Increasing apex of ball flight with irons

Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
Trying to increase the apex of ball flight with my irons and would like to know what are the driving forces to do that.



So without flipping and adding loft at impact what increases ball flight (apex), is it swing speed, could my angle of attack be too steep, not enough spin, open face angle at impact, height of hands at top of backswing, downswing plane........



I know there could be a combination of many things but welcome the thoughts.



I am around a 0 index, 105 driver swing speed, 85-86 with a 6 iron -3 to -4 AOA with 6 iron



I don't want to give away my current apex, but want to know the variables that I will then work on.



I have access to Trackman.



Thanks in advance
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Comments

  • ksgolfcoachksgolfcoach Director of Instruction at Firekeeper Golf Course Members Posts: 734 ✭✭
    It’s tough to answer without more information, especially launch angle, spin and angle of descent. Ball speed is the primary factor, launch angle is another factor for sure but I would never tell you to try and increase it without knowing all your numbers. With your swing speed, 75 feet or higher would be fine. May I ask why you don’t want to give your current apex?
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,236 ClubWRX
    In for the potential answers.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Ping Forged 52°, ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭


    It's tough to answer without more information, especially launch angle, spin and angle of descent. Ball speed is the primary factor, launch angle is another factor for sure but I would never tell you to try and increase it without knowing all your numbers. With your swing speed, 75 feet or higher would be fine. May I ask why you don't want to give your current apex?




    Launch angle is 15.5 - 16.5 I think

    Spin is mid 4,000s to 5200 (that I think is low)

    Apex is 75-85



    I want to get the apex to 90 and increase the spin, but maybe at my 86 swing speed that isn't possible.

    I am working on increasing that from a physical perspective but I am sure my sequencing needs a lot of work too.

    Also my hands are not high enough at the top of the backswing, should probably shorten the backswing.

    I play a Pro V1x (pre 2018 version)
  • ksgolfcoachksgolfcoach Director of Instruction at Firekeeper Golf Course Members Posts: 734 ✭✭



    It's tough to answer without more information, especially launch angle, spin and angle of descent. Ball speed is the primary factor, launch angle is another factor for sure but I would never tell you to try and increase it without knowing all your numbers. With your swing speed, 75 feet or higher would be fine. May I ask why you don't want to give your current apex?




    Launch angle is 15.5 - 16.5 I think

    Spin is mid 4,000s to 5200 (that I think is low)

    Apex is 75-85



    I want to get the apex to 90 and increase the spin, but maybe at my 86 swing speed that isn't possible.

    I am working on increasing that from a physical perspective but I am sure my sequencing needs a lot of work too.

    Also my hands are not high enough at the top of the backswing, should probably shorten the backswing.

    I play a Pro V1x (pre 2018 version)




    Are we talking about six iron? Spin is low, was this off of grass or mat and indoors or out? You’re not going to get up to 90 feet with your swing speed, and 75-85 is just fine. Have to find out why the spin is so low but hitting off a mat can do it
  • powerfade66powerfade66 Members Posts: 449
    Just read something relevant in Hank Haney’s book on Tiger. He uses a fuller throwing release in the US for higher trajectory and a condensed shorter release in The Open. Tiger only hit one driver in his 2006 win.



    The flip has become such a thing to be avoided that it gets confused with simply hitting it closer to low point or altering weight distribution which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. You don’t see as many of the long right arm finishes these days.
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,236 ClubWRX
    You need to fill us in on what kind of irons and shafts you are playing.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Ping Forged 52°, ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
  • CwebbCwebb Members Posts: 5,877 ✭✭
    What model irons and shafts are you using? It's very possible to change nothing about your swing, and get the apex up with equipment details.



    One of the details I look at in detail, is the iron designs Actual Vertical COG. If it's too high for the given player, it makes everything a struggle
  • NikeGolferTXNikeGolferTX Members Posts: 327 ✭✭
    Continue your swing to a full high finish.



    Or swing like Rory and get some increased parametric forces going.
  • Fort Worth ProFort Worth Pro Members Posts: 2,774 ✭✭
    What is the landing angle? Spin is definitely low. Could be hitting off mat or shaft. I wouldn't really want to see you launch it much higher
  • 8overpar8overpar Members Posts: 193 ✭✭


    Continue your swing to a full high finish.



    Or swing like Rory and get some increased parametric forces going.


    This works for my swing. I hit one right of right on my 16th hole of the day. Very mature (tall) stand of trees between myself and the correct fairway. 9 iron with a high (for me) finish and managed to clear the hurdle and continue my round.
    Titleist 915D3 9.5° - Aldila Rogue Silver 70-S
    Titleist 915F 15° - Aldila Rogue Silver 70-S
    Titleist 716CB - KBS Tour-S
    Titleist Vokey SM6 52/08 (F) - KBS Tour-S
    Scratch                   56/06 - KBS Tour-S
    Titleist Vokey SM6 60/04 (L) - TT Wedge flex
    CNC SS Xenon Element
    TaylorMade TP5X
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
    Cwebb wrote:


    What model irons and shafts are you using? It's very possible to change nothing about your swing, and get the apex up with equipment details.



    One of the details I look at in detail, is the iron designs Actual Vertical COG. If it's too high for the given player, it makes everything a struggle




    Taylormade 770s with C Taper lite stiff shafts.

    yes those were 6 iron numbers

    was hitting indoors off a fairly fluffy mat
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭

    Cwebb wrote:


    What model irons and shafts are you using? It's very possible to change nothing about your swing, and get the apex up with equipment details.



    One of the details I look at in detail, is the iron designs Actual Vertical COG. If it's too high for the given player, it makes everything a struggle




    Taylormade 770s with C Taper lite stiff shafts.

    yes those were 6 iron numbers

    was hitting indoors off a fairly fluffy mat






    hit some shots with 790s with same c taper lite stiff and spin went up and apex a little higher, I guess that's the easy answer, change irons
  • ksgolfcoachksgolfcoach Director of Instruction at Firekeeper Golf Course Members Posts: 734 ✭✭
    C-taper are meant to keep the ball down and the spin down. Also, I just don’t believe TrackMan, or any radar, indoors. Find a way to hit some outside on grass before you start changing things
  • jakenlson0311jakenlson0311 Members Posts: 122 ✭✭


    C-taper are meant to keep the ball down and the spin down. Also, I just don’t believe TrackMan, or any radar, indoors. Find a way to hit some outside on grass before you start changing things


    This is incorrect. The C-Taper lite is designed for mid launch low spin. The regular C-taper was low, low, still There are defiantly higher launching shafts out there.
    Taylormade M5 Pro White 70x
    Taylormade M5 rocket Pro White 70x
    Taylormade P790 3 iron tour prototype
    Taylormade P730 4-pw $-taper 130x
    Taylormade MG 50 54
    Taylormade High toe 58
    Taylormade Spider tour Black.
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,545 ClubWRX
    The P770s and P790s have about the same VCoG so you won't see much difference there due to that clubhead design feature. I just did an iron shaft fitting at CC. My numbers with the P790 were 76 mph, low 4000s spin, and apex in the low 70s so clubhead speed is not holding you back. The shaft was a KBS Tour. I am a sweeper and generally have a low AoA (couple degrees down). If they ever email my numbers to me I will post here.
    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
    3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
    Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
    Sand Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM7 54/08 M Grind w/KBS Tour R-Flex
    Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM6 58/04 L Grind w/TT Wedge Flex
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Mid Slim 2.0
    Ball: Titleist AVX in yellow
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭


    C-taper are meant to keep the ball down and the spin down. Also, I just don't believe TrackMan, or any radar, indoors. Find a way to hit some outside on grass before you start changing things




    KS

    Thanks, yeah tough to get on TM on a grass range. The apex isn't hurting my regular play as the greens aren't super firm, however in tournament golf it could when I play away, hence the goal to increase the flight. I know I need to get my shoulder plane more vertical than its flat position right now and I think that will help. I know because for short periods of time I get it right and the flight does increase, but then I slip back into old habits. If I could work out how i'd post a recent driver swing video and you can see what I mean = hands very low at top of backswing.
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭


    The P770s and P790s have about the same VCoG so you won't see much difference there due to that clubhead design feature. I just did an iron shaft fitting at CC. My numbers with the P790 were 76 mph, low 4000s spin, and apex in the low 70s so clubhead speed is not holding you back. The shaft was a KBS Tour. I am a sweeper and generally have a low AoA (couple degrees down). If they ever email my numbers to me I will post here.






    Thanks for the info. I was considering switching to the 790s (buddy would give me a good deal) but I got a handful of rockets with them where the distance control was hard so I am skeptical. The problem I have found with the high launch iron shafts in the past is that they have been lighter in weight and that has affected my timing.

    I think the real issues are my shoulder plane/tilt and left hand rotation down to the ground at impact is lacking still. so will work on that.
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
    Anyone who knows how to post a video please PM me
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,236 ClubWRX
    After reading all the posts, I think you might be looking to change something when there really isn't anything wrong. Maybe you could find a way to increase the clubhead speed, but I would be vary wary of "fixing" your swing. Likely the easiest/safest method to increase your apex, is to find a club head design that you like that increases the launch angle (keeping everything else the same).



    Upload a video to a website and then paste the url link into a post.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Ping Forged 52°, ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,545 ClubWRX


    The P770s and P790s have about the same VCoG so you won't see much difference there due to that clubhead design feature. I just did an iron shaft fitting at CC. My numbers with the P790 were 76 mph, low 4000s spin, and apex in the low 70s so clubhead speed is not holding you back. The shaft was a KBS Tour. I am a sweeper and generally have a low AoA (couple degrees down). If they ever email my numbers to me I will post here.


    Here are my shaft fitting numbers from CC yesterday. Took out the obvious clankers.



    6iTM P790 kbs tour

    CHS BS SF Spin Carry Total Launch SS Apex Land. Ang.

    Mph Mph Rpm Yds Yds Deg Ft Ft Deg

    1 75.1 106.2 1.42 4043 155.7 172.1 18.3 10.9R 71 39.6

    2 76.3 107.1 1.4 4075 157.3 173.6 18.3 22.7R 72 40

    3 75.3 106.8 1.42 4270 155.6 171.4 17.9 24.3R 71 39.8

    4 75.9 107.4 1.41 4309 156.5 172.2 17.7 12.1R 71 39.8

    5 76 106.4 1.4 3853 156 174 17.9 1.2L 68 38.4

    6 75.8 107.1 1.41 4188 156.5 172.6 17.8 8.9R 70 39.6
    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
    3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
    Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
    Sand Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM7 54/08 M Grind w/KBS Tour R-Flex
    Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM6 58/04 L Grind w/TT Wedge Flex
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Mid Slim 2.0
    Ball: Titleist AVX in yellow
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
    edited Feb 12, 2019 2:13pm #22
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,236 ClubWRX


    I see Monte is lurking so I will defer any comments to him as why not get the best info.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Ping Forged 52°, ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
    Socrates wrote:



    I see Monte is lurking so I will defer any comments to him as why not get the best info.




    Be gentle people image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • starsail85starsail85 Members Posts: 4,806 ✭✭
    Weaken your lofts



    If you still can’t get it up , go to the doctor
    Mizuno ST190G atmos 6s
    Mizuno MP18 2fh / PX 6.0
    Mizuno MP18 3-Pw/ PX 6.0
    Mizuno S18 5310+5812/PX 6.0
    Ping TR Anser 1966/ 34”

    Ball - pro v1x
    Grips - Crossline cord

    Lofts 18 , 21.5, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41, 45, 49, 53, 58
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,236 ClubWRX

    Socrates wrote:



    I see Monte is lurking so I will defer any comments to him as why not get the best info.




    Be gentle people image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    Kinda flat. Okay, really flat, but it works. I'll assume the 0 hcp isn't fake news. You might be in for a world of hurt trying to change things just to get a higher ball flight. I would recommend a move to Texas and you will be a killer in the wind.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Ping Forged 52°, ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
    0 isn’t fake news, I know my limitations and + handicap putter. Used the 790s again today and they look like there making a difference.
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭
    edited Feb 9, 2019 8:41pm #28
    Have you tried simply moving to a higher spin ball? Pro v1x is low spin. Regular pro v1 may Apex higher by spinning more.
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
    Using a pro V1x pre 2018 version right now. The 790s seem to be making a difference with that ball
  • Ray JacksonRay Jackson Members Posts: 1,083 ✭✭
    I will get back on Trackman with the 790s after another round and study the spin numbers. Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I will also work on that backswing shoulder plane and post another video.
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegClubWRX Posts: 9,236 ClubWRX
    getitdaily wrote:


    Have you tried simply moving to a higher spin ball? Pro v1x is low spin. Regular pro v1 may Apex higher by spinning more.


    You should visit the Titleist site and you will see that you have that backwards.

    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Cobra F8 5-6 Fwy at 18.5° Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Ping Forged 52°, ES 56º and ES 60º
    Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.5"
    MCC Align Midsize
    Moving to the bench:
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"

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