I’m giving up Blades... sort of...

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  • playaplaya Members Posts: 8,721 ✭✭
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.
  • playaplaya Members Posts: 8,721 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 7:02am #183

    reider69 wrote:


    GIR is the single most important stat to scoring in golf in my opinion. I have owned a set of MP-4s and have played many cavity backs. In my experience a ball strike off center is severely punished by a blade and I have a very high swing speed. My 900 forged can be hit very poorly and they never seem to fall short of the green. When a toe strike from 200 yards ends up on green and allows me to putt that is evidence of a cavity backs value. A toe strike with an MP-4 from 200 wouldn't sniff the green and I would be chipping. That difference in which type of club I chose to hit makes a difference in my score. Why were the Ping Eye 2s so transcendently popular and game changing? Because guys found that a perimeter weighted cavity back was much easier to hit and more forgiving than the blades they had played prior. The Ping Eye 2 helped golfers score better. People believe what they want to believe but I believe that most(99%) amateurs will score better with cavity backs as opposed to blades.




    So many good responses in this forum already -- thank you everyone!



    I do agree with you as well about GIR. That's usually the stat I try to go by the most. Yes, I understand not all GIR are created equal, but more often than not your scores will still improve if you're facing a 50ft putt versus a 10y chip. Statistically almost everyone 3-putts less often than they fail to get up-and-down.



    I agree with you particularly on the longer clubs too. Just for simple math, let's say a toe hit with a blade loses 10% distance, and a toe hit with a CB with some weight there loses 5% distance. On my stock 168y 8-iron, a toe hit with a blade comes up 16.8y short while my CB comes up 8.4y short. On a 200y shot we're talking 20y and 10y. Even if the distance is smaller, we're talking potentially more GIR per round and potentially closer to the pin. No club will save a bad mishit, but I do believe club design can aid my particular miss and help me get it slightly closer to the pin more often.



    There's an article out there that statistically breaks down your average GIR and can calculate what score you probably shoot on average. The difference between 10, 12, and 14 GIR per round is a huge difference in scoring. If I can make an equipment change and improve my GIR even by 1 per round, I'm most likely going to lower scores in the long run. That's sort of what I am aiming for.


    GIR is absolutely key, and especially for guys in the mid to high single digit range. Stats show that the difference in up and downs goes up exponentially with caps. Pros have far superior up and down percentages compared even to scratch ams, once you get out to 5 and over your up and downs are worse than 50/50. When your up and down is less than 50%, and you only have a few shots to play with, hitting more GIR has a huge impact.
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 555 ✭✭
    playa wrote:


    reider69 wrote:


    GIR is the single most important stat to scoring in golf in my opinion. I have owned a set of MP-4s and have played many cavity backs. In my experience a ball strike off center is severely punished by a blade and I have a very high swing speed. My 900 forged can be hit very poorly and they never seem to fall short of the green. When a toe strike from 200 yards ends up on green and allows me to putt that is evidence of a cavity backs value. A toe strike with an MP-4 from 200 wouldn't sniff the green and I would be chipping. That difference in which type of club I chose to hit makes a difference in my score. Why were the Ping Eye 2s so transcendently popular and game changing? Because guys found that a perimeter weighted cavity back was much easier to hit and more forgiving than the blades they had played prior. The Ping Eye 2 helped golfers score better. People believe what they want to believe but I believe that most(99%) amateurs will score better with cavity backs as opposed to blades.




    So many good responses in this forum already -- thank you everyone!



    I do agree with you as well about GIR. That's usually the stat I try to go by the most. Yes, I understand not all GIR are created equal, but more often than not your scores will still improve if you're facing a 50ft putt versus a 10y chip. Statistically almost everyone 3-putts less often than they fail to get up-and-down.



    I agree with you particularly on the longer clubs too. Just for simple math, let's say a toe hit with a blade loses 10% distance, and a toe hit with a CB with some weight there loses 5% distance. On my stock 168y 8-iron, a toe hit with a blade comes up 16.8y short while my CB comes up 8.4y short. On a 200y shot we're talking 20y and 10y. Even if the distance is smaller, we're talking potentially more GIR per round and potentially closer to the pin. No club will save a bad mishit, but I do believe club design can aid my particular miss and help me get it slightly closer to the pin more often.



    There's an article out there that statistically breaks down your average GIR and can calculate what score you probably shoot on average. The difference between 10, 12, and 14 GIR per round is a huge difference in scoring. If I can make an equipment change and improve my GIR even by 1 per round, I'm most likely going to lower scores in the long run. That's sort of what I am aiming for.


    GIR is absolutely key, and especially for guys in the mid to high single digit range. Stats show that the difference in up and downs goes up exponentially with caps. Pros have far superior up and down percentages compared even to scratch ams, once you get out to 5 and over your up and downs are worse than 50/50. When your up and down is less than 50%, and you only have a few shots to play with, hitting more GIR has a huge impact.




    It's funny, you hear people on here saying all the time that they use blades so they can work the ball easier. That same ability to move the ball from A to B purposefully is the same quality that will let you miss the green if you unintentionally put the wrong path, face to path, or point of contact on the swing. I had blades in play because I liked how they looked and felt. I never believed that they let me hit the ball better. I think it's a bit silly for anyone to say that perimeter weighting will not assist in mishits. Further to that, even pros mishit the ball (and it's not rare either). If you want to play blades because you either like how they feel or you like the image you're presenting by having them in the bag, more power to you. There is flat out a very good reason that many pros have gone to some sort of cavity design. A players cavity lets you work the ball as much as you need and provides vital help if you're a few mm off the sweet spot. It's very rare that an amateur needs to attempt to bend a shot like Tiger's bunker shot and even if you do I believe it could be done with a 785, AP2 or the like. If you want to play blades then do it but don't try to argue that it is either making your swing better or giving you some sort of advantage in moving the ball. Again, it's not like OP is going from blades to Ping Gs. The 785 is slim and very playable. GIRs are king. That's why I moved back to AP2 from blades.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,809 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 9:27am #185
    I agree with most of that above^



    But I will say that there are two different mindsets and moves for each type iron. It’s not blade or cb. But rather vertical cog and sole width.



    You cannot play a wide sole higher Vcog iron exactly like a narrow sole low COG MB. If you do one of two things happens.



    You’re hitting the wide sole iron well and the thin one you’re digging holes. You have to hit more steeply into some of these higher cog new irons.



    Or you’re hitting the narrow sole well with a shallower aoa and the wide sole one suffers. Especially if it’s hard ground. Lots of thin shots.



    Then there’s the aspect of how you see shots. What type courses you play. Etc. lots of newer irons are hard to hit a real hook with. Not this pull hook from over the top like most hacks posses. But a real , start 49 yards right and come back left hook. Or the big high fade over an old growth tree. If you play a tight course you’re going to need these two shots every round. It’s possible. But it’s harder to do. I flip flop quite a bit in my mind on this. On perfect days where you’re playing from the fairway and can play gentle draws and fades the new stuff is great. But from behind obstacles they require more work. In the wind they require more work. So for me it comes out to be a real wash. Now I understand that some folks who don’t control he ball will want higher and straight. And will “ take their medicine “ from behind things. That’s cool.



    I will also add that a thin soled iron does technically help your swing. Like any of the small training aid irons sold. If you can hit the small iron flush and without taking pelts 6 inches deep you know you’re swinging well. That iron will demands you adjust to it. Most wide soled irons will mask the aoa portion somewhat. Unless you live in soupy areas of the country where it’s casuasl water all year. Just hard to argue against that. IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You’re swing will be better. That’s fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say “ im getting help “. If you’re wearing a dime in the big iron then it’s a moot deal.





    None of that applies to the OP. As a plus guy he will find the middle of anything. I just mean in general terms you can’t say that the same swing works for all irons. If it did why would there be so many choices ? You’re changing for either whether you realize it or not.



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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,669 ClubWRX
    balls_deep wrote:

    playa wrote:


    reider69 wrote:


    GIR is the single most important stat to scoring in golf in my opinion. I have owned a set of MP-4s and have played many cavity backs. In my experience a ball strike off center is severely punished by a blade and I have a very high swing speed. My 900 forged can be hit very poorly and they never seem to fall short of the green. When a toe strike from 200 yards ends up on green and allows me to putt that is evidence of a cavity backs value. A toe strike with an MP-4 from 200 wouldn't sniff the green and I would be chipping. That difference in which type of club I chose to hit makes a difference in my score. Why were the Ping Eye 2s so transcendently popular and game changing? Because guys found that a perimeter weighted cavity back was much easier to hit and more forgiving than the blades they had played prior. The Ping Eye 2 helped golfers score better. People believe what they want to believe but I believe that most(99%) amateurs will score better with cavity backs as opposed to blades.




    So many good responses in this forum already -- thank you everyone!



    I do agree with you as well about GIR. That's usually the stat I try to go by the most. Yes, I understand not all GIR are created equal, but more often than not your scores will still improve if you're facing a 50ft putt versus a 10y chip. Statistically almost everyone 3-putts less often than they fail to get up-and-down.



    I agree with you particularly on the longer clubs too. Just for simple math, let's say a toe hit with a blade loses 10% distance, and a toe hit with a CB with some weight there loses 5% distance. On my stock 168y 8-iron, a toe hit with a blade comes up 16.8y short while my CB comes up 8.4y short. On a 200y shot we're talking 20y and 10y. Even if the distance is smaller, we're talking potentially more GIR per round and potentially closer to the pin. No club will save a bad mishit, but I do believe club design can aid my particular miss and help me get it slightly closer to the pin more often.



    There's an article out there that statistically breaks down your average GIR and can calculate what score you probably shoot on average. The difference between 10, 12, and 14 GIR per round is a huge difference in scoring. If I can make an equipment change and improve my GIR even by 1 per round, I'm most likely going to lower scores in the long run. That's sort of what I am aiming for.


    GIR is absolutely key, and especially for guys in the mid to high single digit range. Stats show that the difference in up and downs goes up exponentially with caps. Pros have far superior up and down percentages compared even to scratch ams, once you get out to 5 and over your up and downs are worse than 50/50. When your up and down is less than 50%, and you only have a few shots to play with, hitting more GIR has a huge impact.




    It's funny, you hear people on here saying all the time that they use blades so they can work the ball easier. That same ability to move the ball from A to B purposefully is the same quality that will let you miss the green if you unintentionally put the wrong path, face to path, or point of contact on the swing. I had blades in play because I liked how they looked and felt. I never believed that they let me hit the ball better. I think it's a bit silly for anyone to say that perimeter weighting will not assist in mishits. Further to that, even pros mishit the ball (and it's not rare either). If you want to play blades because you either like how they feel or you like the image you're presenting by having them in the bag, more power to you. There is flat out a very good reason that many pros have gone to some sort of cavity design. A players cavity lets you work the ball as much as you need and provides vital help if you're a few mm off the sweet spot. It's very rare that an amateur needs to attempt to bend a shot like Tiger's bunker shot and even if you do I believe it could be done with a 785, AP2 or the like. If you want to play blades then do it but don't try to argue that it is either making your swing better or giving you some sort of advantage in moving the ball. Again, it's not like OP is going from blades to Ping Gs. The 785 is slim and very playable. GIRs are king. That's why I moved back to AP2 from blades.




    I’m guilty. I just love the look of my Cobra MB/CB combos. I don’t hit them bad, but not nearly as well as my JPX 900’s. But they’re still in the bag. It’s purely based on the aesthetics for me. However, I do think if I have a tournament or serious money game I’ll probably stick then Mizunos back in the bag. Even my stupidity has limits!��
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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,204 ✭✭
    GIR is a huge but is highly influenced by FIR. Tee game sets the tone, if you put ball in right spot off the tee with a lot of consistency, approach to greens gets a lot easier.

    So, in most cases it's really Metal play and not irons that dictate that stat.



    If you have 140 out and cannot find the green by all means play super duper GI but to think a CB is giving a low cap an advantage on that shot of anything more than 15 feet in distance and done with fuzzier dispersion is being somewhat naive.



    What's never mentioned is the real benefit of CB/MOI to MB traditional. MB's expose impact more, face angle and AoA are revealed more with the inherent higher spin. They require that your hand release is more stable and consistent and that you can hit ball a couple of grooves higher and nail peak acceleration more often.CB's alleviate this quite a bit with lower spin and higher launch, so when Joe Scratch wants a bit more forgiveness in play, it's ,understandable. The real challenge of slinging blades is in this. It 's also why (in able hands) they are far better for shot control, because more control to get it right or screw it to **** is built into the design.



    One understands the challenges of MB's, one can adjust for it and play to capability ceiling and even get better because to address that your forced to look further than hands. If I was living in a sunny climate and played 50-100 rounds a year, I'ld carry a Tour 900's because most of my golf time would be spent on the course. But I live in New England, have a life where I'm lucky I get out 15-20 times a year. I could go an get SGI and "set it forget it" or I can take ample range time I do have to groove better swing mechanics. Blades offer high def feedback, so I use them to my advantage. That's real game improvement.
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 555 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:


    GIR is a huge but is highly influenced by FIR. Tee game sets the tone, if you put ball in right spot off the tee with a lot of consistency, approach to greens gets a lot easier.

    So, in most cases it's really Metal play and not irons that dictate that stat.



    If you have 140 out and cannot find the green by all means play super duper GI but to think a CB is giving a low cap an advantage on that shot of anything more than 15 feet in distance and done with fuzzier dispersion is being somewhat naive.



    What's never mentioned is the real benefit of CB/MOI to MB traditional. MB's expose impact more, face angle and AoA are revealed more with the inherent higher spin. They require that your hand release is more stable and consistent and that you can hit ball a couple of grooves higher and nail peak acceleration more often.CB's alleviate this quite a bit with lower spin and higher launch, so when Joe Scratch wants a bit more forgiveness in play, it's ,understandable. The real challenge of slinging blades is in this. It 's also why (in able hands) they are far better for shot control, because more control to get it right or screw it to **** is built into the design.



    One understands the challenges of MB's, one can adjust for it and play to capability ceiling and even get better because to address that your forced to look further than hands. If I was living in a sunny climate and played 50-100 rounds a year, I'ld carry a Tour 900's because most of my golf time would be spent on the course. But I live in New England, have a life where I'm lucky I get out 15-20 times a year. I could go an get SGI and "set it forget it" or I can take ample range time I do have to groove better swing mechanics. Blades offer high def feedback, so I use them to my advantage. That's real game improvement.




    Aside from being in a hazard or directly behind a tree I have to disagree with this. Watch this video that is specifically about that topic -->



    Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs.





    Regarding MOI I find it quite interesting. My AP2 are rated at 14.7 MOI by MPF. Irons like Callaway Apex Pro, Srixon 765 (and assumably 785) are just over 12. My Mizuno MP32 were only around 11. I don't find that lower MOI clubs are necessarily harder to hit which is kind of strange but it really starts to matter in the 3-6 irons most. Many people have trouble hitting the AP2 and it could be just the small blade length. I much prefer a very small club head so the AP2 makes sense. You can't find that kind of MOI in that size of head anywhere else (to my knowledge).





    Regarding Bladehunter's comments... I agree that high cuts and big hooks around obstacles are easier with a smaller club/thinner sole. I also think that (for me at least) a narrow sole works much better. I also think that going to smaller irons has helped me improve my swing drastically in a short amount of time. My Ping i200 were so difficult to hit low in comparison to my MP32 or AP2 so playing in the wind is much easier. If you have a good enough swing to elevate a smaller iron/thinner sole you will get much more workability. Of course you do lose some ability to hook the ball but honestly that was much less of an issue than keeping shots down for me. I could intentionally hook around trees with the Pings no problem but keeping shots down, especially with KBS tour shafts, was extremely difficult.



    Distance is important to scoring and I know that if I hit one off the toe with the AP2 compared to the CB I retain much more distance. I've tested it. I'd love to hit dead middle every single time and if I did no question I'd have a full set of blades in the bag. I hit middle nearly every time but it's not perfectly on the sweet spot and that distance consistency I get with a players cavity keeps my scores down. Over a season I guarantee AP2 vs CB/MB will make quite a difference in my HC.
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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,204 ✭✭
    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.
  • bub72ckbub72ck Members Posts: 2,456 ✭✭


    I agree with most of that above^



    But I will say that there are two different mindsets and moves for each type iron. It's not blade or cb. But rather vertical cog and sole width.



    You cannot play a wide sole higher Vcog iron exactly like a narrow sole low COG MB. If you do one of two things happens.



    You're hitting the wide sole iron well and the thin one you're digging holes. You have to hit more steeply into some of these higher cog new irons.



    Or you're hitting the narrow sole well with a shallower aoa and the wide sole one suffers. Especially if it's hard ground. Lots of thin shots.



    Then there's the aspect of how you see shots. What type courses you play. Etc. lots of newer irons are hard to hit a real hook with. Not this pull hook from over the top like most hacks posses. But a real , start 49 yards right and come back left hook. Or the big high fade over an old growth tree. If you play a tight course you're going to need these two shots every round. It's possible. But it's harder to do. I flip flop quite a bit in my mind on this. On perfect days where you're playing from the fairway and can play gentle draws and fades the new stuff is great. But from behind obstacles they require more work. In the wind they require more work. So for me it comes out to be a real wash. Now I understand that some folks who don't control he ball will want higher and straight. And will " take their medicine " from behind things. That's cool.



    I will also add that a thin soled iron does technically help your swing. Like any of the small training aid irons sold. If you can hit the small iron flush and without taking pelts 6 inches deep you know you're swinging well. That iron will demands you adjust to it. Most wide soled irons will mask the aoa portion somewhat. Unless you live in soupy areas of the country where it's casuasl water all year. Just hard to argue against that. IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.





    None of that applies to the OP. As a plus guy he will find the middle of anything. I just mean in general terms you can't say that the same swing works for all irons. If it did why would there be so many choices ? You're changing for either whether you realize it or not.




    But how much are you really having to "work" the ball in a round. I don't see it. MAYBE 1 or 2 shots at most. Even on tight courses you can generally favor a consistent shot pattern. The guys on tour may be working the ball on most every shot but the average scratch or + handicapper is not good enough to do that. A scratch golfer is much closer in ability to a 5 than a +5.
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  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 555 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:


    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.




    Obviously I'm not advocating trying to bomb it on tracks like that. My inlaws own a house at a very tricky course in Florida that you have to be extremely defensive on. OB everywhere and tee shots so tight that you are forced to hit iron even if it leaves you a long club in. My friend who plays mini tours down there came to play and had to fight just to break 80. It's obviously course dependant but I think it's pretty flawed to say FIR = GIR. It just isn't the case. As per the video I'd rather hit driver (if it's safe to) to have a wedge or 9 iron in from the rough rather than take the safe option and hit a 5 iron from the fairway. I don't go with that theory when I'm playing the above course though as you'll be OB or in water if you do that.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,809 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 10:52am #192
    bub72ck wrote:



    I agree with most of that above^



    But I will say that there are two different mindsets and moves for each type iron. It's not blade or cb. But rather vertical cog and sole width.



    You cannot play a wide sole higher Vcog iron exactly like a narrow sole low COG MB. If you do one of two things happens.



    You're hitting the wide sole iron well and the thin one you're digging holes. You have to hit more steeply into some of these higher cog new irons.



    Or you're hitting the narrow sole well with a shallower aoa and the wide sole one suffers. Especially if it's hard ground. Lots of thin shots.



    Then there's the aspect of how you see shots. What type courses you play. Etc. lots of newer irons are hard to hit a real hook with. Not this pull hook from over the top like most hacks posses. But a real , start 49 yards right and come back left hook. Or the big high fade over an old growth tree. If you play a tight course you're going to need these two shots every round. It's possible. But it's harder to do. I flip flop quite a bit in my mind on this. On perfect days where you're playing from the fairway and can play gentle draws and fades the new stuff is great. But from behind obstacles they require more work. In the wind they require more work. So for me it comes out to be a real wash. Now I understand that some folks who don't control he ball will want higher and straight. And will " take their medicine " from behind things. That's cool.



    I will also add that a thin soled iron does technically help your swing. Like any of the small training aid irons sold. If you can hit the small iron flush and without taking pelts 6 inches deep you know you're swinging well. That iron will demands you adjust to it. Most wide soled irons will mask the aoa portion somewhat. Unless you live in soupy areas of the country where it's casuasl water all year. Just hard to argue against that. IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.





    None of that applies to the OP. As a plus guy he will find the middle of anything. I just mean in general terms you can't say that the same swing works for all irons. If it did why would there be so many choices ? You're changing for either whether you realize it or not.




    But how much are you really having to "work" the ball in a round. I don't see it. MAYBE 1 or 2 shots at most. Even on tight courses you can generally favor a consistent shot pattern. The guys on tour may be working the ball on most every shot but the average scratch or + handicapper is not good enough to do that. A scratch golfer is much closer in ability to a 5 than a +5.




    I gues you have to define “ work”.



    I define it as hitting the shape the shot calls for including wind etc. if that’s the case then it’s every shot no ?



    What shot calls for nothing ?



    And before someone calls the “ I can move any iron “ out. Sure. I can too as a 1 shot trick artist. I’m talking abstract ease. As in assuming middle contact , then the play attitude for each style iron is different. Some don’t get that. The guy who plays an mb to a 3-4 iron doesn’t play smash and find golf most likely. He’s playing chess vs checkers.



    And I don’t buy they “ you need length “ either. I can point you to a 70 some odd year old pga master who plays 3-pw in various brands of mb and simply doesn’t miss. But he’s had heart surgery and has no speed. None. Center contact for him with a 3 iron is still 175 -180 yards.



    Point is contact is the key. Period. If that’s center then all we’re talking about is trajectory and feel preferences.
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  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭


    IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.






    I don't understand why this is always an argument that comes up in favor of MB irons. What is "fact" is if you can learn to hit the middle of any iron type then your swing will be better. In actuality, it's a bit different; you know your swing is improving when you're finding the middle of the club face more and more often, regardless of the club's design.



    The last thing you said is more pertinent, that if you're wearing a dime-sized pattern in any club then the point is moot.



    I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think you'll improve more, or more quickly, if you use an MB iron due to; size of sweet spot, audible feedback, physical feeling feedback on strike, etc. If you are truly intentional in your practice and improvement, then you notice these differences in your strike regardless and you can groove a phenomenal swing with any style of club. And even with said phenomenal swing you will always, and I mean always, have miss-hits. The greatest players to have ever played this game still did not hit it out of the center every single time.
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    - Arnold Palmer
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 555 ✭✭



    IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.






    I don't understand why this is always an argument that comes up in favor of MB irons. What is "fact" is if you can learn to hit the middle of any iron type then your swing will be better. In actuality, it's a bit different; you know your swing is improving when you're finding the middle of the club face more and more often, regardless of the club's design.



    The last thing you said is more pertinent, that if you're wearing a dime-sized pattern in any club then the point is moot.



    I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think you'll improve more, or more quickly, if you use an MB iron due to; size of sweet spot, audible feedback, physical feeling feedback on strike, etc. If you are truly intentional in your practice and improvement, then you notice these differences in your strike regardless and you can groove a phenomenal swing with any style of club. And even with said phenomenal swing you will always, and I mean always, have miss-hits. The greatest players to have ever played this game still did not hit it out of the center every single time.




    And there is the truth. There is obviously a lot going on as well in terms of shaft etc. Most SGI irons comes with super light shafts in the and I've seen testing indicating you might be more inclined to deliver the club toe down etc because of droop. I don't really know. What I do know is for me there is a point of diminishing return. My dad has AP1 and they don't feel any more "forgiving" than my AP2. When I hit my friend's tournament blades there is a difference between those and my AP2 though..



    OP if you decide your experiment works let me know and I'll take those 785 off your hands image/clapping.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':clapping:' />
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  • bub72ckbub72ck Members Posts: 2,456 ✭✭



    IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.






    I don't understand why this is always an argument that comes up in favor of MB irons. What is "fact" is if you can learn to hit the middle of any iron type then your swing will be better. In actuality, it's a bit different; you know your swing is improving when you're finding the middle of the club face more and more often, regardless of the club's design.



    The last thing you said is more pertinent, that if you're wearing a dime-sized pattern in any club then the point is moot.



    I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think you'll improve more, or more quickly, if you use an MB iron due to; size of sweet spot, audible feedback, physical feeling feedback on strike, etc. If you are truly intentional in your practice and improvement, then you notice these differences in your strike regardless and you can groove a phenomenal swing with any style of club. And even with said phenomenal swing you will always, and I mean always, have miss-hits. The greatest players to have ever played this game still did not hit it out of the center every single time.




    I agree. I have never understood practicing with a set of clubs that are different than what you use in competition. I want to spend as much as time as possibly can with the clubs I will use in competition. I want to know every nuance as much as possible. Whats the trajectory like on full shots, half shots, into wind, down wind. I ordered the 6-PW with weaker lofts (AP2s) so I could match them up with the combo set I had before. I hit the ball plenty far enough and don't to sacrifice continuity of my game over the last 10 just to hit it a bit longer. I did leave the 4 and 5 iron factory lofts so I could squeeze a little more distance out of them since I don't carry a 3 iron.
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  • bub72ckbub72ck Members Posts: 2,456 ✭✭

    bub72ck wrote:



    I agree with most of that above^



    But I will say that there are two different mindsets and moves for each type iron. It's not blade or cb. But rather vertical cog and sole width.



    You cannot play a wide sole higher Vcog iron exactly like a narrow sole low COG MB. If you do one of two things happens.



    You're hitting the wide sole iron well and the thin one you're digging holes. You have to hit more steeply into some of these higher cog new irons.



    Or you're hitting the narrow sole well with a shallower aoa and the wide sole one suffers. Especially if it's hard ground. Lots of thin shots.



    Then there's the aspect of how you see shots. What type courses you play. Etc. lots of newer irons are hard to hit a real hook with. Not this pull hook from over the top like most hacks posses. But a real , start 49 yards right and come back left hook. Or the big high fade over an old growth tree. If you play a tight course you're going to need these two shots every round. It's possible. But it's harder to do. I flip flop quite a bit in my mind on this. On perfect days where you're playing from the fairway and can play gentle draws and fades the new stuff is great. But from behind obstacles they require more work. In the wind they require more work. So for me it comes out to be a real wash. Now I understand that some folks who don't control he ball will want higher and straight. And will " take their medicine " from behind things. That's cool.



    I will also add that a thin soled iron does technically help your swing. Like any of the small training aid irons sold. If you can hit the small iron flush and without taking pelts 6 inches deep you know you're swinging well. That iron will demands you adjust to it. Most wide soled irons will mask the aoa portion somewhat. Unless you live in soupy areas of the country where it's casuasl water all year. Just hard to argue against that. IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.





    None of that applies to the OP. As a plus guy he will find the middle of anything. I just mean in general terms you can't say that the same swing works for all irons. If it did why would there be so many choices ? You're changing for either whether you realize it or not.




    But how much are you really having to "work" the ball in a round. I don't see it. MAYBE 1 or 2 shots at most. Even on tight courses you can generally favor a consistent shot pattern. The guys on tour may be working the ball on most every shot but the average scratch or + handicapper is not good enough to do that. A scratch golfer is much closer in ability to a 5 than a +5.




    I gues you have to define " work".



    I define it as hitting the shape the shot calls for including wind etc. if that's the case then it's every shot no ?



    What shot calls for nothing ?



    And before someone calls the " I can move any iron " out. Sure. I can too as a 1 shot trick artist. I'm talking abstract ease. As in assuming middle contact , then the play attitude for each style iron is different. Some don't get that. The guy who plays an mb to a 3-4 iron doesn't play smash and find golf most likely. He's playing chess vs checkers.



    And I don't buy they " you need length " either. I can point you to a 70 some odd year old pga master who plays 3-pw in various brands of mb and simply doesn't miss. But he's had heart surgery and has no speed. None. Center contact for him with a 3 iron is still 175 -180 yards.



    Point is contact is the key. Period. If that's center then all we're talking about is trajectory and feel preferences.




    I guess my game is just over simplified. I don't look at every shot with a specific shape in mind other than my traditional go-to shot shape. That is a fade with the driver and draw with the irons. If the wind is right to left I'm not trying to cut an iron back into the wind. I will aim a little more right and and let the wind carry my ball back to the left. Again, maybe it's over simplified but its worked for me all these years. I can work my irons left to right but it's not nearly as accurate and confidence can be lacking if that shot is really difficult. In wind I am looking for the center of the green on every hole. Odds are I am going to score decently well and have a chance. If its a tournament I'm not a pro so most likely the other competitors are struggling with accuracy in the wind just like me. None of us are pros after all.
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,283 ✭✭
    playa wrote:
    Opposite here.



    Sick of sloppy inconsistent results with GI shovels, I've decided to go back to my roots. Went to a second hand shop without any real expectations as I have the unusual preference for regular shafts in the irons. Saw a set of Cleveland CG1 tours in mint condition. Pulled one out expecting to see the customary S300 sticker on the shaft, but to my surprise they had R300s. Closer inspection revealed 1/2 inch long and new mid size Pure grips. These could have been custom made for me. Anyway there was no net so I couldn't hit them, but $250 lafter I'm the proud owner of a mint set of combo CB/blades.




    How much does shaft flex have to do with a perfect strike?
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,283 ✭✭
    bub72ck wrote:



    I agree with most of that above^



    But I will say that there are two different mindsets and moves for each type iron. It's not blade or cb. But rather vertical cog and sole width.



    You cannot play a wide sole higher Vcog iron exactly like a narrow sole low COG MB. If you do one of two things happens.



    You're hitting the wide sole iron well and the thin one you're digging holes. You have to hit more steeply into some of these higher cog new irons.



    Or you're hitting the narrow sole well with a shallower aoa and the wide sole one suffers. Especially if it's hard ground. Lots of thin shots.



    Then there's the aspect of how you see shots. What type courses you play. Etc. lots of newer irons are hard to hit a real hook with. Not this pull hook from over the top like most hacks posses. But a real , start 49 yards right and come back left hook. Or the big high fade over an old growth tree. If you play a tight course you're going to need these two shots every round. It's possible. But it's harder to do. I flip flop quite a bit in my mind on this. On perfect days where you're playing from the fairway and can play gentle draws and fades the new stuff is great. But from behind obstacles they require more work. In the wind they require more work. So for me it comes out to be a real wash. Now I understand that some folks who don't control he ball will want higher and straight. And will " take their medicine " from behind things. That's cool.



    I will also add that a thin soled iron does technically help your swing. Like any of the small training aid irons sold. If you can hit the small iron flush and without taking pelts 6 inches deep you know you're swinging well. That iron will demands you adjust to it. Most wide soled irons will mask the aoa portion somewhat. Unless you live in soupy areas of the country where it's casuasl water all year. Just hard to argue against that. IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.





    None of that applies to the OP. As a plus guy he will find the middle of anything. I just mean in general terms you can't say that the same swing works for all irons. If it did why would there be so many choices ? You're changing for either whether you realize it or not.




    But how much are you really having to "work" the ball in a round. I don't see it. MAYBE 1 or 2 shots at most. Even on tight courses you can generally favor a consistent shot pattern. The guys on tour may be working the ball on most every shot but the average scratch or + handicapper is not good enough to do that. A scratch golfer is much closer in ability to a 5 than a +5.




    I gues you have to define “ work”.



    I define it as hitting the shape the shot calls for including wind etc. if that’s the case then it’s every shot no ?



    What shot calls for nothing ?



    And before someone calls the “ I can move any iron “ out. Sure. I can too as a 1 shot trick artist. I’m talking abstract ease. As in assuming middle contact , then the play attitude for each style iron is different. Some don’t get that. The guy who plays an mb to a 3-4 iron doesn’t play smash and find golf most likely. He’s playing chess vs checkers.



    And I don’t buy they “ you need length “ either. I can point you to a 70 some odd year old pga master who plays 3-pw in various brands of mb and simply doesn’t miss. But he’s had heart surgery and has no speed. None. Center contact for him with a 3 iron is still 175 -180 yards.



    Point is contact is the key. Period. If that’s center then all we’re talking about is trajectory and feel preferences.




    Plenty of shots call for “nothing” special. If you hit a 2 yard draw 99% of the time then play it. What’s the point in forcing a fade when you don’t need to. I don’t necessarily “work” the ball a lot but I do play shots and don’t need any certain club to do it.
  • rusty380rusty380 Members Posts: 85 ✭✭
    I'm off 2 and play blades, I like the look at address feel my dispersion is tighter however know I am giving up on some forgiveness. I had cases when I played AP2's where i'd get shots of consistant strike just coming off a touch hotter than others, my front/back dispersion feels worlds tighter with MB's unless of course i catch one a bit off the toe and lose more yards than i would with an alternative.



    I'm not blinded by blades though, look at Titleist tour players alone, most seem to opt for the AP2's over MB's, there better than i'll ever be and yet they still welcome this additional level of forgiveness whilst still being extremely workable and versatile.



    I may lose a shot here and there with blades on poorly struck shots that could have been avoided but they genuinely fill me with confidence at address and I feel I play some of my better golf when I play blades instead of other players irons like the AP2 for instance. I pick up one of my old AP2's now and it just feels clunky and doesn't inspire me at all.
  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,283 ✭✭
    rusty380 wrote:
    I'm off 2 and play blades, I like the look at address feel my dispersion is tighter however know I am giving up on some forgiveness. I had cases when I played AP2's where i'd get shots of consistant strike just coming off a touch hotter than others, my front/back dispersion feels worlds tighter with MB's unless of course i catch one a bit off the toe and lose more yards than i would with an alternative.



    I'm not blinded by blades though, look at Titleist tour players alone, most seem to opt for the AP2's over MB's, there better than i'll ever be and yet they still welcome this additional level of forgiveness whilst still being extremely workable and versatile.



    I may lose a shot here and there with blades on poorly struck shots that could have been avoided but they genuinely fill me with confidence at address and I feel I play some of my better golf when I play blades instead of other players irons like the AP2 for instance. I pick up one of my old AP2's now and it just feels clunky and doesn't inspire me at all.




    Fair enough
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 555 ✭✭
    rusty380 wrote:


    I'm off 2 and play blades, I like the look at address feel my dispersion is tighter however know I am giving up on some forgiveness. I had cases when I played AP2's where i'd get shots of consistant strike just coming off a touch hotter than others, my front/back dispersion feels worlds tighter with MB's unless of course i catch one a bit off the toe and lose more yards than i would with an alternative.



    I'm not blinded by blades though, look at Titleist tour players alone, most seem to opt for the AP2's over MB's, there better than i'll ever be and yet they still welcome this additional level of forgiveness whilst still being extremely workable and versatile.



    I may lose a shot here and there with blades on poorly struck shots that could have been avoided but they genuinely fill me with confidence at address and I feel I play some of my better golf when I play blades instead of other players irons like the AP2 for instance. I pick up one of my old AP2's now and it just feels clunky and doesn't inspire me at all.




    The new ones are nicely shaved down. Very hard to tell the difference between them and CB/MB at address.
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  • jecarnljecarnl Members Posts: 94 ✭✭
    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.
  • augustgolfaugustgolf Golf with dignity Coastal NCMembers Posts: 3,898 ✭✭
    [sharedmedia=core:attachments:4898244]
    Pings from the beginning

    OGA member 1415
    or is it 1514...
    I don't remember exactly
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 555 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 1:03pm #204
    jecarnl wrote:


    If you believe that a CB helps you more than a MB than it does.




    If you believe in scientific studies then it does on mishits.
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  • uwhockey14uwhockey14 Members Posts: 258 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    I wouldn't even know where to start to hit a cavity back iron, I was 14 and a 10 handicap the last time I played an Iron with a cavity back....






    Lol. Like any other club.




    Doesn't work that way, cavity back's are way less workable, usually have completely different turf interaction and usually a lighter swing weight.... for someone who has played muscle back blades for as long as I have, the golf swing changes when you put a cavity back iron in my hands, its unavoidable.... especially if you want to shape the ball....
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,809 ✭✭



    IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.






    I don't understand why this is always an argument that comes up in favor of MB irons. What is "fact" is if you can learn to hit the middle of any iron type then your swing will be better. In actuality, it's a bit different; you know your swing is improving when you're finding the middle of the club face more and more often, regardless of the club's design.



    The last thing you said is more pertinent, that if you're wearing a dime-sized pattern in any club then the point is moot.



    I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think you'll improve more, or more quickly, if you use an MB iron due to; size of sweet spot, audible feedback, physical feeling feedback on strike, etc. If you are truly intentional in your practice and improvement, then you notice these differences in your strike regardless and you can groove a phenomenal swing with any style of club. And even with said phenomenal swing you will always, and I mean always, have miss-hits. The greatest players to have ever played this game still did not hit it out of the center every single time.




    I didn’t say you would automatically. I said you’d have no choice. You’ll improve or quit playing.



    Which works well for the ocd determined mind like me. I don’t quit anything.



    I realize many would. So it’s that tight rope walk of thinking. For some it absolutely mattters and makes a constant difference. For others they aren’t seeing the same game and therefore using the same shot arsenal anyway. Which is fine.



    I’ve just walked both sides of this fence. I’ve played “ old man golf “ meaning fairways and greens , conservative as I can be , with a spring faced iron all winter. My scoring average hasn’t dropped.



    Grounds drying up , winds blowing , so it’s about time to see what’s what for myself too.



    Curious. Totally unrelated and not a loaded question I promise. But if you use GHIN for handicap ( or can tell me otherwise ) what’s your current scoring average . I myself have not been to a plus cap yet. Hover from 0-1.8 last 6 months. My course is rated a tad conservative in my opinion to the easy side. And I’m pretty sure that’s why it’s hard for me to dip down. I have plenty of rounds in the 60s but a few stinkers in the low 80s still on the board for an average of 74.8.
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,283 ✭✭
    uwhockey14 wrote:
    BiggErn wrote:

    uwhockey14 wrote:
    I wouldn't even know where to start to hit a cavity back iron, I was 14 and a 10 handicap the last time I played an Iron with a cavity back....






    Lol. Like any other club.




    Doesn't work that way, cavity back's are way less workable, usually have completely different turf interaction and usually a lighter swing weight.... for someone who has played muscle back blades for as long as I have, the golf swing changes when you put a cavity back iron in my hands, its unavoidable.... especially if you want to shape the ball....






    I’m sure you’re a world class ball striker that can knock down pins with every shot imaginable. Turf interaction is a preference not performance attribute. The point was the goal is to hit the center of the face like you would with any club. Why do you need to work the ball if you can hit it straight? That is unless you’re way offline and have to curve around obstacles.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,809 ✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    bub72ck wrote:



    I agree with most of that above^



    But I will say that there are two different mindsets and moves for each type iron. It's not blade or cb. But rather vertical cog and sole width.



    You cannot play a wide sole higher Vcog iron exactly like a narrow sole low COG MB. If you do one of two things happens.



    You're hitting the wide sole iron well and the thin one you're digging holes. You have to hit more steeply into some of these higher cog new irons.



    Or you're hitting the narrow sole well with a shallower aoa and the wide sole one suffers. Especially if it's hard ground. Lots of thin shots.



    Then there's the aspect of how you see shots. What type courses you play. Etc. lots of newer irons are hard to hit a real hook with. Not this pull hook from over the top like most hacks posses. But a real , start 49 yards right and come back left hook. Or the big high fade over an old growth tree. If you play a tight course you're going to need these two shots every round. It's possible. But it's harder to do. I flip flop quite a bit in my mind on this. On perfect days where you're playing from the fairway and can play gentle draws and fades the new stuff is great. But from behind obstacles they require more work. In the wind they require more work. So for me it comes out to be a real wash. Now I understand that some folks who don't control he ball will want higher and straight. And will " take their medicine " from behind things. That's cool.



    I will also add that a thin soled iron does technically help your swing. Like any of the small training aid irons sold. If you can hit the small iron flush and without taking pelts 6 inches deep you know you're swinging well. That iron will demands you adjust to it. Most wide soled irons will mask the aoa portion somewhat. Unless you live in soupy areas of the country where it's casuasl water all year. Just hard to argue against that. IF you can learn to hit he middle of a small iron. You're swing will be better. That's fact. Or you can pepper the entire grooves area of a big iron and say " im getting help ". If you're wearing a dime in the big iron then it's a moot deal.





    None of that applies to the OP. As a plus guy he will find the middle of anything. I just mean in general terms you can't say that the same swing works for all irons. If it did why would there be so many choices ? You're changing for either whether you realize it or not.




    But how much are you really having to "work" the ball in a round. I don't see it. MAYBE 1 or 2 shots at most. Even on tight courses you can generally favor a consistent shot pattern. The guys on tour may be working the ball on most every shot but the average scratch or + handicapper is not good enough to do that. A scratch golfer is much closer in ability to a 5 than a +5.




    I gues you have to define “ work”.



    I define it as hitting the shape the shot calls for including wind etc. if that’s the case then it’s every shot no ?



    What shot calls for nothing ?



    And before someone calls the “ I can move any iron “ out. Sure. I can too as a 1 shot trick artist. I’m talking abstract ease. As in assuming middle contact , then the play attitude for each style iron is different. Some don’t get that. The guy who plays an mb to a 3-4 iron doesn’t play smash and find golf most likely. He’s playing chess vs checkers.



    And I don’t buy they “ you need length “ either. I can point you to a 70 some odd year old pga master who plays 3-pw in various brands of mb and simply doesn’t miss. But he’s had heart surgery and has no speed. None. Center contact for him with a 3 iron is still 175 -180 yards.



    Point is contact is the key. Period. If that’s center then all we’re talking about is trajectory and feel preferences.




    Plenty of shots call for “nothing” special. If you hit a 2 yard draw 99% of the time then play it. What’s the point in forcing a fade when you don’t need to. I don’t necessarily “work” the ball a lot but I do play shots and don’t need any certain club to do it.




    Again. I didn’t say need. Of course you can play shots with the 790.



    But I disagree with the idea that your stock shot isn’t a case of working the ball. We all play for some movement. Some of us can move it both ways with the same unconscious mind you hit that small draw with . If you also had a 3 yard fade on command , wouldn’t you use it to a left pin ? Of course you would. Then you’d consider which iron allowed both to be used effectively. People think that “ working the ball “ means both ways. Not necessarily. It can be any combo. And everyone who gets it airborne plays for some shape or another.



    And I’m still currently playing the i500. I do move them both ways. But it is really fade biased compared to my mb set ( same shafts etc ) why ? It’s advertised as designed to hit it straight. And it does.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,809 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 1:22pm #209
    For anyone doubting the importance of turf interaction. Read this thread. Many much smarter folks posting with thoughts and proof , showing how the myth that the ball is long gone and uneffected by how the club goes through the ground or off a mat , isn’t really as cut and dry as the old wives tale claims.



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1746262-spin-off-of-mats-vs-grass-what-is-the-technical-cause/page__pid__18695770__st__120#entry18695770
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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,204 ✭✭
    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:


    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.




    Obviously I'm not advocating trying to bomb it on tracks like that. My inlaws own a house at a very tricky course in Florida that you have to be extremely defensive on. OB everywhere and tee shots so tight that you are forced to hit iron even if it leaves you a long club in. My friend who plays mini tours down there came to play and had to fight just to break 80. It's obviously course dependant but I think it's pretty flawed to say FIR = GIR. It just isn't the case. As per the video I'd rather hit driver (if it's safe to) to have a wedge or 9 iron in from the rough rather than take the safe option and hit a 5 iron from the fairway. I don't go with that theory when I'm playing the above course though as you'll be OB or in water if you do that.




    I track my GIR and FIR, if I'm in the right quadrant of fairway after tee shot, my GIR percentage is like 75%, goes way down if I'm out of position in the rough or leave myself a funky lie. Average 8 GIR's can & have been double digits on a course that leave driver in bag till 8th hole and that can be safely used on 6 holes tops. 3W, 5W & 3i get the call on rest (outside of 3 par3's). The 3i is the most reliable of those. So I'll agree to disagree.
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 555 ✭✭
    Nard_S wrote:

    balls_deep wrote:

    Nard_S wrote:


    "Fact is being closer to the green (in general) is going to mean lower scores and more GIRs. "



    ​And that's done off the tee and in most cases with a Driver, or fairway metal, not an iron. Also the mentality of bomb and recover that is so ever present even on the Tour is highly flawed especially if you play wooded and crooked tracks. Pro's bomb it big but the ones who win find the proper side of fairway and leave the ball at a good angle and on a good lie.




    Obviously I'm not advocating trying to bomb it on tracks like that. My inlaws own a house at a very tricky course in Florida that you have to be extremely defensive on. OB everywhere and tee shots so tight that you are forced to hit iron even if it leaves you a long club in. My friend who plays mini tours down there came to play and had to fight just to break 80. It's obviously course dependant but I think it's pretty flawed to say FIR = GIR. It just isn't the case. As per the video I'd rather hit driver (if it's safe to) to have a wedge or 9 iron in from the rough rather than take the safe option and hit a 5 iron from the fairway. I don't go with that theory when I'm playing the above course though as you'll be OB or in water if you do that.




    I track my GIR and FIR, if I'm in the right quadrant of fairway after tee shot, my GIR percentage is like 75%, goes way down if I'm out of position in the rough or leave myself a funky lie. Average 8 GIR's can & have been double digits on a course that leave driver in bag till 8th hole and that can be safely used on 6 holes tops. 3W, 5W & 3i get the call on rest (outside of 3 par3's). The 3i is the most reliable of those. So I'll agree to disagree.




    Yeah but I'm not comparing a 7 iron from the fairway to a 7 iron from the rough or funky lie. Driver vs 3 iron (hole dependant of course) could mean you're hitting PW instead of 7 iron. That's a big difference. 3 wood vs driver ending up in hitting 6 iron vs 7 iron I'd take the safer play all day. I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I'm not advocating playing recklessly. I'm just saying your statistical analysis is not considering 120 yards from the rough to 165 yards from the fairway. I'm take 120 from the rough all day.
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