Attraction of other places UK Scotland - US

Would be good to get some view on this.

I live in Scotland, very close to many of the famous courses - although none are very far away as Scotland is pretty small.

Although I like it, I far prefer the US for golf. I have played a lot in the US and just find it better. My question is around what the attraction is for so many who want to come to Scotland to play golf? Is it just the history, or what else is it?

From the other side, here is what I like about the US:

• The conditions of the courses is usually first class, a lot to do with the weather I imagine, but for me also the money put into it. Now I know I have played some of what would be class as the better courses, so maybe not getting a fair view ( I have been fortunate to have a good job and money to spend, as well as some well connected associates) - but that is what I have to go on. Some I have played are Pebble, Augusta (I have some contacts) Sawgrass, Bethpage, Harbour Town etc. But I have also played loads around Myrtle beach and Florida/Miami etc. and they have all been great. Have I been played a false hand, do you have poor courses with poor facilities also?
  
• The facilities are generally first class, loads of room/parking - very good clubhouse and changing facilities with great catering etc.
  
• Loads of buggies available
  
• You just get looked after better!
  

What I don't like about Scotland:

• Many of the facilities are a let down, often run down with little investment
  
• You generally don't feel that welcome at the bigger courses ( maybe that is just the local people!)
  
• Changing facilities are generally poor ( some exclusions such as Tunrburry and Gleneagles) but generally very poor
  
• Course condition can be ok in places, but compared to the US there is no comparison to me
  

Is the appeal a different style of golf, the links style - whereas I love the soft greens and lush grass that you can get in the US; we generally don't get that here.

Are memberships in the US more expensive as a rule, so that can invest in the clubs more. A good club here will generally be around the £1k mark per year (rough cost) so about $1300 at the moment.

Be good to get the views of you all - :)

I think a lot of what you're describing in terms of facilities / customer service is just a difference between the US and Europe in general. I lived in the London for 2 years, and would always note that US expectations for customer service are very different from what I experienced in Europe - and I imagine that translates to most parts of life. Also, the US is just newer / has more land, and things are bigger here (cars, houses, etc.) as a result - so a lot of the ameneties you're mentioning are more a reflection of that vs. golf specific. I also think the courses you listed are on the very high end of US golf - and you are hitting the mark in terms of cost - at least near the major coastal cities, golf in the US is expensive, crowded, and slow, unless you're able to join a private club (in which case it's usually just expensive...)

For me - the love of Scottish golf is more about the links style courses and history. You won't find a course like North Berwick anywhere in the US - and I absolutely love its quirks (the 13th hole may be the coolest hole I've ever played). I also like the no frills part of things - it feels more like a group of golf enthusiasts took a lawn mower, dug 18 holes in the ground, and called it a golf course, letting nature do the work and embracing what came out. I also like the way folks approach golf over there - it's a bit more of an every person's game, even at more prestigious clubs people are just passionate about golf and enthusiastic to interact with others who share that passion.

I suppose the grass is always greener - or in the case of Scotland - browner, but in a really nice way :)

Would be good to get some view on this.

 

I live in Scotland, very close to many of the famous courses - although none are very far away as Scotland is pretty small.

 

Although I like it, I far prefer the US for golf. I have played a lot in the US and just find it better. My question is around what the attraction is for so many who want to come to Scotland to play golf? Is it just the history, or what else is it?

 

From the other side, here is what I like about the US:

• The conditions of the courses is usually first class, a lot to do with the weather I imagine, but for me also the money put into it. Now I know I have played some of what would be class as the better courses, so maybe not getting a fair view ( I have been fortunate to have a good job and money to spend, as well as some well connected associates) - but that is what I have to go on. Some I have played are Pebble, Augusta (I have some contacts) Sawgrass, Bethpage, Harbour Town etc. But I have also played loads around Myrtle beach and Florida/Miami etc. and they have all been great. Have I been played a false hand, do you have poor courses with poor facilities also?
  
• The facilities are generally first class, loads of room/parking - very good clubhouse and changing facilities with great catering etc.
  
• Loads of buggies available
  
• You just get looked after better!
  

What I don't like about Scotland:

• Many of the facilities are a let down, often run down with little investment
  
• You generally don't feel that welcome at the bigger courses ( maybe that is just the local people!)
  
• Changing facilities are generally poor ( some exclusions such as Tunrburry and Gleneagles) but generally very poor
  
• Course condition can be ok in places, but compared to the US there is no comparison to me
  

Is the appeal a different style of golf, the links style - whereas I love the soft greens and lush grass that you can get in the US; we generally don't get that here.

 

Are memberships in the US more expensive as a rule, so that can invest in the clubs more. A good club here will generally be around the £1k mark per year (rough cost) so about $1300 at the moment.

 

Be good to get the views of you all - :)

This is an interesting viewpoint, two sides of the same coin. I think for both of us, we like something that's different from what we see as normal. Part of it is the history, of course, but we simply don't have the type of grass and ground conditions that we find at your links courses. I understand what you mean about not feeling welcome at some of your best courses, they can be a bit like "golf factories", but many of OUR best facilities can be the same way. I think of a place like Pinehurst, with 5 courses using a single large clubhouse, it really is a bit of a factory.

From what I understand, many private club memberships here are more expensive than is common in Scotland. Many private clubs in the US do not allow outside play, while most in Scotland do seem to accept outsiders. But many of our private clubs support large clubhouses, elaborate dining facilities, tennis courts and swimming pools, a significant portion of the income goes to uses far outside the golf course.

Again, I think the biggest attraction, for all of us, is a change, something different from what seems normal.

We just think its like playin in the Shire.... nostalgic is all it is. playin where golf was invented and playin Links style.

I think its overrated but thats cause I lived there for 5 years and played in the rain plenty which is the real British experience lol

American golf is way better....I tell my friends if you're dying for the Scottish experience just go play when its cloudy grey and drizzling

edit: I will say that going to the 19th hole was better in Britain as it would be packed with guys who had earned a nice drink after battling and surviving thru 18 holes in freezing cold

Now I know I have played some of what would be class as the better courses, so maybe not getting a fair view ( I have been fortunate to have a good job and money to spend, as well as some well connected associates) - but that is what I have to go on. Some I have played are Pebble, Augusta (I have some contacts) Sawgrass, Bethpage, Harbour Town etc. But I have also played loads around Myrtle beach and Florida/Miami etc. and they have all been great. Have I been played a false hand, do you have poor courses with poor facilities also?

Based on the first few courses you list you've played the top 0.1% of courses in the US so your sample is skewed. There are plenty of poor courses with poor facilities.

IMHO people from this side of the pond head to Scotland for the history and the change of pace from what we generally have over here.

golfers are no different than husbands ...

Golf is way more expensive in North America .... 1000 a month is not unusual ... plus large up front initiation fees

My feelings are summed up perfectly by golf writer George Peper when addressing the Fife Golf Association:

"Someday I hope to bring my grandchildren here to Scotland - not to show them what golf is but to show them what golf isn't - that it isn't $200 million resorts and $200,000 membership fees, that it isn't six-hour rounds and three-day member-guests, that it isn't motorized buggies, Cuban cigars, and cashmere headcovers. It's a game you play simply and honorably, without delay or complaint - where you respect your companions, respect the rules, and respect the ground you walk on. Where on the 18th green you remove your cap and shake hands, maybe just a little humbler and a little wiser than when you began"

I lived in the London area for 7 years and just moved back to the USA to Scottsdale, AZ a few months ago. I couldnt have moved to a more opposite place but I love them both equally. Playing golf all over Scotland, Wales, London, and Ireland really taught me a lot about myself and what the games means to me. It is not just the courses or weather.... it is the people that play golf in the UK/Ireland too. Living overseas was a great experience that I will cherish for the rest of my life but I will always be grateful for the golfing experiences I had while living over there.

I personally prefer courses in Scotland because they feel so natural and allow for many strategic options. If I'm playing in Scotland I really have to put thought into what shot I'm going to hit from 150 yards or less in, whereas in the US I can usually be pretty sure of which club to hit before I get to the ball. Scotland's courses are no-frills; I don't need to be pampered, I just want to golf. I also don't like courses that are all built up. Shadow Creek is an example of this for me. It cost $47 Million to build and completely change the landscape in the middle of the desert. It costs $600 to play there and they take a loss every year. The must waste loads of water to try and keep it looking the way it is. Whistling Straits is another, where it was completely built from flat land to have hundreds of bunkers and dunes, and it costs a ton of money to play as well. I'm sure they are great courses, but to me that's not what real golf is. Many Scottish courses were found and the land had to be "massaged" into a golf course rather than completely built from scratch. I love golf in the UK and Ireland, and I can't wait to play more!

Just on the condition of the courses, I would much prefer the links style of Ireland over the US style. I felt like on links courses I was constantly forced to think about wind, roll out, and actually made club choices. In the US I just grab driver and Hit it.

When I got back from Ireland I looked at my bag and got sad about how little I was able to use a 2 iron. At least on most of the courses I play the fairways are so soft that they require a long carry. On links courses you can shape a 2 iron and get some crazy roll out of it.

Context: we played Traigh, Royal Dornoch (X2), Struie, Brora (X2), Crail, New Course, The Old Course (unfortunately had to cancel a much anticipated round at Moray Old, and afternoon we were going to play Lundin Links we couldn't get on and were dead tired and spent bonus time in and around St. Andrews). Spent time near Glenfinnan, lengthy stay in Dornoch, lengthy stay south of St. Andrews.

We not only felt welcome, but were made to feel welcome at every golf course we played. Brora and Crail hands down the most welcoming. Old and New we were treated great, it's just a busy clubhouse and it's not the same as stopping in the less busy courses, in my limited experience. Dornoch we were treated great. A little more low key folks in the clubhouse when we were there, but very friendly, professional and accommodating. Courses, even though it was dry when we were there were in great shape, facilities in great shape. Used caddies two rounds at Dornoch and two rounds at St. Andrews - awesome experiences by all!

Generally the course I'm playing anywhere is my preference, lol. BUT with the exception of the Struie course, which was in a bit of rough shape (and we played in steady, gale force wind that forced all the locals off the course when we played all 18), I absolutely fell in love with the kind of golf played there. The courses look natural and amazing, the views along the sea were incredible, LOVED, LOVED the turf we played on, thinking through shots off the tee and especially into the greens was a blast and a huge part of it, along with the history and I've always been into the history of golf. We did a lot more than just golf and I'm sure all the positives (no negatives) about the other parts of the trip help my opinions along, but just on the golf alone - I could play those courses the rest of my life and not feel like I needed to play a U.S. course again (barring an invite to Augusta National). I love all kinds of golf courses here for sure, but Scotland golf exceeded the very optimistic expectations I already had before going.

I'm busting Jerry!

LOL, maybe our upcoming trip to Troon area then North Berwick area will disappoint us --------- just kidding, it will be awesome as well.

Would be good to get some view on this.

 

I live in Scotland, very close to many of the famous courses - although none are very far away as Scotland is pretty small.

 

Although I like it, I far prefer the US for golf. I have played a lot in the US and just find it better. My question is around what the attraction is for so many who want to come to Scotland to play golf? Is it just the history, or what else is it?

 

From the other side, here is what I like about the US:

• The conditions of the courses is usually first class, a lot to do with the weather I imagine, but for me also the money put into it. Now I know I have played some of what would be class as the better courses, so maybe not getting a fair view ( I have been fortunate to have a good job and money to spend, as well as some well connected associates) - but that is what I have to go on. Some I have played are Pebble, Augusta (I have some contacts) Sawgrass, Bethpage, Harbour Town etc. But I have also played loads around Myrtle beach and Florida/Miami etc. and they have all been great. Have I been played a false hand, do you have poor courses with poor facilities also?
  
• The facilities are generally first class, loads of room/parking - very good clubhouse and changing facilities with great catering etc.
  
• Loads of buggies available
  
• You just get looked after better!
  
• 
  

Yes, there are probably a few thousand very nice courses all over the US. But there are also a few thousand that are run down. If you can afford them, most of us play on very nice facilities when we travel.

Next time you are over here, I suggest you get away from the east coast and try some wonderful and totally different US courses. Mountain courses in Colorado and Lake Tahoe area. Desert courses in Scottsdale. There are hundreds of spectacular courses west of the Mississippi.

Are memberships in the US more expensive as a rule, so that can invest in the clubs more. A good club here will generally be around the £1k mark per year (rough cost) so about $1300 at the moment.

Yes, memberships in the US are a lot higher. A good club here will have an initiation fee of at least $50k and usually $100k or more. Monthy costs would run $800 - 1500.

IMO there are some stark differences which really set the two apart and lead to further discussion.

1. With few exceptions, privates in Scotland are accessible for all. Hence, there aren't many "public courses" of repute except for resort courses which in effect are very similar to the big name resorts in the US. Places like Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns and Gleneagles, while all extremely good, feel like they are copying a US model.

2. The US has an incredible array of public courses suited to all wallets. The number of a good public courses in the US is off the charts. Hence we get the opposite result as in Scotland. The vast majority of US golfers play public courses, the reverse is true in Scotland.

3. US privates can be very difficult to access, hence the popularity of public golf.

4. Playing conditions of GB&I courses are very different from US courses. Essentially, US courses attempt to eliminate mother nature (over-maintain) as much as possible/affordable...hence the reason for outrageously fast greens (and the results, such as altering architecture to accommodate green speed). While many GB&I courses stupidly went down this route in the 80s/90s of feed, water and cut courses which are meant to be lean and mean, generally, GB&I courses embrace mother nature...sometimes too much so!

5. The cost of private golf is vastly different between the two countries. Generally, Scottish clubs will have members from all walks of life and income levels. This relates back point 4, for the most part, Scottish clubs don't have the money to over-maintain.

6. Playing surfaces! It is very difficult to play on fescues & bents in the US. The difference between US surfaces such as bent/poa, bermuda is like night and day. Firmer and faster surfaces (so long as there is enough width) make the architecture more meaningful. It doesn't take big bold features to greatly impact the game if the conditions are f&f.

7. The golf culture is very different in terms of playing speed and paraphernalia. Golf is generally a much simpler game in Scotland than is the case in the US. Although, I will say the two cultures seem to be growing closer in the past few decades.

There are more differences, but that conversation could go o all day.

Ciao

Walking >Buggies