USGA PR team to Justin Thomas: "We need to talk"

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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers Posts: 12,453 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses. But the application everyone sees is to a select few hotshots on TV weekends

    I've said it before. Not sure why the tour can have their own interpretation of rules that is wider ... the Masters committee comes to mind

    The tour did this for years with rules for embedded ball everywhere on the course etc etc
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  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭✭


    nsxguy wrote:

    HitEmTrue wrote:



    Oh they lied about the meetings canceled. They admitted to that. lol. That not really debatable is it ?




    Or they tried to smooth things over.



    But I was really referring to something you said about the second tweet, calling it a lie, too. Maybe I misunderstood you.




    I believe his comment about the "admission" was "It's not a lie. It's a calculated statement to squash the uprising."



    But I could be wrong. I find my buddy bh hard to follow sometimes. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />




    I believe ClintDagger said the first tweet was close to the truth, which would necessarily make the second tweet a lie. I thought BH was pointing that out, but could be wrong.


    And that's just my humble opinion. I'm not saying I'd stake my life on it. My justification for thinking this is that I envision whoever tweeted to JT "we need to talk" was probably a "boots on the ground" part of the organization that knows what the back & forth has been with JT and isn't so politically minded as to bite his or her tongue. I think after that tweet the USGA went into damage control and just fell on the grenade.


    So, in your opinion, the second tweet was the untruthful one?
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  • ClambakeClambake Members Posts: 675 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 4:41pm #484
    I've always been proud that our chosen obsession sport has stood for honor and integrity, and that players in this game step up to their responsibility when they break a rule, unlike about any other sport you can think of (picture the endless flopping in soccer, or the "hey I never touched him" attitude in basketball or football). While much of society's mores and norms are degrading by the day, golf has stood as a paragon of personal responsibility in athletics.



    But I very sorry to see that this whole cluster f___ surrounding the rules changes seems to be dragging the sport down, following the loss of civility and intelligent debate that is all too prevalent anymore. While social media has many good aspects, what we are seeing here (like in politics) is how it can short circuit all decency. Combined with the USGA's fumbling and the Tour players' whiny entitlement, this is an embarrassment for our sport.



    I am no fan of the USGA, and feel that they have fumbled way to many key things in their role as a keeper of the game. For a group that touts its efforts in agronomy as one of its achievements, why is it that year after year the main story from the US Open is often turf issues? For a group that touts it is there to grow the game, why aren't they truly addressing some of the key things that drive people away, like slow play, while taking away some of the things that the average player found helpful, like long putters? Mike Davis claims the latest rule changes were 7 years in the making, and somehow in all that time they didn't ask themselves (and I suppose the R&A needs to be painted with the same brush here) some of the basic questions. They can't say definitively one way or another if flagstick in is beneficial or not - they appear to not have actually studied that with any scientific method. They initially came out and said drop from any height, and then immediately changed their tune to the knee high position. Seven years and they never thought to ask themselves if dropping an inch above the ground might not be right? Throw in their childish retorts to Justin Thomas' childish tweets and it really seems they are an organization unsuited for the role they claim.



    On another side we have the Tour players, complaining that the rule changes are befuddled and confusing to them. It seems the only thing that possible could be confusing is the caddie lining the player up, but even that is pretty clear. The enforcement of that rule has been a bit draconian, but it was clear that the caddie is not to be on the line. Dropping the ball from knee height is crystal clear, yet we have numerous Tour players mocking that simple act. I love Fowler, but his pantomime the other day was not becoming to a professional. When the rules changed from behind the shoulder drop to the arms length/shoulder height drop, we didn't see Tour pros mocking the rule and complaining about how difficult it was.



    To me, the pros complaining about the rules at this point is only showing they are ridiculously entitled and immature, and reveals a lack of intellect. Like many on WRX, for my chosen profession I had to study probably well over a hundred textbooks, most involving very complex topics. Even if one didn't go through college for their profession, I'm sure in their workplace there are many manuals and documents that require study and understanding. To be a PGA Tour Pro, there is basically one and only one book that you should know - the Rules of Golf. It isn't long, and it isn't that complicated. You're given the opportunity to make a living that most of us dream of and it only requires you be able to study one book. And yet abdicate that responsibility and now end up calling a rules official for every simple ruling. Speed up the pace? **** no, they're dragging it down to glacier speed.



    None of this should be happening. This game is too great and has too much wonderful history to deserve these petty discussions and arguments. The USGA is hardly deserving of unquestioned respect and support, and needs a major shift in how they approach their role. And those very few who are fortunate enough to play on the game's highest stages need to shut up and act like adults. We seem to have lost adult supervision on all sides of the issues.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,548 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Clambake wrote:


    I've always been proud that our chosen obsession sport has stood for honor and integrity, and that players in this game step up to their responsibility when they break a rule, unlike about any other sport you can think of (picture the endless flopping in soccer, or the "hey I never touched him" attitude in basketball or football). While much of society's mores and norms are degrading by the day, golf has stood as a paragon of personal responsibility in athletics.



    But I very sorry to see that this whole cluster f___ surrounding the rules changes seems to be dragging the sport down, following the loss of civility and intelligent debate that is all too prevalent anymore. While social media has many good aspects, what we are seeing here (like in politics) is how it can short circuit all decency. Combined with the USGA's fumbling and the Tour players' whiny entitlement, this is an embarrassment for our sport.



    I am no fan of the USGA, and feel that they have fumbled way to many key things in their role as a keeper of the game. For a group that touts its efforts in agronomy as one of its achievements, why is it that year after year the main story from the US Open is often turf issues? For a group that touts it is there to grow the game, why aren't they truly addressing some of the key things that drive people away, like slow play, while taking away some of the things that the average player found helpful, like long putters? Mike Davis claims the latest rule changes were 7 years in the making, and somehow in all that time they didn't ask themselves (and I suppose the R&A needs to be painted with the same brush here) some of the basic questions. They can't say definitively one way or another if flagstick in is beneficial or not - they appear to not have actually studied that with any scientific method. They initially came out and said drop from any height, and then immediately changed their tune to the knee high position. Seven years and they never thought to ask themselves if dropping an inch above the ground might not be right? Throw in their childish retorts to Justin Thomas' childish tweets and it really seems they are an organization unsuited for the role they claim.



    On another side we have the Tour players, complaining that the rule changes are befuddled and confusing to them. It seems the only thing that possible could be confusing is the caddie lining the player up, but even that is pretty clear. The enforcement of that rule has been a bit draconian, but it was clear that the caddie is not to be on the line. Dropping the ball from knee height is crystal clear, yet we have numerous Tour players mocking that simple act. I love Fowler, but his pantomime the other day was not becoming to a professional. When the rules changed from behind the shoulder drop to the arms length/shoulder height drop, we didn't see Tour pros mocking the rule and complaining about how difficult it was.



    To me, the pros complaining about the rules at this point is only showing they are ridiculously entitled and immature, and reveals a lack of intellect. Like many on WRX, for my chosen profession I had to study probably well over a hundred textbooks, most involving very complex topics. Even if one didn't go through college for their profession, I'm sure in their workplace there are many manuals and documents that require study and understanding. To be a PGA Tour Pro, there is basically one and only one book that you should know - the Rules of Golf. It isn't long, and it isn't that complicated. You're given the opportunity to make a living that most of us dream of and it only requires you be able to study one book. And yet abdicate that responsibility and now end up calling a rules official for every simple ruling. Speed up the pace? **** no, they're dragging it down to glacier speed.



    None of this should be happening. This game is too great and has too much wonderful history to deserve these petty discussions and arguments. The USGA is hardly deserving of unquestioned respect and support, and needs a major shift in how they approach their role. And those very few who are fortunate enough to play on the game's highest stages need to shut up and act like adults. We seem to have lost adult supervision on all sides of the issues.




    Yes sir !



    I actually agree with this believe it or not , the whole lot. I just can’t stomach only one side being blamed. The players are incredibly entitled. And ignorant. But I also lay a lot of that at the usgas feet. The keepers of the game are all over the map .





    Serious question.(s). Why the constant need to change the rules of the game ? Is it to try to stay ahead of tv ? Or to maximize profit ? That question is also tied to equipment limits and changes. At some point $ became more important than the game itself. I don’t know when that was? But it started dying then. Maybe it started dying the first time men fought on course over a ruling ( fist fights used to be common )?



    All just personal queries. Not really indictments of anyone. I get that “ change is inevitable “ yadda yadda to some degree ....But it is controllable , no?



    I just don’t feel like the game got better jan1. Maybe it did and we don’t see it yet (I hope ). But soon we have a new handicap system. Lord only knows what will happen then. Maybe that’s better ? Ugh. Something else to look forward to.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    A voice of reason. Well said Clambake.
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  • NPVWhizNPVWhiz Members Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭✭✭✭


    A voice of reason. Well said Clambake.




    Indeed. You never want to do a scientific study to answer a question where you don’t really want a scientific answer.



    When you want a report that confirms and supports what you’ve already decided you want to do, well....that’s what management consultants are for.
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  • widow-makerwidow-maker Members Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    There were a lot of good changes implemented in the new rules. Changes that the players seem to agree with. It appears that there are 2 that the players don't like.... the drop rule, and the caddy alignment rule.



    So... the proper thing to do is work with the USGA to get those two rules fixed, if possible. In the meantime, it's pretty easy to comply with the rules as they are currently written. Drop from knee height(as silly as it is), and don't let your caddie stand behind you as you set up(which is pretty darn simple). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be easy to comply. The players have made their point. Time to get off it and let the people they hired to run the tour deal with it.
  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Well put Clambake, totally agree.



    The USGA can address their issues and get it right in short order. It does not mean they will, but the potential is certainly there. Unfortunately, there is not an easy remedy for tour players collectively being about as smart as a box of rocks other than they should probably share a lot less opinions. We are stuck with the dummies.



    I mean really...what are we talking about again? Take a drop from your knee and get the caddie out of the way. Wow, that is so hard. Counting their ridiculous earnings is a lot more difficult. All the "whining" players are achieving is my possibly liking the USGA, and that's not easy to do!
  • North TexasNorth Texas Members Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Here are some comments from Rory's press conference today at the Arnold Palmer.



    “I think that the governing bodies are a very easy target right now in the game of golf and it’s very easy for people to jump on the bandwagon and sort of criticize,” McIlroy said at a pre-tournament press conference at the Arnold Palmer Invitational on Wednesday. “But all these entities in golf, they’re not trying to do anything bad for the game, they’re trying to help the game in some way. So I think we all have to give them a bit of leeway here and say, yes, they probably made some mistakes, but we all do. And I’m sure they will get it right eventually.”
  • North TexasNorth Texas Members Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    First part of this article is about college teams adapting to new rules. Their attitude and approach is in stark contrast to PGA players.



    https://www.golfchannel.com/news/college-notebook-rules-have-changed-oklahoma-state-still-rules
  • Ashley SchaefferAshley Schaeffer Members Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭✭✭


    First part of this article is about college teams adapting to new rules. Their attitude and approach is in stark contrast to PGA players.



    https://www.golfchan...ate-still-rules




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  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭


    First part of this article is about college teams adapting to new rules. Their attitude and approach is in stark contrast to PGA players.



    https://www.golfchannel.com/news/college-notebook-rules-have-changed-oklahoma-state-still-rules


    I think some Tour pros look at these new rules as a concerted effort to “speed up” the game and think the USGA is either blaming them for slow play in the game and / or are messing with their routines which they’ve spent countless hours perfecting. I’m just in my 30s and the change in how many pros view the rules is a stark contrast to when I was a junior. I see pros all the time taking advantage of the rules to bail them out instead of following them with good faith. It’s prevalent now when it used to be very rare. There’s almost a “if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying” mentality that you see in other sports that is slowly entering the game of golf.
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  • Swisstrader98Swisstrader98 Members Posts: 3,555 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    davep043 wrote:



    I'd say plenty of correspondence has/had had occurred. I'm sure in a one sided manner. And maybe that's how it has to be ? But I do see why JT wouldn't want to engage in any further one sided talks during a work week. Bad for the mindset. But I'm not sure how we're still leaping to a canceled anything. The USga asking for a conference call and JT saying not now isn't canceling. It's postponing . Semantics ? Maybe. But words mattter when calling someone out.



    USga would have been best served by releasing this " we're contacting JT now to discuss his grievances in private , we're aware of his concerns and value his imput ". That give at least the appearance of giving a **** and is technically " communication ". Easy peasy . Hands clean. Their ego got in the way of that.



    As for the pga having a seat at the table. ? Lol. I'm sure they did. As spectators , much like Mikes moments of enlightenment on the range at pebble ... I'd pay $ for the minutes of those meetings. It would bust this wide open I'm sure.


    Words matter when you've chosen to cut off communication, then say that THEY need to "start communicating". It works both ways, and I still believe that the real truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm not claiming that the USGA handled it well, but perhaps using Twitter was a last resort to get a hold of someone who has said "don't call me this week".



    And now you're saying Monahan's statements, Slumbers's statement, and Thomas Bjorn's, are lies? I know you always believe the worst about the USGA, but you seem to respect the others. I'll quote it again, you're saying this is a lie.
    [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]“During this process, we put forward a lengthy list of recommendations to improve the rules in many ways, including the removal of numerous penalties, and virtually all our suggestions were incorporated,” Monahan wrote[/background]





    Sorry Dave, but I disagree here. Using Monahan’s statement about the rules doesn’t excuse the USGA blantanly fabricating facts.



    This has now moved onto another level from the initial rules issues, which Monohan’s statement was in regard to, to a very real question of the USGA’s credibility, and even integrity. When you come out and admit you lied, your reputation takes a massive hit. For the life of me I can’t imagine why they made that statement, leave it a “he said, she said” situation and let it die, which it will. Probably sooner than later.



    Damon Hack asked a very pertinent question this morning, “who’se running the ship over there”. How does an entity of this position let something like this happen




    Agreed.



    At one stage you could chalk it up to “spoiled PGA pro and arrogant USGA face off on new rules”. Then the USGA as what is supposed to be a professional organization that’s supposed to be all about integrity pivots and does the exact wrong thing with lying on their social media site.



    Unforgivable
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,548 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 6, 2019 8:38pm #495



    First part of this article is about college teams adapting to new rules. Their attitude and approach is in stark contrast to PGA players.



    https://www.golfchannel.com/news/college-notebook-rules-have-changed-oklahoma-state-still-rules


    I think some Tour pros look at these new rules as a concerted effort to “speed up” the game and think the USGA is either blaming them for slow play in the game and / or are messing with their routines which they’ve spent countless hours perfecting. I’m just in my 30s and the change in how many pros view the rules is a stark contrast to when I was a junior. I see pros all the time taking advantage of the rules to bail them out instead of following them with good faith. It’s prevalent now when it used to be very rare. There’s almost a “if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying” mentality that you see in other sports that is slowly entering the game of golf.




    Have to say. It’s been there since at least the 70s. Seve and Gary Player perfected the art of “ I’m not sure if I’m going to hit 3 wood or an iron from the rough “ where you sole a 3 wood behind the ball 12 times or so to trample down the grass behind the ball only to change your mind and decide to either layup or hit a long iron instead . Same with asking for relief in every place imaginable. Seve famously petitioned the pga to add a couple bunkers to the island green on 17 at sawgrass so he had somewhere to “bail out to “ .... it’s not a new thing. None of which really bothers me.
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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 20,083 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Not sure I really understand the players' reactions to all this. In golf, players are characterized as being "professionals." Traditionally, they have earned that distinction by the presumption that they understand the craft of what they do (in addition to the technique and execution), and that means being responsible for knowing the rules of the game as presently stated. In my work, laws and procedures change all the time, and not always for the better. It's part of the field I am in. I politely offer feedback to lawmakers and sometimes they act on it and sometimes they don't. Regardless, part of my "craft" is to stay up to date on what is going on, good and bad, because if I don't, my institution gets fined or risks losing funding. I don't get to turn around to my State government or agencies and say "Sorry, I was more focused on the day to day than the big picture." In my opinion, it isn't enough to focus solely on the golf swing and ignore responsibilities in other areas. There are a lot of players who know certain rules enough to get a better drop or get out of trouble. It isn't so much a stretch to think they can handle a change here or there.



    The USGA have not had a very good record as of late, but I don't think it has anything to do with the rules piece in terms of making changes. It is what they are here for. This is only golf, it isn't particularly taxing on the brain. What I think is the problem is that, when you are a rule maker, you never waffle on enforcing expectations or else every precocious and entitled young adult out there starts to challenge everything you do. You hire people who are going to observe common sense, who are professional and communicate well, and who aren't afraid to make decisions and stand by them. You kick the rest to the curb. You don't get into media squabbles with the petulant, you just wait for the next social drama to come around and they will forget about what is currently bothering them. If you engage with complainers (as opposed to those who want to work positively in a constructive dialogue), you open the door to them influencing your decisions. That is leadership 101, and you just don't do it.
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  • jli2636jli2636 Members Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭✭✭✭



    First part of this article is about college teams adapting to new rules. Their attitude and approach is in stark contrast to PGA players.



    https://www.golfchannel.com/news/college-notebook-rules-have-changed-oklahoma-state-still-rules


    I think some Tour pros look at these new rules as a concerted effort to “speed up” the game and think the USGA is either blaming them for slow play in the game and / or are messing with their routines which they’ve spent countless hours perfecting.




    I would like to see the time of rounds with the new rules vs the old ones because my guess is it’s actually slower with the flagstick in/out business.



    At the end of the day the players need to suck it up and play by the rules. When new tax laws come out accountants don’t get to complain to the government to have them changed. They have to learn them and abide by them. These guys are professionals and need to start acting like it. They were all so flippant about it with I think it was DJ saying in Hawaii that he would “take a glance” at the new rules and he hadn’t looked at them at all before teeing it up in the first event of the year. These rules were not sprung overnight in the players. Like the USGA tweet said this has been a process ongoing for YEARS. Why weren’t more players vocal about it before? They obviously don’t mind the flagstick rule since that benefits them, but put a rule in that makes things more difficult for them and everyone loses their minds. It seems to me that the only ones truly complaining are PGA Tour pros. I haven’t heard(not to say it’s not out there, I just haven’t seen it) anything from the LPGA, Euro tour, Web tour, or even the champions tour. You are a professional, act like it.
  • JohnnyCashForeverJohnnyCashForever From this day on, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish. PAMembers Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 6:02am #498


    Not sure I really understand the players' reactions to all this. In golf, players are characterized as being "professionals." Traditionally, they have earned that distinction by the presumption that they understand the craft of what they do (in addition to the technique and execution), and that means being responsible for knowing the rules of the game as presently stated. In my work, laws and procedures change all the time, and not always for the better. It's part of the field I am in. I politely offer feedback to lawmakers and sometimes they act on it and sometimes they don't. Regardless, part of my "craft" is to stay up to date on what is going on, good and bad, because if I don't, my institution gets fined or risks losing funding. I don't get to turn around to my State government or agencies and say "Sorry, I was more focused on the day to day than the big picture." In my opinion, it isn't enough to focus solely on the golf swing and ignore responsibilities in other areas. There are a lot of players who know certain rules enough to get a better drop or get out of trouble. It isn't so much a stretch to think they can handle a change here or there.






    You can be up-to-date on your "craft" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and still have a legitimate disagreement on the interpretation of a rule/law. Otherwise, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court.
  • JohnnyCashForeverJohnnyCashForever From this day on, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish. PAMembers Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    cardoustie wrote:


    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses.




    If the rules were truly written for the masses, then...



    1. there would be no rules concerning caddies.

    2. there would be suggestions on cart etiquette, eating-at-the-turn etiquette, music etiquette, etc.

    2. the lost ball rule would take into consideration a crowded course on Saturday.

    3. the drop rule would leave unspecified what is the proper drop height.

    4. there would be no rule whatsoever about leaving the pin in or out.

    5. all hazards would have the same rule regarding penalties and permitted drop areas. That is, under the JCFGA* rule "drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where the ball crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty"



    The rules as-written cover aspects of the game that the masses don't care about or won't ever encounter, while at the same time they are too tedious for most golfers to care to learn beyond a cursory glance (even at the highest level). An amazing feat. Thank you USGA!











    * JohnnyCashForever Golf Association. Memberships available. No free hat.
  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭



    Not sure I really understand the players' reactions to all this. In golf, players are characterized as being "professionals." Traditionally, they have earned that distinction by the presumption that they understand the craft of what they do (in addition to the technique and execution), and that means being responsible for knowing the rules of the game as presently stated. In my work, laws and procedures change all the time, and not always for the better. It's part of the field I am in. I politely offer feedback to lawmakers and sometimes they act on it and sometimes they don't. Regardless, part of my "craft" is to stay up to date on what is going on, good and bad, because if I don't, my institution gets fined or risks losing funding. I don't get to turn around to my State government or agencies and say "Sorry, I was more focused on the day to day than the big picture." In my opinion, it isn't enough to focus solely on the golf swing and ignore responsibilities in other areas. There are a lot of players who know certain rules enough to get a better drop or get out of trouble. It isn't so much a stretch to think they can handle a change here or there.






    You can be up-to-date on your "craft" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and still have a legitimate disagreement on the interpretation of a rule/law. Otherwise, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court.


    You don’t know what being up to date on a craft means?
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    There were a lot of good changes implemented in the new rules. Changes that the players seem to agree with. It appears that there are 2 that the players don't like.... the drop rule, and the caddy alignment rule.



    So... the proper thing to do is work with the USGA to get those two rules fixed, if possible. In the meantime, it's pretty easy to comply with the rules as they are currently written. Drop from knee height(as silly as it is), and don't let your caddie stand behind you as you set up(which is pretty darn simple). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be easy to comply. The players have made their point. Time to get off it and let the people they hired to run the tour deal with it.


    From everything I've seen, the players love all of the rules that have eliminated the potential for them to be penalized. Move a ball accidentally and replace with no penalty, they love it. Repair ANY damage on the green, love it. But when you make a change that could result in a penalty, for doing things the "old" way, they hate it. And just because they hate the changes doesn't make the changes wrong. The Ruling Bodies DID "fix" the caddie alignment wording, pretty quickly. Now its all on the players. And again, they're going nuts about two rules that have resulted in 3 penalties, 2 for alignment, one for a bad drop. Three. Of how many holes of golf, 50,000, 100,000? It shouldn't be this big a deal.
  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:



    There were a lot of good changes implemented in the new rules. Changes that the players seem to agree with. It appears that there are 2 that the players don't like.... the drop rule, and the caddy alignment rule.



    So... the proper thing to do is work with the USGA to get those two rules fixed, if possible. In the meantime, it's pretty easy to comply with the rules as they are currently written. Drop from knee height(as silly as it is), and don't let your caddie stand behind you as you set up(which is pretty darn simple). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be easy to comply. The players have made their point. Time to get off it and let the people they hired to run the tour deal with it.


    From everything I've seen, the players love all of the rules that have eliminated the potential for them to be penalized. Move a ball accidentally and replace with no penalty, they love it. Repair ANY damage on the green, love it. But when you make a change that could result in a penalty, for doing things the "old" way, they hate it. And just because they hate the changes doesn't make the changes wrong. The Ruling Bodies DID "fix" the caddie alignment wording, pretty quickly. Now its all on the players. And again, they're going nuts about two rules that have resulted in 3 penalties, 2 for alignment, one for a bad drop. Three. Of how many holes of golf, 50,000, 100,000? It shouldn't be this big a deal.


    Somebody above mentioned the Supreme Court, well there’s no SCOTUS for arbitrating the rules of golf. The USGA did act quickly in clarifying the alignment rule. But I would ask for the guys that have been penalized due to that rule, if they didn’t understand the rule or weren’t sure how to interpret it, did they inquire with the USGA before the rule went into effect? If they did and the USGA blew them off then they have a case for pleading ignorance. If not, then the blame largely if not entirely has to fall on them.
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  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jli2636 wrote:




    First part of this article is about college teams adapting to new rules. Their attitude and approach is in stark contrast to PGA players.



    https://www.golfchannel.com/news/college-notebook-rules-have-changed-oklahoma-state-still-rules


    I think some Tour pros look at these new rules as a concerted effort to “speed up” the game and think the USGA is either blaming them for slow play in the game and / or are messing with their routines which they’ve spent countless hours perfecting.




    I would like to see the time of rounds with the new rules vs the old ones because my guess is it’s actually slower with the flagstick in/out business.



    At the end of the day the players need to suck it up and play by the rules. When new tax laws come out accountants don’t get to complain to the government to have them changed. They have to learn them and abide by them. These guys are professionals and need to start acting like it. They were all so flippant about it with I think it was DJ saying in Hawaii that he would “take a glance” at the new rules and he hadn’t looked at them at all before teeing it up in the first event of the year. These rules were not sprung overnight in the players. Like the USGA tweet said this has been a process ongoing for YEARS. Why weren’t more players vocal about it before? They obviously don’t mind the flagstick rule since that benefits them, but put a rule in that makes things more difficult for them and everyone loses their minds. It seems to me that the only ones truly complaining are PGA Tour pros. I haven’t heard(not to say it’s not out there, I just haven’t seen it) anything from the LPGA, Euro tour, Web tour, or even the champions tour. You are a professional, act like it.


    I don’t think the rounds have sped up any but that’s just my feel from watching on tv.
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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 20,083 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 8:27am #504



    Not sure I really understand the players' reactions to all this. In golf, players are characterized as being "professionals." Traditionally, they have earned that distinction by the presumption that they understand the craft of what they do (in addition to the technique and execution), and that means being responsible for knowing the rules of the game as presently stated. In my work, laws and procedures change all the time, and not always for the better. It's part of the field I am in. I politely offer feedback to lawmakers and sometimes they act on it and sometimes they don't. Regardless, part of my "craft" is to stay up to date on what is going on, good and bad, because if I don't, my institution gets fined or risks losing funding. I don't get to turn around to my State government or agencies and say "Sorry, I was more focused on the day to day than the big picture." In my opinion, it isn't enough to focus solely on the golf swing and ignore responsibilities in other areas. There are a lot of players who know certain rules enough to get a better drop or get out of trouble. It isn't so much a stretch to think they can handle a change here or there.






    You can be up-to-date on your "craft" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and still have a legitimate disagreement on the interpretation of a rule/law. Otherwise, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court.




    The point being, I take it up in a private (and polite) conversation with the legislating body. I don't go online or to social media and complain. Despite what current culture would tell us, that tried and true approach of sitting down and talking about problems does still actually work. If these guys are going to call themselves "professionals" it means more than just somebody who can swing the club at a high level. It means displaying the proper disposition. Not crying to the media when you don't get your way - regardless of whether you were right or wrong. If every rule is subject to the equivalent of a town hall meeting, the rules themselves aren't worth a ****.



    edit: And if you don't understand what craft is, you obviously need to listen a little deeper to your namesake. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
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  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭




    Not sure I really understand the players' reactions to all this. In golf, players are characterized as being "professionals." Traditionally, they have earned that distinction by the presumption that they understand the craft of what they do (in addition to the technique and execution), and that means being responsible for knowing the rules of the game as presently stated. In my work, laws and procedures change all the time, and not always for the better. It's part of the field I am in. I politely offer feedback to lawmakers and sometimes they act on it and sometimes they don't. Regardless, part of my "craft" is to stay up to date on what is going on, good and bad, because if I don't, my institution gets fined or risks losing funding. I don't get to turn around to my State government or agencies and say "Sorry, I was more focused on the day to day than the big picture." In my opinion, it isn't enough to focus solely on the golf swing and ignore responsibilities in other areas. There are a lot of players who know certain rules enough to get a better drop or get out of trouble. It isn't so much a stretch to think they can handle a change here or there.






    You can be up-to-date on your "craft" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and still have a legitimate disagreement on the interpretation of a rule/law. Otherwise, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court.




    The point being, I take it up in a private (and polite) conversation with the legislating body. I don't go online or to social media and complain. Despite what current culture would tell us, that tried and true approach of sitting down and talking about problems does still actually work. If these guys are going to call themselves "professionals" it means more than just somebody who can swing the club at a high level. It means displaying the proper disposition. Not crying to the media when you don't get your way - regardless of whether you were right or wrong. If every rule is subject to the equivalent of a town hall meeting, the rules themselves aren't worth a ****.


    And to be fair, out of the hundreds of pro golfers out there competing on the PGA, Euro, LPGA, CT, etcetera; 90% of them or more probably were professional and studied these rules and knew how not to run afoul of them. I think there’s a vocal, entitled, spoiled minority out there that are crying about all of this and grandstanding.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    cardoustie wrote:


    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses.




    If the rules were truly written for the masses, then...



    1. there would be no rules concerning caddies.

    Caddies have been a part of the game forever, and will continue to be. Also, most restrictions on caddies also apply to your partner, and most of us play partner games.

    2. there would be suggestions on cart etiquette, eating-at-the-turn etiquette, music etiquette, etc.

    There are. Don't unduly delay others, don't bother others with your music.

    2. the lost ball rule would take into consideration a crowded course on Saturday.

    It does, hit a provisional.

    3. the drop rule would leave unspecified what is the proper drop height.

    Why is that better, taking into account the reasons the Ruling Bodies have given for the reduced height?

    4. there would be no rule whatsoever about leaving the pin in or out.

    Exactly as it is now.

    5. all hazards would have the same rule regarding penalties and permitted drop areas. That is, under the JCFGA* rule "drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where the ball crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty"

    More severe than the current rule, two strokes?



    The rules as-written cover aspects of the game that the masses don't care about or won't ever encounter, while at the same time they are too tedious for most golfers to care to learn beyond a cursory glance (even at the highest level). An amazing feat. Thank you USGA!



    * JohnnyCashForever Golf Association. Memberships available. No free hat.




    The rules are intended to apply to ALL players, in all climates and geographic areas, in just about all circumstances imaginable. If you don't use a caddie, ignore those rules, its easy. Almost everything else you want is already in place. The rest is highly suspect, at least to me.
  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 20,083 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭





    Not sure I really understand the players' reactions to all this. In golf, players are characterized as being "professionals." Traditionally, they have earned that distinction by the presumption that they understand the craft of what they do (in addition to the technique and execution), and that means being responsible for knowing the rules of the game as presently stated. In my work, laws and procedures change all the time, and not always for the better. It's part of the field I am in. I politely offer feedback to lawmakers and sometimes they act on it and sometimes they don't. Regardless, part of my "craft" is to stay up to date on what is going on, good and bad, because if I don't, my institution gets fined or risks losing funding. I don't get to turn around to my State government or agencies and say "Sorry, I was more focused on the day to day than the big picture." In my opinion, it isn't enough to focus solely on the golf swing and ignore responsibilities in other areas. There are a lot of players who know certain rules enough to get a better drop or get out of trouble. It isn't so much a stretch to think they can handle a change here or there.






    You can be up-to-date on your "craft" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and still have a legitimate disagreement on the interpretation of a rule/law. Otherwise, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court.




    The point being, I take it up in a private (and polite) conversation with the legislating body. I don't go online or to social media and complain. Despite what current culture would tell us, that tried and true approach of sitting down and talking about problems does still actually work. If these guys are going to call themselves "professionals" it means more than just somebody who can swing the club at a high level. It means displaying the proper disposition. Not crying to the media when you don't get your way - regardless of whether you were right or wrong. If every rule is subject to the equivalent of a town hall meeting, the rules themselves aren't worth a ****.


    And to be fair, out of the hundreds of pro golfers out there competing on the PGA, Euro, LPGA, CT, etcetera; 90% of them or more probably were professional and studied these rules and knew how not to run afoul of them. I think there's a vocal, entitled, spoiled minority out there that are crying about all of this and grandstanding.




    Absolutely agree. Only a very few are complaining, as you said.
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  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:


    cardoustie wrote:


    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses.




    If the rules were truly written for the masses, then...



    1. there would be no rules concerning caddies.

    Caddies have been a part of the game forever, and will continue to be. Also, most restrictions on caddies also apply to your partner, and most of us play partner games.

    2. there would be suggestions on cart etiquette, eating-at-the-turn etiquette, music etiquette, etc.

    There are. Don't unduly delay others, don't bother others with your music.

    2. the lost ball rule would take into consideration a crowded course on Saturday.

    It does, hit a provisional.

    3. the drop rule would leave unspecified what is the proper drop height.

    Why is that better, taking into account the reasons the Ruling Bodies have given for the reduced height?

    4. there would be no rule whatsoever about leaving the pin in or out.

    Exactly as it is now.

    5. all hazards would have the same rule regarding penalties and permitted drop areas. That is, under the JCFGA* rule "drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where the ball crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty"

    More severe than the current rule, two strokes?



    The rules as-written cover aspects of the game that the masses don't care about or won't ever encounter, while at the same time they are too tedious for most golfers to care to learn beyond a cursory glance (even at the highest level). An amazing feat. Thank you USGA!



    * JohnnyCashForever Golf Association. Memberships available. No free hat.




    The rules are intended to apply to ALL players, in all climates and geographic areas, in just about all circumstances imaginable. If you don't use a caddie, ignore those rules, its easy. Almost everything else you want is already in place. The rest is highly suspect, at least to me.


    I agree with what you’re saying, but I do think the impetus behind the new drop rule and the alignment rule was the optics of what was happening on tv. Drop 3 times and place, the caddy standing in the shot then walking away after lining up the player (mostly LPGA obviously). I think those things bugged the USGA and they thought those were the type of things that make golf not as appealing to casual sports fans. In a nutshell, I think there are some new rules where one of if not the biggest objective was to make the game more “watchable” on tv by removing some of the mundane. I think they wanted to ban the green books for the same reason but got cold feet and just restricted them in the end. Maybe I’m wrong on that, but that’s the sense I get.
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,691 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Honest question, to those that are really put-off by JT and Rickie being critical of the rules/acting like children/acting entitiled... Do you guys watch other sports?



    Before I get flamed for this I’m NOT approving or supporting anyone’s actions or behaviors. I’m simply asking a question out of curiosity.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,548 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    davep043 wrote:



    There were a lot of good changes implemented in the new rules. Changes that the players seem to agree with. It appears that there are 2 that the players don't like.... the drop rule, and the caddy alignment rule.



    So... the proper thing to do is work with the USGA to get those two rules fixed, if possible. In the meantime, it's pretty easy to comply with the rules as they are currently written. Drop from knee height(as silly as it is), and don't let your caddie stand behind you as you set up(which is pretty darn simple). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be easy to comply. The players have made their point. Time to get off it and let the people they hired to run the tour deal with it.


    From everything I've seen, the players love all of the rules that have eliminated the potential for them to be penalized. Move a ball accidentally and replace with no penalty, they love it. Repair ANY damage on the green, love it. But when you make a change that could result in a penalty, for doing things the "old" way, they hate it. And just because they hate the changes doesn't make the changes wrong. The Ruling Bodies DID "fix" the caddie alignment wording, pretty quickly. Now its all on the players. And again, they're going nuts about two rules that have resulted in 3 penalties, 2 for alignment, one for a bad drop. Three. Of how many holes of golf, 50,000, 100,000? It shouldn't be this big a deal.


    Somebody above mentioned the Supreme Court, well there’s no SCOTUS for arbitrating the rules of golf. The USGA did act quickly in clarifying the alignment rule. But I would ask for the guys that have been penalized due to that rule, if they didn’t understand the rule or weren’t sure how to interpret it, did they inquire with the USGA before the rule went into effect? If they did and the USGA blew them off then they have a case for pleading ignorance. If not, then the blame largely if not entirely has to fall on them.




    But isn’t that part of the issue ?



    There was no “ call before it’s final “ timeframe. Once the surveys were sent , the next thing we got was a list of “ here’s what we decided “. No real window for change. And on top of that nobody could guess how some of these rules would work in real time. They still aren’t clear on the yellow PA . Is it meant to be lenient as it is now ? Or are they fixing it as they have said to a couple who asked ? We don’t know.



    And that’s ok really. But we can’t say that “ players need to shut up. They had their say “. I just don’t think that’s true. They complain now after they see how It WORKS. That’s the only logical way for it t work. The only fix would have been a mandatory rules workshop that included a couple rounds played under the new rules. With scenarios for each rule acted out. Accurately....and time still to adjust rules before publishing them. .and even that wouldn’t be 100 % fool proof.
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  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 9:27am #511
    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Honest question, to those that are really put-off by JT and Rickie being critical of the rules/acting like children/acting entitiled... Do you guys watch other sports?



    Before I get flamed for this I’m NOT approving or supporting anyone’s actions or behaviors. I’m simply asking a question out of curiosity.


    Yes I watch all major sports. And in my mind golf should be “different” and I think has always claimed to be in its lore. You have Bobby Jones calling a penalty on himself that no one could possibly know about, versus in baseball guys like Ty Cobb or Gaylord Perry whose identities are largely associated with lauded cheating. In basketball you have Rasheed Wallace constantly getting T’d up for crying about calls. In NASCAR you have Richard Petty and Jimmie Johnson/Chad Knaus who tried to cheat but not so much that they get caught. Deflate gate. Flopping in soccer and basketball. I could go on and on.



    I don’t expect nor want Tour players to engage in crying about the rules or engaging in “if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying”. Let that happen in other sports. Golf has a wholly separate identity when it comes to the rules than other major sports and I think that is a good thing personally.
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