Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!

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  • farmerfarmer Members Posts: 8,070 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I have played hundreds of rounds with the stick in. You have to be careful in the wind, but that is not a big, mysterious issue. Particularly as I've aged, it helps with depth perception. If a group cannot figure out the stick in/stick out conundrum, they are dumber than the stick. It's just not that hard.
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,649 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Tingting wrote:


    Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster




    So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.


    They would.




    Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To **** with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.
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  • b.mattayb.mattay New WRX'er Members Posts: 511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I disagree with the pin being a visual aid. Very few putts over 1.5 feet are inside the hole.
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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,649 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    b.mattay wrote:


    I disagree with the pin being a visual aid. Very few putts over 1.5 feet are inside the hole.




    Yeah that argument was dead before it even left the tee box. You could always have the flag attended, thus giving you a visual aid.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,548 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Vindog wrote:



    Tingting wrote:


    Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster




    So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.


    They would.




    Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To **** with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.




    To be clear Vin I was asking to play devils advocate vs his statement that anyone wanting it out has to do it themselves. Somehow it escaped him that the pin maybe out first. Lol.



    I’ll always use courtesy and help with the pin anytime I can. Only people I’ve seen say otherwise are the pin in zealots who think anyone wanting it out Are now holding up the game.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Vindog wrote:



    Tingting wrote:


    Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster




    So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.


    They would.




    Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To **** with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.




    To be clear Vin I was asking to play devils advocate vs his statement that anyone wanting it out has to do it themselves. Somehow it escaped him that the pin maybe out first. Lol.



    I'll always use courtesy and help with the pin anytime I can. Only people I've seen say otherwise are the pin in zealots who think anyone wanting it out Are now holding up the game.


    I'm with you, this rule change shouldn't change the way we treat each other on the golf course. Of course, its a lot easier to be a rigid a-hole in a semi-anonymous website than it is in real life.
  • KevinxKevinx Members Posts: 115 ✭✭
    If not taking the flag out speeds up play then not marking your ball no matter where it is should be allowed. Then if speeding up play matters then anything 2 ft is a gimme. What I'm saying is the rule changes are a joke
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Kevinx wrote:


    Unless the pin is never taken out it will speed up play 2 minutes a hole. All the rule changes are stupid. You might as well let the players kick the ball away from behind a tree to so they don't have to go thru the drop routine.

    I will say while playing alone for convenience I always left the flag in.



    Kevinx wrote:


    If not taking the flag out speeds up play then not marking your ball no matter where it is should be allowed. Then if speeding up play matters then anything 2 ft is a gimme. What I'm saying is the rule changes are a joke




    Most of us can read. We got it. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,548 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.




    Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX



    This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.




    Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.




    True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 7, 2019 12:07pm #133




    This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.




    Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.




    True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.




    Everything is in the book



    http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13



    Please see 13-2 and its interpretations
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  • QuigleyDUQuigleyDU Members Posts: 7,419 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Vindog wrote:

    b.mattay wrote:


    I disagree with the pin being a visual aid. Very few putts over 1.5 feet are inside the hole.




    Yeah that argument was dead before it even left the tee box. You could always have the flag attended, thus giving you a visual aid.




    but having someone stand there is distracting. haha
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  • aliikanealiikane Members Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    aliikane wrote:


    I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.


    This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.




    Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    aliikane wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    aliikane wrote:


    I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.


    This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.




    Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.


    Pros have always had the opportunity to have the pin tended, they won't get any new advantage in this aspect from the rule change. But yes, if a player makes a choice that helps him save fractions, and the other players don't take the same advantage, the change can tilt results a bit, occasionally. It kind of makes you question the guys who won't even consider changing their current habits.
  • I_HATE_SNOWI_HATE_SNOW Members Posts: 3,346 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:

    aliikane wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    aliikane wrote:


    I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.


    This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.




    Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.


    Pros have always had the opportunity to have the pin tended, they won't get any new advantage in this aspect from the rule change. But yes, if a player makes a choice that helps him save fractions, and the other players don't take the same advantage, the change can tilt results a bit, occasionally. It kind of makes you question the guys who won't even consider changing their current habits.


    Great point.
  • mankumanku Members Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No pro, or person playing a serious tournament, is going to have a flag tended on a 10 foot or less putt. Why? Because if the person tending spaces out or has difficulty removing the flagstick (which has happened to me a few times...albeit on long putts...fortunately the ball missed the hole), the player will incur a significant penalty. No one will risk that.



    Also, at least for my pea sized brain, having someone next to the hole on a short putt is a visual distraction.



    As I said in my OP, it's a really small sample size so far for me. But I know I'm putting with much more confidence...and in a game where your mind is perhaps the major factor in your performance, that has to mean something.
  • I_HATE_SNOWI_HATE_SNOW Members Posts: 3,346 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I didn't realize tending the flag was such a difficult task, must be tough playing with that bunch.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,393 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    manku wrote:


    No pro, or person playing a serious tournament, is going to have a flag tended on a 10 foot or less putt. Why? Because if the person tending spaces out or has difficulty removing the flagstick (which has happened to me a few times...albeit on long putts...fortunately the ball missed the hole), the player will incur a significant penalty. No one will risk that.



    Also, at least for my pea sized brain, having someone next to the hole on a short putt is a visual distraction.



    As I said in my OP, it's a really small sample size so far for me. But I know I'm putting with much more confidence...and in a game where your mind is perhaps the major factor in your performance, that has to mean something.


    I feel like I've seen a few players have the flag tended on pretty short putts, but I can't name specifics. I know I've seen a few caddies leave the flagstick in the hole until what seems like the very last instant. I think they generally pull it loose first, and set it gently back in, so there won't be any chance of the stick being stuck in the hole. After all, those caddies ARE professionals.
  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Anecdotally, I teed off in a threeball at 7:30 this morning. Never pulled a pin. Finished at 10:20. 73.4/136. And it was paths only.

    IDK how much of it was the pin in, but I'm sure it didn't hurt. Starting to come around.

    As an aside, I did have to touch up some cups after wedging my fat fingers in to pull the ball.
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  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,440 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Fundamentally? Hogwash.



    Incrementally by an itsy bitsy bit....sure.

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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,649 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 5:45pm #143

    Vindog wrote:



    Tingting wrote:


    Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster




    So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.


    They would.




    Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To **** with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.




    To be clear Vin I was asking to play devils advocate vs his statement that anyone wanting it out has to do it themselves. Somehow it escaped him that the pin maybe out first. Lol.



    I'll always use courtesy and help with the pin anytime I can. Only people I've seen say otherwise are the pin in zealots who think anyone wanting it out Are now holding up the game.




    Of course. I was just funnin' around. Rule change shouldn't mean etiquette change. I should mention that in prior threads I did question the new flagstick rule. I didn't care about pace per se, but I brought up that it might be somewhere contrary to the backstopping policy (bit of a stretch) but in the end I thought that it really wasn't going to effect my day on the course.
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    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,649 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    And honestly, if we're talking "fundamental" change to the game? I think local rule e-5 goes further than this one.
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    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    kevcarter wrote:





    This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.




    Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.




    True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.




    Everything is in the book



    [url="http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=13"]http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13[/url]



    Please see 13-2 and its interpretations




    So, the way I read it, if it’s not centered, it can be moved so it is?
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX

    kevcarter wrote:





    This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.




    Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.




    True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.




    Everything is in the book



    [url="http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=13"]http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13[/url]



    Please see 13-2 and its interpretations




    So, the way I read it, if it’s not centered, it can be moved so it is?




    That is how I read it as well.
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    kevcarter wrote:


    kevcarter wrote:






    This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.





    Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.




    True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.




    Everything is in the book



    [url="http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=13"]http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13[/url]



    Please see 13-2 and its interpretations




    So, the way I read it, if it’s not centered, it can be moved so it is?




    That is how I read it as well.




    Oh, and thank you for linking it Kev, made it so much easier.



    BTW, where did Fred go?
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    You are welcome.



    Fred?
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    kevcarter wrote:


    You are welcome.



    Fred?




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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX

    kevcarter wrote:


    You are welcome.



    Fred?




    Flintstone. The avatar.




    Trying to stay a little more under the radar. I guess I’ll leave it at that.
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • WidespreadPanicWidespreadPanic Wizard in the Corner Members Posts: 4,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I made a putt that would’ve gone 20 feet by, maybe off the green. Slammed dead center of the pin and dropped in.
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