the tour needs to fix the caddie pay issue

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

I am interested in knowing why caddies are required by the tour , like why can't a guy carry his own bag if he wants. That's a serious question not a jab at caddies, I'm interested in knowing why the tour involves itself in it in that sense but does not as you say, set pay expectations. Because they don't it would seem it could lead to scenarios that don't make them look great.

Maybe the players could pay a tax into the tour on earnings and caddys could get paid by the tour, like a salary

The whole "independent contractor vs employee" thing gets blurry for me here. They already get a pension I believe so there's a precedent that they aren't really independent

It does not and it won’t interfere. The tour won’t touch the pay issue for obvious legal reasons. An arbitrary % is just that. Opens a whole can of worms. Clubs or hosts might be able to get involved somehow and players would have to get on board, then maybe the Tour as a “partner” is part of it, but would be very surprised if it starts issuing policies.

in b 4

p s cliff I like ur avatar

Income equality for caddies, that's a good one.

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

in b 4

 

 

 

 

 

p s cliff I like ur avatar

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

This ain't it chief.

#Quagmire.

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

 

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

 

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

I am interested in knowing why caddies are required by the tour , like why can't a guy carry his own bag if he wants. That's a serious question not a jab at caddies, I'm interested in knowing why the tour involves itself in it in that sense but does not as you say, set pay expectations. Because they don't it would seem it could lead to scenarios that don't make them look great.

 

Maybe the players could pay a tax into the tour on earnings and caddys could get paid by the tour, like a salary

 

The whole "independent contractor vs employee" thing gets blurry for me here. They already get a pension I believe so there's a precedent that they aren't really independent

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

 

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

 

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

Essentially they could I suppose. I mean look, in the current setup, a guy can lowball caddies because there's nothing stopping him, that led to a big embarrassment to the tour and it's sponsors, and the furthering of the belief that it's athletes are out of touch

So what is the solution? If the tour wants to take over caddie pay they can hire the caddies themselves and then let golfers interview and choose them. Purses are taxed in a descending way, and the tour pays the salaries of caddies based on seniority, with predetermined performance bonuses

It's an idea...I mean not everyone will like it... but it's no different than how many programs work if the goal is fair pay or what is considered fair pay

One incident shouldn’t result in a new system or a system overhaul. Kuchar messed up and he’s now trying to move forward. How would the Tour deal with part time caddies and spouses who caddie? I really feel if he gave Ortiz 15 - 20k right out of the gate this would have never escalated into a story. Right or wrong the media and public shaming of Kuchar gave Ortiz the leverage and he used it to get the payoff he received. In the end this is costing Kuchar dearly in public perception and I’m not inclined to feel too badly for him.

Bologna. I do think people should do what’s right without having to be made do it. But there’s no way to tell an independent how to pay a sub contractor.

I do find well off folks who pinch penny’s pretty off putting. I’d much rather be the guy who had a funeral with hundreds of employees voluntarily attending vs the guy who dies and people whisper “ piss on him , whoever takes it over can’t be as bad as what we’ve had “.

Those are the two extremes that are the normal. People either love their employer or hate them silently.

One incident shouldn’t result in a new system or a system overhaul. Kuchar messed up and he’s now trying to move forward. How would the Tour deal with part time caddies and spouses who caddie? I really feel if he gave Ortiz 15 - 20k right out of the gate this would have never escalated into a story. Right or wrong the media and public shaming of Kuchar gave Ortiz the leverage and he used it to get the payoff he received. In the end this is costing Kuchar dearly in public perception and I’m not inclined to feel too badly for him.

Surprised European tour hasn’t done this

I honestly do not care what caddies make. None of my business. Doesn’t influence my entertainment value in the sport. They are independent contractors, if they don’t feel they are being treated fairly then pick up a different bag. Or find a different occupation.

Btw. Most of the regular tour caddies are well taken care of.

One incident shouldn’t result in a new system or a system overhaul. Kuchar messed up and he’s now trying to move forward. How would the Tour deal with part time caddies and spouses who caddie? I really feel if he gave Ortiz 15 - 20k right out of the gate this would have never escalated into a story. Right or wrong the media and public shaming of Kuchar gave Ortiz the leverage and he used it to get the payoff he received. In the end this is costing Kuchar dearly in public perception and I’m not inclined to feel too badly for him.

is this the first known time this has happened though or just the first real time its blown up due to social media becoming larger by the minute?

I honestly don’t know. There are enough caddies that like to talk and it would most likely be public knowledge if this happened regularly.

I honestly do not care what caddies make. None of my business. Doesn’t influence my entertainment value in the sport. They are independent contractors, if they don’t feel they are being treated fairly then pick up a different bag. Or find a different occupation.

 

Btw. Most of the regular tour caddies are well taken care of.

Naw there are too many that use friends and relatives as caddies. As already mentioned most of the tour guys are doing pretty well for themselves.

I suppose there could be an established rate if you hire a local caddy for a specific even like Kuchar did in Mexico. It might not be a bad idea esp when the tour is playing outside the US.

I honestly do not care what caddies make. None of my business. Doesn’t influence my entertainment value in the sport. They are independent contractors, if they don’t feel they are being treated fairly then pick up a different bag. Or find a different occupation.

 

Btw. Most of the regular tour caddies are well taken care of.

just to be clear this isn't about the regular tour caddies, its about the replacement caddies that are required from time to time for various reasons. Should there be a minimum pay percentage that a fill in caddie should make based on the contract/agreement of the regular caddie who is absent that week or weeks?

Nope.

Prime example of the road to a Hell being paved with good intentions.

Also, I’m sure everyone playing on Tour sees what Kuchar is going through and will avoid repeating this scenario.

a horrible solution in search of a problem, imo ...

I am interested in knowing why caddies are required by the tour , like why can't a guy carry his own bag if he wants. That's a serious question not a jab at caddies, I'm interested in knowing why the tour involves itself in it in that sense but does not as you say, set pay expectations. Because they don't it would seem it could lead to scenarios that don't make them look great.

 

Maybe the players could pay a tax into the tour on earnings and caddys could get paid by the tour, like a salary

 

The whole "independent contractor vs employee" thing gets blurry for me here. They already get a pension I believe so there's a precedent that they aren't really independent

Caddies should get 90% of the Tour player's earnings. The player is simply hitting a little white ball around while they're out for a nice walk.

The caddie is lugging the bag around, keeping the player dry in wet conditions, calculating yardages, carrying water and food............they do all the leg work.

Can you imagine being Bryson's caddie? He is smarter than 99.999999% of people, so to give him instruction, you need an IQ of 200+ and you have to be built like a linebacker to carry his bag around with the stamina of an ultra runner to get through 18 holes.

I still haven't figured out why a PGA Touring Pro can't roll out there with a ClicGear push cart...and play golf.

If these folks can win with a resort Caddie / their kid / their spouse...I'm pretty sure they can win with a yardage book and a push cart.

Long been an advocate of carts/range finders. Get rid of the greens encyclopedia as well. And big $ penalties for slow play. If you want a caddie to ride along to keep you company, fine, but hurry it up!

But setting lay requirements for caddies??? Ridiculous. Why stop there? Let’s get volunteers paid too!

I still haven't figured out why a PGA Touring Pro can't roll out there with a ClicGear push cart...and play golf.

 

If these folks can win with a resort Caddie / their kid / their spouse...I'm pretty sure they can win with a yardage book and a push cart.

I asked this in the last thread, but there is a specific rule in the PGA handbook that says they must use a caddy and mentions push carts being forbidden

It does seem strange to have that in there. I don't know how it would hurt the tour if a pro's regular caddie was sick or something and he was like "forecast is nice, just gonna push a cart and be alone with my thoughts" (note: his thoughts might be "oh boy, i get to keep this full paycheck baaaaaabyyy")

I'm guessing they think it looks more professional

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

I disagree. There should be NO minimum and NO maximum. The caddie / player relationship should be 100% between the caddie and the player.

I still haven't figured out why a PGA Touring Pro can't roll out there with a ClicGear push cart...and play golf.

 

If these folks can win with a resort Caddie / their kid / their spouse...I'm pretty sure they can win with a yardage book and a push cart.

 

I asked this in the last thread, but there is a specific rule in the PGA handbook that says they must use a caddy and mentions push carts being forbidden

 

It does seem strange to have that in there. I don't know how it would hurt the tour if a pro's regular caddie was sick or something and he was like "forecast is nice, just gonna push a cart and be alone with my thoughts" (note: his thoughts might be "oh boy, i get to keep this full paycheck baaaaaabyyy")

 

I'm guessing they think it looks more professional

Exactly my point.

Why are these guys required to fork over 10% pre-tax earnings for something they can do themselves?

Why don't they have the choice to hire a Caddie, or push/carry their own clubs if they choose to do so?

Seems like an unnecessary tax for some who are completely capable of going it alone.