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Marking your ball on the green - new rules

BKN1964BKN1964 Advanced Members Posts: 950 ✭✭
I looked and didn't see a thread specifically for this, so if it exists, please go ahead and point me to it.



Please let me know if I'm interpreting the new rules correctly.



********************************



As I understood the old rules: If your ball was directly in the line of someone's putt and they asked you to mark it one way or another, you could measure from the side of the ball, put down a marker, and lift the ball. If I remember correctly, the USGA Rules Q&A had that question asked specifically and answered that it was acceptable. Of course, I can't find it anymore (assuming it's been replaced with the new rules info).



Under the new rules, it looks like you can no longer do it this way. It looks like your only option is to place the marker on the green in accordance with 14.1a, then move the marker in accordance with 15.3c.



What's a little strange, though, is that the last sentence of 15.3c states "Either the lifted ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2) or the ball-marker must be replaced to mark that spot." (I believe you only see this sentence in the "Full Rules", not the "Players Edition").
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Comments

  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    I find your question interesting. You are absolutely right that old Decision 20-1/16 gave us the explicit authority to measure clubhead lengths either from the side of the ball or from a placed ball marker. While 14.1a says we may mark "right next to the ball" and while I know that "right next to" includes to the side, I can't find anything which says that a ball mark may be initially placed one or more clubhead lengths away from the ball. Only that, in 15.3c, a ball mark may be placed one or more clubhead lengths from the ball mark's original position.



    So I'm at a loss over this. I sincerely doubt that the RBs had anything in mind other than ultimately getting the ball back to its original position, but on the other hand, I'm at a loss as to why the applicable segment of old 20-1/16 wasn't rewritten in the new statement format for Interpretations.



    Let me end with a valueless, "Good question."
  • antipantip Advanced Members Posts: 345 ✭✭
    BKN1964 wrote:


    I looked and didn't see a thread specifically for this, so if it exists, please go ahead and point me to it.



    Please let me know if I'm interpreting the new rules correctly.



    ********************************



    As I understood the old rules: If your ball was directly in the line of someone's putt and they asked you to mark it one way or another, you could measure from the side of the ball, put down a marker, and lift the ball. If I remember correctly, the USGA Rules Q&A had that question asked specifically and answered that it was acceptable. Of course, I can't find it anymore (assuming it's been replaced with the new rules info).



    Under the new rules, it looks like you can no longer do it this way. It looks like your only option is to place the marker on the green in accordance with 14.1a, then move the marker in accordance with 15.3c.



    What's a little strange, though, is that the last sentence of 15.3c states "Either the lifted ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2) or the ball-marker must be replaced to mark that spot." (I believe you only see this sentence in the "Full Rules", not the "Players Edition").
    Here's a very recent Q/A from a golf rules site run by a large State GA.



    Q. I have seen these two putting green ball marking behaviors and I am not sure if they are legal in 2019 - please advise:

    First - a ball is close to someone else's line, player asks please mark one putter head towards you, and the other person places the putter head directly next to the ball and then puts a ball marker next to the putter head.

    Second - player lays her putter on the green behind the ball just touching the ball and leaves it there while she lifts and cleans the ball and then returns the ball to the green.



    A. Rule 14.1a and the Definition of Mark permit the player to mark the ball using the club. As for the first action, so long as the ball is replaced in the correct spot, there is no problem with that procedure, although I would recommend the player place the ball-marker first then span it to the side for more accuracy.



    I also had been interested by the visible narrowing of the wording in the new rule and had wondered the ramifications in the same way you are wondering. That said, I do find the wording in the answer above to be convincing. Reflecting further on the actual published words in the definition of mark (and the wording of 14.1a), I think it is reasonable to read an action of carefully placing a putter directly next to the ball and then placing the marker right next to the putter (rather than directly next to the ball), and returning the ball into play carefully by reversing those actions, to not be inconsistent with the rule. I agree with the answer above that first best practice would be to put the marker down first and then use the putter to move that marker, but I really don't think RBs intend there to be a penalty for placing the putter down first and then placing a marker next to the putter.



    If anyone needs more assurance on this issue, the USGA phone line is probably the simplest avenue for further clarification.
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 12,704 ClubWRX
    antip wrote:


    Here's a very recent Q/A from a golf rules site run by a large State GA.



    Q. I have seen these two putting green ball marking behaviors and I am not sure if they are legal in 2019 - please advise:

    First - a ball is close to someone else's line, player asks please mark one putter head towards you, and the other person places the putter head directly next to the ball and then puts a ball marker next to the putter head.

    Second - player lays her putter on the green behind the ball just touching the ball and leaves it there while she lifts and cleans the ball and then returns the ball to the green.



    A. Rule 14.1a and the Definition of Mark permit the player to mark the ball using the club. As for the first action, so long as the ball is replaced in the correct spot, there is no problem with that procedure, although I would recommend the player place the ball-marker first then span it to the side for more accuracy.



    ...






    Nice find!
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • NewbyNewby Advanced Members Posts: 6,366 ✭✭
    The expression used to be 'mark the marker'.

    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.

    If it doesn't say you can't, then you can.
  • antipantip Advanced Members Posts: 345 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    The expression used to be 'mark the marker'.

    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.

    If it doesn't say you can't, then you can.
    I think the original question here is a very logical one that flows directly from the wording chosen in the rule and definition - you can do EITHER X OR Y - without confirming, perhaps in an interpretation, that there is no problem with combining X and Y. So I don't think this is a 'if it doesn't say you can't, then you can' sort of situation.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    antip wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    The expression used to be 'mark the marker'.

    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.

    If it doesn't say you can't, then you can.
    I think the original question here is a very logical one that flows directly from the wording chosen in the rule and definition - you can do EITHER X OR Y - without confirming, perhaps in an interpretation, that there is no problem with combining X and Y. So I don't think this is a 'if it doesn't say you can't, then you can' sort of situation.
    Yes, in general the rules say you "can't" (lift your ball) but there are explicit rules that say you "can" in particular circumstances and through particular procedures. So I don't see this as an "if it doesn't say you can't" thing.



    I read the "large state golf association's" comment above. I wish they spoke (whoever they are) with an RB's authority. I fear they are simply applying logic.
  • NewbyNewby Advanced Members Posts: 6,366 ✭✭
    Sorry guys, I'm not sure I understand your responses.

    Ignoring 'can't' and 'can', do you agree with my more substantive point.



    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    Sorry guys, I'm not sure I understand your responses.

    Ignoring 'can't' and 'can', do you agree with my more substantive point.



    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.
    I certainly believe your point should be the rule. But I can't find justification within the rules for marking your ball itself anywhere other than "right behind or right next to the ball" as stated in 14.1a. Placing a mark next to a stationary clubhead right next to a ball makes still makes sense, as it used to, but the only place I can find in the rules which talks about placing a mark one or more clubheads away from the ball states that a (presumably already accurately placed) ball marker may be moved in that fashion.



    Certainly this is highly technical, but many players do this. A little clarification wouldn't hurt.
  • rogolfrogolf Advanced Members Posts: 3,623 ✭✭
    edited February 21
    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    Sorry guys, I'm not sure I understand your responses.

    Ignoring 'can't' and 'can', do you agree with my more substantive point.



    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.
    I certainly believe your point should be the rule. But I can't find justification within the rules for marking your ball itself anywhere other than "right behind or right next to the ball" as stated in 14.1a. Placing a mark next to a stationary clubhead right next to a ball makes still makes sense, as it used to, but the only place I can find in the rules which talks about placing a mark one or more clubheads away from the ball states that a (presumably already accurately placed) ball marker may be moved in that fashion.



    Certainly this is highly technical, but many players do this. A little clarification wouldn't hurt.


    Have both of you used up your allotment of calls to the USGA and R&A? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    rogolf wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    Sorry guys, I'm not sure I understand your responses.

    Ignoring 'can't' and 'can', do you agree with my more substantive point.



    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.
    I certainly believe your point should be the rule. But I can't find justification within the rules for marking your ball itself anywhere other than "right behind or right next to the ball" as stated in 14.1a. Placing a mark next to a stationary clubhead right next to a ball makes still makes sense, as it used to, but the only place I can find in the rules which talks about placing a mark one or more clubheads away from the ball states that a (presumably already accurately placed) ball marker may be moved in that fashion.



    Certainly this is highly technical, but many players do this. A little clarification wouldn't hurt.


    Have both of you used up your allotment of calls to the USGA and R&A? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    I'm hoping someone else will do this. I prefer to limit the locations in which I embarrass myself, I like to do it just here if at all possible. I vote for BKN1964 to make the call! After all, he/she started all the trouble!
  • NewbyNewby Advanced Members Posts: 6,366 ✭✭
    I can't get that excited about it. As long as the ball gets back in its original position, that'll do.



    I remember seeing John Jacobs on (black and white) TV many moons ago, explaining how to mark away from the line of putt. He used a full putter length. He said the directional accuracy was far better with a long stick rather than a short stubby putter head.
  • davep043davep043 Advanced Members Posts: 2,959 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    I can't get that excited about it. As long as the ball gets back in its original position, that'll do.



    I remember seeing John Jacobs on (black and white) TV many moons ago, explaining how to mark away from the line of putt. He used a full putter length. He said the directional accuracy was far better with a long stick rather than a short stubby putter head.




    I agree with that underlined little bit, its easier to aim a rifle than a pistol. But a typical putter shaft is what, 10 to 15 times as long as the putterhead itself? So to get the same absolute accuracy, you need to have an angular (directional) accuracy 10 times better. Within 5 degrees with the putter head, within 1/2 degree with the entire putterlength. I'm not buying it.
  • BKN1964BKN1964 Advanced Members Posts: 950 ✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:

    rogolf wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    Sorry guys, I'm not sure I understand your responses.

    Ignoring 'can't' and 'can', do you agree with my more substantive point.



    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.
    I certainly believe your point should be the rule. But I can't find justification within the rules for marking your ball itself anywhere other than "right behind or right next to the ball" as stated in 14.1a. Placing a mark next to a stationary clubhead right next to a ball makes still makes sense, as it used to, but the only place I can find in the rules which talks about placing a mark one or more clubheads away from the ball states that a (presumably already accurately placed) ball marker may be moved in that fashion.



    Certainly this is highly technical, but many players do this. A little clarification wouldn't hurt.


    Have both of you used up your allotment of calls to the USGA and R&A? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    I'm hoping someone else will do this. I prefer to limit the locations in which I embarrass myself, I like to do it just here if at all possible. I vote for BKN1964 to make the call! After all, he/she started all the trouble!




    Haha! I probably will. Just wanted to make sure I'm not missing it somewhere.



    I can't see myself calling someone on this, as I'm more of a common-sense type of guy (unless said person was being a jerk).



    I'm more interested because I've been doing it this way since I started playing golf 40 years ago. Old habits die hard.
  • BKN1964BKN1964 Advanced Members Posts: 950 ✭✭
    BKN1964 wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    rogolf wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    Sorry guys, I'm not sure I understand your responses.

    Ignoring 'can't' and 'can', do you agree with my more substantive point.



    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.
    I certainly believe your point should be the rule. But I can't find justification within the rules for marking your ball itself anywhere other than "right behind or right next to the ball" as stated in 14.1a. Placing a mark next to a stationary clubhead right next to a ball makes still makes sense, as it used to, but the only place I can find in the rules which talks about placing a mark one or more clubheads away from the ball states that a (presumably already accurately placed) ball marker may be moved in that fashion.



    Certainly this is highly technical, but many players do this. A little clarification wouldn't hurt.


    Have both of you used up your allotment of calls to the USGA and R&A? image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    I'm hoping someone else will do this. I prefer to limit the locations in which I embarrass myself, I like to do it just here if at all possible. I vote for BKN1964 to make the call! After all, he/she started all the trouble!




    Haha! I probably will. Just wanted to make sure I'm not missing it somewhere.



    I can't see myself calling someone on this, as I'm more of a common-sense type of guy (unless said person was being a jerk).



    I'm more interested because I've been doing it this way since I started playing golf 40 years ago. Old habits die hard.




    Email to USGA sent.
  • antipantip Advanced Members Posts: 345 ✭✭
    BKN1964 wrote:




    Email to USGA sent.
    Never any harm in clarification, and good for the RB to get feedback on the issues people are asking to inform future tweaks. Understandably, though, this route is significantly slower than normal as they work on the tsunami.
  • antipantip Advanced Members Posts: 345 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    Sorry guys, I'm not sure I understand your responses.

    Ignoring 'can't' and 'can', do you agree with my more substantive point.



    As a club may be used to mark, it is a marker (although not a ball-marker). I can't see any reason why one can't mark the ball with the club tip and then place the ball-marker at the other end.
    Here's the alternate argument (not advocating, just discussing): it says you can do X or Y, but your argument above says you can do X and Y together. Simply not the same thing.



    And to extend the discussion: BKN's original post (and I presume the email to the USGA) picked up on the thrust of the first question that was sent to the State GA. The second question also merits attention. It asks: Second - player lays her putter on the green behind the ball just touching the ball and leaves it there while she lifts and cleans the ball and then returns the ball to the green.





    The definition's and 14.1a's "or" described ALTERNATIVE to marking with a ball-marker is "HOLDING a club on the ground right behind or right next to the ball." Elsewhere we have discussed the critical difference in HOLDING vs LAYING DOWN/SETTING AN OBJECT DOWN in the context of R10.2b(2) - considering whether that photo of a pro lining up his putt with his putter on the green from a few yards behind the ball could be a breach of that rule if the pro let go of his putter (that is, lay it down and not continue holding it).



    So, IMO, it would be all too easy for a player to believe that laying a putter on the green right next to the ball and then placing a ball marker at the other end of the putter means you have not kept hold of the putter throughout this process so you have breached the rule and marked in the wrong way.



    Marking the ball is such a fundamental and common part of playing the game and applying the rules that the language of the rules should be as clear and unambiguous as possible, and I don't think we are quite there yet.
  • NewbyNewby Advanced Members Posts: 6,366 ✭✭
    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it’s because the ball must be marked “right behind or right next to the ball.” The procedure you describe does not do that.
  • BKN1964BKN1964 Advanced Members Posts: 950 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?




    That's what we're trying to determine. Sounds like nobody so far knows the answer.
  • ShilgyShilgy Advanced Members Posts: 11,113 ✭✭
    edited February 21
    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it’s because the ball must be marked “right behind or right next to the ball.” The procedure you describe does not do that.
    ?? 13.1b

    b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green



    A ball on the putting green may be lifted and cleaned (see Rule 14.1).

    The spot of the ball must be marked before it is lifted and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).



    Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be replaced on its original spot, you must mark the spot, which means to:


    • Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to your ball, or


    • Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to your ball.
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  • antipantip Advanced Members Posts: 345 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it’s because the ball must be marked “right behind or right next to the ball.” The procedure you describe does not do that.
    ?? 13.1b

    b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green



    A ball on the putting green may be lifted and cleaned (see Rule 14.1).

    The spot of the ball must be marked before it is lifted and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).



    Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be replaced on its original spot, you must mark the spot, which means to:
    • Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to your ball, or
    • Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to your ball.



    I don't think anyone is referring to anything else. And Newby's question can only be answered by RBs: exactly what does their wording intend to consider a breach? On a precise reading of their words and ONLY their words, holding a club on the ground right next to your ball and placing a marker next to that club AND then lifting that club is NOT consistent with those words above from 14.1a and the definition of mark. But I don't for a moment think RBs intend such action to be a breach.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it’s because the ball must be marked “right behind or right next to the ball.” The procedure you describe does not do that.
    ?? 13.1b

    b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green



    A ball on the [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#putting green"]putting green[/url] may be lifted and cleaned (see [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-14.html#Rule 14.1"]Rule 14.1[/url]).

    The spot of the ball must be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#marked"]marked[/url] before it is lifted and the ball must be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#replaced"]replaced[/url] on its original spot (see [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-14.html#Rule 14.2"]Rule 14.2[/url]).



    Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/definitions.html#replaced"]replaced[/url] on its original spot, you must [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/definitions.html#mark"]mark[/url] the spot, which means to:
    I read it all, and the highlighted area says you can hold your club to mark the ball, but it doesn’t say that marking the position of your club is the equivalent of marking the ball.



    I’m a bit confused by your comment.
  • ShilgyShilgy Advanced Members Posts: 11,113 ✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it’s because the ball must be marked “right behind or right next to the ball.” The procedure you describe does not do that.
    ?? 13.1b

    b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green



    A ball on the [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#putting green"]putting green[/url] may be lifted and cleaned (see [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-14.html#Rule 14.1"]Rule 14.1[/url]).

    The spot of the ball must be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#marked"]marked[/url] before it is lifted and the ball must be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#replaced"]replaced[/url] on its original spot (see [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-14.html#Rule 14.2"]Rule 14.2[/url]).



    Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/definitions.html#replaced"]replaced[/url] on its original spot, you must [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/definitions.html#mark"]mark[/url] the spot, which means to:
    I read it all, and the highlighted area says you can hold your club to mark the ball, but it doesn’t say that marking the position of your club is the equivalent of marking the ball.



    I’m a bit confused by your comment.
    You're confused? Trying being the rest of us. Newby, I believe it was, posted that if it doesn't say you cannot-you can. If it is a valid way to mark your position why is it not a valid way to move your mark?
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    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 12,704 ClubWRX
    Sawgrass wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it’s because the ball must be marked “right behind or right next to the ball.” The procedure you describe does not do that.
    ?? 13.1b

    b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green



    A ball on the putting green may be lifted and cleaned (see Rule 14.1).

    The spot of the ball must be marked before it is lifted and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).



    Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be replaced on its original spot, you must mark the spot, which means to:
    • Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to your ball, or
    • Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to your ball.

    I read it all, and the highlighted area says you can hold your club to mark the ball, but it doesn’t say that marking the position of your club is the equivalent of marking the ball.



    I’m a bit confused by your comment.




    LOL



    I read it the same way as Shilgy, because we wanted to. I have to believe this is an accidental omission that will quickly be remedied with an interpretation?
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue @HitEmTrue1 Advanced Members Posts: 6,118 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it’s because the ball must be marked “right behind or right next to the ball.” The procedure you describe does not do that.
    ?? 13.1b

    b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green



    A ball on the [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#putting green"]putting green[/url] may be lifted and cleaned (see [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-14.html#Rule 14.1"]Rule 14.1[/url]).

    The spot of the ball must be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#marked"]marked[/url] before it is lifted and the ball must be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/definitions.html#replaced"]replaced[/url] on its original spot (see [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-14.html#Rule 14.2"]Rule 14.2[/url]).



    Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/definitions.html#replaced"]replaced[/url] on its original spot, you must [url="https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/players-edition/definitions.html#mark"]mark[/url] the spot, which means to:
    I read it all, and the highlighted area says you can hold your club to mark the ball, but it doesn’t say that marking the position of your club is the equivalent of marking the ball.



    I’m a bit confused by your comment.
    You're confused? Trying being the rest of us. Newby, I believe it was, posted that if it doesn't say you cannot-you can. If it is a valid way to mark your position why is it not a valid way to move your mark?




    They aren’t talking about moving the mark. They are talking about using that method to place the original marker.

  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Advanced Members Posts: 3,728 ✭✭
    Personally I have always favoured simplicity and as few steps as possible. Thus I have tended to mark with the club and placed the ball-marker directly by the heel. IMO this is faster and more accurate way than first marking the spot and then moving the marker. I would be disappointed as well as astonished if this would now be against the Rules.



    On the other hand, there are some changes in the Rules having nothing to do with logic so this could be one more...
  • AugsterAugster Advanced Members Posts: 4,071 ✭✭
    I thought this was a point of emphasis in the new rules. But I can’t find my info from 2017 that said it. Unless I dreamed it. IDK.



    I recall it saying the ball has to be marked, with a ball mark, then the mark can be moved. This was done to make it a universal and repeatable procedure. And other players would know instantly if it was done incorrectly.



    I even recall a thread on it in here. Lots of discussion about marker sizes/shapes/tour issue.



    It seems nothing came of it in the new rules as they have muddied up the wording and that’s why this is a thread.
  • NewbyNewby Advanced Members Posts: 6,366 ✭✭
    edited February 22
    Had any one noticed that measure must be taken from the original spot not the marker?



    "The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths."



    So it is not marking the mark (ball-marker), which is in effect irrelevant or redundant
  • Colin LColin L Advanced Members Posts: 1,950 ✭✭
    edited February 22
    Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.



    By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?



    The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.
  • antipantip Advanced Members Posts: 345 ✭✭
    edited February 22
    Newby wrote:


    Had any one noticed that measure must be taken from the original spot not the marker?



    "The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths."



    So it is not marking the mark (ball-marker), which is in effect irrelevant or redundant
    This unreferenced material confused me but I subsequently realized it comes from R15. If RBs mean it to be binding on the way a player initially marks a ball, I am more than surprised that 14.1 doesn't say that or reference R15.3. Probably makes it even more important to get guidance on exactly what 14.1 permits and what it does not permit.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:


    Had any one noticed that measure must be taken from the original spot not the marker?



    "The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths."



    So it is not marking the mark (ball-marker), which is in effect irrelevant or redundant
    My reading of this is that the ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its (that is, the ball-marker's) original spot."



    If you are reading that last "its" as meaning the ball's original spot, I object, your honor. The question assumes facts that are not in evidence.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Colin L wrote:


    Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.



    By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?



    The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.
    15.3c has a heading which only describes a ball-marker interfering or helping. Not a ball.



    Welcome to our land of the confused.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Newby wrote:


    I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.



    Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

    If not, why not?
    If it in fact is illegal, it's because the ball must be marked "right behind or right next to the ball." The procedure you describe does not do that.
    ?? 13.1b

    b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green



    A ball on the putting green may be lifted and cleaned (see Rule 14.1).

    The spot of the ball must be marked before it is lifted and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).



    Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

    Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be replaced on its original spot, you must mark the spot, which means to:
    • Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to your ball, or
    • Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to your ball.

    I read it all, and the highlighted area says you can hold your club to mark the ball, but it doesn't say that marking the position of your club is the equivalent of marking the ball.



    I'm a bit confused by your comment.
    You're confused? Trying being the rest of us. Newby, I believe it was, posted that if it doesn't say you cannot-you can. If it is a valid way to mark your position why is it not a valid way to move your mark?


    Hey, don't try to compete with me as to who is more confused. I staked out my ground in post #2!
  • ShilgyShilgy Advanced Members Posts: 11,113 ✭✭
    edited February 22
    Augster wrote:


    I thought this was a point of emphasis in the new rules. But I can't find my info from 2017 that said it. Unless I dreamed it. IDK.



    I recall it saying the ball has to be marked, with a ball mark, then the mark can be moved. This was done to make it a universal and repeatable procedure. And other players would know instantly if it was done incorrectly.



    I even recall a thread on it in here. Lots of discussion about marker sizes/shapes/tour issue.



    It seems nothing came of it in the new rules as they have muddied up the wording and that's why this is a thread.
    I will say that this point is something I see when playing. The common timing of moving a mark is when asked. The ball has already been marked and then the player is asked to move one way or the other. I often see a problem when the player is asked to move it BEFORE it has been marked. Very often they will set the putter head down with the toe next to the ball and place the mark at the heel. The issue comes when replacing they place the mark at the toe and the ball in front of that. Then they look at me oddly when I tell them they did it incorrectly. The act of replacing the marker opposite the toe of the putter becomes so ingrained and they do that even when they measured directly from the ball.



    Perhaps the rules wanted to avoid that?





    Edited-clarity
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    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Advanced Members Posts: 3,728 ✭✭
    edited February 22
    In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.



    During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.



    During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....
    I'd always thought "one or more club-head lengths" was a distance measurement, not a process. That is, if a grip is four putter heads long, moving your mark that distance while using your grip as the measure was just as good as using your putter head four times.



    And I believe you were looking for the word, "incomprehensible." I never cease to be amazed at your ability to discuss precise rules issues in many languages!



    I suggest you not lose trust in the RBs, just give them a break for a while and let them sort things out. The changes they stepped up to were an enormous endeavor.
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Advanced Members Posts: 3,728 ✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:

    Mr. Bean wrote:


    In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.



    During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....
    I'd always thought "one or more club-head lengths" was a distance measurement, not a process. That is, if a grip is four putter heads long, moving your mark that distance while using your grip as the measure was just as good as using your putter head four times.






    Well, me too, but hasn't many posts before this one described a potential problem with that kind of heathen behaviour..?
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Mr. Bean wrote:


    In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.



    During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....
    I'd always thought "one or more club-head lengths" was a distance measurement, not a process. That is, if a grip is four putter heads long, moving your mark that distance while using your grip as the measure was just as good as using your putter head four times.






    Well, me too, but hasn't many posts before this one described a potential problem with that kind of heathen behaviour..?
    What was true and what is true may be different. After all we no longer have old Decision 20-1/16 to rely upon.
  • NewbyNewby Advanced Members Posts: 6,366 ✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.



    During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....




    See my post #12 re John Jacobs (for those who are too young to remember his teaching on TV - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jacobs_(English_golfer) )
  • Colin LColin L Advanced Members Posts: 1,950 ✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:

    Colin L wrote:


    Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.



    By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?



    The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.
    15.3c has a heading which only describes a ball-marker interfering or helping. Not a ball.



    Welcome to our land of the confused.




    Place the toe of your putter next to the ball and lift the ball. Your putter is the ball marker. Mark its heel and take it away: you have moved the ball-marker out of the way in accordance with 15.3c. and measured a distance from the original spot which is marked.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Colin L wrote:

    Sawgrass wrote:

    Colin L wrote:


    Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.



    By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?



    The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.
    15.3c has a heading which only describes a ball-marker interfering or helping. Not a ball.



    Welcome to our land of the confused.




    Place the toe of your putter next to the ball and lift the ball. Your putter is the ball marker. Mark its heel and take it away: you have moved the ball-marker out of the way in accordance with 15.3c. and measured a distance from the original spot which is marked.




    See Newby’s post #5. He suggests, and the definition of ball-marker seems to support, that a ball-marker must be a small piece of equipment rather than one the size of a club. So while you may hold your club to mark the position of your ball, it’s not technically a ball-marker. Above you are describing marking something that is marking a ball, not moving a ball-marker.



    Nevertheless, I’d be happy if a clarification come out endorsing your perspective.



  • Swisstrader98Swisstrader98 Advanced Members Posts: 3,478 ✭✭
    Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules😂



    We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Advanced Members Posts: 3,728 ✭✭
    Newby wrote:

    Mr. Bean wrote:


    In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.



    During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....




    See my post #12 re John Jacobs (for those who are too young to remember his teaching on TV - https://en.wikipedia...(English_golfer) )




    So... what John Jacobs did way back is true with 2019 Rules, is that it..?



    C'mon, Newby!
  • rogolfrogolf Advanced Members Posts: 3,623 ✭✭


    Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules��



    We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.


    If you're not interested, just stay away (or contribute something useful). image/bye.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wave:' />
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Advanced Members Posts: 3,728 ✭✭


    Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules��



    We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.




    You are spot on!



    Then again... if the Rules were very simple and easy to comprehend to all.... this section of WRX would not exist...



    That would mean that all the people trying to find meaning in their lives by learning the Rules and trying to be able to explain them to others would lose that part of their lives.... and maybe the only reason for them to feel alive.... a tragedy....
  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules��



    We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.




    You are spot on!



    Then again... if the Rules were very simple and easy to comprehend to all.... this section of WRX would not exist...



    That would mean that all the people trying to find meaning in their lives by learning the Rules and trying to be able to explain them to others would lose that part of their lives.... and maybe the only reason for them to feel alive.... a tragedy....
    Fret if you’d like, but an easier solution is to simply mark your ball the way the rules tell you to mark your ball, which is still the same way which was used millions of times last year and hundreds of millions of times in years before.
  • sailfishchrissailfishchris Advanced Members Posts: 866 ✭✭
    What I've learned: 1) I will never move my ball mark again. 2) I thought these new rules would speed things up....instead it seems like paralysis by analysis.
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  • SawgrassSawgrass Advanced Members Posts: 14,749 ✭✭


    What I've learned: 1) I will never move my ball mark again. 2) I thought these new rules would speed things up....instead it seems like paralysis by analysis.
    Careful about your statement #1, Rule 15.3 doesn’t like it.
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Advanced Members Posts: 3,728 ✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:

    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules��



    We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.




    You are spot on!



    Then again... if the Rules were very simple and easy to comprehend to all.... this section of WRX would not exist...



    That would mean that all the people trying to find meaning in their lives by learning the Rules and trying to be able to explain them to others would lose that part of their lives.... and maybe the only reason for them to feel alive.... a tragedy....
    Fret if you’d like, but an easier solution is to simply mark your ball the way the rules tell you to mark your ball, which is still the same way which was used millions of times last year and hundreds of millions of times in years before.




    Sawgrass, you are constantly using words I have no clue of, but still I would like to remind you of the problem presented in this thread: what is allowed by the Rules and what is not?



    I mean, what has been done a 100 million times may have been right THEN but is it right NOW ?
  • sailfishchrissailfishchris Advanced Members Posts: 866 ✭✭
    Sawgrass wrote:



    What I've learned: 1) I will never move my ball mark again. 2) I thought these new rules would speed things up....instead it seems like paralysis by analysis.
    Careful about your statement #1, Rule 15.3 doesn’t like it.
    I'm fortunate to play a bit with an MGA rules official. He keeps me on the straight and narrow LOL! Otherwise, I'd be lost
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