A Real Problem for Golf Courses.

I have been debating if posting this topic for the longest time, I know it will be shut down by the overseers shortly but it was in today’s news so here goes...

I was reading the news on my phone while at the DogPark and came across an interesting headline from Politico; Blue States $15 Minimum Wage Push Gets a Jump Start. This is a real problem that keeps my up at night, and something I talk to assistants and interns about because some of them will definitely have to work with.

I do think this would be horrible for the golf industry, especially on the maintenance end of things. I should be more prepared than firing off the hip, but I believe the last average for golf course greenskeepers was 10.82. (If you look it up make sure it only accounts for golf courses, a lot of times it will include landscapers). Granted our club does pay above average, but if 15 was ever mandated in Florida, we couldn’t afford it as things are right now. Golf course superintendents are constantly asked to do more with less, and have done a terrific job across the country (for the most part) of cultivating healthy vibrant turf with fewer budget dollars, older equipment, less water, fewer chemicals, already less labor, and that problem is exasperated by potentially much higher labor costs? I’m on the extreme end of things, we can ride out economic downturns and ensure our staffs do as well, but the smaller public or private clubs that are just getting by, will suffer greatly.

If labor wages, right or wrong, are mandated at a level clubs can’t afford the only solution I see right now is to cut positions to afford what you can. But the job still remains the same, the grass doesn’t know that you have fewer people to maintain it, the golfer sees deteriorating conditions but often doesn’t realize the predicament managers are put in.

If it comes to fruition in my lifetime, then I’m not quite sure how I’ll deal with it to be honest, but we’ll do the best we can with the situation and put forth the best possible golf course conditions.

pass the increased costs onto the consumer, like will happen with all other industries

pass the increased costs onto the consumer, like will happen with all other industries

Yep. Golf will get more expensive, maybe fewer participants. But maybe not, see for reference driver and iron and premium ball cost increases.

There will be greater incentive to mechanize tasks like mowing and providing snacks mid-course. There will be fewer staff for routine tasks.

OP, what other impacts you worried about?

If the minimum wage increases, I think that's a much more palatable dues increase for the members than a lot of others. If it happens, it will be big news, and the members will likely feel it in their own businesses. We'd all just write bigger checks.

Where it's hard is when the greens crew wants to make an investment or spend that the members don't really understand.

This problem has been going on for a long time in American golf, and it’s not just the labor expense line, it’s all costs. And this wouldn’t normally be a problem but greens fees have been stagnant for the last 20-25 years in the US. Only a limited amount of courses have gone up on their fees during that time period, and even most of those courses haven’t increased fees as much as they would like. Meanwhile lots of other courses are cheaper to play today than they were in the past. Even private courses that were charging $25k+ to join have little to no initiation fee just to get more members signed up to pay the monthly nut.

The problem is despite green fees not being significantly more expensive, all of the costs have gone up. Chemicals, labor, red iron, fuel, and everything else a golf course needs to operate has increased in the past 20-25 years. The only redeeming item that hasn’t significantly increased in price is a golf cart fleet. You can more or less but/rent a golf cart fleet for an economical price compared to 25 years ago. Thats a huge benefit to the golf courses because that’s where the golf course really makes the money. Cart fees have increased for the better. It only takes two or three loops for a cart to pay for itself each month.

When expenses go up but revenue doesn’t, you don’t need a CPA to tell you that cake don’t bake.

When these minimum wage laws are enacted are they typically done at the city, county, or state level? Didn’t Seattle institute this and the impact was that many restaurants moved (or closed down) to outside the city as they found it wasn’t feasible to pass expenses on to the customer?

It’s hard enough for golf courses to survive under favorable conditions, but toss in variables like rainy weekends, drought conditions, or doubling of the minimum wage and shutdowns will increase.

The game will continue to become more expensive. It amazes me how many private clubs in South FL have dues now that are greater than $12k annually, and many over $20k, not to mention upfront initiation fees and/or equity buy-in, residency requirements and five figure monthly HOA fees.

I'm seriously concerned that as the baby boom generation ages, dies off, and otherwise fades away from the game, how these places are going to survive. Subsequent generations don't have the population to support these clubs and millennials dont seem interested (at least at the moment) in the club lifestyle. Will be interesting...

I was curious so I decided to jot down a few numbers. I'm not sure how many workers you have, but let's say this affects 15 workers…. so 15 workers x 40 hr week x $5.00 more/hour ($10 -> $15) = $3,000.

Increase membership by $10-15 (200 members x $15 = $3,000, or greens fees by $1 (didn't say if you were a private or public club....I'm sure normal traffic is more then 3,000 rounds/year). Now you have workers feeling like they are 'worth something' that you chose to do that instead of them working with the knowledge that you were fighting against their increase. When some time comes that they have to spend more time than normal (like a storm comes through and you need to clear tree branches from the course for proper play to continue, you may get them to do it more voluntary)...and all is good.

I have been debating if posting this topic for the longest time, I know it will be shut down by the overseers shortly but it was in today’s news so here goes...

 

I was reading the news on my phone while at the DogPark and came across an interesting headline from Politico; Blue States $15 Minimum Wage Push Gets a Jump Start. This is a real problem that keeps my up at night, and something I talk to assistants and interns about because some of them will definitely have to work with.

 

I do think this would be horrible for the golf industry, especially on the maintenance end of things. I should be more prepared than firing off the hip, but I believe the last average for golf course greenskeepers was 10.82. (If you look it up make sure it only accounts for golf courses, a lot of times it will include landscapers). Granted our club does pay above average, but if 15 was ever mandated in Florida, we couldn’t afford it as things are right now. Golf course superintendents are constantly asked to do more with less, and have done a terrific job across the country (for the most part) of cultivating healthy vibrant turf with fewer budget dollars, older equipment, less water, fewer chemicals, already less labor, and that problem is exasperated by potentially much higher labor costs? I’m on the extreme end of things, we can ride out economic downturns and ensure our staffs do as well, but the smaller public or private clubs that are just getting by, will suffer greatly.

 

If labor wages, right or wrong, are mandated at a level clubs can’t afford the only solution I see right now is to cut positions to afford what you can. But the job still remains the same, the grass doesn’t know that you have fewer people to maintain it, the golfer sees deteriorating conditions but often doesn’t realize the predicament managers are put in.

 

If it comes to fruition in my lifetime, then I’m not quite sure how I’ll deal with it to be honest, but we’ll do the best we can with the situation and put forth the best possible golf course conditions.

It went to 15 up here last year and courses easily survived

Bump up fees, reduce other costs, math 101

I actually believe this would be the best thing for you as a super, and here’s why:

1. The minimum wage has slowly creeped up, an $0.80 increase let’s the membership say you just need to figure it out and lower expenses to cover this “nominal” increase.

2. Membership joins bc of the course and it’s maintenance. Most members will pay more to insure the focus of the club remains as excellent as it is.

3. Membership is spending discretionary funds and could/would pay more because of hobbies tend to be the types of expenses with few budgetary restraints. They will simply have fewer $8 coffees to continue to play golf at a well kept course.

If it passes, your membership KNOWS the price has to increase. They will find the money and perhaps even let you budget a guy lost in the past. They won’t have a choice, and the best part is, it’s not your fault. It isn’t a guy who can’t meet a budget (you), it’s external.

That’s my take anyway.

EDIT: it will have huge impact on public courses, I was thinking apecifically of your situation.

I was curious so I decided to jot down a few numbers. I'm not sure how many workers you have, but let's say this affects 15 workers…. so 15 workers x 40 hr week x $5.00 more/hour ($10 -> $15) = $3,000.

 

Increase membership by $10-15 (200 members x $15 = $3,000, or greens fees by $1 (didn't say if you were a private or public club....I'm sure normal traffic is more then 3,000 rounds/year). Now you have workers feeling like they are 'worth something' that you chose to do that instead of them working with the knowledge that you were fighting against their increase. When some time comes that they have to spend more time than normal (like a storm comes through and you need to clear tree branches from the course for proper play to continue, you may get them to do it more voluntary)...and all is good.

3,000 per week would be 156,000 per full year (down south), 78,000 per half year (up north).

Did you mean 3,000 rounds per week? And is the membership fee increase per week?

As my brother-in-law, a small business owner, explained it, it's not so much bumping pay to $15 and hour, it's what do you now pay the people who are already getting that or more.

As my brother-in-law, a small business owner, explained it, it's not so much bumping pay to $15 and hour, it's what do you now pay the people who are already getting that or more.

This is the real problem. If you're paying $10/hour in a place where minimum wage is $7.25, the increase isn't from $10 to $15, it's from $10 to something like $18 - $20. It's going to put pressure on all lower-wage roles.

A simple solution is to get rid of your non essential employees. Well, not technically, but instead of calling them employees, call them 1099 sub contractors.

For example, you have a driving range guy, who used to be an employee. Now, instead of paying them 10-15$/hr for 10 hrs, you cut them a check for the day or the action. For example setting up a driving range in the morning is worth 25$, cleaning it up is worth $75. The same guy who used to work 10 hrs a day for 10$/hr is now making the same amount, and receive a 1099. They are not hourly workers so minimum wage will not affect them, as well as lowering costs for the club due to not having to deal with employee benefits, insurances, etc...

This method is used, although with alot more red tape, in the construction industry. When they build a building, they do not have a brick layer, pipe fitters, garage door guys on salary, they sub it out to each individual company.

This circumvents these absurd minimum wage laws and can be applied to nearly every position for the exception of management. Employees take home more money, companies pay less which is passed onto the consumer.

Ooops, my (big) mistake. I was <<incorrectly>> thinking of that as a 'per year' basis, but Fade you are correct, that would be an increase of $3,000/week (didn't get to finish my morning coffee before thinking it out!). That is substantial and yes, would be something >$150,000/year. I understand that trafficked public courses can get upwards of 30-50,000 rounds/year which would be $3 more/round (50,000 rounds) up to $10 more/round (15,000 rounds/yr). Private clubs can get substantially less traffic, but the fee schedule is considerably higher.

I was curious so I decided to jot down a few numbers. I'm not sure how many workers you have, but let's say this affects 15 workers…. so 15 workers x 40 hr week x $5.00 more/hour ($10 -> $15) = $3,000.

 

Increase membership by $10-15 (200 members x $15 = $3,000, or greens fees by $1 (didn't say if you were a private or public club....I'm sure normal traffic is more then 3,000 rounds/year). Now you have workers feeling like they are 'worth something' that you chose to do that instead of them working with the knowledge that you were fighting against their increase. When some time comes that they have to spend more time than normal (like a storm comes through and you need to clear tree branches from the course for proper play to continue, you may get them to do it more voluntary)...and all is good.

 

3,000 per week would be 156,000 per full year (down south), 78,000 per half year (up north).

 

Did you mean 3,000 rounds per week? And is the membership fee increase per week?

well i guess i will chime in on this. i own my own business and have skilled labor and pay more than minimum wage and more than 15 per hour. i also work at a golf course part time on the maint. side and get $10.50 per hour. this is a non skilled position. you have high school kids and people like me doing this job for a side gig so we can play free golf on a top notch golf course. golf course maint. is not a career job unless you are the SI. the costs of running my business keeps going up and up. the insurance on my business just went up 33% on me. i am now raising the price of my services to the customer. i do not want to hurt my employees at all. they have families so i do my best so i will see what happens this year. my thing is while working at the golf course i see people who do not want to work. period. you walk behind a mower, you rake bunkers, you carry a back pack leaf blower and God forbid you may have to pick up sticks. during the summer you can get all the overtime you want. i wish i knew of this job in high school. some workers (who don't work there anymore) would come in and go to the other side of the course and just eff off not doing anything but they were the first ones to b**** about pay and hours. strange. now i am a firm believer that you should get paid and you should pay someone what they are worth(it's in the bible if your christian). the golf course industry is about to change with pay and the only thing that will have to happen is raise the cost to the customer.

 

This method is used, although with alot more red tape, in the construction industry. When they build a building, they do not have a brick layer, pipe fitters, garage door guys on salary, they sub it out to each individual company.

 

This circumvents these absurd minimum wage laws and can be applied to nearly every position for the exception of management. Employees take home more money, companies pay less which is passed onto the consumer.

As a sub-contractor in construction, I can say that most plumbers, masons, equipment operators, and other workers are paid (and taxed) as employees, not as 1099 subcontractors. Yes, the General Contractor doesn't do it all in-house, most is subcontracted, but we don't employ individuals as 1099 recipients.

pass the increased costs onto the consumer, like will happen with all other industries

Maybe it is as simple as this. But in my experience working in the industry the cost of a round of golf hasn’t significantly increased. For example the club I worked in Orlando was a fairly well traveled resort club right off Disney property. I think peak rate the 6+ years I was there, was $159 with a spike of $179 during PGA Show week. When I started the peak rate was $145 I believe, so it steadily crept up but the peak rate is still $159 so it has stayed pretty stagnant in my opinion.

While a round of golf has stayed stagnant cost of feet and chem, have gone up, water has gone through the roof, everything is becoming more and more expensive on our end there’s going to be a point where consumers will just decide this place isn’t worth it and go play someplace nicer since they’re already paying a higher fee. If that makes sense.

A simple solution is to get rid of your non essential employees. Well, not technically, but instead of calling them employees, call them 1099 sub contractors.

 

For example, you have a driving range guy, who used to be an employee. Now, instead of paying them 10-15$/hr for 10 hrs, you cut them a check for the day or the action. For example setting up a driving range in the morning is worth 25$, cleaning it up is worth $75. The same guy who used to work 10 hrs a day for 10$/hr is now making the same amount, and receive a 1099. They are not hourly workers so minimum wage will not affect them, as well as lowering costs for the club due to not having to deal with employee benefits, insurances, etc...

 

This method is used, although with alot more red tape, in the construction industry. When they build a building, they do not have a brick layer, pipe fitters, garage door guys on salary, they sub it out to each individual company.

 

This circumvents these absurd minimum wage laws and can be applied to nearly every position for the exception of management. Employees take home more money, companies pay less which is passed onto the consumer.

There’s no way that you could legally 1099 a golf course laborer. I don’t think they would meet a single one of the IRS tests (control over their schedule, control of work product, etc.).

i could be wrong but the problem with a 1099 is you can not tell the person when to work. if you tell the person he needs to be there at 9 and pick the range then you can not have a 1099 employee. if you tell a person to plumb a house he will show up and get it done as he sees fit. if you tell him to work 8-5 then he is no longer a 1099

When these minimum wage laws are enacted are they typically done at the city, county, or state level? Didnt Seattle institute this and the impact was that many restaurants moved (or closed down) to outside the city as they found it wasnt feasible to pass expenses on to the customer?

 

Its hard enough for golf courses to survive under favorable conditions, but toss in variables like rainy weekends, drought conditions, or doubling of the minimum wage and shutdowns will increase.

All of the above, but it’s slowly being instituted at state level, there is a national movement though. Also some businesses such as Chick-fil-A and Starbucks are now paying 15 to start.

A simple solution is to get rid of your non essential employees. Well, not technically, but instead of calling them employees, call them 1099 sub contractors.

 

For example, you have a driving range guy, who used to be an employee. Now, instead of paying them 10-15$/hr for 10 hrs, you cut them a check for the day or the action. For example setting up a driving range in the morning is worth 25$, cleaning it up is worth $75. The same guy who used to work 10 hrs a day for 10$/hr is now making the same amount, and receive a 1099. They are not hourly workers so minimum wage will not affect them, as well as lowering costs for the club due to not having to deal with employee benefits, insurances, etc...

 

This method is used, although with alot more red tape, in the construction industry. When they build a building, they do not have a brick layer, pipe fitters, garage door guys on salary, they sub it out to each individual company.

 

This circumvents these absurd minimum wage laws and can be applied to nearly every position for the exception of management. Employees take home more money, companies pay less which is passed onto the consumer.

 

There's no way that you could legally 1099 a golf course laborer. I don't think they would meet a single one of the IRS tests (control over their schedule, control of work product, etc.).

It's legal, it's been done many times. As far as hours worked etc, you sign a contract for a set duration ( i.e. week of 2/16- 2/23), specific duties, etc.

I have been on both ends of this system, it works much better for both parties. It also improves the quality of work performed. With specific dates specified, you must perform at a certain level to sign a new contract. It is better for everyone except for the lazy employees who do little work, which is fine by me and any other employee who has had to pick up the slack of a lazy coworker!

i could be wrong but the problem with a 1099 is you can not tell the person when to work. if you tell the person he needs to be there at 9 and pick the range then you can not have a 1099 employee. if you tell a person to plumb a house he will show up and get it done as he sees fit. if you tell him to work 8-5 then he is no longer a 1099

It's all in the contract. You specify that certain tasks must be completed by certain times, etc. And if you find one of those employees who continually tries to find every loophole, guess what, see ya later!

thanks ferretts for that. i had a conversation with a club pro about this kind of stuff and i kept telling him you guys are going to need to change things up. don't know how but creative thinking.

Remember, It’s not a straight dollar amount based on wage. When my mice was at Microsoft; if I remember correctly, they spent $73k per employee per year. Insurance, benefits, etc. so all those numbers per course go up (I know it won’t be that high).

As for using automated equipment, IMO, that is still a ways off. The greens mower is $45k for 1, but it is over $225k to install the system. Now add in the fact that you need at least one employee to escort it around the course, you just aren’t saving that much money for the initial capital investment. Especially considering you can get a top of the line fro-plex for $35k.

I was curious so I decided to jot down a few numbers. I'm not sure how many workers you have, but let's say this affects 15 workers…. so 15 workers x 40 hr week x $5.00 more/hour ($10 -> $15) = $3,000.

 

Increase membership by $10-15 (200 members x $15 = $3,000, or greens fees by $1 (didn't say if you were a private or public club....I'm sure normal traffic is more then 3,000 rounds/year). Now you have workers feeling like they are 'worth something' that you chose to do that instead of them working with the knowledge that you were fighting against their increase. When some time comes that they have to spend more time than normal (like a storm comes through and you need to clear tree branches from the course for proper play to continue, you may get them to do it more voluntary)...and all is good.

 

I have been debating if posting this topic for the longest time, I know it will be shut down by the overseers shortly but it was in todayâ™s news so here goes...

 

I was reading the news on my phone while at the DogPark and came across an interesting headline from Politico; Blue States $15 Minimum Wage Push Gets a Jump Start. This is a real problem that keeps my up at night, and something I talk to assistants and interns about because some of them will definitely have to work with.

 

I do think this would be horrible for the golf industry, especially on the maintenance end of things. I should be more prepared than firing off the hip, but I believe the last average for golf course greenskeepers was 10.82. (If you look it up make sure it only accounts for golf courses, a lot of times it will include landscapers). Granted our club does pay above average, but if 15 was ever mandated in Florida, we couldnâ™t afford it as things are right now. Golf course superintendents are constantly asked to do more with less, and have done a terrific job across the country (for the most part) of cultivating healthy vibrant turf with fewer budget dollars, older equipment, less water, fewer chemicals, already less labor, and that problem is exasperated by potentially much higher labor costs? Iâ™m on the extreme end of things, we can ride out economic downturns and ensure our staffs do as well, but the smaller public or private clubs that are just getting by, will suffer greatly.

 

If labor wages, right or wrong, are mandated at a level clubs canâ™t afford the only solution I see right now is to cut positions to afford what you can. But the job still remains the same, the grass doesnâ™t know that you have fewer people to maintain it, the golfer sees deteriorating conditions but often doesnâ™t realize the predicament managers are put in.

 

If it comes to fruition in my lifetime, then Iâ™m not quite sure how Iâ™ll deal with it to be honest, but weâ™ll do the best we can with the situation and put forth the best possible golf course conditions.

I’m not fighting against their increase, I don’t care one or the other as long as the job gets done correctly and timely, I’m happy.

But what I am saying with 100 percent certainty, you will see a diminished product and clubs that are just scraping by already will be hurt significantly.

I’m reaching out to buddies that work at Public’s in Orlando now, to gauge their opinion. Because it’s been awhile, I’m used to 40 rounds a day if that and only for November through May.

never mind on that 1099 thing i said. i am also a high school basketball referee. i get assigned a game which is a certain time and get a 1099

I was curious so I decided to jot down a few numbers. I'm not sure how many workers you have, but let's say this affects 15 workers…. so 15 workers x 40 hr week x $5.00 more/hour ($10 -> $15) = $3,000.

 

Increase membership by $10-15 (200 members x $15 = $3,000, or greens fees by $1 (didn't say if you were a private or public club....I'm sure normal traffic is more then 3,000 rounds/year). Now you have workers feeling like they are 'worth something' that you chose to do that instead of them working with the knowledge that you were fighting against their increase. When some time comes that they have to spend more time than normal (like a storm comes through and you need to clear tree branches from the course for proper play to continue, you may get them to do it more voluntary)...and all is good.

 

I have been debating if posting this topic for the longest time, I know it will be shut down by the overseers shortly but it was in today’s news so here goes...

 

I was reading the news on my phone while at the DogPark and came across an interesting headline from Politico; Blue States $15 Minimum Wage Push Gets a Jump Start. This is a real problem that keeps my up at night, and something I talk to assistants and interns about because some of them will definitely have to work with.

 

I do think this would be horrible for the golf industry, especially on the maintenance end of things. I should be more prepared than firing off the hip, but I believe the last average for golf course greenskeepers was 10.82. (If you look it up make sure it only accounts for golf courses, a lot of times it will include landscapers). Granted our club does pay above average, but if 15 was ever mandated in Florida, we couldn’t afford it as things are right now. Golf course superintendents are constantly asked to do more with less, and have done a terrific job across the country (for the most part) of cultivating healthy vibrant turf with fewer budget dollars, older equipment, less water, fewer chemicals, already less labor, and that problem is exasperated by potentially much higher labor costs? I’m on the extreme end of things, we can ride out economic downturns and ensure our staffs do as well, but the smaller public or private clubs that are just getting by, will suffer greatly.

 

If labor wages, right or wrong, are mandated at a level clubs can’t afford the only solution I see right now is to cut positions to afford what you can. But the job still remains the same, the grass doesn’t know that you have fewer people to maintain it, the golfer sees deteriorating conditions but often doesn’t realize the predicament managers are put in.

 

If it comes to fruition in my lifetime, then I’m not quite sure how I’ll deal with it to be honest, but we’ll do the best we can with the situation and put forth the best possible golf course conditions.

 

I’m not fighting against their increase, I don’t care one or the other as long as the job gets done correctly and timely, I’m happy.

But what I am saying with 100 percent certainty, you will see a diminished product and clubs that are just scraping by already will be hurt significantly.

 

I’m reaching out to buddies that work at Public’s in Orlando now, to gauge their opinion. Because it’s been awhile, I’m used to 40 rounds a day if that and only for November through May.

sounds like a super exclusive club then. 40 rounds a day is microscopic.

that's about the same at the course i work at. 35-40 rounds is a busy day

never mind on that 1099 thing i said. i am also a high school basketball referee. i get assigned a game which is a certain time and get a 1099

Referees are actually one of the more interesting corners of FLSA case law. Generally, at higher levels, they’re required to be employees because the level of oversight and supervision is quite high.

High school and below, courts have generally ruled that they can be contractors because of the discretion they have in making calls.

Making golf course laborers 1099s would be a tough sell. They’d have to bring their own tools, have discretion over how the work is done, etc. The super could certainly be 1099’d...but probably not the day labor.

We had a “fun” debate in our regular group (one of the guys is an HR attorney) about our requirements to provide 1099 forms to our caddies.