I’m giving up Blades... sort of...

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,040 ✭✭


    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I’m between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I’m having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I’m opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don’t get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it’s too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I’m not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We’ll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    I wish you well op. But having just completed that task i can tell you. It still comes down to 2 things. Driver ( tee ball) and putter. Mostly putter. According to my stats. Iron game hasn’t changed by any measure. It was already good. I could play any iron from blades to g700 and I don’t think my iron stays would change. By change I mean averaging hitting 2 plus more greens a round , or vastly improved proximity. That’s about the only 2 stats that matter with an iron. Now of you find something you like the fligh tand feel of. By all means go with it. But don’t expect them to lower your scores. I did and was disappointed greatly. Time better spent on hitting the tee ball farther and straighter and making putts.
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  • manima1manima1 Members Posts: 690 ✭✭


    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    Think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how easy that U85/2 will be to hit. They are effortless and perform excellently on toe misses as well.



    Great choice in the 785s. Play them up to the 4i and don't think twice, no need to go 585 or U85 at the 4i spot.
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  • andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    I wish you well op. But having just completed that task i can tell you. It still comes down to 2 things. Driver ( tee ball) and putter. Mostly putter. According to my stats. Iron game hasn't changed by any measure. It was already good. I could play any iron from blades to g700 and I don't think my iron stays would change. By change I mean averaging hitting 2 plus more greens a round , or vastly improved proximity. That's about the only 2 stats that matter with an iron. Now of you find something you like the fligh tand feel of. By all means go with it. But don't expect them to lower your scores. I did and was disappointed greatly. Time better spent on hitting the tee ball farther and straighter and making putts.




    I'm a great driver of the ball and decent putter. I am also making efforts to improve my putting in 2019 by utilizing some different putting styles than conventional.



    Like I said, the goal isn't just: switch to CB's = lower scores. There's a lot of factors. I know what my miss is with my irons, and I am switching to a profile that might benefit that miss. By playing to that miss I might improve my proximity to pin by a small margin, and my GIR by a small margin. But both of those mean maybe more putts for birdie and maybe closer putts for birdie. If over the course of a year my index gets back into the +4 or better range, then I'd probably count it as a success.
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • manima1 wrote:



    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    Think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how easy that U85/2 will be to hit. They are effortless and perform excellently on toe misses as well.



    Great choice in the 785s. Play them up to the 4i and don't think twice, no need to go 585 or U85 at the 4i spot.




    Thanks for the reassurance! I think I'll be just fine with them up to a 4i, and don't particularly love the idea of switching to a different iron in the 4i and losing that good feel. But this experiment is for the betterment of the game, so we'll see.



    I think too I'll like the ZU85. I've always been very strong with DI off the tee which comes into play for me very often. The only shot I need the ZU85 to do is hold a green well enough to make it viable as a 2nd-shot Par 5 club, which theoretically it should do no problem. But I think (for me) the ZU85 type club has more benefits across all facets of my game than a 5W or hybrid does.
    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,266 ✭✭
    edited Feb 19, 2019 11:40am #66
    Chew70 wrote:


    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.




    I disagree with you.



    The forgiveness doesn't have to do anything with the strike, it comes before the strike. I've noticed most people i play with have an under plane inside takeaway and this leads to fat shots, may not be 6 inches behind the ball, most of the 3 to 10 handicaps seem to hit a half inch behind the ball. The GI models have a wider sole to help overcome the fat shot.



    These same guys will eventually move to graphite shafts because of elbow pain from fat shots.
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  • mmack067mmack067 Members Posts: 682 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    Chew70 wrote:


    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.




    I disagree with you.



    The forgiveness doesn't have to do anything with the strike, it comes before the strike. I've noticed most people i play with have an under plane inside takeaway and this leads to fat shots, may not be 6 inches behind the ball, most of the 3 to 10 handicaps seem to hit a half inch behind the ball. The GI models have a wider sole to help overcome the fat shot.



    These same guys will eventually move to graphite shafts because of elbow pain from fat shots.




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  • TexasRedTexasRed ClubWRX Posts: 84 ClubWRX
    Nothing wrong with playing a split set, I wanted blades in 7-PW and CB in 4-6 myself. A little forgiveness on the longer shots in nice.
  • chisagchisag Members Posts: 2,913 ✭✭
    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.
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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,266 ✭✭
    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.
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  • mmack067mmack067 Members Posts: 682 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,179 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:
    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So at least look cool?
  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,266 ✭✭
    mmack067 wrote:

    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?




    If you have a guy that picked up golf in his late 20s, hitting a low 140 yard hook with a 6 iron, does that matter?
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  • manima1manima1 Members Posts: 690 ✭✭




    I think too I'll like the ZU85. I've always been very strong with DI off the tee which comes into play for me very often. The only shot I need the ZU85 to do is hold a green well enough to make it viable as a 2nd-shot Par 5 club, which theoretically it should do no problem. But I think (for me) the ZU85 type club has more benefits across all facets of my game than a 5W or hybrid does.




    When I first put my U45 in play, it actually launched too high for me especially with the stock lightweight nippon shaft. The S400 to match my irons has definitely helped bring the flight down, but these things were made to launch. I have to work to flight it down - so I don't suspect you'll have any problems getting them to hold a green.



    The only downside for me is they are an absolute no-go out of any partially tough lie in the rough. The wide sole just doesn't allow for clean enough contact and has a tendency to get caught up and close down on the ball. Otherwise it's been a godsend in that spot, coming from someone that can't keep hybrids from turning left.
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,179 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:
    mmack067 wrote:

    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    I disagree.



    I don't think it's the equipment, golfers i see struggling just have bad swings. No equipment change is going to fix that.




    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?




    If you have a guy that picked up golf in his late 20s, hitting a low 140 yard hook with a 6 iron, does that matter?






    Yes, if you’re absolutely terrible nothing will help.
  • mmack067mmack067 Members Posts: 682 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    mmack067 wrote:






    So you don't believe that higher MOI helps retain ball speed on misses that will generally fair better than a similarly struck shot with a lower MOI club?




    If you have a guy that picked up golf in his late 20s, hitting a low 140 yard hook with a 6 iron, does that matter?




    For the absolute worst of the golfing population, sure, maybe clubs don't make too much of a difference. For everyone else I'd argue that increased forgiveness on off-center hits, improved ball speed, and launch conditions that modern clubs can provide will be beneficial.



    Some people might only gain a fraction of a stroke per round with equipment changes, but over the course of a season or longer that will add up and have a positive impact on their game.
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  • chisagchisag Members Posts: 2,913 ✭✭
    ... We are not talking bad swings with center contact. As an example, a fairly repeatable swing that comes over the top, casting the club head can result in toe hits and/or low on the face. SGI and GI irons can make these shots much more playable and more importantly, make the game much more enjoyable.
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  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,266 ✭✭
    chisag wrote:


    ... We are not talking bad swings with center contact. As an example, a fairly repeatable swing that comes over the top, casting the club head can result in toe hits and/or low on the face. SGI and GI irons can make these shots much more playable and more importantly, make the game much more enjoyable.




    I think fixing that swing would make the game more enjoyable
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  • mmack067mmack067 Members Posts: 682 ✭✭
    BottleCap wrote:

    chisag wrote:


    ... We are not talking bad swings with center contact. As an example, a fairly repeatable swing that comes over the top, casting the club head can result in toe hits and/or low on the face. SGI and GI irons can make these shots much more playable and more importantly, make the game much more enjoyable.




    I think fixing that swing would make the game more enjoyable




    Nobody is suggesting otherwise!



    Leverage improved tech where you can to improve your misses and also work on swing mechanics to reduce the frequency and severity of those misses.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,040 ✭✭
    edited Feb 19, 2019 2:41pm #80
    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that’s very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say “ well I put a bad move on that one “ and you move on.



    So you think. “ if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too “. What you don’t account for is two things. You don’t get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It’s supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what’s the point ?



    It’s a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB’s and hit them well for a long time doesn’t change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I’m telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I’m speaking from an informed position ( for me ).
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  • dunndunn Members Posts: 6,361 ✭✭
    edited Feb 19, 2019 3:12pm #81
    AB1981 wrote:

    Chew70 wrote:
    Obviously it's up to you but forgiveness is bs for the most part. I went from blades to gi back to blades because the truth is my scoring average didn't change over a 2 year period. A pure strike with a blade is the pure essence of golf. Period. You can say what you want but the facts are no iron, gi or blade, will matter in the long run. Play what want and what looks good at adress. Life is too short. Peace out.
    What he said...I have played everything from Ping G series to blades the last couple years and I don't score any different with any of them. Currently playing Cobra Fly Z+. But I guess in fairness my home course is only 6600 all the way back so I hit a lot of wedges, my outlook might be different if I was regularly playing bigger tracks.
    good point, my track is similar.....3 or 4 holes are deep but alot of em short.....I am on ocean so air bit heavier....I play em out ego, sure they feel better but there really isnt an advantage for me....players irons have gotten so good and look is fantastic really not much different looking than most MBs......I still pull em out every once un awhile tho....perception for golfer is how many shots do you have to give back.....if you have alot doesnt really matter, the less you have to work with more every one counts....1 or 2 shots to me is a BIG deal



    Short game is another factor, have a good one and missing greens all day isnt too bad....bad short game and mishitting MBs all day is long day



    If you dont care tho about any of that fire away with baby blades baby!
  • gators78gators78 ClubWRX Posts: 3,907 ClubWRX
    Rock the shovels man, there's a club for people that aren't ashamed of huge top lines, miles of offset, and big *** irons, Kenny Perry is the President, Mark Calcavecchia is VP, Freddy is the Treasurer, KJ Choi is the Secretary.
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  • collje26collje26 Members Posts: 523 ✭✭
    I’ve tried to convince myself that the player cb’s are more forgiving than the mb’s however I always go back to the mb’s because I don’t see that much. Is there really something significant say Callaway forged 18 cb vs the mb? I gamer the mp 18’s prior and had a combo of the sc/mb and the difference was minimal.
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  • andrieddleandrieddle Posts: 1,798 ✭✭
    The Z785 just picked up 2 wins this past weekend, so if that's any indication, you made the right move.
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  • avguyavguy Replacement Player Sonoran Desert, AZMembers Posts: 1,053 ✭✭
    edited Feb 20, 2019 6:12am #85
    Comparing modern MB forged irons now vs. modern GI cavity cast irons is something I have very current results with...



    Going back to 2008, when I finally upped rounds to over 10-12X/YR. (despite living in a 12mos. golf season), I have played 6 sets of MBs. As a curiosity and perhaps thinking I should try one of the hi-tech. lines (plus go lighter in shaft weights), I went into a new set of TM M5s in Modus 105.



    I've only played the irons since 2009 as 5-PW, but have used shaft wts. of 108 up to 128G in the MB sets.



    After a couple of range outings and one round, I can attest that mostly the GI versions by TM offer me no more forgiveness despite likely much higher MPF scores and simple geometry. They are nice clubs - I will not bash them. But for feel and heft into the ball, I've fallen back in what I get on my shots. Due to more aggressive lofts, my 9 in TM goes almost as far as an 8 in my past MBs. But I was not seeking distance.



    Could be the wider soles or not having recent history in shafts below 115G - but everything feels too light, and I am hating anything thinned. Prior thinned in a forged MB would not be so ugly - and were far less often!



    Good thing is that I kept one set of MBs in a shaft wt. closer to these (sig) in the Razr MBs - fave of mine for 7 years. If I want to keep 3 sets around, which is the max I would, I actually will keep close to this shaft wt, and get another "almost" MB. Thinking of TM P760 - their 8-PW are pure solid forged heads with progressive Speed foam from 7 and up.



    One of my past instructors always said he felt the MB was like a sledgehammer into the ball, a cavity more like a frying pan. The M5s are not bad feeling, but just too different right now after more than a decade of forged MBs. I think a couple of mos. into a season of mixing my rotation with M5 and the Callies and perhaps P760 things could even out in my results if I get used to feels.



    I was at one time rotating between Mizuno MP-32 (128G shaft), MP-69 (113G), and Wilson Staff True Blades (115G) with no detectable differences in feel, flight, or fun. FWIW, I play a pedestrian 158yds. 7, normally a draw.
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  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 471 ✭✭
    edited Feb 20, 2019 8:56am #86

    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that's very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say " well I put a bad move on that one " and you move on.



    So you think. " if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too ". What you don't account for is two things. You don't get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It's supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what's the point ?



    It's a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB's and hit them well for a long time doesn't change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I'm telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I'm speaking from an informed position ( for me ).






    Yeah but we're not talking about him moving from MB to GI here though. I agree with your post to a point and certainly if he's maintained a + with blades I wouldn't be wanting to change too much. After all, most of us here are just amateurs and shooting or breaking par is kind of the point of golf (some just want to hit good shots and drink beers and I get that - for me it's improving my scores) so making changes once you're doing that seems scary to me. Back to my original point though, the 785 is not a chunky iron by any means. PGA guys are playing it and have now won with it. I believe that over a season I would probably notice a difference in my scores if I was playing a full set of MB vs my AP2. I'm a good ball striker but there is a reason you don't see every PGA player using pure MBs. You don't give up much in the way of feel or workability but you gain the advantage of having that shot that is 1/8 inch outside of the sweet spot toe side getting to the green. As I said earlier in this thread, I had a par 3 I was hitting an 8 iron into that felt toey but was pin high to 6 feet. Looked at the mark on the face and there is no way it would have been where it was with my blades as it was on the grooves but definitely out towards toe. I don't blame the club when I hit a bad shot I just think that I put a bad move on it. If I was playing Ping Gs I'd maybe be doing what you said a bit more thinking the club should save it.



    Basically, if he was moving to something super chunky I'd be asking WTF but he's going to a players club with a touch of extra help and if it means he's scrambling to save par even one less time per round it could help his scores. That's why the tour guys do it.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,040 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:


    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that's very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say " well I put a bad move on that one " and you move on.



    So you think. " if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too ". What you don't account for is two things. You don't get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It's supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what's the point ?



    It's a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB's and hit them well for a long time doesn't change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I'm telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I'm speaking from an informed position ( for me ).






    Yeah but we're not talking about him moving from MB to GI here though. I agree with your post to a point and certainly if he's maintained a + with blades I wouldn't be wanting to change too much. After all, most of us here are just amateurs and shooting or breaking par is kind of the point of golf (some just want to hit good shots and drink beers and I get that - for me it's improving my scores) so making changes once you're doing that seems scary to me. Back to my original point though, the 785 is not a chunky iron by any means. PGA guys are playing it and have now won with it. I believe that over a season I would probably notice a difference in my scores if I was playing a full set of MB vs my AP2. I'm a good ball striker but there is a reason you don't see every PGA player using pure MBs. You don't give up much in the way of feel or workability but you gain the advantage of having that shot that is 1/8 inch outside of the sweet spot toe side getting to the green. As I said earlier in this thread, I had a par 3 I was hitting an 8 iron into that felt toey but was pin high to 6 feet. Looked at the mark on the face and there is no way it would have been where it was with my blades as it was on the grooves but definitely out towards toe. I don't blame the club when I hit a bad shot I just think that I put a bad move on it. If I was playing Ping Gs I'd maybe be doing what you said a bit more thinking the club should save it.



    Basically, if he was moving to something super chunky I'd be asking WTF but he's going to a players club with a touch of extra help and if it means he's scrambling to save par even one less time per round it could help his scores. That's why the tour guys do it.




    Well. Maybe I’m confused. Ap2 much like my i500 are GI. By any definition. There is no such thing as a players “ multi material “ cb. If it’s a welded face it’s GI. And ap2 are just that. 785 appears to be a 1 piece iron so yes. Not really any different than an mb. Just a little perimeter weight. But. Compare to say the callaway razr mb the perimeter weighting isn’t really more. Just a different name.



    785 and ap2 aren’t apples and oranges.
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  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 471 ✭✭

    balls_deep wrote:


    chisag wrote:


    ... What I find frustrating about these threads is how many assume what works for them is universal for all. Your scores don't change when you hit more forgiving irons. Just go to any golf store and look at the used irons for sale. You will occasionally run across some MB's or PI's that have rust in the sweetspot that is pretty worn out in the center of the face. That would apply to some that post here and I get it. But many more have toe wear, and some completely off the grooves. As a full time instructor I taught many more players that miss the center than hit it and MB's or even PI's are a disaster for them, even if they do look cool. Understanding your miss and the clubs that help that miss produce the most playable shots should be the goal, at least for those looking to shoot their lowest scores. Stated ad nauseam is play whatever gives you the most joy even if it is not conducive to your lowest scores, just don't assume your experience has anything to do with others.




    In a bubble I understand that frustration.



    But. My post was from a place that's very much the same as the OP. A place where I assume he plays an MB with no fear of the iron itself ? When you are in that place hitting good shots with them actually creates confidence. Bad shots you say " well I put a bad move on that one " and you move on.



    So you think. " if I had some forgiveness those bad ones would be livable too ". What you don't account for is two things. You don't get the same confidence from a great shot with the forgiving iron after you look down and see it was 1/4 inch toward the toe. And you also pickup the frustration of bad ones. You no longer blame the bad ones on you. You start blaming the club. After all. It's supposed to erase those bad ones , otherwise what's the point ?



    It's a middle ground of mediocrity that you fall into. They change your aoa , and sometimes even path depending on their tendency. It then leaks to the other clubs.



    Sure. Call me nuts. Ask the OP what it changes in 6 months time. A plus handicap who truly played MB's and hit them well for a long time doesn't change to a GI iron and not change his swing somewhat. Is that change worth it or wrong ? Personal choice there. I was just trying to give him my experiences. Same as my first post with being Careful with overall weight and swing weight. You can go super light if you want. But if bet dollars to dog **** you regret it. ( again if you were hitting the MB well ). Just two different animals. I'm telling you that while still having the i500 in play. So call me a zealot if you wish. ( not you personally ) but I'm speaking from an informed position ( for me ).






    Yeah but we're not talking about him moving from MB to GI here though. I agree with your post to a point and certainly if he's maintained a + with blades I wouldn't be wanting to change too much. After all, most of us here are just amateurs and shooting or breaking par is kind of the point of golf (some just want to hit good shots and drink beers and I get that - for me it's improving my scores) so making changes once you're doing that seems scary to me. Back to my original point though, the 785 is not a chunky iron by any means. PGA guys are playing it and have now won with it. I believe that over a season I would probably notice a difference in my scores if I was playing a full set of MB vs my AP2. I'm a good ball striker but there is a reason you don't see every PGA player using pure MBs. You don't give up much in the way of feel or workability but you gain the advantage of having that shot that is 1/8 inch outside of the sweet spot toe side getting to the green. As I said earlier in this thread, I had a par 3 I was hitting an 8 iron into that felt toey but was pin high to 6 feet. Looked at the mark on the face and there is no way it would have been where it was with my blades as it was on the grooves but definitely out towards toe. I don't blame the club when I hit a bad shot I just think that I put a bad move on it. If I was playing Ping Gs I'd maybe be doing what you said a bit more thinking the club should save it.



    Basically, if he was moving to something super chunky I'd be asking WTF but he's going to a players club with a touch of extra help and if it means he's scrambling to save par even one less time per round it could help his scores. That's why the tour guys do it.




    Well. Maybe I'm confused. Ap2 much like my i500 are GI. By any definition. There is no such thing as a players " multi material " cb. If it's a welded face it's GI. And ap2 are just that. 785 appears to be a 1 piece iron so yes. Not really any different than an mb. Just a little perimeter weight. But. Compare to say the callaway razr mb the perimeter weighting isn't really more. Just a different name.



    785 and ap2 aren't apples and oranges.




    Hmm I really don't think that our definitions of players irons match up. The AP2 are not blades and they do share some features with GI irons but I would never put them in that category. By your definition the 718 CB wouldn't be a players club because it has a face insert and therefore isn't a one piece forging... not buying your argument.
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  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members Posts: 2,719 ✭✭
    went from Nike Original Blades to Nike VR Pro, Nike Vapor Pro, Srixon z945, z965....back to Nike Vapor Pro and absolutely....loving it . Good middle ground between butter knives and clumsy blades. Loved the z945s, but it was obvious it was a better club for those used to cavity backs. The sole was too wide.. z965s were phenomenal..very long..felt too beefy...vapor pro has a flick feel through the ball. Not as long, but versatile.
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  • tobiasjdtobiasjd Members Posts: 427 ✭✭

    manima1 wrote:



    andrieddle wrote:


    Let us know what set you end up with OP....curious to see that




    I'm between the Z785 and the Apex Pro 19 I think.




    So I have officially decided on the Z785 irons to give a go. They use a softer metal than any other iron and are like $500 cheaper or more than the Apex 19 Pro after my Nippon shaft and MCC+4 grip choice. Srixon really has the best no upcharge options.



    I did also snag a U85 2-iron I'm having built with an AD-DI shaft, but I'm opening to swapping it out for a more forgiving option if I don't get the results that I want, and maybe using a U85 or more forgiving iron in the 4-iron if need be too.



    I just typically hit a 5W too well and it's too much club in the 18* spot off the deck, and I'm not always super confident off the tee with a low loft hybrid... maybe I should be open to a 4W/7W combo or something too. We'll see.



    But the main point of this test for 2019 is to stay away from Blades altogether and see if it does anything at all to my handicap over the course of a full year.




    Think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how easy that U85/2 will be to hit. They are effortless and perform excellently on toe misses as well.



    Great choice in the 785s. Play them up to the 4i and don't think twice, no need to go 585 or U85 at the 4i spot.




    Thanks for the reassurance! I think I'll be just fine with them up to a 4i, and don't particularly love the idea of switching to a different iron in the 4i and losing that good feel. But this experiment is for the betterment of the game, so we'll see.



    I think too I'll like the ZU85. I've always been very strong with DI off the tee which comes into play for me very often. The only shot I need the ZU85 to do is hold a green well enough to make it viable as a 2nd-shot Par 5 club, which theoretically it should do no problem. But I think (for me) the ZU85 type club has more benefits across all facets of my game than a 5W or hybrid does.




    I don't like switching at the 4i either. But there's just no way I can get anywhere near the same kind of ball flight that I get with a hybrid. Maybe if I experimented enough with shaft options, but that can get expensive.
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  • bodhi555bodhi555 Posts: 714 ✭✭
    I've had a couple of rounds this winter where I've been playing abroad so had some rentals on the way round rather than the trusty VR Pros, and I was genuinely interested to see the difference in my game. I had 2 rounds with AP3's and 3 with AP2's, all fitted with S300 shafts, so similar to my configuration at home, if not quite identical.



    Wasn't a huge fan of the feel (or lack of), but could have coped with that if there were night and day performance differences between the two, but I can honestly say there weren't. AP3's traveled as far as my VR Pros, the AP2's were a club short, and for trying to control ball flight they were less than ideal - just wanted to go straight and high. A couple of times I wanted ot hit a fade round a tree, both times the ball carried straight, and punching out of trees required going up a few clubs on the VR Pros.



    I wouldn't swap for all the tees in China, but fair play if you think it will help you enjoy the game more.
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