the tour needs to fix the caddie pay issue

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  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
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    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.
    Posted:
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  • lenman73lenman73  833WRX Points: 178Members Posts: 833
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    One problem I have is Tucan was not a virgin in this. He didn't have a problem with the 900 bucks he got being on Alex Cjeka's bag. (Sorry if I butchered his name) Tucan had been in this rodeo before.



    Now some will point out Matt had nothing but high praise for the guy after the fact. I say why wouldn't he ? He showed up, carried the bag and probly handed him the club a time or two. Why would Matt say anything else ? Was he supposed to say the way I was playing, I could have won with my bag strapped to the back off Steven Hawkings wheelchair. The fact is he did nothing wrong. Was he cheap ? Yes but no law against that with a resort caddy. He honored his commitment. If Tucan didn't like it he should have said something at the start since this was not his first time, but now probably his last.

    For those that insist he should pay more, I hope when your Bill's show up, you don't pull out tour tip calculator app on your phone and go straight 15% but instead make it rain for your server otherwise quit deciding for someone else what they should pay.
    Posted:
  • DON SVODON SVO Hacker in progress...  1147WRX Points: 256Lefty Boomers Posts: 1,147
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    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    So you also feel that this amount was what was fair and would have solved "the problem"... right?
    Posted:
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  • Under2hoursUnder2hours  1498WRX Points: 121Handicap: 13.2Members Posts: 1,498
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    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    Well said and of course us Canadian are all SJW's...... image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />



    It seems this thread is a place where all the Pro-Kuch posters can congregate with out concern for the masses that samed poor Matt to pay the money.



    Curious though why this hasn't been moved to the Heated Topics Section..... Maybe because of the Pro-Kuch leanings?
    Posted:
  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky  2374WRX Points: 789Members Posts: 2,374
    Joined:  #366
    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    How is it not Gillis fault? Kuch and Tucan settles their deal and went about their way, Gillis stuck his nose in the business of a player and his employee for the week to tell him in gillis’ opinion was shirt changed. Then Gillis put the whole thing on blast which then brought in the social media mob and the various media outlets that all pretty much of with rich golfer pays .38% to caddie, rich golfer is ok with $3000/5000 payment.



    This then put pressure on Tucan to get involved and tell some what questionable account of the deal and eventually pressure for Kuchar to cave and pay what everyone else thought was fair.
    Posted:
  • gamesgames Argue for your limitations and they are yours. Des Moines 1857WRX Points: 230Members Posts: 1,857
    Joined:  #367


    Curious though why this hasn't been moved to the Heated Topics Section..... Maybe because of the Pro-Kuch leanings?




    Right out of the playbook!

    When you can't win in the court of public opinion, change the venue so no one can see you lose.

    And, lose badly, BTW...
    Posted:
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  • Under2hoursUnder2hours  1498WRX Points: 121Handicap: 13.2Members Posts: 1,498
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    games wrote:



    Curious though why this hasn't been moved to the Heated Topics Section..... Maybe because of the Pro-Kuch leanings?




    Right out of the playbook!

    When you can't win in the court of public opinion, change the venue so no one can see you lose.

    And, lose badly, BTW...




    Actually WE (and very sarcastic use of the word) WON CONVINCIGLY in the court of public opinion (and amongst PGA golfers, their caddies, PGA brass & in all liklihood Kuch's sponsors) & poor Kuch had to pay up......



    Only seems here on Golfwrx and the fact it hasn't been moved to Heated Topics, that we are taking a beating on this one thread....... image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />
    Posted:
  • lenman73lenman73  833WRX Points: 178Members Posts: 833
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    Before you claim total victory, see how many resort caddies are used in the future.
    Posted:
  • marmooskapaulmarmooskapaul  1427WRX Points: 224Members Posts: 1,427
    Joined:  #370
    We need to abolish tips...on everything!!! There is no need to tip. Set the given price..pay it..and go on your way...I'm sick of all the tipping. No one likes a grey area..set the price/wage...pay the price/wage.
    Posted:
  • FadeFade  1295WRX Points: 223Members Posts: 1,295
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    How many times does it need to be posted that Sergio paid basically someone off the streets $76,000 (according to reports) and certainly way more then $5,000.



    David Faircloth carried the bag, cleaned clubs & pulled the flag and no more.



    Sergio quoted when asked back then (2012 and surprise Sergio's first victory in 4 years too) whether it would be 10%, said no, but he's be very happy.




    Nice for the guy 'off the streets', but that was a slap in the face of professional tour caddies, and especially his own.
    Posted:
  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
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    DON SVO wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    So you also feel that this amount was what was fair and would have solved "the problem"... right?




    It is just common sense.
    Posted:
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  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
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    lenman73 wrote:


    Before you claim total victory, see how many resort caddies are used in the future.




    Another KJW red herring. The only tour pros who are worried about using a resort caddy are the ones dumb enough to pay .38% when they win. Given the publicity of Kuchar's blunder and subsequent mea culpa I'm pretty confident that number is zero.
    Posted:
  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
    Joined:  edited Feb 27, 2019 #374
    GoGoErky wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    How is it not Gillis fault? Kuch and Tucan settles their deal and went about their way, Gillis stuck his nose in the business of a player and his employee for the week to tell him in gillis' opinion was shirt changed. Then Gillis put the whole thing on blast which then brought in the social media mob and the various media outlets that all pretty much of with rich golfer pays .38% to caddie, rich golfer is ok with $3000/5000 payment.



    This then put pressure on Tucan to get involved and tell some what questionable account of the deal and eventually pressure for Kuchar to cave and pay what everyone else thought was fair.




    Blaming Gillis is shooting the messenger.
    Posted:
  • lenman73lenman73  833WRX Points: 178Members Posts: 833
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    This guy settled on 50 grand. Who is to say the next wont try to extort 100. I see it as easier not using one then there is zero worries.
    Posted:
  • DON SVODON SVO Hacker in progress...  1147WRX Points: 256Lefty Boomers Posts: 1,147
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    cdnglf wrote:

    DON SVO wrote:




    So you also feel that this amount was what was fair and would have solved "the problem"... right?




    It is just common sense.




    What about your comment was common sense? Please, elaborate.
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  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
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    DON SVO wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:

    DON SVO wrote:


    So you also feel that this amount was what was fair and would have solved "the problem"... right?




    It is just common sense.




    What about your comment was common sense? Please, elaborate.




    Obviously it was a problem for Kuchar. Numerous articles in golf magazines, getting called out in the mainstream media, and having to issue a very public apology. $50K was the number Ortiz mentioned and Kuchar ultimately said he was going to pay.
    Posted:
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  • bscinstnctbscinstnct  28035WRX Points: 4,301Members Posts: 28,035
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    cdnglf wrote:

    lenman73 wrote:


    Before you claim total victory, see how many resort caddies are used in the future.




    Another KJW red herring. The only tour pros who are worried about using a resort caddy are the ones dumb enough to pay .38% when they win. Given the publicity of Kuchar's blunder and subsequent mea culpa I'm pretty confident that number is zero.




    Agree, there is no reason not to.



    Kuch used one



    And got his first win in 4 years ; )



    Spieth prolly could have and didn't



    And shot +4





    The players will save money using a resort/non-tour caddie. They just need to be smart and sign a deal so their are no misunderstandings.
    Posted:
  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
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    lenman73 wrote:


    This guy settled on 50 grand. Who is to say the next wont try to extort 100. I see it as easier not using one then there is zero worries.




    Slippery slope nonsense. Who is to say he won't try to extort $1M? $10M?



    image.jpg
    Posted:
  • lenman73lenman73  833WRX Points: 178Members Posts: 833
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    It is absolutely not nonsense. What if a fill in now wants the regular caddy pay for a 5th place finish ? All it will take is an outside force like Gillis to get involved again. Then social media gets involved. The battle may have been won for Tucan but I would not be surprised if the war has been lost for the rest if the resort caddies hoping to fill in.



    While I am not saying Kuchar wasn't cheap, I am saying he did nothing wrong and would say that no matter who the player was.
    Posted:
  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5  5705WRX Points: 1,012Members Posts: 5,705
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    cdnglf wrote:

    GoGoErky wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    How is it not Gillis fault? Kuch and Tucan settles their deal and went about their way, Gillis stuck his nose in the business of a player and his employee for the week to tell him in gillis' opinion was shirt changed. Then Gillis put the whole thing on blast which then brought in the social media mob and the various media outlets that all pretty much of with rich golfer pays .38% to caddie, rich golfer is ok with $3000/5000 payment.



    This then put pressure on Tucan to get involved and tell some what questionable account of the deal and eventually pressure for Kuchar to cave and pay what everyone else thought was fair.




    Blaming Gillis is shooting the messenger.


    Why is it any of Gillis's business to even ask and get involved? I mean if it is his business then why stop at caddies? Why not all the workers that supported the tournament? Cabbies and limo drivers, bartenders, waiters etc? And those "volunteers" really getting hosed for no pay and having to buy a uniform to support a multi-billion $ behemoth!
    Posted:
  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky  2374WRX Points: 789Members Posts: 2,374
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    cdnglf wrote:

    GoGoErky wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    How is it not Gillis fault? Kuch and Tucan settles their deal and went about their way, Gillis stuck his nose in the business of a player and his employee for the week to tell him in gillis' opinion was shirt changed. Then Gillis put the whole thing on blast which then brought in the social media mob and the various media outlets that all pretty much of with rich golfer pays .38% to caddie, rich golfer is ok with $3000/5000 payment.



    This then put pressure on Tucan to get involved and tell some what questionable account of the deal and eventually pressure for Kuchar to cave and pay what everyone else thought was fair.




    Blaming Gillis is shooting the messenger.




    Unless Tucan went to Gillis which from what I read wasn’t the case then Gillis isn’t the messenger he’s the instigator.
    Posted:
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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5  5705WRX Points: 1,012Members Posts: 5,705
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    Mostly Civil disagreement and unbelievable this gets moved to the Cooler! Completely ridiculous.
    Posted:
  • Dano golfDano golf  167WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 167
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    new2g0lf wrote:


    I see it as a form or extortion, the SJW's were going to heckle Kuchar until he paid up. You're all very generous when it comes to spending someone elses money. An agreement is an agreement, no matter what the state or country, a mans word should mean something.




    Using your logic, Kuch was "heckled" into paying more? Was his mea culpa a lie? Either Matt had a change of heart about his original decision, and

    was embarrassed by his own words, or he felt bullied into paying more, and then lied about his real feelings. Cant have it both ways.
    Posted:
  • lowheellowheel LOWHEEL  6695WRX Points: 1,658Members Posts: 6,695
    Joined:  #385
    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    Oh sweet irony.Does this apply to Ortiz?
    Posted:
  • dlygrissedlygrisse Kansas 13779WRX Points: 1,270Handicap: 8-ishMembers Posts: 13,779
    Joined:  #386


    We need to abolish tips...on everything!!! There is no need to tip. Set the given price..pay it..and go on your way...I'm sick of all the tipping. No one likes a grey area..set the price/wage...pay the price/wage.




    Who is more motivated to give great service, a server at a nice restaurant or the person working at the DMV?
    Posted:
    I pick 14 of the following:
    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w 
    Ping G410 5 and 7 wood
    Callaway Apex 23*
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, 58 SS or Vokey M Grind 58
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Jones Utility
    ProV1x-mostly
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • BB28403BB28403  4168WRX Points: 636Members Posts: 4,168
    Joined:  #387
    snizzle wrote:
    Naw there are too many that use friends and relatives as caddies. As already mentioned most of the tour guys are doing pretty well for themselves.

    I suppose there could be an established rate if you hire a local caddy for a specific even like Kuchar did in Mexico. It might not be a bad idea esp when the tour is playing outside the US.




    That’s kind of stupid though, a family member isn’t going to be objective. Caddies can be highly trained individuals and they have a code of ethics. Like a knight and his squire.

    There is a divide of professionalism between player and caddie. When you have a friend or relative, you are losing that.



    There is an art to 2 people with 1 goal. Fighter pilots , regular pilots, sniper and his lookout guy.
    Posted:
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  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 Austin 6495WRX Points: 1,059Handicap: 8.7Members Posts: 6,495
    Joined:  #388
    GoGoErky wrote:


    Unless Tucan went to Gillis which from what I read wasn't the case then Gillis isn't the messenger he's the instigator.




    Who is this Gillis dude?
    Posted:
  • gamesgames Argue for your limitations and they are yours. Des Moines 1857WRX Points: 230Members Posts: 1,857
    Joined:  #389


    Actually WE (and very sarcastic use of the word) WON CONVINCIGLY in the court of public opinion (and amongst PGA golfers, their caddies, PGA brass & in all liklihood Kuch's sponsors) & poor Kuch had to pay up......



    Only seems here on Golfwrx and the fact it hasn't been moved to Heated Topics, that we are taking a beating on this one thread....... image/taunt.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':taunt:' />




    You think you won because El Tucan got a few extra shekels?



    Last week while the controversy raged on, Jordan Spieth put his dad on the bag to replace Michael Greller in Mexico. That spoke VOLUMES about how the tour players will act moving forward.



    A Pyrrhic victory. At best.
    Posted:
  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
    Joined:  #390

    cdnglf wrote:

    GoGoErky wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    How is it not Gillis fault? Kuch and Tucan settles their deal and went about their way, Gillis stuck his nose in the business of a player and his employee for the week to tell him in gillis' opinion was shirt changed. Then Gillis put the whole thing on blast which then brought in the social media mob and the various media outlets that all pretty much of with rich golfer pays .38% to caddie, rich golfer is ok with $3000/5000 payment.



    This then put pressure on Tucan to get involved and tell some what questionable account of the deal and eventually pressure for Kuchar to cave and pay what everyone else thought was fair.




    Blaming Gillis is shooting the messenger.


    Why is it any of Gillis's business to even ask and get involved? I mean if it is his business then why stop at caddies? Why not all the workers that supported the tournament? Cabbies and limo drivers, bartenders, waiters etc? And those "volunteers" really getting hosed for no pay and having to buy a uniform to support a multi-billion $ behemoth!




    More silly slippery slopes for the KJWs.

    It was Kuchar's act; not sure why you're so butthurt about Gillis telling the truth.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • cdnglfcdnglf  3513WRX Points: 908Members Posts: 3,513
    Joined:  #391
    GoGoErky wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:

    GoGoErky wrote:

    cdnglf wrote:


    Kuchar and Ortiz have provided different accounts of what "the deal" was. By Ortiz's account, the bonus was unspecified (ie left to Kuchar's discretion). By Kuchar's account, it was underspecified as it omitted compensation for a win. Saying "a win is just a top ten" is revisionist nonsense - every single other discussion of caddie compensation I've ever seen specifically states what a win is worth.



    Why was this omitted? Who knows. Kuchar hadn't won in four years, so perhaps his hopes weren't high and he didn't specify. Ortiz, being by far the junior partner, may have felt out of place or not had the language skills to express himself or just assumed Kuchar would take care of him in this unlikely event (oops). Maybe there was an intermediary who dropped the ball.



    In any event there was a gap, which had an easy fix - Kuchar, recognizing that he was by far the more powerful party (and anticipating the potential fallout for cheaping out), could have easily solved the problem by saying "hey, I know we didn't really address this up front but here's $50K. Thank you for helping me to my first win in four years". Instead, he paid Ortiz 3.8% of what a regular caddie would have earned in the same situation. 3.8%! One can reasonably argue that Ortiz didn't do the full work of PGA Tour caddie, but there is no reasonable argument that he only did 3.8% of the work.



    Kuchar then doubled down with his slippery "it wasn't $3k and it wasn't 10%" comment, and tripled down with that monumentally stupid interview at Rivieria. Finally, realizing he had lost badly in the court of public opinion (and had few if any public supporters among his fellow players), he apologized.



    The KJW's deflection tactics here are hilarious - this is not Gillis's fault, or Ortiz's fault, or the "SJW mob", or the Illuminati. It is all on Kuchar. He performs for the public. He is paid a public sum of money. This issue becoming public goes with the territory. As Arnie once told Tiger: if you don't like it, don't take the money.




    How is it not Gillis fault? Kuch and Tucan settles their deal and went about their way, Gillis stuck his nose in the business of a player and his employee for the week to tell him in gillis' opinion was shirt changed. Then Gillis put the whole thing on blast which then brought in the social media mob and the various media outlets that all pretty much of with rich golfer pays .38% to caddie, rich golfer is ok with $3000/5000 payment.



    This then put pressure on Tucan to get involved and tell some what questionable account of the deal and eventually pressure for Kuchar to cave and pay what everyone else thought was fair.




    Blaming Gillis is shooting the messenger.




    Unless Tucan went to Gillis which from what I read wasn't the case then Gillis isn't the messenger he's the instigator.




    No Kuchar is the instigator. No cheapskate, no story.
    Posted:
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