Is golf in the USA dying?

13»

Comments

  • kyleluteskylelutes Members Posts: 80 ✭✭
    It needs to be cheaper and not require an entire day to play.
  • DrudershDrudersh ClubWRX Posts: 2,905 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 11, 2019 9:45pm #63

    broth518 wrote:


    Nope, Nope and nope.... I think some areas are the country are less than others but saying is golf dying in USA is far fetched.



    Courses are packed in NJ and you can't even get tee times.




    Really? I belong to a golf club in NJ and even w a great layout, great membership, great clubhouse, great location, we are really struggling this year w new memberships. Same deal with all the other clubs in the area and we’ve had to drop initiation prices dramatically.



    Can’t get millennials to join and it’s the younger members that represent the future of the club and growth. It’s partly an affordability issue. Same for existing members who are switching to weekday only memberships to save money.



    I also have the view that millennials who are part of the Google/Twitter generation have no interest in stuffy rules. I thought the USGA was in touch with this and had the opportunity to make changes to simplify the rules but recent misdirection and mismanagement by the USGA will just drive more people away from the game. Other promise from USGA was new rules would speed play so for those saying golf takes too long, would address that concern. USGA screwed that one up as well.




    I belong to a course in SE PA and we have similar issues. Good course, Donald Ross design, great conditions, nice facilities and we’re constantly in the hunt for members. The public courses are busy but you can still get a tee time fairly easily on a Saturday or Sunday morning during peak season. The round will be probably be painful but the times are there.



    A friend of mine belongs to a club nearby that is phenomenal. It’s the kind of place you’d join if money wasn’t an issue but it’s still invite only. They set a goal of obtaining 30 new members starting last fall. So far they’ve gotten 1 new member. That is very unsettling for me.
    Ping G 10.5 Tour 65s
    Ping G 14.5 Tour 80x
    Titleist 716 T-MB 3 Iron AD DI 95x
    Ping Anser Forged Project X 6.0
    Ping Glide 50*SS, 54*SS, 58*SS Project X 6.0
    Odyssey Versa 2-Ball
  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 5,089 ✭✭
    kylelutes wrote:


    It needs to be cheaper and not require an entire day to play.




    Wow! I've never spent an entire day playing golf. You need to find a faster place to play.
  • Ryan3773Ryan3773 Members Posts: 203 ✭✭

    kylelutes wrote:


    It needs to be cheaper and not require an entire day to play.




    Wow! I've never spent an entire day playing golf. You need to find a faster place to play.




    I have played several 6 hour rounds in Milwaukee. Short of driving an hour away (or paying 4000 a year for a country club) this is a sad reality for some of us. Starting at 7 and not getting done till 1, home by 1:30 is basically all day.
  • Swisstrader98Swisstrader98 Members Posts: 3,512 ✭✭
    edited Mar 12, 2019 10:33am #66
    MtlJeff wrote:


    So much gets made of why millenials don't play golf. Does anyone have any real data as to what the percentage of players in Nicklaus's day were people between say, 25 and 39?



    I doubt this was ever the major group of golf's demographics. These are the people who typically earn the least (and aren't getting help from their parents anymore for hobbies) and golf has always been an expensive hobby compared to other alternatives



    My guess is golf has always been mostly juniors (parents pay memberships) and then older professionals with good incomes.



    Horseback riding is the same thing. You don't see many 31yr old horseback riders unless they are pros. You see plenty of <20 yr olds whose parents pay for them, or wealthy older folks




    Hey Jeff. I think you and I have shared a few stories in the past about our horse riding families and golf:). My wife still riding 6 days per wk and my daughter once per wk. crazy obsessive sport. Crazy expensive sport.



    On the subject of millennials, I work with a lot of them and as a group, they have almost zero interest in golf. The generation I grew up with at least had some people with interest but I’m not seeing any young (20-35 year olds) with a keen interest.



    Also where I live, many firms have pretty much ended country club perks for execs, offer much smaller bonuses for Wall Street guys and it just feels like people either have other priorities in life or not as much disposable income. We’ve actually had a good number of members at my club quit recently after being at the club for 10-20 years and citing the lack of disposable income these days. Bone crushing to think it costs $30-35K in this area just to put a tee in the ground.



    I’m also in a bit of shock at how much it costs to play certain courses these days...Torrey Pines, Baha Mar, PGA National, Pebble, Shadow Creek, most Vegas courses and on and on all have daily round price tags of $300-500. That’s just crazy and even as a crazy avid golfer, that’s a bit over the top for me. I’m booking a trip to West Palm and the golf costs more than lodging or airfare.
  • @_the_crook@_the_crook Members Posts: 609 ✭✭
    Ryan3773 wrote:


    kylelutes wrote:


    It needs to be cheaper and not require an entire day to play.




    Wow! I've never spent an entire day playing golf. You need to find a faster place to play.




    I have played several 6 hour rounds in Milwaukee. Short of driving an hour away (or paying 4000 a year for a country club) this is a sad reality for some of us. Starting at 7 and not getting done till 1, home by 1:30 is basically all day.


    how is it possible to enjoy a round of golf under those circumstances ?
    currently playing:
    Steelhead III , FT-5 - D
    Warbirds, 3+, 4
    Hogan BH-5, 3-PW
    Wilson DynaPowered SW
    Ping Anser
    it works

    when I need a change, there are 12 bags full to choose from .
  • DatSliceDoeDatSliceDoe Camerons & Cobras One fairway overMembers Posts: 2,145 ✭✭
    You simply couldn't play as many rounds last year where I lived. Weather was terrible nearly the entire season, especially on weekends. I must have played a total of 10 times, it just wasn't worth it to me to play soggy courses at full price.
  • new2g0lfnew2g0lf Members Posts: 3,309 ✭✭
    IMO courses closing doesn't necessarily indicate a decline in golf. The courses that closed or are closing could have been poorly run or shouldn't have been built in the first place. In the 80's and 90's it seems almost every new community was getting built with a golf course, most of which had uninspired designs and poor plans for sustaining the course. As others have stated weather can be a huge factor in keeping the doors open for many courses. Those with better off season plans, club house, dinner, events, etc seem to do better than those that just shut down for the winter.
    Driver - Ping G400 MAX 10.5*
    Woods - XXIO 10 3W
    Hybrids - XXIO 10 3H, 4H, 5H
    Irons - Home - PXG Gen 2 0311P 5-GW Away - Ping i500 5-AW
    Wedge - Vokey TVD 56* K Grind
    Putter - Seemore Nashville mFGP2 SS Mallet Black
    Ball - KSig, TM TP5X, Snell MTB
  • FergusonFerguson Executive Member VAMembers Posts: 4,464 ✭✭
    Was going to start a new thread - read this today.



    https://finance.yaho...-135626808.html
  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,589 ✭✭
    edited Mar 13, 2019 12:44pm #72
    Health at stratospheric heights of the game doesn't speak to the stability of the foundation, which by many contemporary business analyses is crumbling. In my view, it is constricting back to its historical roots as a pass-time for the aristocracy.
  • MountainGoatMountainGoat Mid-MarylandMembers Posts: 1,589 ✭✭


    Health at stratospheric heights of the game doesn't speak to the stability of the foundation, which by many contemporary business analyses is crumbling. In my view, it constricting back to its historical roots as a pass-time for the aristocracy.
  • bbr16bbr16 Members Posts: 73 ✭✭
    Golf is certainly dying in ohio. 3 courses within 10 minutes of my house have closed in the past 3 years, all courses I used to play. The latest to close is getting replaced with "town homes". Disgusting.
  • raynorfan1raynorfan1 Members Posts: 3,520 ✭✭
    bbr16 wrote:


    Golf is certainly dying in ohio. 3 courses within 10 minutes of my house have closed in the past 3 years, all courses I used to play. The latest to close is getting replaced with "town homes". Disgusting.




    Maybe having three courses within 10 minutes of your house is an indicator of oversupply...?
  • DrudershDrudersh ClubWRX Posts: 2,905 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 13, 2019 10:10pm #76
    raynorfan1 wrote:

    bbr16 wrote:


    Golf is certainly dying in ohio. 3 courses within 10 minutes of my house have closed in the past 3 years, all courses I used to play. The latest to close is getting replaced with "town homes". Disgusting.




    Maybe having three courses within 10 minutes of your house is an indicator of oversupply...?




    Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on where you are.



    I have 7 courses within 15 minutes of my house. Lord knows what the number is if you extend the drive time to 30 minutes. Many local courses have changed hands, and rumors abound about the future of others but not many closures in the last 5-10 years here in the Philly Burbs.



    Edit: 8 courses, forgot about one.
    Ping G 10.5 Tour 65s
    Ping G 14.5 Tour 80x
    Titleist 716 T-MB 3 Iron AD DI 95x
    Ping Anser Forged Project X 6.0
    Ping Glide 50*SS, 54*SS, 58*SS Project X 6.0
    Odyssey Versa 2-Ball
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,603 ✭✭
    Rounds are up 2.8% so far this year
  • HatsForBatsHatsForBats Members Posts: 1,490 ✭✭
    Drudersh wrote:

    raynorfan1 wrote:

    bbr16 wrote:


    Golf is certainly dying in ohio. 3 courses within 10 minutes of my house have closed in the past 3 years, all courses I used to play. The latest to close is getting replaced with "town homes". Disgusting.




    Maybe having three courses within 10 minutes of your house is an indicator of oversupply...?




    Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on where you are.



    I have 7 courses within 15 minutes of my house. Lord knows what the number is if you extend the drive time to 30 minutes. Many local courses have changed hands, and rumors abound about the future of others but not many closures in the last 5-10 years here in the Philly Burbs.



    Edit: 8 courses, forgot about one.




    Here in the NW Philly burbs we lost 18 holes (Center Square) last year and are losing another 27 (Limekiln) after this year.
  • LeftDaddyLeftDaddy Members Posts: 657 ✭✭
    I could write an entire essay on the “golf is dying “ subject, but I’ll spare you all 😀



    I do see some of the trends folks are pointing out (course closures, small attention spans, golf is no longer “cool”, aging golf population), but I also like to take a macro view of it. Golf as a game / sport has been around since the 1400s I believe, and modern golf since the early 1800s. I do believe that there is just something about golf that keeps it alive.



    I also believe that the recent (last 10-20 years) “decline” of golf is more of a right-sizing than anything else. Golf is a luxury “good”, and luxury goods can get affected by bubbles even more than commodities. Golf has been affected by the US economic bubble just as much as some of the other industries, like real estate.



    All of the research I’ve read about millennials is that they are a lot more like Gen X than they’d like to admit...they are just taking to things a little bit later in life than Gen Xers. I do worry a little that golf’s demographics skew a little “old”, and so we need someone to pick it up when we all die out, but I believe it’s draw is such that will happen at some point.



    I’d prefer golf stop trying to be something it isn’t, and just double down on what it is. If that means some more temporary right-sizing then so be it, but I firmly believe there are enough true golfers out there to sustain this great game if it is properly “sized”.
    Callaway 815 BBA DBD, Aldila Rogue Stiff
    Callaway X2 Hot 3 Deep, 14.5, Aldila Tour Green stiff
    Callaway Apex MB UT 2 iron, Project X PXI 6.0
    Callaway 2013 X-forged (3-5), Project X PXI 6.0
    Callaway Apex MB (6-PW), KBS Tour V stiff
    Vokey SM5 54, Callaway Mack Daddy 2 Tour Grind Chrome 58, both with KBS Tour
    Bettinardi BB1
  • HatsForBatsHatsForBats Members Posts: 1,490 ✭✭
    LeftDaddy wrote:


    All of the research I've read about millennials is that they are a lot more like Gen X than they'd like to admit...they are just taking to things a little bit later in life than Gen Xers. I do worry a little that golf's demographics skew a little "old", and so we need someone to pick it up when we all die out, but I believe it's draw is such that will happen at some point.




    I think the issue is pretty clear. In the 1960's and 70's about 50% of high school grads went on to college. In the 80's about 55%, 90's it rose into the low to mid 60%, Since 2002 it has been closer to 70% with only one year being less than 65% (2003 at 63.9%).



    Columbia University:

    Tuition 1960 - $1,460 adjusted for inflation would be $12,517 in 2018.

    Tuition 2018 - $59,430
  • RichieHuntRichieHunt Members Posts: 3,616 ✭✭
    It's not dying because the Tour is increasing in popularity. Ratings are better and attendance at Tour events is at an all-time high. Golf participation is a different story.



    I'll give you a couple of examples.



    1. My member-guest at the club I grew up on had a 5-year waiting list Now, the tournament doesn't exist due to lack of interest.





    2. The city championship I played had 3 eligibility requirements...you needed to either reside within city limits, work within city limits or be a member at one of the 3 clubs within city limits. They used to have a qualifying round that would put the golfers into 2 flights of 32 players. They would usually get about 90 golfers trying to qualify and those that didn't make it into the top-64 were SOL. Then it was match play over the next 2 weeks where 2 of the matches were played on a weekday where you and your opponent would have to make time during the week to play each other.



    Now the eligibility requirements have changed to allow more golfers in....reside, work or be a member of any course in the *county*. And now they only get about 50 golfers.





    I had not gone back to my hometown in nearly 15 years when I went back there a couple of summers ago. I was stunned by how dead the golf course was. I once played 6 holes in THREE HOURS due to how busy it was (and hack golfers and my sado-masochism golf sense) growing up there. We used to play cards on the tee because some of the waits were so long. Now...you can go out on a beautiful day and be one of a dozen people on the course.



    And they are not building golf clubs anymore.



    Another big issue is that the land becomes too valuable. I can't remember the name of the club, but it was in Vegas and they were doing legitimately good business on their annual financial statements. But corporation that owned it got rid of the club and turned it into a business development because they could probably make 10 times the money each year doing so.



    I still don't think golf is going to 'die off.' But, I think it has major participation problems. For every course that seems to do a good job of addressing it...there's 20 clubs that are clueless and do nothing. And if the land becomes too valuable to not do something else with it...that means the only courses left are going to be in remote areas. And the US has seen a sizeable shift in the past 20 years of people moving to the city versus living in the suburbs and rural areas. It's just not a good formula.















    RH
13»
Sign In or Register to comment.