USGA PR team to Justin Thomas: "We need to talk"

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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    MattyO1984 wrote:

    davep043 wrote:

    nsxguy wrote:



    This might be the thing that drives the PGA Tour away from the USGA and to their own set of modified rules.




    https://twitter.com/...s-golf-pushback



    Does this sound like the PGA is going away from the USGA ?



    Or do you believe this is akin to a "vote of confidence" from a baseball owner about his manager ?




    I think this is an adult representative of the PGA Tour telling the juveniles that they're wrong, that the PGA Tour was involved with the rules revision all along, that the ruleing bodies DID listen to the PGA Tours suggestions. He;s telling the boys who complain about lack of communication that there has been plenty of communication, and there will continue to be. Maybe the players won't like it, maybe they'll vote Monahan out, but he's doing his job, even if he is a little late to the party.


    MattyO1984 wrote:


    Don't get me wrong, as it comes to the rules, I think the changes that they have tried to make with the R&A seemed reasonably when written down on paper. In practical terms that hasn't borne out to be true. JT is pointing it out. Could he have done it in a different fashion, sure but why should he. He is a product of his generation and social media has given his generation an ability to be heard without the need to use the press or contacts or back channels. They are simply able to get out there and tell everyone what they think and that is a good thing.




    The problem with JT and some of the others is that they have had plenty of time to learn the rules, plenty of time to meet both with USGA officials and with their own PGA Tour rules officials, and they apparently have done none of that. JT claims he's all about the good of the game, can anyone look at comments like "They're all terrible" as being constructive, good for the game? Can Rickie really look at his ball-drop parody and claim that the look he presented is "good for the game"? I could see if they had said "I don't believe we need to limit the roll-out of a dropped ball, that's why I don't like the knee-high drop". But no, they don't like it because its a change, and because it "looks silly". I've said it numerous times. Its perfectly fair to disagree with the purpose of the rules, or the method of achieving that purpose. But to do that, you really need to educate yourself first. Popping off in 100 characters isn't ever going to be constructive.
    Don't get me wrong, as it comes to the rules, I think the changes that they have tried to make with the R&A seemed reasonably when written down on paper. In practical terms that hasn't borne out to be true. JT is pointing it out. Could he have done it in a different fashion, sure but why should he. He is a product of his generation and social media has given his generation an ability to be heard without the need to use the press or contacts or back channels. They are simply able to get out there and tell everyone what they think and that is a good thing.



    The difference between JT's tweets and the USGA tweet is that JT was expressing an opinion and the USGA were essentially trying to make false statements come across as fact. That the USGA cannot get it's house in order when it comes to twitter really makes you realise that it is no wonder that they cannot put on a golf tournament without looking like a laughing stock. Got to believe that JT's agency/lawyer was in contact with the USGA to point out their defamatory tweet and that resulted in the swift change of their tune and I would not be surprised if there was a donation being made to JT's charity/foundation of choice to show just how sorry they were.




    Thank you Dave, you saved me about 20 minutes of typing.



    I agree totally with your take. Yes, the USGA screwed the pooch with that first tweet and I expect that guy or gal who tweeted it is either severely reprimanded or looking for a new job.



    Monahan's statement is (partially) exactly that "Shut up younguns and let the adults talk". And yeah, maybe he does get voted out but I'm hoping the silent majority(?), the more mature & levelheaded(?) PGA Tour Pros are a bit more grounded.



    And if anyone thinks there wasn't ongoing communication during 2018 about the new Rules starting jan 1 I've got a bridge I'd like to sell ya. And if there WASN'T, then Monahan should've already lost his job.



    And NOBODY here (at least that i can remember) is chastising, or has chastised JT, for making his opinions known. They've chastised him for not making a legitimate argument and whining about being not being communicated with.



    This, when anyone even casually concerned with the Rules knew, for AT LEAST A YEAR, there were new Rules coming about - and JT and other pros couldn't be bothered to learn them. The ladies, who the most controversial rule was re-written for, didn't have a single issue with it - at least not that I've seen.



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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:


    davep043 wrote:


    Please note, I specifically said I was not defending the USGA. I remain unconvinced that their second statement is absolute truth, while their first is an absolute fabrication. I just know from personal experience that sometimes its best to eat a little ____, even tell lies to ease the pressure on an "adversary" in order to move the process forward a bit. I don't know that that's what happened, but its certainly a reasonable course of action, rather than documenting every attempted contact with JT for public consumption.








    Lose the battle to win the war? So to speak.


    I've been married for 34 years, its an extremely valuable tactic. But it also works many times in contact negotiations, in construction claim negotiation, lots of different uses.




    When faced with a lose-lose situation, especially amongst partners, often the best thing to do is to find a way to disengage. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,594 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    HitEmTrue wrote:



    It's not a lie. It's a calculated statement to squash the uprising.




    Yet you accused the USGA of lying when they made yesterday's statement.




    If they had why hasn't this statement to the players been released say around October 2018 ?




    You don't know what communication happened inside of the tour in 2018, regarding the rules. It wasn't a news item, and wouldn't have been released to the public.




    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    It's not a lie. It's a calculated statement to squash the uprising.




    Yet you accused the USGA of lying when they made yesterday's statement.




    If they had why hasn't this statement to the players been released say around October 2018 ?




    You don't know what communication happened inside of the tour in 2018, regarding the rules. It wasn't a news item, and wouldn't have been released to the public.




    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?


    Maybe that was the truth, and they lied in the second tweet in order to make peace. The two statements don't agree, one is certainly inaccurate. You and I have no direct knowledge to be able to tell which one it is.
  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    davep043 wrote:



    I'd say plenty of correspondence has/had had occurred. I'm sure in a one sided manner. And maybe that's how it has to be ? But I do see why JT wouldn't want to engage in any further one sided talks during a work week. Bad for the mindset. But I'm not sure how we're still leaping to a canceled anything. The USga asking for a conference call and JT saying not now isn't canceling. It's postponing . Semantics ? Maybe. But words mattter when calling someone out.



    USga would have been best served by releasing this " we're contacting JT now to discuss his grievances in private , we're aware of his concerns and value his imput ". That give at least the appearance of giving a **** and is technically " communication ". Easy peasy . Hands clean. Their ego got in the way of that.



    As for the pga having a seat at the table. ? Lol. I'm sure they did. As spectators , much like Mikes moments of enlightenment on the range at pebble ... I'd pay $ for the minutes of those meetings. It would bust this wide open I'm sure.


    Words matter when you've chosen to cut off communication, then say that THEY need to "start communicating". It works both ways, and I still believe that the real truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm not claiming that the USGA handled it well, but perhaps using Twitter was a last resort to get a hold of someone who has said "don't call me this week".



    And now you're saying Monahan's statements, Slumbers's statement, and Thomas Bjorn's, are lies? I know you always believe the worst about the USGA, but you seem to respect the others. I'll quote it again, you're saying this is a lie.
    [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]“During this process, we put forward a lengthy list of recommendations to improve the rules in many ways, including the removal of numerous penalties, and virtually all our suggestions were incorporated,” Monahan wrote[/background]





    Sorry Dave, but I disagree here. Using Monahan’s statement about the rules doesn’t excuse the USGA blantanly fabricating facts.



    This has now moved onto another level from the initial rules issues, which Monohan’s statement was in regard to, to a very real question of the USGA’s credibility, and even integrity. When you come out and admit you lied, your reputation takes a massive hit. For the life of me I can’t imagine why they made that statement, leave it a “he said, she said” situation and let it die, which it will. Probably sooner than later.



    Damon Hack asked a very pertinent question this morning, “who’se running the ship over there”. How does an entity of this position let something like this happen




    Same guys who built this garage



    be0d9c4b6082bf746772e9f8a620b3bf.jpg
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    bscinstnct wrote:


    davep043 wrote:



    I'd say plenty of correspondence has/had had occurred. I'm sure in a one sided manner. And maybe that's how it has to be ? But I do see why JT wouldn't want to engage in any further one sided talks during a work week. Bad for the mindset. But I'm not sure how we're still leaping to a canceled anything. The USga asking for a conference call and JT saying not now isn't canceling. It's postponing . Semantics ? Maybe. But words mattter when calling someone out.



    USga would have been best served by releasing this " we're contacting JT now to discuss his grievances in private , we're aware of his concerns and value his imput ". That give at least the appearance of giving a **** and is technically " communication ". Easy peasy . Hands clean. Their ego got in the way of that.



    As for the pga having a seat at the table. ? Lol. I'm sure they did. As spectators , much like Mikes moments of enlightenment on the range at pebble ... I'd pay $ for the minutes of those meetings. It would bust this wide open I'm sure.


    Words matter when you've chosen to cut off communication, then say that THEY need to "start communicating". It works both ways, and I still believe that the real truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm not claiming that the USGA handled it well, but perhaps using Twitter was a last resort to get a hold of someone who has said "don't call me this week".



    And now you're saying Monahan's statements, Slumbers's statement, and Thomas Bjorn's, are lies? I know you always believe the worst about the USGA, but you seem to respect the others. I'll quote it again, you're saying this is a lie.
    [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]“During this process, we put forward a lengthy list of recommendations to improve the rules in many ways, including the removal of numerous penalties, and virtually all our suggestions were incorporated,” Monahan wrote[/background]





    Sorry Dave, but I disagree here. Using Monahan’s statement about the rules doesn’t excuse the USGA blantanly fabricating facts.



    This has now moved onto another level from the initial rules issues, which Monohan’s statement was in regard to, to a very real question of the USGA’s credibility, and even integrity. When you come out and admit you lied, your reputation takes a massive hit. For the life of me I can’t imagine why they made that statement, leave it a “he said, she said” situation and let it die, which it will. Probably sooner than later.



    Damon Hack asked a very pertinent question this morning, “who’se running the ship over there”. How does an entity of this position let something like this happen




    Same guys who built this garage



    be0d9c4b6082bf746772e9f8a620b3bf.jpg




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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    bscinstnct wrote:




    Same guys who built this garage



    be0d9c4b6082bf746772e9f8a620b3bf.jpg




    Don’t you hate it when the blueprints get turned upside down!


    Actually, the orientation is right, the roof still points up. They just got the pages out of order.
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,559 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 12:31pm #459


    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?




    Or they tried to smooth things over.



    But I was really referring to something you said about the second tweet, calling it a lie, too. Maybe I misunderstood you.
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 12:47pm #460
    HitEmTrue wrote:



    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?




    Or they tried to smooth things over.



    But I was really referring to something you said about the second tweet, calling it a lie, too. Maybe I misunderstood you.




    I believe his comment about the "admission" was "It's not a lie. It's a calculated statement to squash the uprising."



    But I could be wrong. I find my buddy bh hard to follow sometimes. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />
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  • umassgolferumassgolfer Members Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow. USGA's PR team is giving a master class in how not to do crisis management...which is ironic but sadly not unexpected



    But at the same time, I am still not understanding why a PGA TOUR player (or a collection of PGA TOUR players) should have any impact on the rules governing the sport? Their league...different story...
  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    nsxguy wrote:

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?




    Or they tried to smooth things over.



    But I was really referring to something you said about the second tweet, calling it a lie, too. Maybe I misunderstood you.




    I believe his comment about the "admission" was "It's not a lie. It's a calculated statement to squash the uprising."



    But I could be wrong. I find my buddy bh hard to follow sometimes. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />




    I believe ClintDagger said the first tweet was close to the truth, which would necessarily make the second tweet a lie. I thought BH was pointing that out, but could be wrong.
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  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    This whole dynamic would lend itself well to those old school political cartoons.
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  • MMB1500MMB1500 Members Posts: 6,395 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 1:03pm #464
    Why didn't Thomas and co. find the time to test out the proposed rules during practice rounds and then provide feedback before their implementation?



    It's easy to b!tch afterwards but it's not as if they weren't warned.
  • MMB1500MMB1500 Members Posts: 6,395 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    MattyO1984 wrote:


    Wondering what the reaction would be if it was someone less controversial questioning the USGA.



    After the incident at last years Honda (in which he was quite right to have the fan chucked in my opinion) he has picked up a label of being a whiner. Nothing wrong with standing up for yourself or expressing an opinion. Same old, same old though. Players are too uniform, they are too bland, they don't have an opinion. A player comes along and expresses an opinion then they end up getting ripped online.




    Not entirely true. Koepka hasn't exactly been holding back with his views lately and he's mostly had support for his comments, mainly because he's right.
  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Members Posts: 5,393 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    imakaveli wrote:


    It's incredible... just when you think USGA can't do any worse... they surprise us.




    They can't pin half of this fiasco on the R&A.
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  • lawsonmanlawsonman Freeport, IllinoisMembers Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I've gotten to the point where all this makes my head hurt and I just don't care anymore.
    Welcome to where dumb opinions are better than no opinion. :)

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,594 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 1:34pm #468
    HitEmTrue wrote:



    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?




    Or they tried to smooth things over.



    But I was really referring to something you said about the second tweet, calling it a lie, too. Maybe I misunderstood you.




    Sorry. I am a scattered pile of mess.





    I was talking about the pgas statement to the players regarding their imput on the rules changes. Not truly a lie. It has enough truth I’m sure to forgo the plausible deniability test. I just don’t buy that they have any real pull in the situation. If they did why all the “ let’s get a clarification “ talk with the caddie lining rule ? They seemed so clueless as to even the intent or wording of the rule ? And yet they were involved in writing it ? Doesn’t pass the sniff test.
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  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 439 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 1:34pm #469
    Things I've learned:



    Pros tweet what they're feeling at the moment, because that's the new norm for communications.



    If USGA does the same, they're doing it all wrong. They should be reserved, and professional.



    A lot of people just hate the USGA no matter what. Given their last n (where n is a big number) setups for the USOpen, I understand where it comes from. But there are different people and groups within the USGA that are responsible for the rules, and the Open. So you need to be able to differentiate between them.



    The pros have a seat at the rules table. Very few of them seem aware of this. Why?



    The new rules aren't perfect. Ricky realizes this. The old ones weren't either....



    People don't like change. And... they don't like informing themselves about changes that affect their livelihood. If they don't care about things that affect their earnings, why would the rest of us?



    USGA tweet had an error in it. Maybe.
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?




    Or they tried to smooth things over.



    But I was really referring to something you said about the second tweet, calling it a lie, too. Maybe I misunderstood you.




    Sorry. I am a scattered pile of mess.





    I was talking about the pgas statement to the players regarding their imput on the rules changes. Not truly a lie. It has enough truth I'm sure go forgo the plausible deniability test. I just don't buy that they have any real pull in the situation. If they did why all the " let's get a clarification " talk with the caddie lining rule ? They seemed so clueless as to even the intent or wording of the rule ? And yet they were involved in writing it ? Doesn't pass the sniff test.


    The caddie rule didn't change between the spring 2017 draft version and the final version. I don't believe anyone really anticipated how the words used might be interpreted in real life, not the USGA, not the R&A, not the PGA Tour orr any of them. The McCarthy penalty took them ALL by surprise, that a stance maybe 3 inches away from final position could be called "close to a position where useful guidance .... could be given". But 3 inches really IS pretty close, so they (appropriately) provided a clarification pretty quickly, and withdrew the penalty. Really, would any of us have read that wording and imagined the situation for McCarthy. I just find it hard to believe that PGA Tour involvement, even if it truly wasn't;t involved at the review stages, could have caught every possible "glitch" in the rules as written.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,594 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 1:57pm #471
    I get that too Dave. That’s why I feel like it’s a carefully worded half truth. They aren’t oblivious but they clearly aren’t fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn’t Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn’t he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It’s just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren’t included and the USga says the tour was isn’t that a big big issue of people not understanding who’s imput is valuable ?
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  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,559 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:


    Really, would any of us have read that wording and imagined the situation for McCarthy. I just find it hard to believe that PGA Tour involvement, even if it truly wasn't;t involved at the review stages, could have caught every possible "glitch" in the rules as written.




    It is what I was talking about in post #98, #103, and #105 in the Haotong Li thread. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> McCarthy did it further away than chipping, though.



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1737322-haotong-li-penalty/page__st__90
  • RangeballzRangeballz Members Posts: 1,769 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Who runs the USGA, the president (Newell) or the executive director (Davis)?
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX


    I get that too Dave. That’s why I feel like it’s a carefully worded half truth. They aren’t oblivious but they clearly aren’t fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn’t Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn’t he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It’s just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren’t included and the USga says the tour was isn’t that a big big issue of people not understanding who’s imput is valuable ?




    I suppose Commissioner Monaghan was lying in the document he sent to his players? It’s pretty strongly worded as far as their participation and influence.
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  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 439 ✭✭✭✭


    I get that too Dave. That's why I feel like it's a carefully worded half truth. They aren't oblivious but they clearly aren't fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn't Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn't he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It's just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren't included and the USga says the tour was isn't that a big big issue of people not understanding who's imput is valuable ?




    The USGA, the R&A and The Tour officials all say the Tour was involved right from the beginning, and their input was used to make changes. I know you distrust the USGA, but what about the Tour and the R&A? All complicit, or am I misreading what you're saying?



    Not all the Tour players had (or took the opportunity) input into every rule change. I'll bet most of them mostly ignore the changes until they're final, and then give a quick look. They've got more interesting and higher priorities pretty much every day. That's no surprise.



    A story: I was once involved in making a number of rules for testing some commercial products. Working in a team, we evaluated vendor offerings against the rules. To my surprise, we failed a vendor on a specific item that I'd been responsible for writing. It was my opinion that the product passed - in fact was the best one we tested on this. But.... the committee felt that it didn't meet the rule "as written". The vendor was forced to change their product to meet the committee's interpretation. Made me weep.



    TLDR? Things don't always work out the way you think they will or should.....
  • North TexasNorth Texas Members Posts: 4,399 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    I get that too Dave. That's why I feel like it's a carefully worded half truth. They aren't oblivious but they clearly aren't fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn't Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn't he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It's just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren't included and the USga says the tour was isn't that a big big issue of people not understanding who's imput is valuable ?




    Just curious.



    Are you making assumptions about how much interaction there was between the various tours and the USGA/R&A? Or do you know the ACTUAL facts of what all went on?

    Is it a fact that Spieth and JT never conversed about any of this? Or is that also an assumption?
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 2:30pm #477


    I get that too Dave. That's why I feel like it's a carefully worded half truth. They aren't oblivious but they clearly aren't fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn't Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn't he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It's just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren't included and the USga says the tour was isn't that a big big issue of people not understanding who's imput is valuable ?


    I don't think we've been told who represented the PGA Tour through the rulesmaking process. Remember that it happened over a 7 year period, lots of players cycled in and out of the tour, and the Players Advisory Council. I would hope it would have included some of the real experts with the tour, Slugger White and/or other people from within the rules staff. I would hope that a number of players were involved, but I don't know who. But I have no illusions that every tour player would have been kept informed, or would even care to be informed, or would remember anything he was told about the rules and the changes. If a player isn't aware of the changes, or feel that he wasn't given the chance to influence the process, I blame the individual player, not the USGA, not Monahan, not the PAC, not Slugger, but each individual player.
  • North TexasNorth Texas Members Posts: 4,399 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 2:38pm #478
    davep043 wrote:



    I get that too Dave. That's why I feel like it's a carefully worded half truth. They aren't oblivious but they clearly aren't fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn't Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn't he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It's just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren't included and the USga says the tour was isn't that a big big issue of people not understanding who's imput is valuable ?


    I don't think we've been told who represented the PGA Tour through the rulesmaking process. Remember that it happened over a 7 year period, lots of players cycled in and out of the tour, and the Players Advisory Council. I would hope it would have included some of the real experts with the tour, Slugger White and/or other people from within the rules staff. I would hope that a number of players were involved, but I don't know who. But I have no illusions that every tour player would have been kept informed, or would even care to be informed, or would remember anything he was told about the rules and the changes. If a player isn't aware of the changes, or feel that he wasn't given the chance to influence the process, I blame the individual player, not the USGA, not Monahan, not the PAC, not Slugger, but each individual player.




    Your last sentence is totally spot on. At some point, personal responsibility on the part of the players has to be expected if not required.
  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭

    nsxguy wrote:

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?




    Or they tried to smooth things over.



    But I was really referring to something you said about the second tweet, calling it a lie, too. Maybe I misunderstood you.




    I believe his comment about the "admission" was "It's not a lie. It's a calculated statement to squash the uprising."



    But I could be wrong. I find my buddy bh hard to follow sometimes. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />




    I believe ClintDagger said the first tweet was close to the truth, which would necessarily make the second tweet a lie. I thought BH was pointing that out, but could be wrong.


    And that’s just my humble opinion. I’m not saying I’d stake my life on it. My justification for thinking this is that I envision whoever tweeted to JT “we need to talk” was probably a “boots on the ground” part of the organization that knows what the back & forth has been with JT and isn’t so politically minded as to bite his or her tongue. I think after that tweet the USGA went into damage control and just fell on the grenade.
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  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    davep043 wrote:



    I get that too Dave. That's why I feel like it's a carefully worded half truth. They aren't oblivious but they clearly aren't fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn't Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn't he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It's just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren't included and the USga says the tour was isn't that a big big issue of people not understanding who's imput is valuable ?


    I don't think we've been told who represented the PGA Tour through the rulesmaking process. Remember that it happened over a 7 year period, lots of players cycled in and out of the tour, and the Players Advisory Council. I would hope it would have included some of the real experts with the tour, Slugger White and/or other people from within the rules staff. I would hope that a number of players were involved, but I don't know who. But I have no illusions that every tour player would have been kept informed, or would even care to be informed, or would remember anything he was told about the rules and the changes. If a player isn't aware of the changes, or feel that he wasn't given the chance to influence the process, I blame the individual player, not the USGA, not Monahan, not the PAC, not Slugger, but each individual player.




    ...and if the Tour was as involved in the process as Commissioner Monaghan stated, is it the job of the USGA, or the PGA Tour to make sure the its players understand the changes that affect their livelihood?
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,594 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 3:50pm #481
    davep043 wrote:



    I get that too Dave. That's why I feel like it's a carefully worded half truth. They aren't oblivious but they clearly aren't fluent in the new rules wording either. Not like a person who helped construct them would be. They wouldnt catch everything. Sure. But if they truly were involved why does the players association seem to be so blind ? Isn't Spieth the players pac chairman ? And isn't he also best pals with JT ? How could spieth be helping to write rules and yet never conversate with jt about them ? It's just odd.



    Sure. I get that 16 players from the pac may not be the ones at meetings every time. But surely they were included multiple times if the tour really did have imput that was used in the rules construction ?



    If they weren't included and the USga says the tour was isn't that a big big issue of people not understanding who's imput is valuable ?


    I don't think we've been told who represented the PGA Tour through the rulesmaking process. Remember that it happened over a 7 year period, lots of players cycled in and out of the tour, and the Players Advisory Council. I would hope it would have included some of the real experts with the tour, Slugger White and/or other people from within the rules staff. I would hope that a number of players were involved, but I don't know who. But I have no illusions that every tour player would have been kept informed, or would even care to be informed, or would remember anything he was told about the rules and the changes. If a player isn't aware of the changes, or feel that he wasn't given the chance to influence the process, I blame the individual player, not the USGA, not Monahan, not the PAC, not Slugger, but each individual player.




    Sure. I would assume the experts from the tour being in would be a given.



    7 years ? Half the players on tour may not have been there 7 years ago. At least a good number weren’t.

    I would think that the conversation couldn’t have started with much meaning until after the proposed changes were published ( 2017?). The issue with that even is that they changed so much from then to what rolled out. With no real defined set until it was announced what was finalized. By then it’s too late yes ?



    So if no players are involved before then , how does it fall back to personal responsibility? Gripping is the only recourse after the fact. Just like the rest of us. We answered a few questions on a survey and emailed in some opinions. But who knows what bin that was tossed in ? Maybe it was used ? But I’d love to have seen them publish the findings if so. Less mystery is always better for image.



    So if it’s personal responsibility then you’re basically saying jt and other players should have gripped before the rules were final ? On the surface I agree. But only if they had info the public didn’t , we surely didn’t have practical use info on this cAddie rule etc before hand.



    On to Kevs point. More I think on it the more I think that If the players were indeed not included in this 7 year long process , it falls on the tour officials really . You want to blame the players. But really what are they supposed to do. Short of raise **** ( which they are vilified for ) what? The tour should be the liaison that facilitates their participation. Id bet anything that didn’t happen. Not like it should have. Otherwise they would know more Than they do just from the process. It wouldn’t have started jan1 2019.
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