I’m giving up Blades... sort of...

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,207 ✭✭

    @nsxguy said:

    @Nard_S said:
    There is Iron Byron data and it can be Googled. But what's the point? You either swing with R&T and some sense of connection or you don't. You execute or you don't. Game improvement begins and end at the toes and tips of fingers and most often goes awol between the ears. You can do all of it with newest SGI or your grandpa's Hogan's. I can hit like **** and figure it out w/ MB's but cannot say the same for my tech laden Ti metals. It's obfuscation of reality, a head fake to get all anal about the MOI at the end of a shaft. Might be helping the 'between the ears' thing more than anything, and if so, that's fine. That's part of the real game, the tech not so much.

    No, you're (one of those who) obfuscates reality. The REALITY is that at least 90% of those who play golf either do not have the time, talent, or both, to get that good to where the so called better(?) feedback of blades would DO them any good, if, in fact, they actually DO you any good.

    The REALITY is the benefits of perimeter weighting can NOT be denied. Tennis players played with "blades" in the distant past. Then racket technology allowed them to be built larger, lighter, more forgiving and more powerful, ALL due to perimeter weighting. When the rackets got "too" big they then became useful to only older players who need the additional power of the extra large rackets at the expense of some control. The youngsters didn't need all that power and in fact it was a detriment.

    Although I don't watch (or play) tennis anymore, I'd bet NOT ONE player, of ANY skill level, plays the old (wooden) "blade" racket anymore except for the same reasons some golfers play wood heads and shafts,,,,,, for the novelty/nostalgia of it. And i doubt older rackets are even made anymore. All there are now are mid-sized and over-size rackets.

    As for golf, more and more PROS are moving to player's CBs, presumably the best of both worlds and mirroring the tennis players' move to mid-size. Soon they may have no choice unless they get a custom builder to build them.

    Can't think of a single Tour Pro anymore that uses a blade putter with the sole exception of Corey Pavin still using his "trusty" Bullseye. Anybody (else) wonder why that is ? With a 3 inch to maybe 2 foot backstroke ??? Such a short stroke the pros need forgiveness ????? In a putter ?????

    And who here still plays the SLDR, one of the most unforgiving drivers ever made. Not many I imagine. Wonder how many pros after playing unforgiving drivers ? Not many I imagine.

    Even the WRX "God of Blades" once said "MBs are more workable, CBs are more forgiving".

    Play whatever you want. It's still a semi-free country.

    CB irons are good for maybe 1 to 2 off your index. That's about it.The bulk of scoring is metals, wedge and putter,, half your iron shots should be short irons, so the GI on #7-#3 is there for maybe 5-10 shots a round. Yet all one hears is "gotta have GI in those irons dude". Um, no I don't, because the low lying fruit of score is elsewhere. And of every solid scratch player I've played with the irons were the least common of things they shared. So you can believe Spieth and Bubba play GI grind CB's if it makes you feel better but the truth is they don't. You can ignore that tennis courts went dead with the power racquet but as for me I'll keep it real and understand real improvement stops at the hands and feet embrace as much or as little tech as I desire. It is a game and if I shot 98 tomorrow or 68 the week after it means absolutely zero to my life. If I actually semi-master the skill set to play it competently it means everything. MOI of of irons is made out to be most epic of advancements, it was in 1977 and funny thing index's has not really moved at all nor has Ping dominated the Major count since. The ball, the Driver are more consequential than SGI irons and in fact without the ball improvement, SGI does not exist. So if you sling MB's these days you actually do use GI. It's called the ProV. What's maddening in these discussions is that they are held in a context like were running around hitting 3 piece balata wound Tour 100's. We're not, so iron MOI matters a whole lot less than the hyperbolic rhetoric it merits.

  • avguyavguy Replacement Player Sonoran Desert, AZMembers Posts: 1,059 ✭✭

    Updating my journey here on switching back n forth between irons of MB or not......
    I decided to part ways with two sets of forged 1-pc. MB irons that were beauts and replace them with a GI Cavity and a Players Distance hollow filled MB. Gone are gorgeous Honma TW727M and Mizuno MP-32. What I truly think made me want some easiness has been touched on these threads - Shafts!!! I had 128g & 122g steel in those sets, respectfully.

    I was not interested in reshafting and having tip wts. being used to keep SW as I really just wanted to go all the way down into iron sets max wt. of 110g shafts. So the TM in my bag sigs are that - and they are remarkably different irons than my previous MB forged. They are kinda easy on me with shafts of 107 & 110g each.

    I did hold onto one set of MB forged as it is shafted in something I still don't feel beat down with at 115g in the set. After a whole month of hitting TM more "forgiving" sets and lighter shafts, I am going out Monday for a little trip back into my memory feel lane and at least doing my range time with the Callaway Razr MBs and possibly the 18 holes late afternoon as well.

    After a longer follow into this thread, I wonder if I had just gone into new forged MBs and the same shafts I have now in both TM sets if I would be feeling the same change of feel. Flushed (for me) in those forged MBs and heavier shafts is better than flushed with either TM current set - but not aweful or frustrating. I still can play my draw as I prefer at a 90% clip. One thing for certain - the jacked lofts on both TM sets has made it odd on approach shots - former 8 is now a 9, etc....

    BAG ONE:                                                                                                                     BAG TWO:
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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 779 ✭✭

    @bladehunter said:
    Ex> @dubbelbogey said:

    Gautama wrote:

    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.

    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.

    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.

    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?

    Extremely intelligent post. I’ve had this same thought before. And never anyone who will try to answer it. I’ve even argued with myself over it.

    There’s a couple mindsets I can get into playing this game. Sometimes to bludgeon the game with a big hammer. But sometimes I prefer that surgical type approach. My lowest rounds to date are the surgical ones. The ones where I never once felt like I swung hard. To me the big irons ,8 wedges and mallet putters do not fit that type game.

    I don't doubt that the magnitude of difference decreases as you go from a driver to hybrid to irons. The thing is, the same "technology" or "help" that is in a GI (or non-blade) 4 iron is in that set's 9 iron. The main issue is that it's social acceptable (among very good golfers) to use the 4 iron but not the 9 iron. Just like the driver, one may think the trade-offs are worth it for the 4 iron and not the 9 iron, but this is not the same as saying "there's no difference" across iron designs/technology is all made up.

    I would guess that some of the same exists for drivers. Generally, people glamour over every new driver release and how mishits retain more ballspeed, don't go as far offline, etc, etc, etc. Hard for me to believe that all of this is entirely true while there is absolutely no difference in irons. And yes, the pros are generally changing their drivers with every product release (which makes it socially acceptable/believable). But is there really any change or are they just paid to do so (and they know that everything is basically the same / they can get used to it, so just take the $$$ and hit the new driver)?

    Adam Scott played with a 910 briefly and Spieth was slow to move off the 910 and the 915. I'm guessing they wouldn't be doing this if they were giving up more than a handful of yards. In the absence of equipment contracts, my guess is you'd see a lot more older (or currently deemed "inferior") drivers in play too. But just look at the marketing budgets for new drivers and new iterations of blades, and people will believe there that much difference (or lack thereof) in technology/performance.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @bladehunter said:
    Ex> @dubbelbogey said:

    Gautama wrote:

    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.

    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.

    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.

    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?

    Extremely intelligent post. I’ve had this same thought before. And never anyone who will try to answer it. I’ve even argued with myself over it.

    There’s a couple mindsets I can get into playing this game. Sometimes to bludgeon the game with a big hammer. But sometimes I prefer that surgical type approach. My lowest rounds to date are the surgical ones. The ones where I never once felt like I swung hard. To me the big irons ,8 wedges and mallet putters do not fit that type game.

    I don't doubt that the magnitude of difference decreases as you go from a driver to hybrid to irons. The thing is, the same "technology" or "help" that is in a GI (or non-blade) 4 iron is in that set's 9 iron. The main issue is that it's social acceptable (among very good golfers) to use the 4 iron but not the 9 iron. Just like the driver, one may think the trade-offs are worth it for the 4 iron and not the 9 iron, but this is not the same as saying "there's no difference" across iron designs/technology is all made up.

    I would guess that some of the same exists for drivers. Generally, people glamour over every new driver release and how mishits retain more ballspeed, don't go as far offline, etc, etc, etc. Hard for me to believe that all of this is entirely true while there is absolutely no difference in irons. And yes, the pros are generally changing their drivers with every product release (which makes it socially acceptable/believable). But is there really any change or are they just paid to do so (and they know that everything is basically the same / they can get used to it, so just take the $$$ and hit the new driver)?

    Adam Scott played with a 910 briefly and Spieth was slow to move off the 910 and the 915. I'm guessing they wouldn't be doing this if they were giving up more than a handful of yards. In the absence of equipment contracts, my guess is you'd see a lot more older (or currently deemed "inferior") drivers in play too. But just look at the marketing budgets for new drivers and new iterations of blades, and people will believe there that much difference (or lack thereof) in technology/performance.

    its funny ... I have experienced the opposite. You actually get more comments and "peer pressure" from the brain washed folks who cant imagine playing an MB.. comments like " if you had the other half of that 5 iron youd not be short " said to me in a 20 mph wind when i came up short of a ridge on the green , not short of the green . or " how do you hit those so high, arent blades supposed to bring the ball down "? lol most folks havent a clue ...But my Favorite is always " what did you hit there ? ( answer a 7 iron and get ) oh wow i must be feeling good today i hit an 8 ".... said by the guy playing and 8 iron thats loft equaled my 6 iron . and who was 10 yards wide of the green . Same guy doesnt get why im not playing G400 or similar...and will say so anytime i have a bad round ( we all do no matter what we play) .... i dont need to hit an 8 iron 200 yards is why .

    Never once ran into a good player who tried to press someone to play an MB .... its never happened... the only time you hear it even on this site isnt from a good player. Now granted some cant tell the difference between a guy like me arguing the opposite side to show that forgiveness isnt a zero sum game... Its just not... You can have an MB that fits you really well and thus is 'forgiving" and you can have a huge iron that you cant hit out of your shadow thus its "unforgiving" to you. Im never trying to get someone else to do one thing.. I advocate using your own mind and not relying on someone elses experiences or fears.

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  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 779 ✭✭

    @bladehunter said:
    its funny ... I have experienced the opposite. You actually get more comments and "peer pressure" from the brain washed folks who cant imagine playing an MB.. comments like " if you had the other half of that 5 iron youd not be short " said to me in a 20 mph wind when i came up short of a ridge on the green , not short of the green . or " how do you hit those so high, arent blades supposed to bring the ball down "? lol most folks havent a clue ...But my Favorite is always " what did you hit there ? ( answer a 7 iron and get ) oh wow i must be feeling good today i hit an 8 ".... said by the guy playing and 8 iron thats loft equaled my 6 iron . and who was 10 yards wide of the green . Same guy doesnt get why im not playing G400 or similar...and will say so anytime i have a bad round ( we all do no matter what we play) .... i dont need to hit an 8 iron 200 yards is why .

    Never once ran into a good player who tried to press someone to play an MB .... its never happened... the only time you hear it even on this site isnt from a good player. Now granted some cant tell the difference between a guy like me arguing the opposite side to show that forgiveness isnt a zero sum game... Its just not... You can have an MB that fits you really well and thus is 'forgiving" and you can have a huge iron that you cant hit out of your shadow thus its "unforgiving" to you. Im never trying to get someone else to do one thing.. I advocate using your own mind and not relying on someone elses experiences or fears.

    Yeah, I'm not sure on the comments. I think we all probably remember what burns us the most.

    I never know how to handicap the personal preference thing. For example, I prefer the smaller 5 woods even though they are theoretically harder to hit. But at this loft, I think I can make a normal swing and the ball will fly fine. Same with the 22+ degree hybrids. I don't think this will be the case with a 3 wood (15 or less) or a 2/3 hybrid (19* or less), although the problem really is that I just don't have the speed to hit those clubs well (especially the pro or players model). But I understand why some people like certain things even if it doesn't make sense at first glance.

    At the pro level, the performance difference and its impact is very small. Stenson thinks it's worth it. Tiger doesn't. Phil changes his clubs all the time (and has played blades, X-Forged, and a mix). All three would be considered great iron players. I just think what the pros are doing impacts what people believe (i.e. why haven't more people migrated if the tech is better). For all of the talk on how many shots a blade vs. CB will change your index, no one ever brings this up for someone with a 110+ mph swing speed and a 3-hybrid vs. a 3 iron (i.e. someone that has the speed to hit both). The 3-hybrid isn't used very often, and I'd guess its impact on scores is just as small if maybe not smaller than what a CB could save someone over a season (assuming you can get comfortable hitting one at the same efficiency as the MB). But there is an extraordinary amount of time spent on figuring out "what's the best 3-hybrid out there?" Why? My guess is because a) using this club is now an "accepted move" among very good players and b) everyone remembers the shot with 3 hybrid they bombed out of the rough over a bunker to a tucked pin that held the green. No one remembers being 10 feet closer on the ball you just missed ever so much but you were still on the green. The same for driving irons. These are basically some form of a GI 2 iron with a lighter shaft in it. But somehow these clubs have become magical once the pros started playing them.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭
    edited Mar 25, 2019 2:22pm #247

    Probably true on the “ burn the most “. But for me it burns into my memory because of the short sighted element of the comment. Not because it burned with truth.

    Also correct that speed is the dividing line usually. But. That can be overcome if guys are honest with shaft choices. Today’s shafts can get the ball up with very little speed. I’ve used him as an example before. My mentor and regular playing partner is a couple years passed an open heart surgery where he lost a ton of speed. ( his words ) . Also is into his 70s . He plays several mb sets and each are either very light steel or senior or regular flex steel fiber graphite shafts and he plays 3 -pw set and elevates the 3 iron just fine . He is professional and carries no handicap but if I had to guess I’d say plus 2-3 at our home course from the forward tees. So anomalies to that theory exist too .

    On the driving irons and 3 hybrids. I think it’s due to loft creep and the ball. The modern ball is actually harder to elevate with a long iron due to lower spin. Don’t believe me ? Find a balata ball and try it. You can get one up quick. May not go straight but it will fly easy. So today’s 4 iron is a strong 3 to a 2 iron. Today’s driving 2-3 iron is essentially a 1 iron . No shock with today’s ball that help is wanted to get it high enough to use.

    For stenson tiger phil etc. I agree. The irons don’t make the player for sure. But I do know that each has a different swing . For instance stenson would dig ditches with a thin soled iron . He comes in steep and needs the wider sole of that legacy black . I played that iron a whole summer. And you had to go down hard with it to take a good divot. He murders 3 wood for the same reason and struggles with anything teed up for that same reason.

    But I do agree pros drive the am sales market. But I think oems drive pros club choices sometimes.

    You’ll hear a lot of “ most pros play cbs “ spouted. But truth is more than half of the world top 25 play an mb . You’ll also hear “ turf interaction doesn’t matter “. Also BS. I linked to a thread here above ^^that explains in science terms by much smarter people than I why it does matter .

    My point? Find what fits YOU! And don’t be afraid to try it all. “ To measure is to know “ as they say. Only way to measure is to try different combinations. I have. And I know what works for me depending on conditions etc.

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  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 568 ✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @agolf1 said:

    @bladehunter said:
    Ex> @dubbelbogey said:

    Gautama wrote:

    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.

    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.

    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.

    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?

    Extremely intelligent post. I’ve had this same thought before. And never anyone who will try to answer it. I’ve even argued with myself over it.

    There’s a couple mindsets I can get into playing this game. Sometimes to bludgeon the game with a big hammer. But sometimes I prefer that surgical type approach. My lowest rounds to date are the surgical ones. The ones where I never once felt like I swung hard. To me the big irons ,8 wedges and mallet putters do not fit that type game.

    I don't doubt that the magnitude of difference decreases as you go from a driver to hybrid to irons. The thing is, the same "technology" or "help" that is in a GI (or non-blade) 4 iron is in that set's 9 iron. The main issue is that it's social acceptable (among very good golfers) to use the 4 iron but not the 9 iron. Just like the driver, one may think the trade-offs are worth it for the 4 iron and not the 9 iron, but this is not the same as saying "there's no difference" across iron designs/technology is all made up.

    I would guess that some of the same exists for drivers. Generally, people glamour over every new driver release and how mishits retain more ballspeed, don't go as far offline, etc, etc, etc. Hard for me to believe that all of this is entirely true while there is absolutely no difference in irons. And yes, the pros are generally changing their drivers with every product release (which makes it socially acceptable/believable). But is there really any change or are they just paid to do so (and they know that everything is basically the same / they can get used to it, so just take the $$$ and hit the new driver)?

    Adam Scott played with a 910 briefly and Spieth was slow to move off the 910 and the 915. I'm guessing they wouldn't be doing this if they were giving up more than a handful of yards. In the absence of equipment contracts, my guess is you'd see a lot more older (or currently deemed "inferior") drivers in play too. But just look at the marketing budgets for new drivers and new iterations of blades, and people will believe there that much difference (or lack thereof) in technology/performance.

    its funny ... I have experienced the opposite. You actually get more comments and "peer pressure" from the brain washed folks who cant imagine playing an MB.. comments like " if you had the other half of that 5 iron youd not be short " said to me in a 20 mph wind when i came up short of a ridge on the green , not short of the green . or " how do you hit those so high, arent blades supposed to bring the ball down "? lol most folks havent a clue ...But my Favorite is always " what did you hit there ? ( answer a 7 iron and get ) oh wow i must be feeling good today i hit an 8 ".... said by the guy playing and 8 iron thats loft equaled my 6 iron . and who was 10 yards wide of the green . Same guy doesnt get why im not playing G400 or similar...and will say so anytime i have a bad round ( we all do no matter what we play) .... i dont need to hit an 8 iron 200 yards is why .

    Never once ran into a good player who tried to press someone to play an MB .... its never happened... the only time you hear it even on this site isnt from a good player. Now granted some cant tell the difference between a guy like me arguing the opposite side to show that forgiveness isnt a zero sum game... Its just not... You can have an MB that fits you really well and thus is 'forgiving" and you can have a huge iron that you cant hit out of your shadow thus its "unforgiving" to you. Im never trying to get someone else to do one thing.. I advocate using your own mind and not relying on someone elses experiences or fears.

    I'm confused as your sig states you're playing hollow bodied player's distance irons with jacked lofts? Not picking a fight but just because they look like MBs...

    Anyways, I personally agree - I have a friend who is quite a decent golfer and he's using G400. Claims he gets way more forgiveness meanwhile dispersion is way higher than when he was playing blades, he flies greens, and talks all the time about how far they go. I hit the club I know will hit the number I need. No surprises. However, some degree of perimeter weighting is unequivocally beneficial to MOST amateurs. AP2 still gives me feedback but if you're a few mm heel or toe of centre you're going to get almost the same result as a centre strike. That's a good thing- not a bad thing. I still get the feedback and try to adapt but I'm not punished in the same way I was with blades.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭

    @balls_deep said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @agolf1 said:

    @bladehunter said:
    Ex> @dubbelbogey said:

    Gautama wrote:

    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.

    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.

    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.

    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?

    Extremely intelligent post. I’ve had this same thought before. And never anyone who will try to answer it. I’ve even argued with myself over it.

    There’s a couple mindsets I can get into playing this game. Sometimes to bludgeon the game with a big hammer. But sometimes I prefer that surgical type approach. My lowest rounds to date are the surgical ones. The ones where I never once felt like I swung hard. To me the big irons ,8 wedges and mallet putters do not fit that type game.

    I don't doubt that the magnitude of difference decreases as you go from a driver to hybrid to irons. The thing is, the same "technology" or "help" that is in a GI (or non-blade) 4 iron is in that set's 9 iron. The main issue is that it's social acceptable (among very good golfers) to use the 4 iron but not the 9 iron. Just like the driver, one may think the trade-offs are worth it for the 4 iron and not the 9 iron, but this is not the same as saying "there's no difference" across iron designs/technology is all made up.

    I would guess that some of the same exists for drivers. Generally, people glamour over every new driver release and how mishits retain more ballspeed, don't go as far offline, etc, etc, etc. Hard for me to believe that all of this is entirely true while there is absolutely no difference in irons. And yes, the pros are generally changing their drivers with every product release (which makes it socially acceptable/believable). But is there really any change or are they just paid to do so (and they know that everything is basically the same / they can get used to it, so just take the $$$ and hit the new driver)?

    Adam Scott played with a 910 briefly and Spieth was slow to move off the 910 and the 915. I'm guessing they wouldn't be doing this if they were giving up more than a handful of yards. In the absence of equipment contracts, my guess is you'd see a lot more older (or currently deemed "inferior") drivers in play too. But just look at the marketing budgets for new drivers and new iterations of blades, and people will believe there that much difference (or lack thereof) in technology/performance.

    its funny ... I have experienced the opposite. You actually get more comments and "peer pressure" from the brain washed folks who cant imagine playing an MB.. comments like " if you had the other half of that 5 iron youd not be short " said to me in a 20 mph wind when i came up short of a ridge on the green , not short of the green . or " how do you hit those so high, arent blades supposed to bring the ball down "? lol most folks havent a clue ...But my Favorite is always " what did you hit there ? ( answer a 7 iron and get ) oh wow i must be feeling good today i hit an 8 ".... said by the guy playing and 8 iron thats loft equaled my 6 iron . and who was 10 yards wide of the green . Same guy doesnt get why im not playing G400 or similar...and will say so anytime i have a bad round ( we all do no matter what we play) .... i dont need to hit an 8 iron 200 yards is why .

    Never once ran into a good player who tried to press someone to play an MB .... its never happened... the only time you hear it even on this site isnt from a good player. Now granted some cant tell the difference between a guy like me arguing the opposite side to show that forgiveness isnt a zero sum game... Its just not... You can have an MB that fits you really well and thus is 'forgiving" and you can have a huge iron that you cant hit out of your shadow thus its "unforgiving" to you. Im never trying to get someone else to do one thing.. I advocate using your own mind and not relying on someone elses experiences or fears.

    I'm confused as your sig states you're playing hollow bodied player's distance irons with jacked lofts? Not picking a fight but just because they look like MBs...

    Anyways, I personally agree - I have a friend who is quite a decent golfer and he's using G400. Claims he gets way more forgiveness meanwhile dispersion is way higher than when he was playing blades, he flies greens, and talks all the time about how far they go. I hit the club I know will hit the number I need. No surprises. However, some degree of perimeter weighting is unequivocally beneficial to MOST amateurs. AP2 still gives me feedback but if you're a few mm heel or toe of centre you're going to get almost the same result as a centre strike. That's a good thing- not a bad thing. I still get the feedback and try to adapt but I'm not punished in the same way I was with blades.

    Lol. Carefully placed bait.

    No seriously. That’s why I say “ I’ve tried it all so I know what works for me “.

    The i500s I play don’t have jacked lofts. The pw is 48 degrees. Ping sells them in 3 lofts. Mine are just a tad weaker than their “ retro loft” setting. ( 1 degree).

    I’ve played those in the winter months super soupy conditions. And could play them well. The more it dries out and our red clay becomes concrete the less I like them. And I stated this last summer when I bought them. ( see i500 threads ). They require a different strike to play effectively because of the very high vertical COG. They hit the ball lower than my mb sets club for club. ( same shafts

    There are some upsides. Mainly the par 5 and long par 3 performance of the 3-4 irons. From a tee they are easy to hit. 5 iron down there’s no help for me. I’ll likely have a blueprint combo set 5-pw or go back to my titleist MB set soon. I just don’t see any real benefit from the big iron. They aren’t easier to hit overall. And my handicap actually went up initially 2 shots before coming back down. Green in reg stat is near identical ( half shot worse ) and I need a gap wedge with them. I don’t with my mb set. You can saw 20 yards off a pw if you can go down and get it . Harder to do with a wide sole. Just an experiment to pass the winter. And I learned a lot about my swing etc. such as. A bad shot is me. Same as a good. It’s not the club at all. I’ve always knew this about myself and a wedge. I can learn to play any wedge now I know I can learn to play any iron. But then the question becomes. “ do I want to “ ? Eh. Not really.

    I may keep playing this iron. But have never called it an mb. And certainly am not talking about this iron when I say “ surgical “ or “scalpel “... lol. They are the hammer to bludgeon the course to death with.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭

    Also add. Played 716 ap2 for a while and totally lost all feel for anything. Hated those irons in the end. So to each his own. I got zero feedback from them. You can hit them all over the face and not feel different. The i500 feels horrid of you miss the middle. Probably why I can tolerate them. If I have to look down to see where I hit it. That’s a problem. Huge misconception in my opinion on the i500 being a “ distance iron “. Maybe to a degree. But compared to 790 they are not.

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  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 568 ✭✭
    edited Mar 25, 2019 4:04pm #251

    @bladehunter said:

    @balls_deep said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @agolf1 said:

    @bladehunter said:
    Ex> @dubbelbogey said:

    Gautama wrote:

    What's never presented is any controlled, objective, empirical data. Personally, that no such data seems to exist in the business speaks volumes.

    And this is, ultimately, the crux of the issue. There really is no real objective data that has been published. A fair number of pseudo-tests are out there, but nothing that looks very dependable.

    Golf is somewhat unique this way. In baseball, practically anybody who can legally use an a metal or composite bat, does so. In skiing, the same true holds for shaped skis - not a single major manufacturer makes an old-school straight skinny ski anymore. In tennis, nobody plays with wood or steel or aluminum in a standard size frame anymore. Nobody racing bikes seriously is on an old lugged steel from the Italian masters.

    Why? Because it's so **** obvious - night and day obvious - what the new technology is doing for you. Are we golfers somehow unique in that some of us have some self-destructive trait (in terms of playing performance) that no other sport does? I seriously doubt it. Even in golf virtually all of us are playing with modern tech drivers (even if some think a 410cc "mini" driver from 12yrs ago is "old" -hah!) If it were so obvious and the difference were so important to playing effectively, I'd posit nobody would be playing players CBs (which are effectively blades in many cases) or actual blades. So why do we have the situation where we do?

    Extremely intelligent post. I’ve had this same thought before. And never anyone who will try to answer it. I’ve even argued with myself over it.

    There’s a couple mindsets I can get into playing this game. Sometimes to bludgeon the game with a big hammer. But sometimes I prefer that surgical type approach. My lowest rounds to date are the surgical ones. The ones where I never once felt like I swung hard. To me the big irons ,8 wedges and mallet putters do not fit that type game.

    I don't doubt that the magnitude of difference decreases as you go from a driver to hybrid to irons. The thing is, the same "technology" or "help" that is in a GI (or non-blade) 4 iron is in that set's 9 iron. The main issue is that it's social acceptable (among very good golfers) to use the 4 iron but not the 9 iron. Just like the driver, one may think the trade-offs are worth it for the 4 iron and not the 9 iron, but this is not the same as saying "there's no difference" across iron designs/technology is all made up.

    I would guess that some of the same exists for drivers. Generally, people glamour over every new driver release and how mishits retain more ballspeed, don't go as far offline, etc, etc, etc. Hard for me to believe that all of this is entirely true while there is absolutely no difference in irons. And yes, the pros are generally changing their drivers with every product release (which makes it socially acceptable/believable). But is there really any change or are they just paid to do so (and they know that everything is basically the same / they can get used to it, so just take the $$$ and hit the new driver)?

    Adam Scott played with a 910 briefly and Spieth was slow to move off the 910 and the 915. I'm guessing they wouldn't be doing this if they were giving up more than a handful of yards. In the absence of equipment contracts, my guess is you'd see a lot more older (or currently deemed "inferior") drivers in play too. But just look at the marketing budgets for new drivers and new iterations of blades, and people will believe there that much difference (or lack thereof) in technology/performance.

    its funny ... I have experienced the opposite. You actually get more comments and "peer pressure" from the brain washed folks who cant imagine playing an MB.. comments like " if you had the other half of that 5 iron youd not be short " said to me in a 20 mph wind when i came up short of a ridge on the green , not short of the green . or " how do you hit those so high, arent blades supposed to bring the ball down "? lol most folks havent a clue ...But my Favorite is always " what did you hit there ? ( answer a 7 iron and get ) oh wow i must be feeling good today i hit an 8 ".... said by the guy playing and 8 iron thats loft equaled my 6 iron . and who was 10 yards wide of the green . Same guy doesnt get why im not playing G400 or similar...and will say so anytime i have a bad round ( we all do no matter what we play) .... i dont need to hit an 8 iron 200 yards is why .

    Never once ran into a good player who tried to press someone to play an MB .... its never happened... the only time you hear it even on this site isnt from a good player. Now granted some cant tell the difference between a guy like me arguing the opposite side to show that forgiveness isnt a zero sum game... Its just not... You can have an MB that fits you really well and thus is 'forgiving" and you can have a huge iron that you cant hit out of your shadow thus its "unforgiving" to you. Im never trying to get someone else to do one thing.. I advocate using your own mind and not relying on someone elses experiences or fears.

    I'm confused as your sig states you're playing hollow bodied player's distance irons with jacked lofts? Not picking a fight but just because they look like MBs...

    Anyways, I personally agree - I have a friend who is quite a decent golfer and he's using G400. Claims he gets way more forgiveness meanwhile dispersion is way higher than when he was playing blades, he flies greens, and talks all the time about how far they go. I hit the club I know will hit the number I need. No surprises. However, some degree of perimeter weighting is unequivocally beneficial to MOST amateurs. AP2 still gives me feedback but if you're a few mm heel or toe of centre you're going to get almost the same result as a centre strike. That's a good thing- not a bad thing. I still get the feedback and try to adapt but I'm not punished in the same way I was with blades.

    Lol. Carefully placed bait.

    No seriously. That’s why I say “ I’ve tried it all so I know what works for me “.

    The i500s I play don’t have jacked lofts. The pw is 48 degrees. Ping sells them in 3 lofts. Mine are just a tad weaker than their “ retro loft” setting. ( 1 degree).

    I’ve played those in the winter months super soupy conditions. And could play them well. The more it dries out and our red clay becomes concrete the less I like them. And I stated this last summer when I bought them. ( see i500 threads ). They require a different strike to play effectively because of the very high vertical COG. They hit the ball lower than my mb sets club for club. ( same shafts

    There are some upsides. Mainly the par 5 and long par 3 performance of the 3-4 irons. From a tee they are easy to hit. 5 iron down there’s no help for me. I’ll likely have a blueprint combo set 5-pw or go back to my titleist MB set soon. I just don’t see any real benefit from the big iron. They aren’t easier to hit overall. And my handicap actually went up initially 2 shots before coming back down. Green in reg stat is near identical ( half shot worse ) and I need a gap wedge with them. I don’t with my mb set. You can saw 20 yards off a pw if you can go down and get it . Harder to do with a wide sole. Just an experiment to pass the winter. And I learned a lot about my swing etc. such as. A bad shot is me. Same as a good. It’s not the club at all. I’ve always knew this about myself and a wedge. I can learn to play any wedge now I know I can learn to play any iron. But then the question becomes. “ do I want to “ ? Eh. Not really.

    I may keep playing this iron. But have never called it an mb. And certainly am not talking about this iron when I say “ surgical “ or “scalpel “... lol. They are the hammer to bludgeon the course to death with.

    @bladehunter said:
    Also add. Played 716 ap2 for a while and totally lost all feel for anything. Hated those irons in the end. So to each his own. I got zero feedback from them. You can hit them all over the face and not feel different. The i500 feels horrid of you miss the middle. Probably why I can tolerate them. If I have to look down to see where I hit it. That’s a problem. Huge misconception in my opinion on the i500 being a “ distance iron “. Maybe to a degree. But compared to 790 they are not.

    Genuinely wasn't trying to prod was just interested. The 716 AP2 lacked feel big time compared to the new model - part of the reason I switched. The new ones are softer, are way better feel through the turf, feedback, and look (much more blade like in appearance). The i500 did not work for my swing indoors but I'm sure I could make them work outside. For some reason (probably my tendency towards tennis elbow) I tend to shallow out big time when hitting off mats. Have you tried the 716 CB? You would probably love that club... it has just enough help when you miss it by a few mm but feels as good as the MB IMO.

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  • Broessner71Broessner71 Members Posts: 89 ✭✭

    You will have plenty of options to choose from this day and age.

  • BottleCapBottleCap Members Posts: 1,329 ✭✭

    @Nard_S said:

    @nsxguy said:

    @Nard_S said:
    There is Iron Byron data and it can be Googled. But what's the point? You either swing with R&T and some sense of connection or you don't. You execute or you don't. Game improvement begins and end at the toes and tips of fingers and most often goes awol between the ears. You can do all of it with newest SGI or your grandpa's Hogan's. I can hit like **** and figure it out w/ MB's but cannot say the same for my tech laden Ti metals. It's obfuscation of reality, a head fake to get all anal about the MOI at the end of a shaft. Might be helping the 'between the ears' thing more than anything, and if so, that's fine. That's part of the real game, the tech not so much.

    No, you're (one of those who) obfuscates reality. The REALITY is that at least 90% of those who play golf either do not have the time, talent, or both, to get that good to where the so called better(?) feedback of blades would DO them any good, if, in fact, they actually DO you any good.

    The REALITY is the benefits of perimeter weighting can NOT be denied. Tennis players played with "blades" in the distant past. Then racket technology allowed them to be built larger, lighter, more forgiving and more powerful, ALL due to perimeter weighting. When the rackets got "too" big they then became useful to only older players who need the additional power of the extra large rackets at the expense of some control. The youngsters didn't need all that power and in fact it was a detriment.

    Although I don't watch (or play) tennis anymore, I'd bet NOT ONE player, of ANY skill level, plays the old (wooden) "blade" racket anymore except for the same reasons some golfers play wood heads and shafts,,,,,, for the novelty/nostalgia of it. And i doubt older rackets are even made anymore. All there are now are mid-sized and over-size rackets.

    As for golf, more and more PROS are moving to player's CBs, presumably the best of both worlds and mirroring the tennis players' move to mid-size. Soon they may have no choice unless they get a custom builder to build them.

    Can't think of a single Tour Pro anymore that uses a blade putter with the sole exception of Corey Pavin still using his "trusty" Bullseye. Anybody (else) wonder why that is ? With a 3 inch to maybe 2 foot backstroke ??? Such a short stroke the pros need forgiveness ????? In a putter ?????

    And who here still plays the SLDR, one of the most unforgiving drivers ever made. Not many I imagine. Wonder how many pros after playing unforgiving drivers ? Not many I imagine.

    Even the WRX "God of Blades" once said "MBs are more workable, CBs are more forgiving".

    Play whatever you want. It's still a semi-free country.

    CB irons are good for maybe 1 to 2 off your index. That's about it.The bulk of scoring is metals, wedge and putter,, half your iron shots should be short irons, so the GI on #7-#3 is there for maybe 5-10 shots a round. Yet all one hears is "gotta have GI in those irons dude". Um, no I don't, because the low lying fruit of score is elsewhere. And of every solid scratch player I've played with the irons were the least common of things they shared. So you can believe Spieth and Bubba play GI grind CB's if it makes you feel better but the truth is they don't. You can ignore that tennis courts went dead with the power racquet but as for me I'll keep it real and understand real improvement stops at the hands and feet embrace as much or as little tech as I desire. It is a game and if I shot 98 tomorrow or 68 the week after it means absolutely zero to my life. If I actually semi-master the skill set to play it competently it means everything. MOI of of irons is made out to be most epic of advancements, it was in 1977 and funny thing index's has not really moved at all nor has Ping dominated the Major count since. The ball, the Driver are more consequential than SGI irons and in fact without the ball improvement, SGI does not exist. So if you sling MB's these days you actually do use GI. It's called the ProV. What's maddening in these discussions is that they are held in a context like were running around hitting 3 piece balata wound Tour 100's. We're not, so iron MOI matters a whole lot less than the hyperbolic rhetoric it merits.

    It's today's average golfers along with a few golf companies that is the problem.
    I usually play the two munis that we have here in San Diego, Balboa and Torrey Pines and 90 percent of the golfers I've come across insist on playing from the back tees and can't carry a drive more than 250 yards. The second shot is usually a hybrid. The third shot may even be another hybrid. The approach shot then may be an 8 iron to a lob wedge, this is into a par 4.
    A lot of times I don't ever see anything longer than an 8 iron when playing with these guys.
    All these guys have huge swing flaws, usually an inside takeaway and then come across the ball, the ball flights look like they're hitting Balatas, but it's the usual Callaway balls that most bad players play and they spend too much time looking for that cheap Callaway instead of dropping.
    You then have marketing department at Callaway telling them each year that they have the ball/driver/iron/wedge to fix their unplayable swing.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭
    edited Mar 25, 2019 4:20pm #254

    Balls-
    No worries at all. I know how it is on the inter webs. Lol. People say all sorts of things.

    I’ve posted some pics before in the i500 thread of the faces of my short irons. So I won’t do it again here. ( I think it irritates some ). But just to show that I’ve beat the crap out of them and wore the middles out of the short irons. My point with that and this is that I’ve always said that the forgiveness aspect only really helps two sections of people. Those who hit it all over the face and those who need the placebo effect it also brings.

    In other words. If you’re wearing the middle out of an mb and a cb then it boils down to trajectory and feel. Yes ?

    That’s not discounting that the mental aspect is real. Really real.
    But. There’s another side to it. There’s a confidence and a high that comes from shooting low scores with an iron on the bag that some fear. A mental edge if you will.

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  • MilkyButterCutsMilkyButterCuts Members Posts: 848 ✭✭

    Because of this thread I went out and switched to the JPX900 T's and couldn't be happier for what its done for my game. Not as much workability but the added forgiveness on miss hits completely out weighs the fact.

    Thank you OP.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Members Posts: 25,851 ✭✭

    In all fairness and honesty I have to post this behind my previous comments. Lol ( I never have a problem being wrong .... if I am lol).

    Haven’t been able to play in around 8-9 days ( a lot for me ) and I get fidgety quick when that’s the case . But. I’ve practiced every day at home ( I have room to hit driver down ) putt etc. focused on wedges and putting last 4 days and last night and this afternoon before the rain I went back to full swing 7-8 irons and sprinkled in some drivers. Well ....

    I’m going to have to say that the i500 set I’ve built myself just maybe a case of having my cake and eating it too. If that’s possible. It’s The only set of similar irons that I have found that launch from the window I want to see and that I can move around as I want to. Silly to forget that in a few days. But that’s just how it works. So OP I hope you find that type set yourself and hope nobody mistakes my ramblings for anything except a cautionary tale for not listening to anyone but what your own eyes see.

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  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭

    @MilkyButterCuts said:
    Because of this thread I went out and switched to the JPX900 T's and couldn't be happier for what its done for my game. Not as much workability but the added forgiveness on miss hits completely out weighs the fact.

    Thank you OP.

    I love that this thread has helped others as it as helped me. I am extremely antsy to get out and play with the new sticks and see how (if it all) it benefits my game!

    Blade -- there's no 'wrong' in this game, there is only improvement! As long as we are on that path then we are doing the right things. I'm glad that you might have found a little magic in the set you have built, and maybe it's changing the way you think about your game and your set composition. In the end though, if we are shooting lower scores and having fun doing it, then isn't that what we are all after? :smile:

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  • LowDimeLowDime Members Posts: 109 ✭✭

    I gave up my blades last year and i am so happy i did. While i don't play as much as i would like to, ( most of the reason i gave them up) I am enjoying my game when I do get to play. I went from a set of 712mb's to my Mizuno JPx 850 forged and love them.

  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭

    A quick update for anyone who is interested, I've made some tweaks to my bag! Which is scary because I haven't even played my first full round of golf yet.... I was traveling for work last week and made my way to a Golf Galaxy (not a good idea for a club addict and true GolfWRX'er) and saw the new Apex Pro 19 in person. Needless to say, I fell in love with them and am going to switch over to those for my 2019 experiment. I was between these and the Z785 to begin with, so I'm not surprised I flip-flopped. It's all good though as they are still a great, forgiving CB. Please don't chastise me for switching! I also have some other tweaks in the works that I am toying with starting the experiment with -- all more forgiving changes. :smile:

    BUT... with that being said. I have my brand new, never used, Srixon Z-Forged/Z785 combo set on the BST alongside an extra Z585 4-iron and ZU85 2-iron. All brand new and unused. Check my listing out if you're interested and help me subsidize these news expenses, lol!

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    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • wfrogge1wfrogge1 Members Posts: 1,192 ✭✭
    edited Mar 30, 2019 6:50pm #260

    There are so many variables at play with a golf swing its impossible to make statements like GI and SGI irons can help your bad shots. ****, even robot testing the differences are so minimal one would only be able to notice the benefit over 1/2 to a full season. Now with "MY" variables with "MY" swing I can tell you blades do not hurt or help my game from 6 iron down to PW as I am a high ball hitter and have enough club head speed. 5-3 iron things change for most of us due to the loft on the iron, the length, etc and a club with lower CGI and a little weight on the toe is preferred by "ME" at least.

    I am going to replace my 718 AP2s this fall with a combo of the 720 (?) MB line from 9 iron to 7, CB for 6 and 5 iron, and get a hybrid for my 4-3 iron. Finally I am not going with the MB PW and will use a Vokey wedge instead for better sole relief. I have done tests with SGI irons over a good chuck of a golf season and saw ZERO improvement in my score. In fact I felt less comfortable than I would with a more compact head as I was always worried about that knuckleball flyer shot and having all that mass behind the ball for shots that for "ME" required more touch.

    Guess my point is that in general the benefit of a GI/SGI club is minimal especially in mid to short irons. If having that minimal benefit helps ease your mind and the larger looking club makes you more comfortable knock yourself out and buy what you want, but there isn't a right or wrong answer when it comes to buying clubs. As stated above by another poster I have never had a lower handicap player try to "educate" me about how my clubs are hurting my game but I sure do have to 20+ handicappers from time to time tell me how bad my swing is, how my clubs are costing me shots, etc. The difference here are those that have drank the kool-aid and those that can see through the FUD

  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭

    My Apex Pro 19's arrived tonight--they are SO nice looking. I ordered them from Callaway 5-PW with the 5i 1* weak @ 23*, and the rest of the set 2* weak to go 27-31-35-39-43-47. They are now that perfect blend of friendly profile but minimal to absolutely no offset. I encourage anyone to check these irons out whenever they can!

    Getting everything regripped and ready for the first round of the year on April 13!

    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 779 ✭✭

    @wfrogge1 said:
    As stated above by another poster I have never had a lower handicap player try to "educate" me about how my clubs are hurting my game but I sure do have to 20+
    handicappers from time to time tell me how bad my swing is, how my clubs are costing me shots, etc.

    Most of what you say is true. With respect to the above, the blade guys just say stuff like "I could never play with the POS shovels (you are playing wth)," or other derogatory comments. Let's not pretend that EITHER side is treating the other guys better (in general).

    The me/my comments are a real factor. That being said, I do think people from both sides could play whatever if they are willing to put in the time to get accustomed to the different clubs (understand if people don't want to do this). Tiger couldn't hit a frying pan driver for a while but still bombed it with his 975D. But he practiced and got better with the large headed drivers. 10-15 years go probably lots of people said they couldn't replace their 2 iron or 3 iron with a hybrid. But now the pros do it and it's viewed as "acceptable" so others can to.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @wfrogge1 said:
    As stated above by another poster I have never had a lower handicap player try to "educate" me about how my clubs are hurting my game but I sure do have to 20+
    handicappers from time to time tell me how bad my swing is, how my clubs are costing me shots, etc.

    Most of what you say is true. With respect to the above, the blade guys just say stuff like "I could never play with the POS shovels (you are playing wth)," or other derogatory comments. Let's not pretend that EITHER side is treating the other guys better (in general).

    The me/my comments are a real factor. That being said, I do think people from both sides could play whatever if they are willing to put in the time to get accustomed to the different clubs (understand if people don't want to do this). Tiger couldn't hit a frying pan driver for a while but still bombed it with his 975D. But he practiced and got better with the large headed drivers. 10-15 years go probably lots of people said they couldn't replace their 2 iron or 3 iron with a hybrid. But now the pros do it and it's viewed as "acceptable" so others can to.

    In my experience, I've never been derogatory towards anyone's equipment choices and I've certainly never said I "could never play" with someone else's sticks. I would hope you have never played with someone who genuinely called someone's "shovels" a piece of sh**. I actively avoid arrogant golfers who look down on others' equipment or find themselves superior simply because they swiped their credit card for musclebacks instead of something else.

    In fact, I do try to help "educate" other golfers if they ask me my opinion. Typically it's not around what type of iron they play, but more how they are properly gapping their set or utilizing different tools. I might suggest a different loft set up at the lower end, or notice they are struggling in the long end and talk to them about higher lofted woods or hybrids, maybe even lofting up their driver. I don't go around butting into others' business and throwing my opinions on them, but if they ask for my thoughts I am more than happy to have a discussion with them.

    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
  • agolf1agolf1 Members Posts: 779 ✭✭

    @tgoodspe1991 said:
    In my experience, I've never been derogatory towards anyone's equipment choices and I've certainly never said I "could never play" with someone else's sticks. I would hope you have never played with someone who genuinely called someone's "shovels" a piece of sh**. I actively avoid arrogant golfers who look down on others' equipment or find themselves superior simply because they swiped their credit card for musclebacks instead of something else.

    In fact, I do try to help "educate" other golfers if they ask me my opinion. Typically it's not around what type of iron they play, but more how they are properly gapping their set or utilizing different tools. I might suggest a different loft set up at the lower end, or notice they are struggling in the long end and talk to them about higher lofted woods or hybrids, maybe even lofting up their driver. I don't go around butting into others' business and throwing my opinions on them, but if they ask for my thoughts I am more than happy to have a discussion with them.

    Yes, your viewpoints are fairly objective and just trying to discuss the issue. My comment was directed at anyone per se, but more that both sides have a) their flamethrowers and b) people objectively sharing what they've found.

    I would agree that set makeup is probably a bigger deal than iron design in the 30*+ lofts/clubs. At some point, you need either nearly perfect strike consistency or a lot of speed to do anything useful with the club.

    Titleist 915 D4 10.5*, Diamana S+ Blue 60 S-Flex
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 730 ✭✭

    @agolf1 said:

    @tgoodspe1991 said:
    In my experience, I've never been derogatory towards anyone's equipment choices and I've certainly never said I "could never play" with someone else's sticks. I would hope you have never played with someone who genuinely called someone's "shovels" a piece of sh**. I actively avoid arrogant golfers who look down on others' equipment or find themselves superior simply because they swiped their credit card for musclebacks instead of something else.

    In fact, I do try to help "educate" other golfers if they ask me my opinion. Typically it's not around what type of iron they play, but more how they are properly gapping their set or utilizing different tools. I might suggest a different loft set up at the lower end, or notice they are struggling in the long end and talk to them about higher lofted woods or hybrids, maybe even lofting up their driver. I don't go around butting into others' business and throwing my opinions on them, but if they ask for my thoughts I am more than happy to have a discussion with them.

    Yes, your viewpoints are fairly objective and just trying to discuss the issue. My comment was directed at anyone per se, but more that both sides have a) their flamethrowers and b) people objectively sharing what they've found.

    Agree, there's always going to be people that want to throw their opinion at you; good, bad, or ugly.

    It's a reason why I try to stay as positive as possible on here and as constructive as possible. I'm not sure if I always am that way, but I do try. In my opinion, we all would simply love to be better at this game, so why not try and help others achieve that? The game is hard enough as it is without us badgering each other and making it harder!

    “Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated; it satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same
    time rewarding and maddening – and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented."
    - Arnold Palmer
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