sure if it's a violation of the rules for a tournament committee to remove the option.


    In order to remove the option, they would have to be able to enforce it with a penalty of some kind. This is from 8L in Committee Procedures:
    Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.


    So the Committee must not impose a penalty on something that is expressly NOT penalized under the Rules.
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,537 ✭✭
    new2g0lf wrote:


    I was under impression local rules can be applied in the absence of USGA rules on a topic but can't not supersede existing rules. That's why clubs and Tours can specify dress codes, restrict use of golf carts or define their own course markings but they cannot change existing rules. In the case of the flag stick, the rule is written so that it's the golfers decision to leave the flag in or out prior to making a stroke but permits and recognizes both methods so I'm not sure if it's a violation of the rules for a tournament committee to remove the option.




    The USGA has listed all available local rules. Other local rules cannot be added by a golf course. Dress codes and cart rules do not modify the rules of golf so they are not local rules.



    I don't think there is any option for a tournament committee to override the new "leave the flagstick in" rule.
  • farmerfarmer Members Posts: 7,899 ✭✭
    IF there is ever a quantifiable, statistical advantage to leaving the flagstick in, then everyone will leave it in place. Otherwise, this is a tempest in a very small teacup that will have no real world effect on the game.
  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 3,887 ✭✭
    USGA: NO AUTHORITY FOR LOCAL RULE ON FLAGSTICK AT THE MASTERS

    JACK ROSS JANUARY 28, 2019160 VIEWS



    It appears that players will be able to putt with the flagstick in the hole at the Masters tournament if they choose – even if it looks weird.



    Reports circulated in the golf media recently that the Augusta National Golf Club was considering implementing a local rule for the Masters that would prohibit players from leaving the flagstick in the hole while putting. Under the new rules that became effective January 1, it is no longer a penalty if a ball played from the putting green strikes the flagstick.
    Player reaction to the new rule is mixed.



    Now, we all know that the Masters is “a tradition unlike any other” in many ways. The club has a long history of controlling virtually every detail of the tournament. For decades, they restricted television coverage to the back nine, and banned Gary McCord from the CBS broadcasting team for referring to “body bags” around the “bikini-waxed” greens. “Patrons” (never use the term “spectators”) are prohibited from carrying cell phones and may not solicit autographs on the course or (God forbid) run between holes. Caddies are still required to wear the traditional white jumpsuits.



    So when reports surfaced that Augusta National was considering a local rule prohibiting putting with the flagstick in the hole, observers took it as just another effort to preserve the unique traditions of the Masters. Putt with the flagstick in the hole? You might as well uproot the azaleas and forsythia, let the caddies wear shorts, and organize raucous cheering sections at Amen Corner like the 16th hole of the Waste Management Phoenix Open.



    As it turns out, Masters chairman Fred Ridley ultimately indicated that the club would probably not adopt such a rule. “We think it’s important that there be some consistency in top championship golf, and so you can expect that the Masters tournament will look very much, if not the same, as what you’re seeing in the major championships and professional tours.”



    For the rest see this:

    https://golfcontentn...at-the-masters/
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • new2g0lfnew2g0lf Members Posts: 3,411 ✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    new2g0lf wrote:


    I was under impression local rules can be applied in the absence of USGA rules on a topic but can't not supersede existing rules. That's why clubs and Tours can specify dress codes, restrict use of golf carts or define their own course markings but they cannot change existing rules. In the case of the flag stick, the rule is written so that it's the golfers decision to leave the flag in or out prior to making a stroke but permits and recognizes both methods so I'm not sure if it's a violation of the rules for a tournament committee to remove the option.


    In order to remove the option, they would have to be able to enforce it with a penalty of some kind. This is from 8L in Committee Procedures:
    Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.


    So the Committee must not impose a penalty on something that is expressly NOT penalized under the Rules.




    Makes sense, thanks for responding with the quote from 8L.
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  • new2g0lfnew2g0lf Members Posts: 3,411 ✭✭
    edited Feb 4, 2019 10:21pm #80
    davep043 wrote:

    new2g0lf wrote:


    I was under impression local rules can be applied in the absence of USGA rules on a topic but can't not supersede existing rules. That's why clubs and Tours can specify dress codes, restrict use of golf carts or define their own course markings but they cannot change existing rules. In the case of the flag stick, the rule is written so that it's the golfers decision to leave the flag in or out prior to making a stroke but permits and recognizes both methods so I'm not sure if it's a violation of the rules for a tournament committee to remove the option.


    In order to remove the option, they would have to be able to enforce it with a penalty of some kind. This is from 8L in Committee Procedures:
    Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.


    So the Committee must not impose a penalty on something that is expressly NOT penalized under the Rules.






    [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Makes sense, thanks for responding with the quote from 8L. I'm curious then about how tournament committees impose penalties on minimalist golf tournaments where the number of clubs permitted is less than the USGA rule of 14? Is minimalist golf and other forms of is not considered a tournament played under USGA rules?[/background]
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Driver - Home Ping G410 + 9.5*   Away Ping G400 Max 10*
    Woods - XXIO 10 3W
    Hybrids - XXIO 10 3H, 4H, 5H
    Irons - Home - PXG Gen 2 0311P 5-SW   Away - Callaway Apex CF-19 5-SW
    Wedge - PXG 58* 
    Putter - Seemore Nashville mFGP2 SS Mallet Black
    Ball - KSig, TM TP5X, Snell MTB
  • widow-makerwidow-maker Members Posts: 1,616 ✭✭
    What would make anyone think that Augusta National members would move away from the Rules of Golf? Their membership is a microcosm of USGA deportment. I would think that most of them are in lockstep with the changes, and some of their members were probably part of the Rules Committee that instituted the changes. By the time the Masters arrives, people won't be talking about the rules changes much at all because everybody will be used to them.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,248 ✭✭


    What would make anyone think that Augusta National members would move away from the Rules of Golf? Their membership is a microcosm of USGA deportment. I would think that most of them are in lockstep with the changes, and some of their members were probably part of the Rules Committee that instituted the changes. By the time the Masters arrives, people won't be talking about the rules changes much at all because everybody will be used to them.


    What will we have to argue about if the rules are all set in and accepted?
  • illum1na71illum1na71 Members Posts: 309 ✭✭
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,535 ✭✭

    Vindog wrote:


    People forget that the "committee" at ANGC couldn't even handle a drop procedure correctly..




    ???? please explain.




    If they could have, they would have let Tiger off scot free.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • MudguardMudguard Members Posts: 1,267 ✭✭
    new2g0lf wrote:


    [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Makes sense, thanks for responding with the quote from 8L. I'm curious then about how tournament committees impose penalties on minimalist golf tournaments where the number of clubs permitted is less than the USGA rule of 14? Is minimalist golf and other forms of is not considered a tournament played under USGA rules?[/background]




    You can play whatever rules you like if you don't submit the card for a handicap. You could hand it in for the tournament, but if there are rules limiting the number of clubs (instead of 14) you're no longer playing under the rules of golf. If it doesn't alter your handicap, then it doesn't matter.
  • rangersgoalierangersgoalie Members Posts: 1,806 ✭✭



    Well the answer to your question is yes.

    So can we shut this thread down please....


    Not correct. The only way they can say they’re going to prohibit leaving the flag in is if they say they’re not going to play by the USGA rules. A local rule CANNOT be made about the flagstick if they’re playing by USGA rules.




    Just to be contrarian, and it’s for fun....

    But, what would happen if Augusta said we are NOT abiding by the flagstick rule, and we are still using the old lateral and regular hazard rules for the Maters only?



    What is the penalty? USGA jail? None of the participants can post their scores for handicap purposes?

    They choose to play by USGA rules. Those rules are not laws, just rules by an organization that organized itself to do this



    I just think it’s funny how it seems ironclad that anyone MUSt play by all the rules So be them said, so be them written!



    Sorry, a lot of cough syrup lately! image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    Ps Can’t see any way Augusta does not play by the rules as written, or a reason not to
  • MudguardMudguard Members Posts: 1,267 ✭✭


    Just to be contrarian, and it’s for fun....

    But, what would happen if Augusta said we are NOT abiding by the flagstick rule, and we are still using the old lateral and regular hazard rules for the Maters only?



    What is the penalty?




    There would be no penalty. The USGA would simply remove the following and apply it to another tournament like The Players (which possibly has similar perks, I haven't looked).



    A Masters win gives you a five-year exemption on the PGA Tour, and a five-year exemption into the U.S. Open, British Open and PGA Championship. You also receive an invitation to the following year’s Tournament of Champions, which takes place in Maui at the Kapaula Resort during the first week of January and is reserved only for PGA Tour winners. Oh yeah — there’s no cut in that event either.



    A Masters win is worth 600 PGA Tour FedEx Cup points, so a player will be well on his way to qualifying for the BMW Championship and Tour Championship at the end of the season — two more tournaments with no cut. And for players hoping to make this year’s Ryder Cup team, points-earning power is doubled at the Masters and other major championships.



    The 100 world ranking points he gets for winning can easily catapult him into the rankings’ elite zone — meaning invitations to World Golf Championships, where there is no cut and thus, a continued flow of money. (Regular PGA Tour and European Tour event winners are generally awarded between 40 and 70 world ranking points, depending on the strength of the field.)
  • rangersgoalierangersgoalie Members Posts: 1,806 ✭✭
    Well, the Usga has no say on the 5 year exemption on pga tour or the world rankings.

    Tournament of champions and Players Championship either as they are pga tour controlled.

    The Usga has no say in world rankings points or pga tour exemptions



    If the R and A and UsGA want to get rid of the exemption for their majors, they could.



    Of course the pga tour could also drop those two events from being official money and wins if we want to escalate the pissing contests.

    And the PGA could decide to write their own rules of golf that the PGA TOUr could choose to use, basically putting a torpedo in the side of the Usga



    All absurd, almost as absurd as the Augusta National not getting in lockstep with the Usga rules as written, which is why I said it was all in fun
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,450 ✭✭


    And the PGA could decide to write their own rules of golf that the PGA TOUr could choose to use, basically putting a torpedo in the side of the USGA




    “Karsten filed a $100 million antitrust suit, and the PGA Tour responding by filing a $100 million countersuit. The case had been scheduled to go to trial April 20 in U.S. district court in Phoenix.



    As part of the agreement, the Tour agreed to drop its ban on Ping clubs, which had never been enforced because of a court injunction against the action. The Tour also agreed to acknowledge that the United States Golf Association is the principal rule-making body of golf.”



    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1993-04-15/sports/9304150820_1_tour-karsten-golf-association







  • lowheellowheel LOWHEEL Members Posts: 6,248 ✭✭
    edited Feb 5, 2019 7:10am #90
    They can and they should, ridiculous rule to begin with
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,535 ✭✭


    Well, the Usga has no say on the 5 year exemption on pga tour or the world rankings.

    Tournament of champions and Players Championship either as they are pga tour controlled.

    The Usga has no say in world rankings points or pga tour exemptions



    If the R and A and UsGA want to get rid of the exemption for their majors, they could.



    Of course the pga tour could also drop those two events from being official money and wins if we want to escalate the pissing contests.

    And the PGA could decide to write their own rules of golf that the PGA TOUr could choose to use, basically putting a torpedo in the side of the Usga



    All absurd, almost as absurd as the Augusta National not getting in lockstep with the Usga rules as written, which is why I said it was all in fun




    I have to doubt that the OWGR would award points for an event not played in accordance with the Rules of Golf. Even with all the Pomp and Pageantry of The Masters.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
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