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I’m giving up Blades... sort of...

245

Comments

  • MelloYelloMelloYello Advanced Members Posts: 2,900 ✭✭


    That's sort of my predicament except often times my shots off the toe go the right shape and direct I am looking for but lose 10-15% distance. For me it's not a conversation of going to forgiving irons just blindly thinking I'm going to get help, it's about me going to irons with more "tech" in them that have purpose-built weight distribution that will benefit my particular misses. Which I think is the REAL conversation people need to have when they talk "forgiveness" -- will this club "forgive" my misses?




    Maybe try the new Titleist 718 CB? They've stuck a tungsten weight out in the toe of their normal CB. They're claiming it's as stable as some of the previous AP2s which is pretty impressive.
    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.50)
    Fairway: TaylorMade RBZ Black (16.50)

    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (3-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52.12 (F) / 56.14 (F) / 60.10 (S)
    Putter: Odyssey O-Works 2-Ball Red
  • Big BenBig Ben Advanced Members Posts: 8,896 ✭✭
    I believe a players CB has all the attributes of a MB with a little more forgiveness. I swear I would convert to a full GI iron if the turf interaction wasn’t so different. Because I’ve grown up on small players style irons I just can’t make clean contact with the wider soles on tight lies. Also, I can’t manipulate the head nearly as effectively in thick rough. Each style iron has its benefits and drawbacks. I say play what makes you happy and for me that’s reflected on my scorecard. BB
    Irons: 19' Cobra CB's
    Drivers: Titleist TS3 & Cobra F9
    Fairway: Titleist 917F2
    Hybrid: A-Grind
    2 iron: Ping Rapture
    Wedges: Ping Gorge 2.0 Stealth's
    Putter: Evnroll 9.1
    Balls: ProV1
  • Ripken08Ripken08 Advanced Members Posts: 4,236 ✭✭
    Chew70 wrote:


    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.




    +1. Forgiveness is overrated. Shoot the same with anything.
  • mmack067mmack067 Advanced Members Posts: 679 ✭✭
    This is exactly where I am this year. I'm going for a fitting in two weeks and I've come to the same conclusion that I want to move to a more forgiving iron just for those ones where I catch it a hair thin or a bit toward the toe. I'd rather retain a bit more ball speed on those misses and hopefully end up on front edge of the green rather than catch the bunker on those.



    I'm actually really interested in doing some sort of combo set so that the short irons are still visually appealing. I'm excited to see if what can be done with Ping, Mizuno, or Srixon combo sets.
    Ping G400 LST - Copperhead 70TX
    '16 M1 15˚- Rogue Silver 70X
    TaylorMade UDI 20˚- Recoil 110 F5
    TaylorMade RSI TP 4i, Miura MC-501 5-PW - X100
    Vokey SM7 50F, 54S, 60M - S400
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Red Sightline

    Twitter-icon.png  lDLcKyO.png?1  


  • cav5cav5 Advanced Members Posts: 320 ✭✭
    I kind of did the same. Went from baby blades to MP69s. Mostly because I hated the way the PW looked in the baby blades. I like chrome tho and the longer blade length.



    Clubs are weird, the whole COG thing I don't get because I feel like you need to take into account the entire club. I dunno..
    M5 9.0 Tensei Pro White 70TX
    M5 17.5 KK XTS 80


    MP69 PX 6.5
    GLIDE2.0 46,50,54,60* PX 6.0
    NC Portofino
    TP5
  • chisagchisag Advanced Members Posts: 2,893 ✭✭


    I wish I could get myself around to that way of thinking. I plan on getting fit for the new Srixon irons in a few weeks and my current thoughts pre-fitting are a set of Z-Forged blades from 5-P and a Z-785 3i and 4i (bending the 4i 1° weak to blend the set a little better). I'd actually probably do just fine, if not objectively slightly better with the added forgiveness of just doing the 785s in 3-P and maybe just loft matching them to the Z-Forged specs (basically 1° weak in 4-8) but I just love the way a blade looks and feels and that little less offset. I rationalize it to myself that I don't play competitively really (though I want to start getting into some local am tournaments this year) and I should just play what I like best within reason and certainly as a scratch golfer the difference is probably very small between a blade and a players CB in the mid and short irons anyway. But I'm certain there are shots here and there where I would get more out of that slight cavity, toe shots like you say which do creep up on me as well from time to time. Fighting ego is hard in this game sometimes and I'm afraid for me it's usually a losing battle pretty often.






    ... One of my favorite WRX posts and very well said! Ionically as an older player, there were no players irons and game improvement irons were butt ugly so MB's were really the only choice. They worked well with balata balls as well. But once they started making forged players CB's I started combing MB short irons and CB mid/long irons. Then finally made the jump to all CB and they look much better to my eye than MB's. Mostly because I associate poor contact being more playable with CB's and poor contact being more penal with MB's. My miss tends to be slightly low and on my bad back days out on the toe. P790's perform really well with those slight misses and look good 1* weak... yet I keep looking at the P760's because the one thing I don't love about the 790's is the thicker top line, even though I know it is there to facilitate the foam. So I guess there is still some ego involved in my decisions too. And for the first time in at least 10 years, looking at those new Srixon Z Forged made me think ...
    Cobra F9 Tour Length ... Atmos Blue TS 65s
    Cobra F9 15.5* ... Atmos Blue TS 75s
    Cobra F6 Baffler ... Kuro Kage Black 75s
    TaylorMade UDi 18* 2 iron... HZRDUS Black 85hy
    4-pw TaylorMade P790 ... Recoil Prototype 95's
    SM6 52* F Grind /SM7 D Grind 58* ... Recoil 110s
    Bobby Grace 6330 ... 33.5"
  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 Advanced Members Posts: 588 ✭✭
    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I’m between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 Advanced Members Posts: 588 ✭✭

    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I’m between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I’m having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I’m opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don’t get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it’s too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I’m not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We’ll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • AB1981AB1981 Members Posts: 16
    Chew70 wrote:
    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.
    What he said...I have played everything from Ping G series to blades the last couple years and I don't score any different with any of them. Currently playing Cobra Fly Z+. But I guess in fairness my home course is only 6600 all the way back so I hit a lot of wedges, my outlook might be different if I was regularly playing bigger tracks.
  • Nard_SNard_S Advanced Members Posts: 3,013 ✭✭
    AB1981 wrote:

    Chew70 wrote:
    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.
    What he said...I have played everything from Ping G series to blades the last couple years and I don't score any different with any of them. Currently playing Cobra Fly Z+. But I guess in fairness my home course is only 6600 all the way back so I hit a lot of wedges, my outlook might be different if I was regularly playing bigger tracks.




    Agree, my course is 6600 from back also. There's maybe 2 shots on 2 holes where a GI long iron might be of significance. Metals, wedge and putter account for 2/3 to 3/4 of all shots. Of the rest, 1/2 are at least #8 or shorter. People play what drives their passion. If it's knocking every tenth of the index , great, it's valid. If it's things that blades uniquely deliver to the user, it's valid also. It's a game after all and nothing more. Shaft profile and weight configuration will yield better gains than any dance of grams that head design offers, so these discussions come off like adults in a Charlie Brown episode to me....wah wah woh, wah. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭


    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I’m between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I’m having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I’m opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don’t get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it’s too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I’m not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We’ll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    I wish you well op. But having just completed that task i can tell you. It still comes down to 2 things. Driver ( tee ball) and putter. Mostly putter. According to my stats. Iron game hasn’t changed by any measure. It was already good. I could play any iron from blades to g700 and I don’t think my iron stays would change. By change I mean averaging hitting 2 plus more greens a round , or vastly improved proximity. That’s about the only 2 stats that matter with an iron. Now of you find something you like the fligh tand feel of. By all means go with it. But don’t expect them to lower your scores. I did and was disappointed greatly. Time better spent on hitting the tee ball farther and straighter and making putts.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
    Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • manima1manima1 Advanced Members Posts: 677 ✭✭


    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    Think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how easy that U85/2 will be to hit. They are effortless and perform excellently on toe misses as well.



    Great choice in the 785s. Play them up to the 4i and don't think twice, no need to go 585 or U85 at the 4i spot.
    '16 M2 8.5 tour issued - Kuro Kage Dual Core 80tx tipped 1"
    '16 M2HL 16.8 tour issued deep faced - Fujikura 8.3 TS
    zU45 18 degree - S400
    z745 4-9 - S400
    SM6 46.08F - S400 Chrome
    SM6 50.08F - S400 Steel Gray
    SM7 54.10S - S400 Raw
    SM5 60.08M - Wedge Flex Raw Black
    Odyssey Tank Cruiser V-line
  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 Advanced Members Posts: 588 ✭✭



    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    I wish you well op. But having just completed that task i can tell you. It still comes down to 2 things. Driver ( tee ball) and putter. Mostly putter. According to my stats. Iron game hasn't changed by any measure. It was already good. I could play any iron from blades to g700 and I don't think my iron stays would change. By change I mean averaging hitting 2 plus more greens a round , or vastly improved proximity. That's about the only 2 stats that matter with an iron. Now of you find something you like the fligh tand feel of. By all means go with it. But don't expect them to lower your scores. I did and was disappointed greatly. Time better spent on hitting the tee ball farther and straighter and making putts.




    I'm a great driver of the ball and decent putter. I am also making efforts to improve my putting in 2019 by utilizing some different putting styles than conventional.



    Like I said, the goal isn't just: switch to CB's = lower scores. There's a lot of factors. I know what my miss is with my irons, and I am switching to a profile that might benefit that miss. By playing to that miss I might improve my proximity to pin by a small margin, and my GIR by a small margin. But both of those mean maybe more putts for birdie and maybe closer putts for birdie. If over the course of a year my index gets back into the +4 or better range, then I'd probably count it as a success.
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 Advanced Members Posts: 588 ✭✭
    manima1 wrote:



    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    Think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how easy that U85/2 will be to hit. They are effortless and perform excellently on toe misses as well.



    Great choice in the 785s. Play them up to the 4i and don't think twice, no need to go 585 or U85 at the 4i spot.




    Thanks for the reassurance! I think I'll be just fine with them up to a 4i, and don't particularly love the idea of switching to a different iron in the 4i and losing that good feel. But this experiment is for the betterment of the game, so we'll see.



    I think too I'll like the ZU85. I've always been very strong with DI off the tee which comes into play for me very often. The only shot I need the ZU85 to do is hold a green well enough to make it viable as a 2nd-shot Par 5 club, which theoretically it should do no problem. But I think (for me) the ZU85 type club has more benefits across all facets of my game than a 5W or hybrid does.
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • BottleCapBottleCap Advanced Members Posts: 1,206 ✭✭
    edited February 19
    Chew70 wrote:


    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.




    I disagree with you.



    The forgiveness doesn't have to do anything with the strike, it comes before the strike. I've noticed most people i play with have an under plane inside takeaway and this leads to fat shots, may not be 6 inches behind the ball, most of the 3 to 10 handicaps seem to hit a half inch behind the ball. The GI models have a wider sole to help overcome the fat shot.



    These same guys will eventually move to graphite shafts because of elbow pain from fat shots.
    Taylormade M3 440 Tensei CK Pro Blue 70S
    Titleist 917F3 15 GD TourAD BB 8S
    Mizuno MP-18 3-PW DG S400
    Vokey SM6 54S and 60K
    Cameron Newport 2 CT
    Bridgestone Tour B XS
  • mmack067mmack067 Advanced Members Posts: 679 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    Chew70 wrote:


    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.




    I disagree with you.



    The forgiveness doesn't have to do anything with the strike, it comes before the strike. I've noticed most people i play with have an under plane inside takeaway and this leads to fat shots, may not be 6 inches behind the ball, most of the 3 to 10 handicaps seem to hit a half inch behind the ball. The GI models have a wider sole to help overcome the fat shot.



    These same guys will eventually move to graphite shafts because of elbow pain from fat shots.




    image/WTF.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':WTF:' />
    Ping G400 LST - Copperhead 70TX
    '16 M1 15˚- Rogue Silver 70X
    TaylorMade UDI 20˚- Recoil 110 F5
    TaylorMade RSI TP 4i, Miura MC-501 5-PW - X100
    Vokey SM7 50F, 54S, 60M - S400
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Red Sightline

    Twitter-icon.png  lDLcKyO.png?1  


  • TexasRedTexasRed ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 83 ClubWRX
    Nothing wrong with playing a split set, I wanted blades in 7-PW and CB in 4-6 myself. A little forgiveness on the longer shots in nice.
  • chisagchisag Advanced Members Posts: 2,893 ✭✭
    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.
    Cobra F9 Tour Length ... Atmos Blue TS 65s
    Cobra F9 15.5* ... Atmos Blue TS 75s
    Cobra F6 Baffler ... Kuro Kage Black 75s
    TaylorMade UDi 18* 2 iron... HZRDUS Black 85hy
    4-pw TaylorMade P790 ... Recoil Prototype 95's
    SM6 52* F Grind /SM7 D Grind 58* ... Recoil 110s
    Bobby Grace 6330 ... 33.5"
  • BottleCapBottleCap Advanced Members Posts: 1,206 ✭✭
    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.
    Taylormade M3 440 Tensei CK Pro Blue 70S
    Titleist 917F3 15 GD TourAD BB 8S
    Mizuno MP-18 3-PW DG S400
    Vokey SM6 54S and 60K
    Cameron Newport 2 CT
    Bridgestone Tour B XS
  • mmack067mmack067 Advanced Members Posts: 679 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?
    Ping G400 LST - Copperhead 70TX
    '16 M1 15˚- Rogue Silver 70X
    TaylorMade UDI 20˚- Recoil 110 F5
    TaylorMade RSI TP 4i, Miura MC-501 5-PW - X100
    Vokey SM7 50F, 54S, 60M - S400
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Red Sightline

    Twitter-icon.png  lDLcKyO.png?1  


  • BiggErnBiggErn Advanced Members Posts: 2,001 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:
    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So at least look cool?
  • BottleCapBottleCap Advanced Members Posts: 1,206 ✭✭
    mmack067 wrote:

    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?




    If you have a guy that picked up golf in his late 20s, hitting a low 140 yard hook with a 6 iron, does that matter?
    Taylormade M3 440 Tensei CK Pro Blue 70S
    Titleist 917F3 15 GD TourAD BB 8S
    Mizuno MP-18 3-PW DG S400
    Vokey SM6 54S and 60K
    Cameron Newport 2 CT
    Bridgestone Tour B XS
  • manima1manima1 Advanced Members Posts: 677 ✭✭




    I think too I'll like the ZU85. I've always been very strong with DI off the tee which comes into play for me very often. The only shot I need the ZU85 to do is hold a green well enough to make it viable as a 2nd-shot Par 5 club, which theoretically it should do no problem. But I think (for me) the ZU85 type club has more benefits across all facets of my game than a 5W or hybrid does.




    When I first put my U45 in play, it actually launched too high for me especially with the stock lightweight nippon shaft. The S400 to match my irons has definitely helped bring the flight down, but these things were made to launch. I have to work to flight it down - so I don't suspect you'll have any problems getting them to hold a green.



    The only downside for me is they are an absolute no-go out of any partially tough lie in the rough. The wide sole just doesn't allow for clean enough contact and has a tendency to get caught up and close down on the ball. Otherwise it's been a godsend in that spot, coming from someone that can't keep hybrids from turning left.
    '16 M2 8.5 tour issued - Kuro Kage Dual Core 80tx tipped 1"
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    z745 4-9 - S400
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Advanced Members Posts: 2,001 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:
    mmack067 wrote:

    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?




    If you have a guy that picked up golf in his late 20s, hitting a low 140 yard hook with a 6 iron, does that matter?






    Yes, if you’re absolutely terrible nothing will help.
  • mmack067mmack067 Advanced Members Posts: 679 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    mmack067 wrote:






    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?




    If you have a guy that picked up golf in his late 20s, hitting a low 140 yard hook with a 6 iron, does that matter?




    For the absolute worst of the golfing population, sure, maybe clubs don't make too much of a difference. For everyone else I'd argue that increased forgiveness on off-center hits, improved ball speed, and launch conditions that modern clubs can provide will be beneficial.



    Some people might only gain a fraction of a stroke per round with equipment changes, but over the course of a season or longer that will add up and have a positive impact on their game.
    Ping G400 LST - Copperhead 70TX
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  • chisagchisag Advanced Members Posts: 2,893 ✭✭
    ... We are not talking bad swings with center contact. As an example, a fairly repeatable swing that comes over the top, casting the club head can result in toe hits and/or low on the face. SGI and GI irons can make these shots much more playable and more importantly, make the game much more enjoyable.
    Cobra F9 Tour Length ... Atmos Blue TS 65s
    Cobra F9 15.5* ... Atmos Blue TS 75s
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    Bobby Grace 6330 ... 33.5"
  • BottleCapBottleCap Advanced Members Posts: 1,206 ✭✭
    chisag wrote:


    ... We are not talking bad swings with center contact. As an example, a fairly repeatable swing that comes over the top, casting the club head can result in toe hits and/or low on the face. SGI and GI irons can make these shots much more playable and more importantly, make the game much more enjoyable.




    I think fixing that swing would make the game more enjoyable
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  • mmack067mmack067 Advanced Members Posts: 679 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... We are not talking bad swings with center contact. As an example, a fairly repeatable swing that comes over the top, casting the club head can result in toe hits and/or low on the face. SGI and GI irons can make these shots much more playable and more importantly, make the game much more enjoyable.




    I think fixing that swing would make the game more enjoyable




    Nobody is suggesting otherwise!



    Leverage improved tech where you can to improve your misses and also work on swing mechanics to reduce the frequency and severity of those misses.
    Ping G400 LST - Copperhead 70TX
    '16 M1 15˚- Rogue Silver 70X
    TaylorMade UDI 20˚- Recoil 110 F5
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    edited February 19
    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that’s very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say “ well I put a bad move on that one “ and you move on.



    So you think. “ if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too “. What you don’t account for is two things. You don’t get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It’s supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what’s the point ?



    It’s a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB’s and hit them well for a long time doesn’t change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I’m telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I’m speaking from an informed position ( for me ).
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
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    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
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    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • dunndunn Advanced Members Posts: 6,354 ✭✭
    edited February 19
    AB1981 wrote:

    Chew70 wrote:
    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.
    What he said...I have played everything from Ping G series to blades the last couple years and I don't score any different with any of them. Currently playing Cobra Fly Z+. But I guess in fairness my home course is only 6600 all the way back so I hit a lot of wedges, my outlook might be different if I was regularly playing bigger tracks.
    good point, my track is similar.....3 or 4 holes are deep but alot of em short.....I am on ocean so air bit heavier....I play em out ego, sure they feel better but there really isnt an advantage for me....players irons have gotten so good and look is fantastic really not much different looking than most MBs......I still pull em out every once un awhile tho....perception for golfer is how many shots do you have to give back.....if you have alot doesnt really matter, the less you have to work with more every one counts....1 or 2 shots to me is a BIG deal



    Short game is another factor, have a good one and missing greens all day isnt too bad....bad short game and mishitting MBs all day is long day



    If you dont care tho about any of that fire away with baby blades baby!
  • gators78gators78 ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 3,901 ClubWRX
    Rock the shovels man, there's a club for people that aren't ashamed of huge top lines, miles of offset, and big *** irons, Kenny Perry is the President, Mark Calcavecchia is VP, Freddy is the Treasurer, KJ Choi is the Secretary.
    G400 Max
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  • collje26collje26 Advanced Members Posts: 516 ✭✭
    I’ve tried to convince myself that the player cb’s are more forgiving than the mb’s however I always go back to the mb’s because I don’t see that much. Is there really something significant say Callaway forged 18 cb vs the mb? I gamer the mp 18’s prior and had a combo of the sc/mb and the difference was minimal.
    Ping G400 Max 9 Tensei Pro Orange 70tx
    Ping G400 14.5 Tensei Pro Blue 80tx
    Ping G 17.5 Rombax P95x
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    Callaway Apex MB Raw 4-P Modus 3 120tx
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  • andrieddleandrieddle Advanced Members Posts: 1,793 ✭✭
    The Z785 just picked up 2 wins this past weekend, so if that's any indication, you made the right move.
    [font=comic sans ms,cursive]Cobra Fly Z+ (11)
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    [/font]
  • avguyavguy Replacement Player Advanced Members Posts: 1,045 ✭✭
    edited February 20
    Comparing modern MB forged irons now vs. modern GI cavity cast irons is something I have very current results with...



    Going back to 2008, when I finally upped rounds to over 10-12X/YR. (despite living in a 12mos. golf season), I have played 6 sets of MBs. As a curiosity and perhaps thinking I should try one of the hi-tech. lines (plus go lighter in shaft weights), I went into a new set of TM M5s in Modus 105.



    I've only played the irons since 2009 as 5-PW, but have used shaft wts. of 108 up to 128G in the MB sets.



    After a couple of range outings and one round, I can attest that mostly the GI versions by TM offer me no more forgiveness despite likely much higher MPF scores and simple geometry. They are nice clubs - I will not bash them. But for feel and heft into the ball, I've fallen back in what I get on my shots. Due to more aggressive lofts, my 9 in TM goes almost as far as an 8 in my past MBs. But I was not seeking distance.



    Could be the wider soles or not having recent history in shafts below 115G - but everything feels too light, and I am hating anything thinned. Prior thinned in a forged MB would not be so ugly - and were far less often!



    Good thing is that I kept one set of MBs in a shaft wt. closer to these (sig) in the Razr MBs - fave of mine for 7 years. If I want to keep 3 sets around, which is the max I would, I actually will keep close to this shaft wt, and get another "almost" MB. Thinking of TM P760 - their 8-PW are pure solid forged heads with progressive Speed foam from 7 and up.



    One of my past instructors always said he felt the MB was like a sledgehammer into the ball, a cavity more like a frying pan. The M5s are not bad feeling, but just too different right now after more than a decade of forged MBs. I think a couple of mos. into a season of mixing my rotation with M5 and the Callies and perhaps P760 things could even out in my results if I get used to feels.



    I was at one time rotating between Mizuno MP-32 (128G shaft), MP-69 (113G), and Wilson Staff True Blades (115G) with no detectable differences in feel, flight, or fun. FWIW, I play a pedestrian 158yds. 7, normally a draw.
    BAG ONE:
    D-Titleist 917 D2  or 910 D2
    3-TM RBZ ts
    H-Titleist 915 H1 17, Titleist 816  H1 21, Bridgestone Precept ECU 25
    I - TM M5 5-PW
    W- Mizuno 52, Vokey SM6 58
    P-Bellum Winmore Midi  787
    BAG TWO:
    D-Srixon Z355 
    3-TM R11ti
    H-TM 2.0 SF 18 & 21, Cobra AC 25
    I - TM P790 5-PW
    W- Mizuno 53, & 58
    P-Guerin TS Black 370
  • balls_deepballs_deep Advanced Members Posts: 360 ✭✭
    edited February 20

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that's very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say " well I put a bad move on that one " and you move on.



    So you think. " if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too ". What you don't account for is two things. You don't get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It's supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what's the point ?



    It's a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB's and hit them well for a long time doesn't change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I'm telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I'm speaking from an informed position ( for me ).






    Yeah but we're not talking about him moving from MB to GI here though. I agree with your post to a point and certainly if he's maintained a + with blades I wouldn't be wanting to change too much. After all, most of us here are just amateurs and shooting or breaking par is kind of the point of golf (some just want to hit good shots and drink beers and I get that - for me it's improving my scores) so making changes once you're doing that seems scary to me. Back to my original point though, the 785 is not a chunky iron by any means. PGA guys are playing it and have now won with it. I believe that over a season I would probably notice a difference in my scores if I was playing a full set of MB vs my AP2. I'm a good ball striker but there is a reason you don't see every PGA player using pure MBs. You don't give up much in the way of feel or workability but you gain the advantage of having that shot that is 1/8 inch outside of the sweet spot toe side getting to the green. As I said earlier in this thread, I had a par 3 I was hitting an 8 iron into that felt toey but was pin high to 6 feet. Looked at the mark on the face and there is no way it would have been where it was with my blades as it was on the grooves but definitely out towards toe. I don't blame the club when I hit a bad shot I just think that I put a bad move on it. If I was playing Ping Gs I'd maybe be doing what you said a bit more thinking the club should save it.



    Basically, if he was moving to something super chunky I'd be asking WTF but he's going to a players club with a touch of extra help and if it means he's scrambling to save par even one less time per round it could help his scores. That's why the tour guys do it.
    Titleist 915D2 10.5 w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 60S
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:


    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that's very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say " well I put a bad move on that one " and you move on.



    So you think. " if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too ". What you don't account for is two things. You don't get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It's supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what's the point ?



    It's a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB's and hit them well for a long time doesn't change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I'm telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I'm speaking from an informed position ( for me ).






    Yeah but we're not talking about him moving from MB to GI here though. I agree with your post to a point and certainly if he's maintained a + with blades I wouldn't be wanting to change too much. After all, most of us here are just amateurs and shooting or breaking par is kind of the point of golf (some just want to hit good shots and drink beers and I get that - for me it's improving my scores) so making changes once you're doing that seems scary to me. Back to my original point though, the 785 is not a chunky iron by any means. PGA guys are playing it and have now won with it. I believe that over a season I would probably notice a difference in my scores if I was playing a full set of MB vs my AP2. I'm a good ball striker but there is a reason you don't see every PGA player using pure MBs. You don't give up much in the way of feel or workability but you gain the advantage of having that shot that is 1/8 inch outside of the sweet spot toe side getting to the green. As I said earlier in this thread, I had a par 3 I was hitting an 8 iron into that felt toey but was pin high to 6 feet. Looked at the mark on the face and there is no way it would have been where it was with my blades as it was on the grooves but definitely out towards toe. I don't blame the club when I hit a bad shot I just think that I put a bad move on it. If I was playing Ping Gs I'd maybe be doing what you said a bit more thinking the club should save it.



    Basically, if he was moving to something super chunky I'd be asking WTF but he's going to a players club with a touch of extra help and if it means he's scrambling to save par even one less time per round it could help his scores. That's why the tour guys do it.




    Well. Maybe I’m confused. Ap2 much like my i500 are GI. By any definition. There is no such thing as a players “ multi material “ cb. If it’s a welded face it’s GI. And ap2 are just that. 785 appears to be a 1 piece iron so yes. Not really any different than an mb. Just a little perimeter weight. But. Compare to say the callaway razr mb the perimeter weighting isn’t really more. Just a different name.



    785 and ap2 aren’t apples and oranges.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
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    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
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    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • balls_deepballs_deep Advanced Members Posts: 360 ✭✭

    balls_deep wrote:


    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that's very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say " well I put a bad move on that one " and you move on.



    So you think. " if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too ". What you don't account for is two things. You don't get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It's supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what's the point ?



    It's a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB's and hit them well for a long time doesn't change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I'm telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I'm speaking from an informed position ( for me ).






    Yeah but we're not talking about him moving from MB to GI here though. I agree with your post to a point and certainly if he's maintained a + with blades I wouldn't be wanting to change too much. After all, most of us here are just amateurs and shooting or breaking par is kind of the point of golf (some just want to hit good shots and drink beers and I get that - for me it's improving my scores) so making changes once you're doing that seems scary to me. Back to my original point though, the 785 is not a chunky iron by any means. PGA guys are playing it and have now won with it. I believe that over a season I would probably notice a difference in my scores if I was playing a full set of MB vs my AP2. I'm a good ball striker but there is a reason you don't see every PGA player using pure MBs. You don't give up much in the way of feel or workability but you gain the advantage of having that shot that is 1/8 inch outside of the sweet spot toe side getting to the green. As I said earlier in this thread, I had a par 3 I was hitting an 8 iron into that felt toey but was pin high to 6 feet. Looked at the mark on the face and there is no way it would have been where it was with my blades as it was on the grooves but definitely out towards toe. I don't blame the club when I hit a bad shot I just think that I put a bad move on it. If I was playing Ping Gs I'd maybe be doing what you said a bit more thinking the club should save it.



    Basically, if he was moving to something super chunky I'd be asking WTF but he's going to a players club with a touch of extra help and if it means he's scrambling to save par even one less time per round it could help his scores. That's why the tour guys do it.




    Well. Maybe I'm confused. Ap2 much like my i500 are GI. By any definition. There is no such thing as a players " multi material " cb. If it's a welded face it's GI. And ap2 are just that. 785 appears to be a 1 piece iron so yes. Not really any different than an mb. Just a little perimeter weight. But. Compare to say the callaway razr mb the perimeter weighting isn't really more. Just a different name.



    785 and ap2 aren't apples and oranges.




    Hmm I really don't think that our definitions of players irons match up. The AP2 are not blades and they do share some features with GI irons but I would never put them in that category. By your definition the 718 CB wouldn't be a players club because it has a face insert and therefore isn't a one piece forging... not buying your argument.
    Titleist 915D2 10.5 w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 60S
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    Irons TBD
    Vokey SM7 50F, 54F, and 58D w/ DG Tour Issue Onyx S400
    Bettinardi Kuchar Model 1 Armlock 42" (Testing)
    Pro V1x
  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Advanced Members Posts: 2,663 ✭✭
    went from Nike Original Blades to Nike VR Pro, Nike Vapor Pro, Srixon z945, z965....back to Nike Vapor Pro and absolutely....loving it . Good middle ground between butter knives and clumsy blades. Loved the z945s, but it was obvious it was a better club for those used to cavity backs. The sole was too wide.. z965s were phenomenal..very long..felt too beefy...vapor pro has a flick feel through the ball. Not as long, but versatile.
    Cobra LTD Pro Matrix F6M2/F7M3/Project X LZ 6.0 71g HC/ Fuji 661 III
    Cobra LTD 3/4 Kai'li 80
    Cobra LTD 4/5 Kai'li 80
    TM Mid_Rescue TP 22*
    Nike Vapor Pro Irons Modus 120x SSx2 4-pw
    RTX 3.0 50, 54, 60 Modus 125
    Machine LN M6
  • tobiasjdtobiasjd Advanced Members Posts: 423 ✭✭

    manima1 wrote:



    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    Think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how easy that U85/2 will be to hit. They are effortless and perform excellently on toe misses as well.



    Great choice in the 785s. Play them up to the 4i and don't think twice, no need to go 585 or U85 at the 4i spot.




    Thanks for the reassurance! I think I'll be just fine with them up to a 4i, and don't particularly love the idea of switching to a different iron in the 4i and losing that good feel. But this experiment is for the betterment of the game, so we'll see.



    I think too I'll like the ZU85. I've always been very strong with DI off the tee which comes into play for me very often. The only shot I need the ZU85 to do is hold a green well enough to make it viable as a 2nd-shot Par 5 club, which theoretically it should do no problem. But I think (for me) the ZU85 type club has more benefits across all facets of my game than a 5W or hybrid does.




    I don't like switching at the 4i either. But there's just no way I can get anywhere near the same kind of ball flight that I get with a hybrid. Maybe if I experimented enough with shaft options, but that can get expensive.
    Cobra King LTD Black
    Titleist 910FD 15° 3w
    Titleist 917F2 18° 5w
    Callaway Apex 4h
    PING iBlade 5 - PW
    PING Glide 50° SS
    PING Glide 2.0 Stealth 56°, 60° SS
    Bettinardi BB1
  • bodhi555bodhi555 Advanced Members Posts: 664 ✭✭
    I've had a couple of rounds this winter where I've been playing abroad so had some rentals on the way round rather than the trusty VR Pros, and I was genuinely interested to see the difference in my game. I had 2 rounds with AP3's and 3 with AP2's, all fitted with S300 shafts, so similar to my configuration at home, if not quite identical.



    Wasn't a huge fan of the feel (or lack of), but could have coped with that if there were night and day performance differences between the two, but I can honestly say there weren't. AP3's traveled as far as my VR Pros, the AP2's were a club short, and for trying to control ball flight they were less than ideal - just wanted to go straight and high. A couple of times I wanted ot hit a fade round a tree, both times the ball carried straight, and punching out of trees required going up a few clubs on the VR Pros.



    I wouldn't swap for all the tees in China, but fair play if you think it will help you enjoy the game more.
    The Blue Thunder: Nike Vapor Fly - 9.5 degree - Speeder Evolution 757X
    The Stenson: Nike Vapor Fly 3W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    The Fairway Finder: Nike Vapor Fly Pro 2 Iron - KBS C-Taper 120S Shaft
    The Blades: Nike VR Pro 4i - PW - DG S400 TI Shaft
    The Rusties: Nike Engage 50, 54 Square Sole, 58 Toe Sweep
    The Putter: Scotty Cameron California Del Mar - 34"
    Balls: Nike RZN Tour Black/Platinum, Bridgestone Tour B XS, Titleist AVX
    Bag: Sun Mountain Four Five

    Also in Rotation:

    Spare Driver: Nike Covert Tour - Kuro Kage 60X
    Fairway Woods: Nike Vapor Fly 5W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    Putters: Yonex Super A.D.X Tour Forged / Scotty Cameron Newport Oil Can / Hogan Radial P51
  • manima1manima1 Advanced Members Posts: 677 ✭✭
    tobiasjd wrote:


    I don't like switching at the 4i either. But there's just no way I can get anywhere near the same kind of ball flight that I get with a hybrid. Maybe if I experimented enough with shaft options, but that can get expensive.




    Perhaps the 7-series Srixons have a bit more "help" with the muscle/cavity to help get the ball up in a hurry than your i-blades. I'd be baggin the 3 as well however, I prefer having the driving iron 2 in that spot for added versatility at the top end.
    '16 M2 8.5 tour issued - Kuro Kage Dual Core 80tx tipped 1"
    '16 M2HL 16.8 tour issued deep faced - Fujikura 8.3 TS
    zU45 18 degree - S400
    z745 4-9 - S400
    SM6 46.08F - S400 Chrome
    SM6 50.08F - S400 Steel Gray
    SM7 54.10S - S400 Raw
    SM5 60.08M - Wedge Flex Raw Black
    Odyssey Tank Cruiser V-line
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭
    Balls deep-





    No doubt that tech is moving into all parts of the iron game. But you can’t call a spring faced iron a players anything. If it’s adding ball speed it’s game improvement. It’s not a knock. As I said. Currently playing a set myself. But we have to be honest about what is - is.



    I’ve played 2 versions of the ap2 712 and 716. They are GI . The long irons have more offset than many ping irons. The lofts are strong the face is welded on for a reason.



    People call Mb players dilusional. But this argument to me is far more dilusional than that can ever be. The players cb market has shrunk. That’s the bottom line. Mainly because theyy don’t offer much over a modern mb. That doesn’t mean we can start calling the smaller GI irons “ players cb”. Ap2 doesn’t really even have a pronounced cavity. The name doesn’t fit.



    Op may have an easier transition than I first thought. Originally I thought the Srixon iron was a forged face iron too.
    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
    Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 Advanced Members Posts: 588 ✭✭
    I think some people are confusing the nature of this thread. Also, there’s a whole spectrum of irons. It’s not so black and white that if I am not playing Blades then I am going all the way to an SGI iron.



    My main point of this thread was that there’s a lot of smart design going into the modern CB and player’s cavity irons. Think a range from Titleist CB-AP2, Z785, Apex Pro, etc..



    I know my miss, and I think a true muscleback blade isn’t playing into that miss. There are irons that have some tungsten, weight distribution, etc etc that I’ve never really given a full go to see if it will benefit my game. I usually do a split set and then go right back to Blades. So my experiment isn’t saying “I’m going to drop 5 strokes by running to G410!” No, I’m simply saying that given the infrequent but present miss that I have, I think it’s time to hang up my hat on true musclebacks and give a full season or more of player’s cavity irons a go. Just to see what, if anything, happens.



    The list of Tour players that use cavity back irons to game improvement irons is enormous compared to those that stick with true Blades. That ratio is especially true if you look at those in the Top 10, T25, etc.



    Also, forgiveness isn’t total BS. It’s why we have moved to 460cc drivers, mallet putters, etc. If you use a large driver or a mallet putter but then say forgiving irons are BS, I think that’s a bit ironic, isn’t it?
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭


    The list of Tour players that use cavity back irons to game improvement irons is enormous compared to those that stick with true Blades. That ratio is especially true if you look at those in the Top 10, T25, etc.


    I think the pros are doing this because they know the small advantage add up over time. Carrying a hazard on one slight mishit could be the difference in winning or losing. Or, saving a couple yards on distance/direction means you are putting from 10 feet closer, which has a lower expected number of shots. If you don't mishit the ball often, then I agree the amount of strokes saved per round is going to be very small. If you are just playing casually, you probably won't notice it.



    In contrast, many people here seem to only think there are 100% flushed shots and toe mishits so bad that nothing can save you. I'm nowhere near the level of player that many here are, but I think the issue is that no one vividly remembers the slight mishit that is still on the green but an extra 5-10 feet away (vs. what it could be or is with a more forgiving club).



    Honestly, I've never understood the "can't concentrate with anything but an MB," "I want the harsh feedback to improve," or "my best shots get worse with a CB," but I can't deny that these factors exist for some people.
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,232 ✭✭


    I think some people are confusing the nature of this thread. Also, there’s a whole spectrum of irons. It’s not so black and white that if I am not playing Blades then I am going all the way to an SGI iron.



    My main point of this thread was that there’s a lot of smart design going into the modern CB and player’s cavity irons. Think a range from Titleist CB-AP2, Z785, Apex Pro, etc..



    I know my miss, and I think a true muscleback blade isn’t playing into that miss. There are irons that have some tungsten, weight distribution, etc etc that I’ve never really given a full go to see if it will benefit my game. I usually do a split set and then go right back to Blades. So my experiment isn’t saying “I’m going to drop 5 strokes by running to G410!” No, I’m simply saying that given the infrequent but present miss that I have, I think it’s time to hang up my hat on true musclebacks and give a full season or more of player’s cavity irons a go. Just to see what, if anything, happens.



    The list of Tour players that use cavity back irons to game improvement irons is enormous compared to those that stick with true Blades. That ratio is especially true if you look at those in the Top 10, T25, etc.



    Also, forgiveness isn’t total BS. It’s why we have moved to 460cc drivers, mallet putters, etc. If you use a large driver or a mallet putter but then say forgiving irons are BS, I think that’s a bit ironic, isn’t it?




    First. I have to dispel that myth.

    At my count today 13 of the top 25 in the world ranking plays an mb. Of course nobody is discounting that 2-3 iron driving irons abound. Hardly a majority in fact technically a minority playing a cb. But let’s say even split to be fair enough. And I didn’t count bubba who went mb and now back to s55.





    And for the record. I hate all of the big clubs. 460cc driver. Mallet putters etc. lol. But I get that they offer things for sure and to compete we have to explore those things. Same with irons. I’m in that same path you are talking about.



    I’m just trying to tell you to lower your expectations. And be careful of fitment. You can go backwards much easier than forwards. And like I said. You’re choice is much less GI so probably a non issue swing wise as long as the weight and sole suit you. Originally I thought you were going to some of these irons which have a higher vertical cog. You have to adjust to hit those vs an mb. Those irons are to counter act a steep swing that balloons the ball. And you’ll find it takes a steep move to play them welll. That wa my cautionary tale. That’s all. Didn’t mean to get into the “ what’s a player improvement iron “ debate.



    TM Tour M6 11.2 * KK Tini XTS 70X
    TM Tour 17 M1 14.5* Graphite Design AD DI 8X
    Ping i500 pre-production proto 3 iron Graphite Design AD DI 105X
    Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
    Ping Glide Forged 50 54 60 S400
    Cameron GSS 009 1.5 tungsten sole weights, sound slot
  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Meet Séamus, Squirrel Control Officer Advanced Members Posts: 6,103 ✭✭
    edited February 20
    manima1 wrote:

    tobiasjd wrote:


    I don't like switching at the 4i either. But there's just no way I can get anywhere near the same kind of ball flight that I get with a hybrid. Maybe if I experimented enough with shaft options, but that can get expensive.




    Perhaps the 7-series Srixons have a bit more "help" with the muscle/cavity to help get the ball up in a hurry than your i-blades. I'd be baggin the 3 as well however, I prefer having the driving iron 2 in that spot for added versatility at the top end.






    The difference in MOI between the 7 series and 9 series in Srixon irons is very small. I would term it insignificant. Some years, it's even non existant.
    The Ever Changing Bag!

    Driver: Cobra King LTD, ProtoPype 80x or RIP 80x, 43.5" -or- SuperDeep 9.5*, ProtoPype 80x or NV85x, 43.5"
    3w: Cobra King LTD, Motore F1 85 X, 42.5"
    1 iron: Maxfli Revolution, DGS400
    2-PW, Golden Ram Tour Grind, Dynamic S
    SW: Ram Tour Grind Feel Matched 58*, DGS
    Putter: Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34.5", PP58 midsize grip
    (Cleveland Huntington Beach #1 35" -or- Mizuno TPM-2, 35" as backups)
    Balls: in no particular order... Wilson Staff FG Tour, Duo Urethane, or 50 Elite, Srixon ZStar/ZStar XV, Snell MTB Black... will trot out Maxfli HT-100 or Elite 90 from time to time
    Shoes by True Linkswear
  • LUMALUMA I Am My Greatest Downfall Advanced Members Posts: 2,345 ✭✭
    edited February 20
    Titleist CB's are great. Been playing them for a long time. Recently decided to switch to MB. I like knowing I will have nothing left to question except myself with the MB.



    For me, I would rather fix my toe shots than play an iron that gets better results with toe shots. Hitting out the toe is not the clubs fault, it's mine.



    That is the thing I feel that the player must decide. Do I want my club to fix the problem or do I want to fix the problem?
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 9 deg / Aldila Rouge
    Titleist 915 F 15 deg / Diamana 70
    Callaway XR 19 deg Hybrid / Project X LZ S
    Titleist 718 MB PW-4i / Project X 6.0 
    Titleist Vokey SM5 50/54/58
    Scotty Cameron Newport 2.5
  • DevilDogDevilDog Advanced Members Posts: 1,811


    Word to the wise. Measure the swingweight and lie angles of your favorite mb. And only test an iron when you've added weight to the head to match that swingweight and adjusted for lie. Same or very very similar shaft helps too. Going whole hog and hitting a lighter head plus light shaft etc is a recipe to lose your swing. My opinion. For reference. My i500 pw measured E1 last week when I recordEd all specs.( 5/8 over with 130g shaft). Loads of lead tape. Most modern heads are a good bit lighter than an MB.




    Explains well the issue I have with most modern clubs. I prefer more weight in the head. One has to be cautious with head weight as you mentioned. Taking weight out makes face close faster and can cause hooks. Too much weight and face is harder to square.
  • anthanth From the Land Down Under Advanced Members Posts: 2,738 ✭✭
    If AP2 is GI, does that make AP1 SGI?



    I think most people would put the AP2 in the Player’s category. Based on profile, blade length and offset - all of which are designed to fit the “player’s” eye
    Callaway Rogue 10.5
    Callaway BB Alpha 816 16
    Srixon Z H45 19 Hybrid
    Srixon Z U45 23 Utility
    Srixon Z 765/965 5 - PW
    TaylorMade Milled Grind 50 & 54
    TaylorMade Milled Grind Hi Toe 58
    TaylorMade Spider Tour Red
    TaylorMade TP5
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    LUMA wrote:


    Titleist CB's are great. Been playing them for a long time. Recently decided to switch to MB. I like knowing I will have nothing left to question except myself with the MB.



    For me, I would rather fix my toe shots than play an iron that gets better results with toe shots. Hitting out the toe is not the clubs fault, it's mine.



    That is the thing I feel that the player must decide. Do I want my club to fix the problem or do I want to fix the problem?


    The guy is a +3.1 index. He has an infrequent miss just like many pros. I assume you've fixed things so well with the MBs that you never miss now.
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
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