Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!

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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12526WRX Points: 1,547Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,526 Titanium Tees
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    oikos1 wrote:


    Ah. So the potential time saved during a round outweighs the potential advantage gained during a round.
    Sure, potentially time can be saved on the golf course in a myriad of ways. Better management by the course operator.... All of the players taking lessons... All of the players being properly fit for clubs-and being properly fit themselves.... Playing ready golf..... Walking faster (could refer back to the fit part)... Unattractive cart girls....

    Some of those would also carry a potential advantage to scoring....image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
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  • oikos1oikos1 Members  2776WRX Points: 552Posts: 2,776 Titanium Tees
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    Shilgy wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Ah. So the potential time saved during a round outweighs the potential advantage gained during a round.
    Sure, potentially time can be saved on the golf course in a myriad of ways. Better management by the course operator.... All of the players taking lessons... All of the players being properly fit for clubs-and being properly fit themselves.... Playing ready golf..... Walking faster (could refer back to the fit part)... Unattractive cart girls....

    Some of those would also carry a potential advantage to scoring.... image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    That's a good list however none of the things you mentioned involve a rule change.
    Posted:
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers  6910WRX Points: 1,235Handicap: 3.9-9.3-7.7 (Health issue)Posts: 6,910 Titanium Tees
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    oikos1 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Ah. So the potential time saved during a round outweighs the potential advantage gained during a round.
    Sure, potentially time can be saved on the golf course in a myriad of ways. Better management by the course operator.... All of the players taking lessons... All of the players being properly fit for clubs-and being properly fit themselves.... Playing ready golf..... Walking faster (could refer back to the fit part)... Unattractive cart girls....

    Some of those would also carry a potential advantage to scoring.... image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    That's a good list however none of the things you mentioned involve a rule change.






    [media=]
    Posted:
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
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    oikos1 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Ah. So the potential time saved during a round outweighs the potential advantage gained during a round.
    Sure, potentially time can be saved on the golf course in a myriad of ways. Better management by the course operator.... All of the players taking lessons... All of the players being properly fit for clubs-and being properly fit themselves.... Playing ready golf..... Walking faster (could refer back to the fit part)... Unattractive cart girls....

    Some of those would also carry a potential advantage to scoring.... image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    That's a good list however none of the things you mentioned involve a rule change.




    Well, now you only have 3 minutes to find and identify your ball, instead of five. How many strokes do we think will be ADDED to scores due to the two minute difference? Here we have a potential disadvantage, related to a rule change centered around pace.



    These things happen to an evolving game, and generally they are insignificant.
    Posted:
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  • whiteout73whiteout73 Members  1059WRX Points: 149Handicap: 3Posts: 1,059 Platinum Tees
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    I had my first negative encounter with the new flagstick rule yesterday - Got rejected on a 20-footer, where the ball would almost surely have gone in without the flagstick, as it really wasn't going very fast. Our greens are freshly sanded after aeration, so leaving the flag in seems to be the correct move, it just didn't turn out that way on this one. Of course, on the next hole, I hit a putt that was tracking toward the hole, when like a foot from going in, it bounced a good 45 degrees to the right after it struck a stone that was half-buried in the sand. I guess the lesson I learned was, don't bother taking putting seriously on sanded greens.
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  • oikos1oikos1 Members  2776WRX Points: 552Posts: 2,776 Titanium Tees
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    Vindog wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:

    oikos1 wrote:


    Ah. So the potential time saved during a round outweighs the potential advantage gained during a round.
    Sure, potentially time can be saved on the golf course in a myriad of ways. Better management by the course operator.... All of the players taking lessons... All of the players being properly fit for clubs-and being properly fit themselves.... Playing ready golf..... Walking faster (could refer back to the fit part)... Unattractive cart girls....

    Some of those would also carry a potential advantage to scoring.... image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    That's a good list however none of the things you mentioned involve a rule change.




    Well, now you only have 3 minutes to find and identify your ball, instead of five. How many strokes do we think will be ADDED to scores due to the two minute difference? Here we have a potential disadvantage, related to a rule change centered around pace.



    These things happen to an evolving game, and generally they are insignificant.




    You are the first person I've heard bring up the rule change in the amount of time allotted to identify a ball as a concern. You seem to be suggesting a potential disadvantage and then imply the rule is insignificant to strokes added to ones score.



    If that is your point, I would agree.
    Posted:
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers  12526WRX Points: 1,547Handicap: 3.2Posts: 12,526 Titanium Tees
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    whiteout73 wrote:


    I had my first negative encounter with the new flagstick rule yesterday - Got rejected on a 20-footer, where the ball would almost surely have gone in without the flagstick, as it really wasn't going very fast. Our greens are freshly sanded after aeration, so leaving the flag in seems to be the correct move, it just didn't turn out that way on this one. Of course, on the next hole, I hit a putt that was tracking toward the hole, when like a foot from going in, it bounced a good 45 degrees to the right after it struck a stone that was half-buried in the sand. I guess the lesson I learned was, don't bother taking putting seriously on sanded greens.
    Wait wait wait... So it's actually a potential disadvantage? Hmm. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
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  • taylormade113taylormade113 Members  901WRX Points: 98Handicap: 2.5Posts: 901 Golden Tee
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    Over the weekend I saw my first pin rejection. My son had a 20' that caught the pin on a glancing blow and caused it to deflect and catch the lip and then lip out. It was very interesting. We both saw it happen and just stared for a sec, and the wheels were turning. We both agree that leaving the flag at distance is helpful for lag putting, but after seeing that, it gave us pause on what we would do 20' and in. I still like the flag in, especially in casual rounds but he plays for his college and it caused him to reconsider leaving it in at closer range during tournaments.
    Posted:
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers  6910WRX Points: 1,235Handicap: 3.9-9.3-7.7 (Health issue)Posts: 6,910 Titanium Tees
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    Over the weekend I saw my first pin rejection. My son had a 20' that caught the pin on a glancing blow and caused it to deflect and catch the lip and then lip out. It was very interesting. We both saw it happen and just stared for a sec, and the wheels were turning. We both agree that leaving the flag at distance is helpful for lag putting, but after seeing that, it gave us pause on what we would do 20' and in. I still like the flag in, especially in casual rounds but he plays for his college and it caused him to reconsider leaving it in at closer range during tournaments.




    On the low side ? My observations have caused me to conclude that this can and will happen on the low side more often than the high side (gravity and all).



    Problem is though, that while we "swear" it would have gone in (or stayed out for that matter), there's no way to know for sure,,,,,,, image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />
    Posted:
  • stixmanstixman Hew to the line. Let the divots fall where they may. 1926 Golf I Members  1888WRX Points: 155Posts: 1,888 Platinum Tees
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    Vindog wrote:

    stixman wrote:


    Yes, I agree with the OP. It fundamentally changed the game back in 1968. Quite unnecessary.



    It was introduced by the R&A to the benefit of elite players, a very small minority esp. in those days with very little media coverage.

    The USGA? Well I couldn't possibly comment.




    Out of curiosity, I wonder how adding a penalty situation benefits the elite player. Do you have any insight as to that?




    Sorry for the late reply, I've been away.

    As I remember the issue of penalty wasn't discussed between us at any rate.

    The reason given that I heard was something about leaving the flag in infringed equity and fairness in some way and introduced chance into the deal. We all thought it was B****cks at the time, as it is now imo.
    Posted:
  • davep043davep043 Members  4964WRX Points: 2,178Handicap: 6.3Posts: 4,964 Titanium Tees
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    stixman wrote:

    Vindog wrote:

    stixman wrote:


    Yes, I agree with the OP. It fundamentally changed the game back in 1968. Quite unnecessary.



    It was introduced by the R&A to the benefit of elite players, a very small minority esp. in those days with very little media coverage.

    The USGA? Well I couldn't possibly comment.




    Out of curiosity, I wonder how adding a penalty situation benefits the elite player. Do you have any insight as to that?




    Sorry for the late reply, I've been away.

    As I remember the issue of penalty wasn't discussed between us at any rate.

    The reason given that I heard was something about leaving the flag in infringed equity and fairness in some way and introduced chance into the deal. We all thought it was B****cks at the time, as it is now imo.


    That's an interesting comment (I know it wasn't you). It seems that equity, treating similar situations similarly, would be unaffected. Whether the falgstick could be left in or had to be removed offered every player the identical choices, how could it be more fair?. And chance is always part of the deal in golf. Ah well, the rules are what they are, we'll see how it works out.
    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

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  • gioguy21gioguy21 NJMembers  8151WRX Points: 1,379Handicap: +1.5 (1194646)Posts: 8,151 Titanium Tees
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    i have to say -- i've experimented a bit over the first few rounds this season and have come up with a reasonable plan this season for whether i decide to leave it in, or out.



    - if the putt is something i believe i can REASONABLY make -- i take the pin out.

    - if the putt is outside the realm of reasonably making it -- i leave it in.



    while i know that makes no sense b/c we should always believe we can make everything - i'm a realist. outside 20-25' or so and i'm realistically trying to leave myself the 3' circle.
    Posted:

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  • davep043davep043 Members  4964WRX Points: 2,178Handicap: 6.3Posts: 4,964 Titanium Tees
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    gioguy21 wrote:


    i have to say -- i've experimented a bit over the first few rounds this season and have come up with a reasonable plan this season for whether i decide to leave it in, or out.



    - if the putt is something i believe i can REASONABLY make -- i take the pin out.

    - if the putt is outside the realm of reasonably making it -- i leave it in.



    while i know that makes no sense b/c we should always believe we can make everything - i'm a realist. outside 20-25' or so and i'm realistically trying to leave myself the 3' circle.


    This is becoming my approach. The other justification, on shorter putts I can control my distance reasonably well. Putts with good speed don't need much assistance from the flagstick. Longer putts are the ones where I'm more likely to hit it significantly too hard, and its on the "too hard" putts that the flagstick is most likely to help. Either it helps the ball go in, or helps it to stay closer. If I accidentally hit the hole, of course, which isn't all that often from 20 feet or more.
    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

  • gioguy21gioguy21 NJMembers  8151WRX Points: 1,379Handicap: +1.5 (1194646)Posts: 8,151 Titanium Tees
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    davep043 wrote:

    gioguy21 wrote:


    i have to say -- i've experimented a bit over the first few rounds this season and have come up with a reasonable plan this season for whether i decide to leave it in, or out.



    - if the putt is something i believe i can REASONABLY make -- i take the pin out.

    - if the putt is outside the realm of reasonably making it -- i leave it in.



    while i know that makes no sense b/c we should always believe we can make everything - i'm a realist. outside 20-25' or so and i'm realistically trying to leave myself the 3' circle.


    This is becoming my approach. The other justification, on shorter putts I can control my distance reasonably well. Putts with good speed don't need much assistance from the flagstick. Longer putts are the ones where I'm more likely to hit it significantly too hard, and its on the "too hard" putts that the flagstick is most likely to help. Either it helps the ball go in, or helps it to stay closer. If I accidentally hit the hole, of course, which isn't all that often from 20 feet or more.


    i was going to type that but...figured i'd get a TLDR haha our speed control confidence and outlook is very much the same.
    Posted:

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  • xxioxxio Cebu, PhilippinesMembers  5840WRX Points: 291Posts: 5,840 Titanium Tees
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    From my personal experienceI have now concluded leaving the pin in saves a foursome about 12-15minutes a round, but the difficulty of taking a ball out of the hole with the pin in adds 5 minutes. So a net of 7-10minutes.
    Posted:
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers  6910WRX Points: 1,235Handicap: 3.9-9.3-7.7 (Health issue)Posts: 6,910 Titanium Tees
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    xxio wrote:


    From my personal experienceI have now concluded leaving the pin in saves a foursome about 12-15minutes a round, but the difficulty of taking a ball out of the hole with the pin in adds 5 minutes. So a net of 7-10minutes.




    image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



    Even the 80-somethings I sometimes play with are having no trouble at all picking the ball out of the hole, with the pin still in, using the index and middle finger "pinch". image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    Posted:
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  • new2g0lfnew2g0lf Members  3450WRX Points: 363Posts: 3,450 Titanium Tees
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    davep043 wrote:

    gioguy21 wrote:


    i have to say -- i've experimented a bit over the first few rounds this season and have come up with a reasonable plan this season for whether i decide to leave it in, or out.



    - if the putt is something i believe i can REASONABLY make -- i take the pin out.

    - if the putt is outside the realm of reasonably making it -- i leave it in.



    while i know that makes no sense b/c we should always believe we can make everything - i'm a realist. outside 20-25' or so and i'm realistically trying to leave myself the 3' circle.


    This is becoming my approach. The other justification, on shorter putts I can control my distance reasonably well. Putts with good speed don't need much assistance from the flagstick. Longer putts are the ones where I'm more likely to hit it significantly too hard, and its on the "too hard" putts that the flagstick is most likely to help. Either it helps the ball go in, or helps it to stay closer. If I accidentally hit the hole, of course, which isn't all that often from 20 feet or more.




    After another 3 weeks of Florida golf I have adopted the same approach. I take the pin out 6' and closer otherwise I leave it in.



    I'm more concerned by some new side effects of the rule, guys trying to use ball removers without pulling the flag. Older guys and lazy ones seem to have grown tired of pulling the flag and using the prongs at the end of their grip to retrieve their ball, they now wedge the grip between the hole and flag to pull out their ball which does all sorts of damage to the hole, almost every time causing a volcano effect on the side they pull the ball out from. This costs more time as someone now has walk up to the flag just to tap down the edges of the hole to ensure the ball can roll in unobstructed.



    It also seems to result in more gimmes as it seems many in Florida don't like trying to retrieve their ball from the hole with the flag in, so they sweep the ball away within 3' of the hole. It will be interesting to see what the overall impact on handicap will be with this rule.
    Posted:
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX  15164WRX Points: 1,224Posts: 15,164 ClubWRX
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    new2g0lf wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    gioguy21 wrote:


    i have to say -- i've experimented a bit over the first few rounds this season and have come up with a reasonable plan this season for whether i decide to leave it in, or out.



    - if the putt is something i believe i can REASONABLY make -- i take the pin out.

    - if the putt is outside the realm of reasonably making it -- i leave it in.



    while i know that makes no sense b/c we should always believe we can make everything - i'm a realist. outside 20-25' or so and i'm realistically trying to leave myself the 3' circle.


    This is becoming my approach. The other justification, on shorter putts I can control my distance reasonably well. Putts with good speed don't need much assistance from the flagstick. Longer putts are the ones where I'm more likely to hit it significantly too hard, and its on the "too hard" putts that the flagstick is most likely to help. Either it helps the ball go in, or helps it to stay closer. If I accidentally hit the hole, of course, which isn't all that often from 20 feet or more.




    After another 3 weeks of Florida golf I have adopted the same approach. I take the pin out 6' and closer otherwise I leave it in.



    I'm more concerned by some new side effects of the rule, guys trying to use ball removers without pulling the flag. Older guys and lazy ones seem to have grown tired of pulling the flag and using the prongs at the end of their grip to retrieve their ball, they now wedge the grip between the hole and flag to pull out their ball which does all sorts of damage to the hole, almost every time causing a volcano effect on the side they pull the ball out from. This costs more time as someone now has walk up to the flag just to tap down the edges of the hole to ensure the ball can roll in unobstructed.



    It also seems to result in more gimmes as it seems many in Florida don't like trying to retrieve their ball from the hole with the flag in, so they sweep the ball away within 3' of the hole. It will be interesting to see what the overall impact on handicap will be with this rule.




    Interesting. There really just isn’t any way to anticipate all the “side effects” a change can have is there?
    Posted:

  • T.B.T.B. Members  322WRX Points: 109Handicap: 10Posts: 322 Greens
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    I’ve played 4 times this year and putts within 15 feet I remove the flag. I’ve had some longer putts that I’ve left in. Here’s the thing,,, why would anyone leave it in the hole? Back stop to a speeding golf ball?,,, ok when it hits the stick and ricochets 15 feet your still going to 3 putt. I’ve watched guys bang them off the flag now for a few rounds and I’m tired of it already. Take the flag out.

    Posted:
  • SurfDufferSurfDuffer Members  3024WRX Points: 182Posts: 3,024 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @cardoustie said:

    And I'm also guessing the pin gets splatted a whole lot less on greens as well, plus less chances of tearing up cup edges

    The pin getting splatted on the green is one of my biggest pet peeves. I've started a couple of threads about this topic complete with pictures of the tracks it leaves on the green for the people who play late in the day. The tracks can really alter a putt if you have to putt down one of them.

    Posted:
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    Only thing i'd say is make sure the pin is squarely in the bottom and going right up the center of the hole. Had one get rejected because the pin wasn't flush and was more covering up the side of the hole the ball was tracking to, would have surely been in if it was flush and not slightly leaning.

    Posted:
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  • 3jacker3jacker Members  1185WRX Points: 840Posts: 1,185 Platinum Tees
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    Stats prove otherwise. Pin in helps more putts/chips struck at a reasonable speed. We just tend to remember the rejections a lot more.

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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2449WRX Points: 1,429Handicap: +0.9Posts: 2,449 ClubWRX
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    On -, @3jacker said:

    Stats prove otherwise. Pin in helps more putts/chips struck at a reasonable speed. We just tend to remember the rejections a lot more.

    Actually that is not true based on the various studies myself and others have read about. I have yet to see a definitive test which accounts for the correct putt speeds, green speeds, approach angle, slope, flag type, etc... . There have been multiple studies supporting an advantage and multiple studies showing disadvantages. None were comprehensive. If you can point out a comprehensive test then point it out to the forum.

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    I have a couple studies at my fingertips but know that by using the term "comprehensive" this will never end.

    Posted:
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  • Popeye64Popeye64 Members  1109WRX Points: 261Handicap: .2Posts: 1,109 Platinum Tees
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    The ability to have the flag tended is the same 'visual aid' that it has always been. So leaving it in in long putts has changed very little. I'm sure at the end of the year the PGA putting stats will not show a huge advantage on putts made from long distance as the percentages are already fairly low.
    For the casual golfer I doubt there will be a huge impact on anything other than a possible pace of play increase. I just dont see it being a huge change either way.

    Posted:
  • farmerfarmer Members  8701WRX Points: 1,098Posts: 8,701 Titanium Tees
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    My BIL belongs to a fairly large club in the Houston area. The club has always been emphatic about pace of play and has been pretty insistent on leaving the flag in. My BIL is one of a large group that plays a multi foursome money game. He says they have cut 20-25 minutes off their rounds by leaving the flag in place. The reason is that with the flag always in, a group in the fairway can shoot their distances while a group is still on the green, so as soon as the group clears, everyone is good to go. I hadn't thought of it, but it makes sense.

    Posted:
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  • legitimategolflegitimategolf Golf hard New York NYUnregistered  4853WRX Points: 827Posts: 4,853 Titanium Tees
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    edit: never mind, I set off the censor. I am sorry

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  • jbole267jbole267 CalgaryMembers  402WRX Points: 107Handicap: 1Posts: 402 Greens
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    On -, @T.B. said:

    I’ve played 4 times this year and putts within 15 feet I remove the flag. I’ve had some longer putts that I’ve left in. Here’s the thing,,, why would anyone leave it in the hole? Back stop to a speeding golf ball?,,, ok when it hits the stick and ricochets 15 feet your still going to 3 putt. I’ve watched guys bang them off the flag now for a few rounds and I’m tired of it already. Take the flag out.

    Lol. Whoever is banging the pin on putts and having the ball ricochet 15 ft needs some putting help haha.

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  • T.B.T.B. Members  322WRX Points: 109Handicap: 10Posts: 322 Greens
    Joined:  #210

    very true. lol I don't think that the pin should be in

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers  6910WRX Points: 1,235Handicap: 3.9-9.3-7.7 (Health issue)Posts: 6,910 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #211

    On -, @T.B. said:

    very true. lol I don't think that the pin should be in

    So ? Take it out. You don't HAVE to leave it in,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    Posted:
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