ANNOUNCEMENT:
Please have patience. We understand that this sucks and it will get MUCH better.

Link to full post HERE
Please add any bugs (problems) with new software in the Website Help Forum. There is a dedicated thread HERE.

Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!

mankumanku Advanced Members Posts: 632
I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.



1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.



2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out.



Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.



«134

Comments

  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Advanced Members Posts: 11,367 ✭✭
    edited March 1
    I've played with the pin in on my home course on weeknights for years. Sacrilege i know



    Nothing to see folks



    It may help a little but it should speed things up and that's a good thing



    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges
    Ping G400 LST 11* Mitsu TI BB Matte 53x
    Callaway GBB 3w 14* Mitsu Blueboard 63x
    Ping G400 5w 17* Fubuki Tour 73x
    Callaway V-series Hwood Fuji TS 8.2s
    Callaway Apex 4h 23* Fujikura 904HBs
    Ping Rapture 5-PW Aldila NV MLTi Pro105x
    Ping iWedge 50* Aldila NV 105x
    Ping Zing 2 BeCu s2 54.5* & s3 57.5*
    Piretti Matera Elite (torched)
  • mikpgamikpga www.mikedeitersgolf.com Advanced Members Posts: 7,325
    ...there is nothing new under the sun...
  • Joker91Joker91 Advanced Members Posts: 370 ✭✭
    Ok
  • nyrican52884nyrican52884 Advanced Members Posts: 89 ✭✭
    I played this weekend and left the pin in and was amazed how my putts were going in. The pin definitely reveals where the break is close to the cup. I thought it was a distraction but turned out to be a visual aid.
  • wfrogge1wfrogge1 Advanced Members Posts: 1,183 ✭✭
    manku wrote:


    I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.



    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.



    2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out.



    Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.




    If you hit the center of the pin yes. If you do not hit the exact center of the pin it will not go in
  • sailfishchrissailfishchris Advanced Members Posts: 866 ✭✭
    In the few rounds I've played this winter, at home, some pins were actually frozen in the cup. I will admit as a visual aid- I did like the pin in on putts over 20 or so feet.
    Ping G400 9* Tensei Pro Orange 70 TX
    Ping G30 14.5 Tensei Pro Orange 80 TX
    Mizuno JPX 919 Tours 3-PW Super Peening Blue X
    Vokey SM5 52, 56, 60 DGTI-s400
    Cameron Newport 1.5
    TP5X
    Jones Player 003/ Jones Utility Trouper
  • xxioxxio Advanced Members Posts: 5,645 ✭✭
    So did the use of pegs instead of sand as tees.
  • cxxcxx Advanced Members Posts: 3,027 ✭✭
    manku wrote:


    I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.



    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.



    2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out.



    Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.




    You are allowed to take the pin out if you prefer.
  • SocratesSocrates How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn? WinnipegAdvanced Members Posts: 9,042 ✭✭
    For the average recreational golfer, it is not going to make much of a difference. For the professionals, I think it has changed the game in a way the Ruling Bodies really didn't think through. Pros are quickly learning that they can take out the break out and ram it into the pin. Especially from the mid range putts where there make % is typically less. I think by the time the Masters is over, this will be a serious topic.
    Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
    Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
    Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
    X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
    Vokey SM2 52º cc
    Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
    Scotty X7M Dual 38"
    MCC Align Midsize
  • straightshot7straightshot7 Advanced Members Posts: 2,844
    cardoustie wrote:


    I've played with the pin in on my home course on weeknights for years. Sacrilege i know



    Nothing to see folks



    It may help a little but it should speed things up and that's a good thing



    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges




    It's only going to speed things up if everyone agrees to leave the flagstick in or take it out. Otherwise it's a royal pain.



    If this new rule is deemed a success, they might introduce the idea of making it a rule that the flag must always be left in.



    I personally think they threw the baby out with the bath water. A downhill 6 footer at Augusta is not as beautiful or pure with the flagstick in as a potential backstop.
  • jamiejamie Lefty Boomers Posts: 1,124 ✭✭
    I have to say the pin has knocked a couple outs out...on breaking puts I hit the low side of the flag and I know they would’ve gone in without it. I usually have the flag in outside 15 ft. I tend to hit putts too hard with the pin in while inside 15ft.
    PING G400 9* Tour 65 X - PING G400 Stretch 13* HZRDUS Yellow - PING G400 17* Hybrid Tour 85 X
    PING I200 4-U Project X 6.5 - PING Glide 2.0 Stealth 55 & 60* Project X 6.0
    PING Cadence Ketsch TR CB 35"
  • Dave230Dave230 Advanced Members Posts: 3,714 ✭✭
    Definitely helps with longer putts as a visual aid, even medium range putts. The "makeable" putts in the 10 foot in range not sure it makes any real difference.
  • golfer929golfer929 Advanced Members Posts: 223
    I don’t think it makes a difference either way. If you hit the center of the pin and it pops out, it also would have if it hit the back of the cup. Only thing that could closely resemble at a advantage is the visual aid. At the end of the day, this game changes over time, I don’t want to hear about “Back in the day” and “The true way to play”, because your grandfathers grandfather was saying the same thing!
  • eric13eric13 Members Posts: 47
    From a visual perspective tending the pin and the current rule are the same. Deflection vs making is the real difference and I’m not going there.
  • Frankensteins MonsterFrankensteins Monster Advanced Members Posts: 6,664 ✭✭
    No it doesn’t.
  • Zip-in-ZZip-in-Z Z-Z's First Love - 1970 Advanced Members Posts: 769 ✭✭
    I'm hiding from winter in Palm Springs, I would agree with the majority of the posts, the one thing no one mentioned is .... in the late afternoon when the sun is going down & there's a bit of a breeze, everyone here removes the pin as the shadow of the stick moving & flag flappin is a distraction.



    Otherwise it sure keeps the pace of play moving here in the desert.



    D.
    Ping G400 Driver - Tensei Pro Orange 60 or Tour Ad Di6 Stiff
    Ping G400 14.5* 3 Wood - Tour Ad Di8-S
    Ping G400 22* HYB -Tour AD Di-85S Hybrid
    Titleist 718 AP2 5-9i - Steelfiber i95S
    Titleist 718 T-MB 4i Tour AD Di85 Stiff
    Titleist SM5 Steelfiber i110S - 46-50-56-60
    Scotty Cameron Studio Select Laguna
    Sun Mountain C130 bag V1 Sport Cart
  • LokiLoki Advanced Members Posts: 1,102
    When I play as a single, I NEVER pull the pin. In fact, sometimes on a one footer, I will hit the ball so hard that it will bounce off the pin so I dont have to bend down and get it out of the hole.



    Guess what? I posted every single one of these rounds...including the ones where they explicitly said these rounds are unpostable. No USGA, I am not cheating anyone, but possibly myself. I'm okay with that.
  • ChrismydawgChrismydawg JLo Advanced Members Posts: 392 ✭✭
    manku wrote:
    I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.



    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.



    2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out.



    Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.




    I haven’t seen much of an advantage except for one thing.



    On a straight putt where the pin casts a shadow you can just put down the shadow line and nail it every time. I’ve seen some 8-10 footers be tap ins.



    Putting doesn’t seem much easier to me since the rule change for me besides that.
  • MaximilianMaximilian Advanced Members Posts: 1,299 ✭✭
    cardoustie wrote:


    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges


    One thing I’m a bit worried about, is I see people shoving their hands in the hole with the pin in to pickup their balls. Feels like people are softening the edges of the hole.
  • ORTORT Advanced Members Posts: 104 ✭✭
    I've always played evening rounds after work leaving pins in (anything to save a few minutes to get in before dark). Always had better putting success with it in, now I can do it all the time.
  • Bush PilotBush Pilot Advanced Members Posts: 251
    edited March 1
    manku wrote:
    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.




    I'd like to see someone put an alignment stick vertically in front on the tee box as a visual aid. I guess you'd have to, to have it no different, right? lol
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Advanced Members Posts: 17,414
    edited March 2
    Bush Pilot wrote:

    manku wrote:
    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.




    I'd like to see someone put an alignment stick vertically in front on the tee box as a visual aid. I guess you'd have to, to have it no different, right? lol




    Also, are there already alignment stick on the tee? I never see any, but if there were and they happen to be in line with where you are aiming, then you could absolutely use them as a visual aid, just like anything else that is on the course.





    So I guess it is different after all.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • LokiLoki Advanced Members Posts: 1,102
    Maximilian wrote:

    cardoustie wrote:


    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges


    One thing I’m a bit worried about, is I see people shoving their hands in the hole with the pin in to pickup their balls. Feels like people are softening the edges of the hole.




    Has got to be better than the idiots sticking their putter heads in the hole to flip the ball out. Damages the side everytime.
  • ORTORT Advanced Members Posts: 104 ✭✭
    Loki wrote:
    Has got to be better than the idiots sticking their putter heads in the hole to flip the ball out. Damages the side everytime.




    Agreed. That is one of my least favorite things that other players do.
  • nichhonichho Advanced Members Posts: 1,879 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:

    Bush Pilot wrote:

    manku wrote:
    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.




    I'd like to see someone put an alignment stick vertically in front on the tee box as a visual aid. I guess you'd have to, to have it no different, right? lol




    Also, are there already alignment stick on the tee? I never see any, but if there were and they happen to be in line with where you are aiming, then you could absolutely use them as a visual aid, just like anything else that is on the course.





    So I guess it is different after all.




    Also, in the past if I wanted a visual aid on the putting green I would just ask a playing partner to attended the flag for me, it had pretty much the same effect, upright and in the hole.
    Callaway Rogue 9* PX Evenflow
    Srixon Z F65 Myazaki Kaula
    Srixon Z U65 Myazaki Kaula
    Callaway Apex Pro 16 4-PW TTDG 105
    TM R Series 50, 56,& 60 KBS Hi Rev
    Yes Mollie
  • huskerpower_105huskerpower_105 Advanced Members Posts: 410
    edited March 2
    manku wrote:


    I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.



    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.



    2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out.



    Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.




    Just playing devils advocate here and not picking a fight but:

    1. If it is a visual aid then we should eliminate trees or any other landmark type objects around golf courses that can be used to line up in reference to

    2. If that is the case pins should not be allowed in general. If I hit the pin from 150 yds it’s okay but not from 20 ft?



    I like the simplification but think the weekend warriors that take their games way to seriously will have groups who both want it in and out, similar to AS and Holmes at Riv, and slow down pace of play more than what this change had intended.
    Callaway Epic Flash 10.5* | Aldila 2KXV Blue 60-S
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15* | Mitsubishi Tensei AV Blue 70 Stiff
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 18* | Mitsubishi Tensei AV Blue 70 Stiff
    Callaway Apex Hybrid ‘19 20* | Project X Even Flow Blue 85 Stiff
    Callaway Apex ‘19 4-Iron | True Temper Elevate Tour Stiff
    Callaway Apex Pro ‘19 5-9 | True Temper Elevate Tour Stiff
    Callaway MackDaddy 4 Chrome 48*, 54*, 60* | True Temper Elevate Tour Stiff
    Odyssey EXO Stroke Lab Indianapolis | 33.75"
    Callaway ChromeSoft X “MURPH”
  • TyeetimeTyeetime Members Posts: 61
    Will it speed up the game though? What if half the foursome use the pin and the others want it out? I think it might slow things down unless everyone is using it.
  • oikos1oikos1 Advanced Members Posts: 2,222 ✭✭
    Even if it's one putt during one round, if a golfer leaves the flag in thinking they have a better chance of making the putt or leaving it closer to the hole, then the ability to improve one's score has changed and golf has changed fundamentally.



    We know it's not just one putt during one round and since you can't quantify confidence it will never be measured, but it doesn't matter because leaving the flag in now gives the golfer the option of an advantage they did not have before and yes, that fundamentally changes the game.
  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Advanced Members Posts: 991 ✭✭
    It could have been used as s visual aid when someone asked to have the flag tended. Now we don’t gave to ask for it to be tended or have a penalty assessed if the person tending forgot to remove it
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff The GOAT Advanced Members Posts: 27,950 ✭✭
    I think the actual definition of "fundamental" is such that it's a pretty strong word to associate this rule change with.



    I don't really care about this rule one way or the other. I've putted with the flag in many times during solo night rounds. I don't feel it changed anything about golf for me. If the USGA wants to put this rule in writing i've got no issues.



    If people can't even agree if having it in is beneficial or not, it probably won't affect us much.
    Cobra F8+ 8.5 w/ Aldila NV 2KXV 65
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w//Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56,60 w/S300
    Odyssey O-works #7 Red Tank
  • I_HATE_SNOWI_HATE_SNOW Advanced Members Posts: 3,206 ✭✭
    We've been leaving it in since September, granted not playing any now, but still did over 25 rounds and never once saw the pin really help anyone.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Advanced Members Posts: 4,935 ✭✭
    I play 3 to 4 times per week and I've yet to be in a foursome where there's been full consensus on in v. out amongst the group, so I've not seen any difference in pace of play.



    Personally, in experimenting with leaving the pin in, I've had 2 putts deflected by the pin that every guy in my foursome agreed otherwise would have stayed in the hole. One was a high side breaking putt, the other was low. I also saw another player graze the pin on a low side putt that was pretty clearly going in had it not been deflected.



    Some guys like leaving it in as a visual cue believing it helps them with alignment and depth perception. I am not one of them, it's OUT for me save for really long putts where I'd otherwise have the flagstick tended...
    USGA Index: ~2

    WITB:
    2018 Taylormade M3 8.5 Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 S
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green S
    Ping G 22 Hybrid (2 flat) - Ping Tour 80 S
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Ping Glide 2.0 - SS 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade Ho Toe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • jellynorthjellynorth Unregistered Posts: 12

    cardoustie wrote:


    I've played with the pin in on my home course on weeknights for years. Sacrilege i know



    Nothing to see folks



    It may help a little but it should speed things up and that's a good thing



    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges




    It's only going to speed things up if everyone agrees to leave the flagstick in or take it out. Otherwise it's a royal pain.



    If this new rule is deemed a success, they might introduce the idea of making it a rule that the flag must always be left in.



    I personally think they threw the baby out with the bath water. A downhill 6 footer at Augusta is not as beautiful or pure with the flagstick in as a potential backstop.




    Agreed. And a few things seem pretty clean if we take a broader view:
    1. It's perhaps painfully obvious the "Pin-In/Out" rule is a myopic effort, at best, to address the "pace of play" issue by the USGA (and hesitant partner, the R&A).
    2. The pretense the USGA & Co. are selling with this is in the name of their favorite cause: to address the pace of play.
    3. Pace of play issues seem little to do with the Rules of Golf, but rather with the management of any said round or tournament, whether that be a local course's PGA Pro who manages daily play, a resort's Director of Golf, a High School Sports/Golf Association, the AJGA, or the PGA Tour, et al. This is where pace of play is controlled (or not) - not via the Rules.
    4. The USGA & Co. seem to be trying to control the Pro game (or perhaps, clumsily, the effects of the Pro game on the Elite Am/Junior game) via the Rules. This doesn't/won't work. And there's no history to suggest otherwise.


    If I were to list, in order of influence, the causes of "pace" issues based on my experiences in casual rounds, tournaments, and watching the pros, I'd have to make three different lists. NONE of these would include leaving the pin in/out.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Advanced Members Posts: 4,935 ✭✭
    Truely the only thing that will improve pace of play is if slow players consciously make the effort to be faster. Fast players do so naturally. You just need to be ready to pull the trigger when it's your turn. Pin in, pin out, and even excessive pre-shot routines (as annoying as they are) generally don't make much of a difference. Ya gotta be ready to hit when you're up...
    USGA Index: ~2

    WITB:
    2018 Taylormade M3 8.5 Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 S
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green S
    Ping G 22 Hybrid (2 flat) - Ping Tour 80 S
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Ping Glide 2.0 - SS 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade Ho Toe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • parpar41parpar41 Advanced Members Posts: 1,218
    Yes, to a time-saving, visual aid.



    I am a fan of leaving the pin "in" for putting. I have to wear eyeglasses to improve my distant vision, therefore the pin in the cup is a really nice visual aid that helps me judge the distance of the putt more accurately.



    And yes, I am satisfied that it saves time. Among other things, when it is my turn to putt, it saves me having to ask to have the pin replaced and tended.
  • mankumanku Advanced Members Posts: 632
    dpb5031 wrote:


    Truely the only thing that will improve pace of play is if slow players consciously make the effort to be faster. Fast players do so naturally. You just need to be ready to pull the trigger when it's your turn. Pin in, pin out, and even excessive pre-shot routines (as annoying as they are) generally don't make much of a difference. Ya gotta be ready to hit when you're up...




    Slow people are slow people. Just like people who are always late. Pretty difficult to change people's habits without either giving them a carrot or a stick.



    And the vast majority of golf courses care about one thing only...revenue. Slow play will NEVER change until the slowpokes are penalized...which would mean removal from the course or being banned for future play. And I don't think either will ever happen. At least on non-private courses.
  • oikos1oikos1 Advanced Members Posts: 2,222 ✭✭
    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.
  • davep043davep043 Advanced Members Posts: 2,949 ✭✭
    oikos1 wrote:


    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.


    Yet the Rules allowed the flagstick to be left in place for 12 years, 1956 to 1968. Does that mean the fundamentals changed in 1969, when the penalty was (re)introduced? Was the validity of the US Open or the Masters somehow lessened for those 12 years? This is a change, and one I advocated against, but I don't see it making a significant difference in scoring.
  • 2putttom2putttom # 1 Oregon Duck fan Advanced Members Posts: 9,686 ✭✭
    over the past months I've heard a lot of players quip " ewww that would of gone in if the pin were out"
    Tour Exotics E 10 15*
    Srixon 785's w/G P MCC plus 4
    Mizuno T 7 52 MP T7 56 &60
    Bobby Grace [font=comic sans ms,cursive]SNYPER [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]II [/font][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]46"[/font][/font]
    Oregon Ducks Bag
  • josh21120josh21120 Members Posts: 34
    2putttom wrote:
    over the past months I've heard a lot of players quip " ewww that would of gone in if the pin were out"




    Maybe they choose the option of leaving the pin out moving forward. Cheers!
  • GolfnuckGolfnuck Advanced Members Posts: 573 ✭✭
    edited March 3
    manku wrote:


    I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.



    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.



    2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out.



    Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.




    OP's headline .......



    Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!





    Well I guess the pin rule has fundamentally changed the game many then ............



    If you look at the history of the rule applied to the flag and putting on the green the changes implemented in 2019 is merely the latest in a series of changes.



    - prior to 1899 no penalty for hitting a flagstick when ball is on the green

    - R&A in 1899 introduced the one stroke penalty (in stroke play only) if a ball was played from within 20 yards of the hole without the flagstick having been removed.

    - in 1956 eliminated the penalty for a ball hitting an unattended flagstick in the hole when played from the putting green

    - in 1968 the penalty for hitting a flagstick when hitting from the green was restored

    - in 2019 the penalty for hitting a flagstick when hitting from the green was eliminated again



    So in the period from before 1899 to now the flagstick rule has gone from no penalty (pre 1899) to penalty (1899 to 1955) to no penalty (1956 to 1967) to penalty (1968 to 2018) to no penalty (post 2019 till ????) and I am sure each time the rule was changed the internet forums of the time exploded with comments about how it is fundamentally changing the game and breaking with tradition etc etc !!!!!!!!



    This is the article that I got the date of the rules changes from (a very interesting read) ........



    https://www.randa.or...sent-FINAL.ashx



    A more detailed site is here:



    http://www.ruleshistory.com/
  • nsxguynsxguy FloridaAdvanced Members Posts: 4,832 ✭✭
    oikos1 wrote:


    Even if it's one putt during one round, if a golfer leaves the flag in thinking they have a better chance of making the putt or leaving it closer to the hole, then the ability to improve one's score has changed and golf has changed fundamentally.



    We know it's not just one putt during one round and since you can't quantify confidence it will never be measured, but it doesn't matter because leaving the flag in now gives the golfer the option of an advantage they did not have before and yes, that fundamentally changes the game.




    You know what we CAN quantify ? Our handicaps.



    Let us know how much lower yours is in say, 6 months or so - AND whether you believe it is due to all those putts that went in when they shouldn't,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or whether the pin in helped you aim.



    Then we'll "know". image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />
    Callaway Fusion 9* Project X Handcrafted Hzrdus
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, 20*, 23*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Titleist 816 AP-1 5-PW, DGS300
    Cleveland RTX-3 50*, 56*, 64*
    Ping Sigma 2 Tyne
    Titleist AVX
  • nsxguynsxguy FloridaAdvanced Members Posts: 4,832 ✭✭
    jellynorth wrote:


    cardoustie wrote:


    I've played with the pin in on my home course on weeknights for years. Sacrilege i know



    Nothing to see folks



    It may help a little but it should speed things up and that's a good thing



    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges




    It's only going to speed things up if everyone agrees to leave the flagstick in or take it out. Otherwise it's a royal pain.



    If this new rule is deemed a success, they might introduce the idea of making it a rule that the flag must always be left in.



    I personally think they threw the baby out with the bath water. A downhill 6 footer at Augusta is not as beautiful or pure with the flagstick in as a potential backstop.




    Agreed. And a few things seem pretty clean if we take a broader view:
    1. It's perhaps painfully obvious the "Pin-In/Out" rule is a myopic effort, at best, to address the "pace of play" issue by the USGA (and hesitant partner, the R&A).
    2. The pretense the USGA & Co. are selling with this is in the name of their favorite cause: to address the pace of play.
    3. Pace of play issues seem little to do with the Rules of Golf, but rather with the management of any said round or tournament, whether that be a local course's PGA Pro who manages daily play, a resort's Director of Golf, a High School Sports/Golf Association, the AJGA, or the PGA Tour, et al. This is where pace of play is controlled (or not) - not via the Rules.
    4. The USGA & Co. seem to be trying to control the Pro game (or perhaps, clumsily, the effects of the Pro game on the Elite Am/Junior game) via the Rules. This doesn't/won't work. And there's no history to suggest otherwise.


    If I were to list, in order of influence, the causes of "pace" issues based on my experiences in casual rounds, tournaments, and watching the pros, I'd have to make three different lists. NONE of these would include leaving the pin in/out.




    1, 2 & 3 are all the same issue. But at least you get to say it 3 times.



    If you've read this board at all (one can see you choose not to contribute much) you'd have seen that BY FAR, the 2 most prevalent reasons for NOT playing are "cost" and "time it takes to play" (or otherwise stated as "slow play"). 3rd place is "miles" behind the first 2.



    So the Rules makers make a number of small, hardly noticeable actually but taken altogether,,,,,,,, changes to speed up play and all people do is complain about it. You, 3 times instead of just the 1. image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



    As for the Pro Tour the USGA couldn't (or shouldn't( care less what the PGA Tour does. If they don't want to play by the Rules they can make up their own. If they want to bifurcate, they can. So that's a non-issue.



    Thanks for your thoughts though. image/hi.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hi:' />
    Callaway Fusion 9* Project X Handcrafted Hzrdus
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, 20*, 23*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Titleist 816 AP-1 5-PW, DGS300
    Cleveland RTX-3 50*, 56*, 64*
    Ping Sigma 2 Tyne
    Titleist AVX
  • golfer07840golfer07840 Advanced Members Posts: 1,537 ✭✭
    Loki wrote:


    When I play as a single, I NEVER pull the pin. In fact, sometimes on a one footer, I will hit the ball so hard that it will bounce off the pin so I dont have to bend down and get it out of the hole.



    Guess what? I posted every single one of these rounds...including the ones where they explicitly said these rounds are unpostable. No USGA, I am not cheating anyone, but possibly myself. I'm okay with that.




    Savage post...
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Advanced Members Posts: 17,414
    edited March 3
    The game is to get the ball in the hole, not the flagstick. So while being able to leave the pin in may help and may be different than what we are used to, understand that it has gone through in and out stages through history.



    Changing the size of the hole? That would be a fundamental change..
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • acemandrakeacemandrake Advanced Members Posts: 288 ✭✭

    Loki wrote:


    When I play as a single, I NEVER pull the pin. In fact, sometimes on a one footer, I will hit the ball so hard that it will bounce off the pin so I dont have to bend down and get it out of the hole.



    Guess what? I posted every single one of these rounds...including the ones where they explicitly said these rounds are unpostable. No USGA, I am not cheating anyone, but possibly myself. I'm okay with that.




    Savage post...




    USGA: It's a game of honor until there is no one there to watch your round.
  • Santiago GolfSantiago Golf I Strive to make you Better Advanced Members Posts: 4,961
    I dont see the aiming argument because how often do you aim at the hole on putt. Im aiming a little past on uphill, little short downhill, right/left.
    Driver: Taylormade M2 '17 10.5*; Accura Tour Z Pink, 85 M5 (285, can get one or two to carry 300+ if needed)
    Fairway: Taylormade Aeroburner TP 15*; Diamana Blueboard 72x (255)

    LOOKING FOR A 7 Wood (probably gunna be 230-235 club)
    Irons: Nike Vapor Pro Combo 4-AW; Aldila VS Proto "By You" 100x
    4-5; 38", 61* lie, 5 iron weight (220, 210) 6-8; 37", 62* lie, 8 iron weight (195, 180, 165) 9-AW; 36", 63* lie (150, 130, 110)

    S Wedge: Scratch 1018 DS 57*; Dynamic Gold S400 Onyx; 35.5", 63.5* lie (85): I HARDLY USE IT IN THE BUNKER
    L Wedge: Maltby Third Wedge (Custom Grind) 62*; Dynamic Gold S400 Onyx; 35", 64* lie: THIS IS MY BUNKER CLUB, HARDLY USE FROM OUTSIDE 40 YARDS!!
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Studio Design #5 MB, YES! Tour Tracey (for practice only)

    Ball: Vice Pro
    Grip: Super Stroke S-Tech Cord (Woods +6 wraps, Irons and wedges +8 wraps)
  • farmerfarmer Advanced Members Posts: 7,714 ✭✭
    I have played hundreds of rounds with the flagstick in place. Unless the wind is bending the stick around (happens a lot here), I have never seen a ball at proper speed be rejected by the stick.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Advanced Members Posts: 4,935 ✭✭
    farmer wrote:


    I have played hundreds of rounds with the flagstick in place. Unless the wind is bending the stick around (happens a lot here), I have never seen a ball at proper speed be rejected by the stick.




    Well then, I guess I've just been lucky witness to anomalies. I've seen several glance off of pins that I'd bet my house would have been in the hole had the pin been out.
    USGA Index: ~2

    WITB:
    2018 Taylormade M3 8.5 Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 S
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green S
    Ping G 22 Hybrid (2 flat) - Ping Tour 80 S
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Ping Glide 2.0 - SS 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade Ho Toe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff The GOAT Advanced Members Posts: 27,950 ✭✭
    edited March 3


    Loki wrote:


    When I play as a single, I NEVER pull the pin. In fact, sometimes on a one footer, I will hit the ball so hard that it will bounce off the pin so I dont have to bend down and get it out of the hole.



    Guess what? I posted every single one of these rounds...including the ones where they explicitly said these rounds are unpostable. No USGA, I am not cheating anyone, but possibly myself. I'm okay with that.




    Savage post...




    USGA: It's a game of honor until there is no one there to watch your round.




    Or unless you're Dustin Johnson at a US open and you and your playing partners and a walking rules official all agree to something, but dammit were in charge and we feel like changing it!
    Cobra F8+ 8.5 w/ Aldila NV 2KXV 65
    Callaway Epic Subzero 14* w//Matrix Black Tie 80
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20 w/Diamana D+ 95
    Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
    Callaway MD Forged 52,56,60 w/S300
    Odyssey O-works #7 Red Tank
«134
Sign In or Register to comment.