USGA PR team to Justin Thomas: "We need to talk"

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 9:30am #512

    davep043 wrote:


    cardoustie wrote:


    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses.




    If the rules were truly written for the masses, then...



    1. there would be no rules concerning caddies.

    Caddies have been a part of the game forever, and will continue to be. Also, most restrictions on caddies also apply to your partner, and most of us play partner games.

    2. there would be suggestions on cart etiquette, eating-at-the-turn etiquette, music etiquette, etc.

    There are. Don't unduly delay others, don't bother others with your music.

    2. the lost ball rule would take into consideration a crowded course on Saturday.

    It does, hit a provisional.

    3. the drop rule would leave unspecified what is the proper drop height.

    Why is that better, taking into account the reasons the Ruling Bodies have given for the reduced height?

    4. there would be no rule whatsoever about leaving the pin in or out.

    Exactly as it is now.

    5. all hazards would have the same rule regarding penalties and permitted drop areas. That is, under the JCFGA* rule "drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where the ball crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty"

    More severe than the current rule, two strokes?



    The rules as-written cover aspects of the game that the masses don't care about or won't ever encounter, while at the same time they are too tedious for most golfers to care to learn beyond a cursory glance (even at the highest level). An amazing feat. Thank you USGA!



    * JohnnyCashForever Golf Association. Memberships available. No free hat.




    The rules are intended to apply to ALL players, in all climates and geographic areas, in just about all circumstances imaginable. If you don't use a caddie, ignore those rules, its easy. Almost everything else you want is already in place. The rest is highly suspect, at least to me.


    I agree with what you’re saying, but I do think the impetus behind the new drop rule and the alignment rule was the optics of what was happening on tv. Drop 3 times and place, the caddy standing in the shot then walking away after lining up the player (mostly LPGA obviously). I think those things bugged the USGA and they thought those were the type of things that make golf not as appealing to casual sports fans. In a nutshell, I think there are some new rules where one of if not the biggest objective was to make the game more “watchable” on tv by removing some of the mundane. I think they wanted to ban the green books for the same reason but got cold feet and just restricted them in the end. Maybe I’m wrong on that, but that’s the sense I get.




    We agree !!!!! Lol



    Tv optics are the reason for those two changes. Period. I’ve said it a million times. The rules , at times , have a hard time standing up to tv cameras . Something that has no real impact “ looks bad” on tv. So they change it. Which then Make a huge impact ( cost a player $60 k recently and Li $100k plus ) but “ it looks good “ on tv.
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,705 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Honest question, to those that are really put-off by JT and Rickie being critical of the rules/acting like children/acting entitiled... Do you guys watch other sports?



    Before I get flamed for this I’m NOT approving or supporting anyone’s actions or behaviors. I’m simply asking a question out of curiosity.


    Yes I watch all major sports. And in my mind golf should be “different” and I think has always claimed to be in its lore. You have Bobby Jones calling a penalty on himself that no one could possibly know about, versus in baseball guys like Ty Cobb or Gaylord Perry whose identities are largely associated with lauded cheating. In basketball you have Rasheed Wallace constantly getting T’d up for crying about calls. In NASCAR you have Richard Petty and Jimmie Johnson/Chad Knaus who tried to cheat but not so much that they get caught. Deflate gate. Flopping in soccer and basketball. I could go on and on.



    I don’t expect nor want Tour players to engage in crying about the rules or engaging in “if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying”. Let that happen in other sports. Golf has a wholly separate identity when it comes to the rules than other major sports and I think that is a good thing personally.




    I hear you. I also love golf because it is “different” and the Jones example is very fitting. But yeah, I was just curious because professional sports and bitching/moaning/cheating/acting like an idiot kind of go hand in hand.



    I odn’t want to see that happen in golf. I used to watch sports, any sports all day every day. I can hardly watch soccer or basketball now.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    davep043 wrote:


    cardoustie wrote:


    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses.




    If the rules were truly written for the masses, then...



    1. there would be no rules concerning caddies.

    Caddies have been a part of the game forever, and will continue to be. Also, most restrictions on caddies also apply to your partner, and most of us play partner games.

    2. there would be suggestions on cart etiquette, eating-at-the-turn etiquette, music etiquette, etc.

    There are. Don't unduly delay others, don't bother others with your music.

    2. the lost ball rule would take into consideration a crowded course on Saturday.

    It does, hit a provisional.

    3. the drop rule would leave unspecified what is the proper drop height.

    Why is that better, taking into account the reasons the Ruling Bodies have given for the reduced height?

    4. there would be no rule whatsoever about leaving the pin in or out.

    Exactly as it is now.

    5. all hazards would have the same rule regarding penalties and permitted drop areas. That is, under the JCFGA* rule "drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where the ball crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty"

    More severe than the current rule, two strokes?



    The rules as-written cover aspects of the game that the masses don't care about or won't ever encounter, while at the same time they are too tedious for most golfers to care to learn beyond a cursory glance (even at the highest level). An amazing feat. Thank you USGA!



    * JohnnyCashForever Golf Association. Memberships available. No free hat.




    The rules are intended to apply to ALL players, in all climates and geographic areas, in just about all circumstances imaginable. If you don't use a caddie, ignore those rules, its easy. Almost everything else you want is already in place. The rest is highly suspect, at least to me.


    I agree with what you're saying, but I do think the impetus behind the new drop rule and the alignment rule was the optics of what was happening on tv. Drop 3 times and place, the caddy standing in the shot then walking away after lining up the player (mostly LPGA obviously). I think those things bugged the USGA and they thought those were the type of things that make golf not as appealing to casual sports fans. In a nutshell, I think there are some new rules where one of if not the biggest objective was to make the game more "watchable" on tv by removing some of the mundane. I think they wanted to ban the green books for the same reason but got cold feet and just restricted them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but that's the sense I get.


    In my view, golf on TV certainly offers a window into how the rules work, and how behaviors have changed around some issues. Twenty years ago, nobody though of asking their caddie to double-check their alignment, so there didn't need to be a rule about it. Maybe it was becoming prevalent for junior golfers, I don't know because there's no video of it. The desire to decrease the distance a ball could be moved from its original location (leading to both the penalty area idea and the new drop procedures) had to be based, at least in part on observations of televised players. Those large distances, up to 5 yards away from an unplayable lie, were available to all of us, but nobody took video of me or you utilizing the rules to our maximum advantage. Detailed greens books weren't available because the technology to map terrain in that detail wasn't available. If the Ruling Bodies decided to evaluate ALL of the rules and their implications, using televised golf was certainly a good way to see in detail how the current rules worked. They certainly couldn't ignore all of that recorded history, could they? But that doesn't mean that televised golf was the ONLY driving force behind any of the rules, even if its certainly the most visible.
  • North TexasNorth Texas Members Posts: 4,399 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Honest question, to those that are really put-off by JT and Rickie being critical of the rules/acting like children/acting entitiled... Do you guys watch other sports?



    Before I get flamed for this I’m NOT approving or supporting anyone’s actions or behaviors. I’m simply asking a question out of curiosity.


    Yes I watch all major sports. And in my mind golf should be “different” and I think has always claimed to be in its lore. You have Bobby Jones calling a penalty on himself that no one could possibly know about, versus in baseball guys like Ty Cobb or Gaylord Perry whose identities are largely associated with lauded cheating. In basketball you have Rasheed Wallace constantly getting T’d up for crying about calls. In NASCAR you have Richard Petty and Jimmie Johnson/Chad Knaus who tried to cheat but not so much that they get caught. Deflate gate. Flopping in soccer and basketball. I could go on and on.



    I don’t expect nor want Tour players to engage in crying about the rules or engaging in “if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying”. Let that happen in other sports. Golf has a wholly separate identity when it comes to the rules than other major sports and I think that is a good thing personally.




    I hear you. I also love golf because it is “different” and the Jones example is very fitting. But yeah, I was just curious because professional sports and bitching/moaning/cheating/acting like an idiot kind of go hand in hand.



    I odn’t want to see that happen in golf. I used to watch sports, any sports all day every day. I can hardly watch soccer or basketball now.




    Used to watch all the major sports, football, baseball, basketball. Don't any more except for college football because I'm a die-hard Texas Longhorn fan. Haven't thought about it but maybe the bitching/moaning/cheating/acting like an idiot had something to with it. Golf is different.
  • sheppy335sheppy335 TMAG Junkie Members Posts: 6,387 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Golf needs to be better then other sports, it is a gentleman's game and ladies game. Not bunch of whiny people.
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  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 27,167 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 10:38am #517
    sheppy335 wrote:


    Golf needs to be better then other sports, it is a gentleman's game and ladies game. Not bunch of whiny people.




    We sure? Given all the "cheating" threads on golfwrx, seems golf has no exclusivity on gentlemanly behavior ; )



    This thread is great. It shares many examples of cheating on both the tournament and hacker level. Here are a couple of highlights>





    http://www.golfwrx.c...ry/page__st__30





    I was walking along with my stepdaughter during a JGA tournament, and on a par 5 her playing partner and competitor (who I knew because she was a school team mate) and on her second shot I clearly saw her ball go into some fescue around a bunker right and short of the green. We all go hunting for her ball, and suddenly she says 'here it is' in intermediate rough 15 yds closer to the green. I knew that couldn't be it since I clearly saw it going into the salad. As she is playing her shot I found her real ball in the fescue and I know because it had her initials on it. I showed it to my stepdaughter and she didn't want to report her because she was a friend. That girl actually ended up getting a scholarship, but I can't help but wonder how much of that was based on false tournament scores?











    Cheating was rampant when I played high school golf. It was mostly done by the players who shot in the upper 80's 90's. Scores were always incorrect even tho I counted and there was a lot of ball adjusting going on around the greens when they thought nobody was looking. Quite a bit of "yeah I found it, it's right here", while acting like they are brushing away loose impediments... like I didn't see you pull that ball out of your pocket and set it down in bounds. It doesn't matter tho cuz these kids won't amount to anything in competitive golf.

    All the players who took it seriously and shot better scores were usually great competitors and very honest... usually.











    I used to golf with an elderly fellow from my church. I always out drove him. I always hit it straighter. His "score" was always lower. I started watching him and noticed he never played the ball where it lied. He moved it to a fluffier piece of grass, or moved it from behind a tree. Best of all, OB or hazard never meant penalty stroke. I asked him about it and he said, "so I improve my lie once and a while". That's all well and good, but don't do that and give me a hard time when you "beat" me, because you didn't. And don't get me started on the gimmies on the green. That guy couldn't putt to save his life. Long story short, when he comes to church with the "I shot 78 at Longbow" stories, I chuckle and say, on the front nine?
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:


    cardoustie wrote:


    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses.




    If the rules were truly written for the masses, then...



    1. there would be no rules concerning caddies.

    Caddies have been a part of the game forever, and will continue to be. Also, most restrictions on caddies also apply to your partner, and most of us play partner games.

    2. there would be suggestions on cart etiquette, eating-at-the-turn etiquette, music etiquette, etc.

    There are. Don't unduly delay others, don't bother others with your music.

    2. the lost ball rule would take into consideration a crowded course on Saturday.

    It does, hit a provisional.

    3. the drop rule would leave unspecified what is the proper drop height.

    Why is that better, taking into account the reasons the Ruling Bodies have given for the reduced height?

    4. there would be no rule whatsoever about leaving the pin in or out.

    Exactly as it is now.

    5. all hazards would have the same rule regarding penalties and permitted drop areas. That is, under the JCFGA* rule "drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where the ball crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty"

    More severe than the current rule, two strokes?



    The rules as-written cover aspects of the game that the masses don't care about or won't ever encounter, while at the same time they are too tedious for most golfers to care to learn beyond a cursory glance (even at the highest level). An amazing feat. Thank you USGA!



    * JohnnyCashForever Golf Association. Memberships available. No free hat.




    The rules are intended to apply to ALL players, in all climates and geographic areas, in just about all circumstances imaginable. If you don't use a caddie, ignore those rules, its easy. Almost everything else you want is already in place. The rest is highly suspect, at least to me.




    If nothing else, JCF's post clearly shows us it's not ONLY the Tour Pros that have paid no attention to the new rules. image/cheesy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheesy:' /> image/cheesy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheesy:' /> image/cheesy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheesy:' />
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭



    Not sure I really understand the players' reactions to all this. In golf, players are characterized as being "professionals." Traditionally, they have earned that distinction by the presumption that they understand the craft of what they do (in addition to the technique and execution), and that means being responsible for knowing the rules of the game as presently stated. In my work, laws and procedures change all the time, and not always for the better. It's part of the field I am in. I politely offer feedback to lawmakers and sometimes they act on it and sometimes they don't. Regardless, part of my "craft" is to stay up to date on what is going on, good and bad, because if I don't, my institution gets fined or risks losing funding. I don't get to turn around to my State government or agencies and say "Sorry, I was more focused on the day to day than the big picture." In my opinion, it isn't enough to focus solely on the golf swing and ignore responsibilities in other areas. There are a lot of players who know certain rules enough to get a better drop or get out of trouble. It isn't so much a stretch to think they can handle a change here or there.






    You can be up-to-date on your "craft" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and still have a legitimate disagreement on the interpretation of a rule/law. Otherwise, we wouldn't need a Supreme Court.




    Just curious. Does "These Rules are stupid" meet your personal criteria of "legitimate disagreement" ?
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    davep043 wrote:


    cardoustie wrote:


    it's a unique situation where the rules are written (and applied ... most of the time) for the masses.




    If the rules were truly written for the masses, then...



    1. there would be no rules concerning caddies.

    Caddies have been a part of the game forever, and will continue to be. Also, most restrictions on caddies also apply to your partner, and most of us play partner games.

    2. there would be suggestions on cart etiquette, eating-at-the-turn etiquette, music etiquette, etc.

    There are. Don't unduly delay others, don't bother others with your music.

    2. the lost ball rule would take into consideration a crowded course on Saturday.

    It does, hit a provisional.

    3. the drop rule would leave unspecified what is the proper drop height.

    Why is that better, taking into account the reasons the Ruling Bodies have given for the reduced height?

    4. there would be no rule whatsoever about leaving the pin in or out.

    Exactly as it is now.

    5. all hazards would have the same rule regarding penalties and permitted drop areas. That is, under the JCFGA* rule "drop in the fairway no closer to the hole from where the ball crossed the hazard with a two stroke penalty"

    More severe than the current rule, two strokes?



    The rules as-written cover aspects of the game that the masses don't care about or won't ever encounter, while at the same time they are too tedious for most golfers to care to learn beyond a cursory glance (even at the highest level). An amazing feat. Thank you USGA!



    * JohnnyCashForever Golf Association. Memberships available. No free hat.




    The rules are intended to apply to ALL players, in all climates and geographic areas, in just about all circumstances imaginable. If you don't use a caddie, ignore those rules, its easy. Almost everything else you want is already in place. The rest is highly suspect, at least to me.


    I agree with what you're saying, but I do think the impetus behind the new drop rule and the alignment rule was the optics of what was happening on tv. Drop 3 times and place, the caddy standing in the shot then walking away after lining up the player (mostly LPGA obviously). I think those things bugged the USGA and they thought those were the type of things that make golf not as appealing to casual sports fans. In a nutshell, I think there are some new rules where one of if not the biggest objective was to make the game more "watchable" on tv by removing some of the mundane. I think they wanted to ban the green books for the same reason but got cold feet and just restricted them in the end. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but that's the sense I get.




    We agree !!!!! Lol



    Tv optics are the reason for those two changes. Period. I've said it a million times. The rules , at times , have a hard time standing up to tv cameras . Something that has no real impact " looks bad" on tv. So they change it. Which then Make a huge impact ( cost a player $60 k recently and Li $100k plus ) but " it looks good " on tv.




    Again you blame the Rules makers. How about blaming the players for not knowing the new Rule ? THEY are the ones that cost themselves $$$. Once again, they knew about it for at least a year and this was one of those listed as one of the MAJOR changes on the USGA website. Did they pay attention ? No.



    As for the optics and TV, surely you can follow the dots (and the $$$), no ? Which, BTW, further proves the USGA and PGA Tour are in this together because virtually the ONLY "optics", or reason for this particular rule change, is ON the PGA Tour(s).
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    nsxguy wrote:





    Tv optics are the reason for those two changes. Period. I've said it a million times. The rules , at times , have a hard time standing up to tv cameras . Something that has no real impact " looks bad" on tv. So they change it. Which then Make a huge impact ( cost a player $60 k recently and Li $100k plus ) but " it looks good " on tv.




    Again you blame the Rules makers. How about blaming the players for not knowing the new Rule ? THEY are the ones that cost themselves $$$. Once again, they knew about it for at least a year and this was one of those listed as one of the MAJOR changes on the USGA website. Did they pay attention ? No.



    As for the optics and TV, surely you can follow the dots (and the $$$), no ? Which, BTW, further proves the USGA and PGA Tour are in this together because virtually the ONLY "optics", or reason for this particular rule change, is ON the PGA Tour(s).


    As far as the money goes, a player who breaks the rule and incurs a penalty is going to lose some money. A few players who manage to play within the rules will pass him in the leaderboard, and make more money precisely because they played within the rules. I'm OK with that, it seems like a pretty good reason to spend a little time to study up on the rules. If you think about it, a well-spent 15 minutes could have saved Mr. Li a hundred grand, not a bad return on time invested.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    bscinstnct wrote:

    sheppy335 wrote:


    Golf needs to be better then other sports, it is a gentleman's game and ladies game. Not bunch of whiny people.




    We sure? Given all the "cheating" threads on golfwrx, seems golf has no exclusivity on gentlemanly behavior ; )



    This thread is great. It shares many examples of cheating on both the tournament and hacker level. Here are a couple of highlights>





    [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1572650-what-is-your-best-cheating-story/page__st__30"]http://www.golfwrx.c...ry/page__st__30[/url]





    I was walking along with my stepdaughter during a JGA tournament, and on a par 5 her playing partner and competitor (who I knew because she was a school team mate) and on her second shot I clearly saw her ball go into some fescue around a bunker right and short of the green. We all go hunting for her ball, and suddenly she says 'here it is' in intermediate rough 15 yds closer to the green. I knew that couldn't be it since I clearly saw it going into the salad. As she is playing her shot I found her real ball in the fescue and I know because it had her initials on it. I showed it to my stepdaughter and she didn't want to report her because she was a friend. That girl actually ended up getting a scholarship, but I can't help but wonder how much of that was based on false tournament scores?











    Cheating was rampant when I played high school golf. It was mostly done by the players who shot in the upper 80's 90's. Scores were always incorrect even tho I counted and there was a lot of ball adjusting going on around the greens when they thought nobody was looking. Quite a bit of "yeah I found it, it's right here", while acting like they are brushing away loose impediments... like I didn't see you pull that ball out of your pocket and set it down in bounds. It doesn't matter tho cuz these kids won't amount to anything in competitive golf.

    All the players who took it seriously and shot better scores were usually great competitors and very honest... usually.











    I used to golf with an elderly fellow from my church. I always out drove him. I always hit it straighter. His "score" was always lower. I started watching him and noticed he never played the ball where it lied. He moved it to a fluffier piece of grass, or moved it from behind a tree. Best of all, OB or hazard never meant penalty stroke. I asked him about it and he said, "so I improve my lie once and a while". That's all well and good, but don't do that and give me a hard time when you "beat" me, because you didn't. And don't get me started on the gimmies on the green. That guy couldn't putt to save his life. Long story short, when he comes to church with the "I shot 78 at Longbow" stories, I chuckle and say, on the front nine?




    Excellent post !
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 11:43am #523
    Nsx-



    That analogy doesn’t work. Neither instance I mentioned revolve around a player NOT knowing a rule. It revolves around Why the rule was changed.



    The optic came BEFORE the rule was changed. It was due to the LPgA caddies blocking TV camera men before shots. The DrOP was the same. People griped when DJ got relief at Oakmont from that TV tower. He dropped until it eventually got him out of the rough. Unfair ? Maybe. But in normal play it doesn’t happen. No TV towers or hotdog stands to get free relief from.



    My argument and post had zero to do with knowing a rule. And everything to do with why the rule was changed.TV
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 11:48am #524
    Dave and nsx.



    You’re missing my point.



    My point was that the two rules changes due to a TV appearance. Not due to some inequity within the field. So a change is made that wasn’t a real issue. Now the two rules or one mainly have caused issues. Unintended issues. The intention is to remove the optic from tv. That was done. I do not think anyone intended to penalize a caddie for kneeling behind his player who’s in a bunker to talk over the shot. His other option is talk really loud. Or walk into the bunker himself. Neither seem like the common sense thing to do.



    Of course they will have to now re wire their brains to stay inside the new rule. And they will. I simply was agreeing with what the actual impetus was to begin with and what consequences it has created to achieve the correct optics. Better TV viewing and less fan gripes are the root causation for the rule swaps.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 12:04pm #525


    Nsx-



    That analogy doesn't work. Neither instance I mentioned revolve around a player NOT knowing a rule. It revolves around Why the rule was changed.



    The optic came BEFORE the rule was changed. It was due to the LPgA caddies blocking TV camera men before shots. The DrOP was the same. People griped when DJ got relief at Oakmont from that TV tower. He dropped until it eventually got him out of the rough. Unfair ? Maybe. But in normal play it doesn't happen. No TV towers or hotdog stands to get free relief from.



    My argument and post had zero to do with knowing a rule. And everything to do with why the rule was changed.TV


    As I understand it, there have been issues with caddies (parents) lining up junior players. Training juniors that way is a much more serious issue for the long term health of the game than what the LPGA did. Sure, there's not much video, but its important, and MAY (I'm not making ASSumptions here) have had an impact on the decision-making. Its not necessarily ONLY because the caddies were interfering with the TV cameras.

    You may not remember, but I noted that a SINGLE drop could end up as far as 5 yards from its original location. That's not a TV thing, with multiple drops for a succession of reasons, its a single drop in real life for real golfers on real golf courses That was the stated reason for revising the entire drop procedure. Please read Section 17 here:



    http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf



    Assuming that you, or any of us, have a complete understanding of the reasons for the rules change is simply wrong. I admit I don't know, but I do recognize that there could be a number of reasons beyond the obvious.
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Again you blame the Rules makers. How about blaming the players for not knowing the new Rule ? THEY are the ones that cost themselves $$$. Once again, they knew about it for at least a year and this was one of those listed as one of the MAJOR changes on the USGA website. Did they pay attention ? No.



    As for the optics and TV, surely you can follow the dots (and the $$$), no ? Which, BTW, further proves the USGA and PGA Tour are in this together because virtually the ONLY "optics", or reason for this particular rule change, is ON the PGA Tour(s).





    Nsx-



    That analogy doesn't work. Neither instance I mentioned revolve around a player NOT knowing a rule. It revolves around Why the rule was changed.



    The optic came BEFORE the rule was changed. It was due to the LPgA caddies blocking TV camera men before shots. The DrOP was the same. People griped when DJ got relief at Oakmont from that TV tower. He dropped until it eventually got him out of the rough. Unfair ? Maybe. But in normal play it doesn't happen. No TV towers or hotdog stands to get free relief from.



    My argument and post had zero to do with knowing a rule. And everything to do with why the rule was changed.TV





    Dave and nsx.



    You're missing my point.



    My point was that the two rules changes due to a TV appearance. Not due to some inequity within the field. So a change is made that wasn't a real issue. Now the two rules or one mainly have caused issues. Unintended issues. The intention is to remove the optic from tv. That was done. I do not think anyone intended to penalize a caddie for kneeling behind his player who's in a bunker to talk over the shot. His other option is talk really loud. Or walk into the bunker himself. Neither seem like the common sense thing to do.




    Firstly I didn't make an analogy.



    But more importantly, I'm "missing your point" ? I may be right or I may be wrong but did I or did I NOT I address (your point) WHY the change was made ? image/blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    nsxguy wrote:



    Again you blame the Rules makers. How about blaming the players for not knowing the new Rule ? THEY are the ones that cost themselves $$$. Once again, they knew about it for at least a year and this was one of those listed as one of the MAJOR changes on the USGA website. Did they pay attention ? No.



    As for the optics and TV, surely you can follow the dots (and the $$$), no ? Which, BTW, further proves the USGA and PGA Tour are in this together because virtually the ONLY "optics", or reason for this particular rule change, is ON the PGA Tour(s).





    Nsx-



    That analogy doesn't work. Neither instance I mentioned revolve around a player NOT knowing a rule. It revolves around Why the rule was changed.



    The optic came BEFORE the rule was changed. It was due to the LPgA caddies blocking TV camera men before shots. The DrOP was the same. People griped when DJ got relief at Oakmont from that TV tower. He dropped until it eventually got him out of the rough. Unfair ? Maybe. But in normal play it doesn't happen. No TV towers or hotdog stands to get free relief from.



    My argument and post had zero to do with knowing a rule. And everything to do with why the rule was changed.TV





    Dave and nsx.



    You're missing my point.



    My point was that the two rules changes due to a TV appearance. Not due to some inequity within the field. So a change is made that wasn't a real issue. Now the two rules or one mainly have caused issues. Unintended issues. The intention is to remove the optic from tv. That was done. I do not think anyone intended to penalize a caddie for kneeling behind his player who's in a bunker to talk over the shot. His other option is talk really loud. Or walk into the bunker himself. Neither seem like the common sense thing to do.




    Firstly I didn't make an analogy.



    But more importantly, I'm "missing your point" ? I may be right or I may be wrong but did I or did I NOT I address (your point) WHY the change was made ? image/blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />




    No. Because we weren’t talking about the rule being infringed on itself. I was talking about why it was changed to begin with. Moving the goal posts back to “ the players are responsible “ doesn’t go with that.
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 12:22pm #528

    nsxguy wrote:

    nsxguy wrote:


    Again you blame the Rules makers. How about blaming the players for not knowing the new Rule ? THEY are the ones that cost themselves $$$. Once again, they knew about it for at least a year and this was one of those listed as one of the MAJOR changes on the USGA website. Did they pay attention ? No.



    As for the optics and TV, surely you can follow the dots (and the $$$), no ? Which, BTW, further proves the USGA and PGA Tour are in this together because virtually the ONLY "optics", or reason for this particular rule change, is ON the PGA Tour(s).





    Nsx-



    That analogy doesn't work. Neither instance I mentioned revolve around a player NOT knowing a rule. It revolves around Why the rule was changed.



    The optic came BEFORE the rule was changed. It was due to the LPgA caddies blocking TV camera men before shots. The DrOP was the same. People griped when DJ got relief at Oakmont from that TV tower. He dropped until it eventually got him out of the rough. Unfair ? Maybe. But in normal play it doesn't happen. No TV towers or hotdog stands to get free relief from.



    My argument and post had zero to do with knowing a rule. And everything to do with why the rule was changed.TV





    Dave and nsx.



    You're missing my point.



    My point was that the two rules changes due to a TV appearance. Not due to some inequity within the field. So a change is made that wasn't a real issue. Now the two rules or one mainly have caused issues. Unintended issues. The intention is to remove the optic from tv. That was done. I do not think anyone intended to penalize a caddie for kneeling behind his player who's in a bunker to talk over the shot. His other option is talk really loud. Or walk into the bunker himself. Neither seem like the common sense thing to do.




    Firstly I didn't make an analogy.



    But more importantly, I'm "missing your point" ? I may be right or I may be wrong but did I or did I NOT I address (your point) WHY the change was made ? image/blink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />




    No. Because we weren't talking about the rule being infringed on itself. I was talking about why it was changed to begin with. Moving the goal posts back to " the players are responsible " doesn't go with that.




    Oy.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 12:29pm #529
    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say “ cause “ I’m thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone’s brain as a possible “ issue”. It’s TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don’t hold up to today’s tv viewer.



    Edit - and juniors maybe a big part too on the caddie rule. That I wasn’t aware of. They made that claim for the anchor rule too.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Oy.....lol.



    Nsx-

    The USga fields the lions share of calls and tweets griping about tv rules issues. Not the pga. That’s why it’s still USga.



    Who’s ever heard anyone here call out the pga for a rule ? Nobody.
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.




    My friend, have you seen this document ? https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019%20(1).pdf
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 12:31pm #532
    nsxguy wrote:



    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.




    My friend, have you seen this document ? [url="https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Explanation for Each Major Change in the New Rules of Golf for 2019 (1).pdf"]https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Explanation for Each Major Change in the New Rules of Golf for 2019 (1).pdf[/url]






    Lol. Yep. Just read some of the reasons on the first rule. “ unfair “. “ accident”. All words from TV viewers call ins.
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Oy.....lol.



    Nsx-

    The USga fields the lions share of calls and tweets griping about tv rules issues. Not the pga. That's why it's still USga.



    Who's ever heard anyone here call out the pga for a rule ? Nobody.




    You were "discussing the Rule and why it was changed.



    I gave you a possible reason; follow the money,,,,,,,,,,



    Don't agree ? No worries. image/hi.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hi:' />
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    nsxguy wrote:



    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.




    My friend, have you seen this document ? https://www.usga.org...or 2019 (1).pdf






    Lol. Yep. Just read some of the reasons on the first rule. " unfair ". " accident". All words from TV viewers call ins.




    Well, I don't know what a "wed" is but you seem to now be implying that all the changes are from "TV". Again, no worries. Your choice. image/good.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':good:' />
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.



    Edit - and juniors maybe a big part too on the caddie rule. That I wasn't aware of. They made that claim for the anchor rule too.


    You may be right in that a number of rules came under evaluation based on appearances on TV. But the reason they were CHANGED went far beyond simple appearances. Your average TV viewer has significantly less knowledge of the Rules than your average WRXer, and there are a fair number of WRXers that remain pretty uninformed. To make changes based on the opinions of the uninformed TV viewer would be foolhardy, and I simply don't believe that happened. ****, if appearances on TV really did matter, Rickie would actually have a legitimate point about the knee-high drop. I don't think it looks silly, unless the players purposely make it look that way, but Joe Sixpack just might.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Nope. Never said ALL.



    Never said pga had zero onus either.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    nsxguy wrote:



    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.




    My friend, have you seen this document ? https://www.usga.org...or 2019 (1).pdf






    Lol. Yep. Just read some of the reasons on the first rule. " unfair ". " accident". All words from TV viewers call ins.


    The first rule is about double hits. When was the last time a anyone SAW a double-hit live on TV, TC Chen? I'm pretty sure that change had nothing to do with TV
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 7, 2019 12:42pm #538
    davep043 wrote:


    nsxguy wrote:



    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.




    My friend, have you seen this document ? [url="https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Explanation for Each Major Change in the New Rules of Golf for 2019 (1).pdf"]https://www.usga.org...or 2019 (1).pdf[/url]






    Lol. Yep. Just read some of the reasons on the first rule. " unfair ". " accident". All words from TV viewers call ins.


    The first rule is about double hits. When was the last time a anyone SAW a double-hit live on TV, TC Chen? I'm pretty sure that change had nothing to do with TV




    Yes. Technically so. But “ accidental deflections “are covered in 1 and 2 equally . You get my point.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,582 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:



    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.



    Edit - and juniors maybe a big part too on the caddie rule. That I wasn't aware of. They made that claim for the anchor rule too.


    You may be right in that a number of rules came under evaluation based on appearances on TV. But the reason they were CHANGED went far beyond simple appearances. Your average TV viewer has significantly less knowledge of the Rules than your average WRXer, and there are a fair number of WRXers that remain pretty uninformed. To make changes based on the opinions of the uninformed TV viewer would be foolhardy, and I simply don't believe that happened. ****, if appearances on TV really did matter, Rickie would actually have a legitimate point about the knee-high drop. I don't think it looks silly, unless the players purposely make it look that way, but Joe Sixpack just might.




    Don’t really disagree. My point really was that simple. That TV and viewing the tour in general on TV are responsible for a lot of the rules changes we’ve seen on the last 15 years.



    I don’t think anchoring or the groove rule ever happen minus tv
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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 4,256 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:



    Nsx-



    That analogy doesn't work. Neither instance I mentioned revolve around a player NOT knowing a rule. It revolves around Why the rule was changed.



    The optic came BEFORE the rule was changed. It was due to the LPgA caddies blocking TV camera men before shots. The DrOP was the same. People griped when DJ got relief at Oakmont from that TV tower. He dropped until it eventually got him out of the rough. Unfair ? Maybe. But in normal play it doesn't happen. No TV towers or hotdog stands to get free relief from.



    My argument and post had zero to do with knowing a rule. And everything to do with why the rule was changed.TV


    As I understand it, there have been issues with caddies (parents) lining up junior players. Training juniors that way is a much more serious issue for the long term health of the game than what the LPGA did. Sure, there's not much video, but its important, and MAY (I'm not making ASSumptions here) have had an impact on the decision-making. Its not necessarily ONLY because the caddies were interfering with the TV cameras.

    You may not remember, but I noted that a SINGLE drop could end up as far as 5 yards from its original location. That's not a TV thing, with multiple drops for a succession of reasons, its a single drop in real life for real golfers on real golf courses That was the stated reason for revising the entire drop procedure. Please read Section 17 here:



    http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf



    Assuming that you, or any of us, have a complete understanding of the reasons for the rules change is simply wrong. I admit I don't know, but I do recognize that there could be a number of reasons beyond the obvious.




    There you go! That's the root cause for all this consternation. USGA should tell us all the reasons.
  • ClintDaggerClintDagger Members Posts: 580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    davep043 wrote:


    nsxguy wrote:



    . Dave-



    We do not know it all. I surely will never claim I do. It may sound that way as I tend to speak in absolutes. But I never mean there is no other option unless I say that.



    The multiple drop thing is still a tv viewer favorite gripe issue.



    When I say " cause " I'm thinking what made the subject originally come up? What caused it to enter someone's brain as a possible " issue". It's TV viewer complaints.



    Same as some of the other changes. The ball moving on the green free replacement. Viewers complaining.



    THats what I mean when I say that a lot of the rules don't hold up to today's tv viewer.




    My friend, have you seen this document ? [url="https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Explanation for Each Major Change in the New Rules of Golf for 2019 (1).pdf"]https://www.usga.org...or 2019 (1).pdf[/url]






    Lol. Yep. Just read some of the reasons on the first rule. " unfair ". " accident". All words from TV viewers call ins.


    The first rule is about double hits. When was the last time a anyone SAW a double-hit live on TV, TC Chen? I'm pretty sure that change had nothing to do with TV


    I actually think there’s an argument to be made that the double hit and grounding your club in a hazard rule changes were TV related in that they might be designed to combat people that think they saw something on high def super slo-mo. I’ve seen a few people question grains of sand on the sole or whether a chip might have been double hit more than a few times in recent years.
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