Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!

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  • I_HATE_SNOWI_HATE_SNOW Members Posts: 3,346 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    We've been leaving it in since September, granted not playing any now, but still did over 25 rounds and never once saw the pin really help anyone.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I play 3 to 4 times per week and I've yet to be in a foursome where there's been full consensus on in v. out amongst the group, so I've not seen any difference in pace of play.



    Personally, in experimenting with leaving the pin in, I've had 2 putts deflected by the pin that every guy in my foursome agreed otherwise would have stayed in the hole. One was a high side breaking putt, the other was low. I also saw another player graze the pin on a low side putt that was pretty clearly going in had it not been deflected.



    Some guys like leaving it in as a visual cue believing it helps them with alignment and depth perception. I am not one of them, it's OUT for me save for really long putts where I'd otherwise have the flagstick tended...
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  • jellynorthjellynorth Unregistered Posts: 12

    cardoustie wrote:


    I've played with the pin in on my home course on weeknights for years. Sacrilege i know



    Nothing to see folks



    It may help a little but it should speed things up and that's a good thing



    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges




    It's only going to speed things up if everyone agrees to leave the flagstick in or take it out. Otherwise it's a royal pain.



    If this new rule is deemed a success, they might introduce the idea of making it a rule that the flag must always be left in.



    I personally think they threw the baby out with the bath water. A downhill 6 footer at Augusta is not as beautiful or pure with the flagstick in as a potential backstop.




    Agreed. And a few things seem pretty clean if we take a broader view:
    1. It's perhaps painfully obvious the "Pin-In/Out" rule is a myopic effort, at best, to address the "pace of play" issue by the USGA (and hesitant partner, the R&A).
    2. The pretense the USGA & Co. are selling with this is in the name of their favorite cause: to address the pace of play.
    3. Pace of play issues seem little to do with the Rules of Golf, but rather with the management of any said round or tournament, whether that be a local course's PGA Pro who manages daily play, a resort's Director of Golf, a High School Sports/Golf Association, the AJGA, or the PGA Tour, et al. This is where pace of play is controlled (or not) - not via the Rules.
    4. The USGA & Co. seem to be trying to control the Pro game (or perhaps, clumsily, the effects of the Pro game on the Elite Am/Junior game) via the Rules. This doesn't/won't work. And there's no history to suggest otherwise.


    If I were to list, in order of influence, the causes of "pace" issues based on my experiences in casual rounds, tournaments, and watching the pros, I'd have to make three different lists. NONE of these would include leaving the pin in/out.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Truely the only thing that will improve pace of play is if slow players consciously make the effort to be faster. Fast players do so naturally. You just need to be ready to pull the trigger when it's your turn. Pin in, pin out, and even excessive pre-shot routines (as annoying as they are) generally don't make much of a difference. Ya gotta be ready to hit when you're up...
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  • parpar41parpar41 Members Posts: 1,218 ✭✭
    Yes, to a time-saving, visual aid.



    I am a fan of leaving the pin "in" for putting. I have to wear eyeglasses to improve my distant vision, therefore the pin in the cup is a really nice visual aid that helps me judge the distance of the putt more accurately.



    And yes, I am satisfied that it saves time. Among other things, when it is my turn to putt, it saves me having to ask to have the pin replaced and tended.
  • mankumanku Members Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    dpb5031 wrote:


    Truely the only thing that will improve pace of play is if slow players consciously make the effort to be faster. Fast players do so naturally. You just need to be ready to pull the trigger when it's your turn. Pin in, pin out, and even excessive pre-shot routines (as annoying as they are) generally don't make much of a difference. Ya gotta be ready to hit when you're up...




    Slow people are slow people. Just like people who are always late. Pretty difficult to change people's habits without either giving them a carrot or a stick.



    And the vast majority of golf courses care about one thing only...revenue. Slow play will NEVER change until the slowpokes are penalized...which would mean removal from the course or being banned for future play. And I don't think either will ever happen. At least on non-private courses.
  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,390 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    oikos1 wrote:


    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.


    Yet the Rules allowed the flagstick to be left in place for 12 years, 1956 to 1968. Does that mean the fundamentals changed in 1969, when the penalty was (re)introduced? Was the validity of the US Open or the Masters somehow lessened for those 12 years? This is a change, and one I advocated against, but I don't see it making a significant difference in scoring.
  • 2putttom2putttom # 1 Oregon Duck fan Members Posts: 10,081 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    over the past months I've heard a lot of players quip " ewww that would of gone in if the pin were out"
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  • josh21120josh21120 Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    2putttom wrote:
    over the past months I've heard a lot of players quip " ewww that would of gone in if the pin were out"




    Maybe they choose the option of leaving the pin out moving forward. Cheers!
  • GolfnuckGolfnuck Members Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 3, 2019 12:16pm #42
    manku wrote:


    I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.



    1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee.



    2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out.



    Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.




    OP's headline .......



    Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!





    Well I guess the pin rule has fundamentally changed the game many then ............



    If you look at the history of the rule applied to the flag and putting on the green the changes implemented in 2019 is merely the latest in a series of changes.



    - prior to 1899 no penalty for hitting a flagstick when ball is on the green

    - R&A in 1899 introduced the one stroke penalty (in stroke play only) if a ball was played from within 20 yards of the hole without the flagstick having been removed.

    - in 1956 eliminated the penalty for a ball hitting an unattended flagstick in the hole when played from the putting green

    - in 1968 the penalty for hitting a flagstick when hitting from the green was restored

    - in 2019 the penalty for hitting a flagstick when hitting from the green was eliminated again



    So in the period from before 1899 to now the flagstick rule has gone from no penalty (pre 1899) to penalty (1899 to 1955) to no penalty (1956 to 1967) to penalty (1968 to 2018) to no penalty (post 2019 till ????) and I am sure each time the rule was changed the internet forums of the time exploded with comments about how it is fundamentally changing the game and breaking with tradition etc etc !!!!!!!!



    This is the article that I got the date of the rules changes from (a very interesting read) ........



    https://www.randa.or...sent-FINAL.ashx



    A more detailed site is here:



    http://www.ruleshistory.com/
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    oikos1 wrote:


    Even if it's one putt during one round, if a golfer leaves the flag in thinking they have a better chance of making the putt or leaving it closer to the hole, then the ability to improve one's score has changed and golf has changed fundamentally.



    We know it's not just one putt during one round and since you can't quantify confidence it will never be measured, but it doesn't matter because leaving the flag in now gives the golfer the option of an advantage they did not have before and yes, that fundamentally changes the game.




    You know what we CAN quantify ? Our handicaps.



    Let us know how much lower yours is in say, 6 months or so - AND whether you believe it is due to all those putts that went in when they shouldn't,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or whether the pin in helped you aim.



    Then we'll "know". image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    jellynorth wrote:


    cardoustie wrote:


    I've played with the pin in on my home course on weeknights for years. Sacrilege i know



    Nothing to see folks



    It may help a little but it should speed things up and that's a good thing



    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges




    It's only going to speed things up if everyone agrees to leave the flagstick in or take it out. Otherwise it's a royal pain.



    If this new rule is deemed a success, they might introduce the idea of making it a rule that the flag must always be left in.



    I personally think they threw the baby out with the bath water. A downhill 6 footer at Augusta is not as beautiful or pure with the flagstick in as a potential backstop.




    Agreed. And a few things seem pretty clean if we take a broader view:
    1. It's perhaps painfully obvious the "Pin-In/Out" rule is a myopic effort, at best, to address the "pace of play" issue by the USGA (and hesitant partner, the R&A).
    2. The pretense the USGA & Co. are selling with this is in the name of their favorite cause: to address the pace of play.
    3. Pace of play issues seem little to do with the Rules of Golf, but rather with the management of any said round or tournament, whether that be a local course's PGA Pro who manages daily play, a resort's Director of Golf, a High School Sports/Golf Association, the AJGA, or the PGA Tour, et al. This is where pace of play is controlled (or not) - not via the Rules.
    4. The USGA & Co. seem to be trying to control the Pro game (or perhaps, clumsily, the effects of the Pro game on the Elite Am/Junior game) via the Rules. This doesn't/won't work. And there's no history to suggest otherwise.


    If I were to list, in order of influence, the causes of "pace" issues based on my experiences in casual rounds, tournaments, and watching the pros, I'd have to make three different lists. NONE of these would include leaving the pin in/out.




    1, 2 & 3 are all the same issue. But at least you get to say it 3 times.



    If you've read this board at all (one can see you choose not to contribute much) you'd have seen that BY FAR, the 2 most prevalent reasons for NOT playing are "cost" and "time it takes to play" (or otherwise stated as "slow play"). 3rd place is "miles" behind the first 2.



    So the Rules makers make a number of small, hardly noticeable actually but taken altogether,,,,,,,, changes to speed up play and all people do is complain about it. You, 3 times instead of just the 1. image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



    As for the Pro Tour the USGA couldn't (or shouldn't( care less what the PGA Tour does. If they don't want to play by the Rules they can make up their own. If they want to bifurcate, they can. So that's a non-issue.



    Thanks for your thoughts though. image/hi.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hi:' />
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  • golfer07840golfer07840 Smart ass from Northwest NJMembers Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Loki wrote:


    When I play as a single, I NEVER pull the pin. In fact, sometimes on a one footer, I will hit the ball so hard that it will bounce off the pin so I dont have to bend down and get it out of the hole.



    Guess what? I posted every single one of these rounds...including the ones where they explicitly said these rounds are unpostable. No USGA, I am not cheating anyone, but possibly myself. I'm okay with that.




    Savage post...

    Opinions are my own and are never to be taken seriously.
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,648 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 3, 2019 12:43pm #46
    The game is to get the ball in the hole, not the flagstick. So while being able to leave the pin in may help and may be different than what we are used to, understand that it has gone through in and out stages through history.



    Changing the size of the hole? That would be a fundamental change..
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  • acemandrakeacemandrake ROCHESTER NYMembers Posts: 311 ✭✭✭✭

    Loki wrote:


    When I play as a single, I NEVER pull the pin. In fact, sometimes on a one footer, I will hit the ball so hard that it will bounce off the pin so I dont have to bend down and get it out of the hole.



    Guess what? I posted every single one of these rounds...including the ones where they explicitly said these rounds are unpostable. No USGA, I am not cheating anyone, but possibly myself. I'm okay with that.




    Savage post...




    USGA: It's a game of honor until there is no one there to watch your round.
  • Santiago GolfSantiago Golf I Strive to make you Better Members Posts: 5,034 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I dont see the aiming argument because how often do you aim at the hole on putt. Im aiming a little past on uphill, little short downhill, right/left.
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  • farmerfarmer Members Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I have played hundreds of rounds with the flagstick in place. Unless the wind is bending the stick around (happens a lot here), I have never seen a ball at proper speed be rejected by the stick.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    farmer wrote:


    I have played hundreds of rounds with the flagstick in place. Unless the wind is bending the stick around (happens a lot here), I have never seen a ball at proper speed be rejected by the stick.




    Well then, I guess I've just been lucky witness to anomalies. I've seen several glance off of pins that I'd bet my house would have been in the hole had the pin been out.
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  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,654 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 3, 2019 3:03pm #51


    Loki wrote:


    When I play as a single, I NEVER pull the pin. In fact, sometimes on a one footer, I will hit the ball so hard that it will bounce off the pin so I dont have to bend down and get it out of the hole.



    Guess what? I posted every single one of these rounds...including the ones where they explicitly said these rounds are unpostable. No USGA, I am not cheating anyone, but possibly myself. I'm okay with that.




    Savage post...




    USGA: It's a game of honor until there is no one there to watch your round.




    Or unless you're Dustin Johnson at a US open and you and your playing partners and a walking rules official all agree to something, but dammit were in charge and we feel like changing it!
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  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.


    Yet the Rules allowed the flagstick to be left in place for 12 years, 1956 to 1968. Does that mean the fundamentals changed in 1969, when the penalty was (re)introduced? Was the validity of the US Open or the Masters somehow lessened for those 12 years? This is a change, and one I advocated against, but I don't see it making a significant difference in scoring.




    The object of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as a few strokes as possible. Any rule change that creates the opportunity for more options to score, or less options for that matter, fundamentally changes the game. You say you don't see it making a significant difference in scoring, but it could make a significant difference in who is scoring during a particular round. If someone can gain one stroke by leaving the flag in, where they never had the possibility before, how is that not a fundamental change in scoring? Further, if you were to lose a match to someone who was able to benefit from leaving the flag in over the course of a round, clearly the match/game changed fundamentally from if you had played the match under the 2018 rules?



    I'm also aware of the rule change for that period of time, and yes, the fundamentals for how to score on the green did change, just as they did when the stymie was removed from match play in 1952. While we are no longer playing golf in 1968, just what was the reason for re-instituting the penalty after 1968?



    I'm not arguing right or wrong, or even how or when someone will benefit (and golfers will benefit). I won't even debate the "research" since there seems to be conflicting results, which would be expected this early into the process. I'm simply arguing the opportunity for an advantage that did not exist in the modern era has been introduced into the current rules. In fact, I find the small sample of examples given for it not making a difference equivocal at best. Arguing for handicaps improving or not bears no correlation to the flag being "in/out" and the benefit of a particular moment in time (i.e. putt). Nor does citing examples of "I had a putt that would've gone in had I left the flag out".



    The only fact is that you can now leave an object (vertical flag stick) in the hole, on the green and in the line of play. I don't know about the rest of you, but I will be finding ways to best use this rule to my advantage until it changes.



    Meanwhile there's another thread with people wanting to ban lines on the golf ball. I love this place.
  • Big BenBig Ben Members Posts: 9,131 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    My groups have all decided to leave it in and the few winter rounds we’ve played it speeds things up. Love it!
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,390 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    oikos1 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.


    Yet the Rules allowed the flagstick to be left in place for 12 years, 1956 to 1968. Does that mean the fundamentals changed in 1969, when the penalty was (re)introduced? Was the validity of the US Open or the Masters somehow lessened for those 12 years? This is a change, and one I advocated against, but I don't see it making a significant difference in scoring.




    The object of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as a few strokes as possible. Any rule change that creates the opportunity for more options to score, or less options for that matter, fundamentally changes the game. You say you don't see it making a significant difference in scoring, but it could make a significant difference in who is scoring during a particular round. If someone can gain one stroke by leaving the flag in, where they never had the possibility before, how is that not a fundamental change in scoring? Further, if you were to lose a match to someone who was able to benefit from leaving the flag in over the course of a round, clearly the match/game changed fundamentally from if you had played the match under the 2018 rules?



    I'm also aware of the rule change for that period of time, and yes, the fundamentals for how to score on the green did change, just as they did when the stymie was removed from match play in 1952. While we are no longer playing golf in 1968, just what was the reason for re-instituting the penalty after 1968?



    I'm not arguing right or wrong, or even how or when someone will benefit (and golfers will benefit). I won't even debate the "research" since there seems to be conflicting results, which would be expected this early into the process. I'm simply arguing the opportunity for an advantage that did not exist in the modern era has been introduced into the current rules. In fact, I find the small sample of examples given for it not making a difference equivocal at best. Arguing for handicaps improving or not bears no correlation to the flag being "in/out" and the benefit of a particular moment in time (i.e. putt). Nor does citing examples of "I had a putt that would've gone in had I left the flag out".



    The only fact is that you can now leave an object (vertical flag stick) in the hole, on the green and in the line of play. I don't know about the rest of you, but I will be finding ways to best use this rule to my advantage until it changes.



    Meanwhile there's another thread with people wanting to ban lines on the golf ball. I love this place.


    I can't find anything to disagree with, other than the word "fundamentally". To me, this is a tweak, not a fundamental change.
  • 2putttom2putttom # 1 Oregon Duck fan Members Posts: 10,081 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    josh21120 wrote:

    2putttom wrote:
    over the past months I've heard a lot of players quip " ewww that would of gone in if the pin were out"




    Maybe they choose the option of leaving the pin out moving forward. Cheers!
    ya ....that's kinda like goin to a strip club with empty pockets
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  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.


    Yet the Rules allowed the flagstick to be left in place for 12 years, 1956 to 1968. Does that mean the fundamentals changed in 1969, when the penalty was (re)introduced? Was the validity of the US Open or the Masters somehow lessened for those 12 years? This is a change, and one I advocated against, but I don't see it making a significant difference in scoring.




    The object of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as a few strokes as possible. Any rule change that creates the opportunity for more options to score, or less options for that matter, fundamentally changes the game. You say you don't see it making a significant difference in scoring, but it could make a significant difference in who is scoring during a particular round. If someone can gain one stroke by leaving the flag in, where they never had the possibility before, how is that not a fundamental change in scoring? Further, if you were to lose a match to someone who was able to benefit from leaving the flag in over the course of a round, clearly the match/game changed fundamentally from if you had played the match under the 2018 rules?



    I'm also aware of the rule change for that period of time, and yes, the fundamentals for how to score on the green did change, just as they did when the stymie was removed from match play in 1952. While we are no longer playing golf in 1968, just what was the reason for re-instituting the penalty after 1968?



    I'm not arguing right or wrong, or even how or when someone will benefit (and golfers will benefit). I won't even debate the "research" since there seems to be conflicting results, which would be expected this early into the process. I'm simply arguing the opportunity for an advantage that did not exist in the modern era has been introduced into the current rules. In fact, I find the small sample of examples given for it not making a difference equivocal at best. Arguing for handicaps improving or not bears no correlation to the flag being "in/out" and the benefit of a particular moment in time (i.e. putt). Nor does citing examples of "I had a putt that would've gone in had I left the flag out".



    The only fact is that you can now leave an object (vertical flag stick) in the hole, on the green and in the line of play. I don't know about the rest of you, but I will be finding ways to best use this rule to my advantage until it changes.



    Meanwhile there's another thread with people wanting to ban lines on the golf ball. I love this place.


    I can't find anything to disagree with, other than the word "fundamentally". To me, this is a tweak, not a fundamental change.




    Fair point. It will probably fall somewhere in the middle.



    I will say this. If the intent is to truly "speed up play", it seems both ruling bodies could have put their thinking caps on (and research caps), and come up with a better solution. Golfers are creatures of habit and most will probably continue to do what they have always done. It's going to take a few years where Juniors grow up learning to putt with the flag in before we even see if this has an effect on overall speed of play.



    The number one reason for slow play is too many golfers don't understand the principle of always moving forward. Watch a slow group on a hole and more than likely they drive carts back to balls that should have been hit first, leave carts/bags on the wrong side of the green and don't hit a provisional when there is a chance their ball is out of play. Over 18 holes, that nonsense and misunderstanding of on course etiquette can easily add an extra hour to a round.
  • B_of_HB_of_H Members Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭
    I found it extremely annoying this weekend playing in foursomes. One guy wanted it in on putts longer than 10 feet or so, another always wanted it in, another was using it only in certain situations and I prefer to have it out unless the putt is super long. I really wish they would have left this rule change out of the new rules. if the intent was to speed up play it certainly did the precise opposite in our group.
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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    B_of_H wrote:


    I found it extremely annoying this weekend playing in foursomes. One guy wanted it in on putts longer than 10 feet or so, another always wanted it in, another was using it only in certain situations and I prefer to have it out unless the putt is super long. I really wish they would have left this rule change out of the new rules. if the intent was to speed up play it certainly did the precise opposite in our group.




    ^^^Has been my experience as well^^^
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  • B_of_HB_of_H Members Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭
    Has anyone mentioned that leaving the flagstick in takes away the sound of the ball falling into the cup? I like that sound. The sound of the ball hitting the flagstick? not as appealing for me.
    Srixon z785 9.5* hzrudus black 75g 6.5
    Callaway Rogue Sub Zero 15* hzrdus yellow 76g 6.5
    P790 UDI 18* (all irons KBS tour 130x)
    Mizuno MP18 (7-Pw), SC (5-6), MMC (4)
    Vokey sm7 50*, sm6 55*, TVD-M 60*
    1994 Scotty Cameron by Titleist Newport 35"
  • josh21120josh21120 Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    dpb5031 wrote:
    farmer wrote:


    I have played hundreds of rounds with the flagstick in place. Unless the wind is bending the stick around (happens a lot here), I have never seen a ball at proper speed be rejected by the stick.




    Well then, I guess I've just been lucky witness to anomalies. I've seen several glance off of pins that I'd bet my house would have been in the hole had the pin been out.




    Fortunately, you can choose to remove the pin. Cheers!
  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 435 ✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Let me get this straight. You can incur a two stroke penalty for giving or asking for advice, like for choosing a club, but can now leave an object (flag stick) upright in the line of play when on the green where it once was a two stroke penalty for being struck.



    So, not only is it no longer a penalty, but could be used as an advantage in a game where one stroke can mean the difference between a tour card, making a cut, or thousands of dollars. Oh yeah, and that club championship trophy.



    fun·da·men·tal:



    noun

    noun: fundamental; plural noun: fundamentals

    1.

    a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.



    If having the option of leaving the flag stick in isn't considered a fundamental change, than the rules of golf established by the USGA and RA have no fundamentals.


    Yet the Rules allowed the flagstick to be left in place for 12 years, 1956 to 1968. Does that mean the fundamentals changed in 1969, when the penalty was (re)introduced? Was the validity of the US Open or the Masters somehow lessened for those 12 years? This is a change, and one I advocated against, but I don't see it making a significant difference in scoring.




    The object of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as a few strokes as possible. Any rule change that creates the opportunity for more options to score, or less options for that matter, fundamentally changes the game. You say you don't see it making a significant difference in scoring, but it could make a significant difference in who is scoring during a particular round. If someone can gain one stroke by leaving the flag in, where they never had the possibility before, how is that not a fundamental change in scoring? Further, if you were to lose a match to someone who was able to benefit from leaving the flag in over the course of a round, clearly the match/game changed fundamentally from if you had played the match under the 2018 rules?



    I'm also aware of the rule change for that period of time, and yes, the fundamentals for how to score on the green did change, just as they did when the stymie was removed from match play in 1952. While we are no longer playing golf in 1968, just what was the reason for re-instituting the penalty after 1968?



    I'm not arguing right or wrong, or even how or when someone will benefit (and golfers will benefit). I won't even debate the "research" since there seems to be conflicting results, which would be expected this early into the process. I'm simply arguing the opportunity for an advantage that did not exist in the modern era has been introduced into the current rules. In fact, I find the small sample of examples given for it not making a difference equivocal at best. Arguing for handicaps improving or not bears no correlation to the flag being "in/out" and the benefit of a particular moment in time (i.e. putt). Nor does citing examples of "I had a putt that would've gone in had I left the flag out".



    The only fact is that you can now leave an object (vertical flag stick) in the hole, on the green and in the line of play. I don't know about the rest of you, but I will be finding ways to best use this rule to my advantage until it changes.



    Meanwhile there's another thread with people wanting to ban lines on the golf ball. I love this place.


    I can't find anything to disagree with, other than the word "fundamentally". To me, this is a tweak, not a fundamental change.


    DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.



    For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?



    For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.

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