This just blew my mind...........Correct Lie Angle?

24

Comments

  • wobgonwobgon Members Posts: 7,519 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Criticizing TXG on WRX...….Blasphemy.....
  • Pi5seekerPi5seeker Members Posts: 883 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I watched the video last night and was concerned but my fitter used a marked ball and face tape while also using the monitor and tested it on a lie board. The best results were with +2 lie angle...
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  • Lefty28Lefty28 Members Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    I can’t believe people are arguing for perfect divots and bad ball flights over bad divots and perfect ball flights. I’ll take bad divots and lower scores thanks.
  • sdandreasdandrea Steve Members Posts: 2,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I still think the most accurate fitting can only occur outside, hitting balls off the turf. The truth is in the dirt.

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  • wobgonwobgon Members Posts: 7,519 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Pretty simple really.....Two guys telling us that everyone is stupid but them.....I won't make a video, but I will tell you this.... It's not hard to fit yourself into the proper lie with your irons and no electricity is needed.
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    wobgon wrote:


    Pretty simple really.....Two guys telling us that everyone is stupid but them.....I won't make a video, but I will tell you this.... It's not hard to fit yourself into the proper lie with your irons and no electricity is needed.




    How freaking dare you, sir. How dare you.
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  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,723 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I've used a lie board before and don't find it the devil's spawn. Would I use it for a PGA pro? Maybe not, but for most normal golfers it's good enough. And last time I checked the OEM that starts with P recommends its use.
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  • JCAGJCAG John Curry Members Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    wobgon wrote:


    Pretty simple really.....Two guys telling us that everyone is stupid but them.....I won't make a video, but I will tell you this.... It's not hard to fit yourself into the proper lie with your irons and no electricity is needed.




    Heresy...heresy...



    Plus they are in Toronto so outside fitting not available for at least 1/3rd or more of the year.
  • Snowman9000Snowman9000 Members Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    One thing i didn't like was that with the upright club, Ian's face closure rate almost doubled from something like 2500 to 4800. So was he using his hands to demonstrate a more leftward flight? If so, that was apples and oranges.
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  • MoomitchMoomitch ClubWRX Posts: 30 ClubWRX
    So are we saying that every player should fix their swing "flaws" regardless of the results they produce? That Dustin Johnson guy could really be good if he fixed that bowed wrist.



    I watched the video as well, and it didn't seem like they were advocating for using lie angle solely (pun intended) to fix a swing flaw. What it seemed like the idea was is to always take into account ball flight and the result of the shot rather than fitting to "ideal" lie angle.
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  • wessnutswessnuts Members Posts: 93
    I enjoy the heck out of TXG’s free content. As an avid golfer not allowed into Canada I have ZERO ambition to ever go to their facility for a fitting to “reward” them (with my hard earned cash) for their “marketing”.



    But I still give them a TON of credit for putting in the work to create these videos.



    Yes maybe they’re using the Youtube platform to build their brand but hey; that’s what entrepeneurs have to do. That being said I don’t think they’re doing anything malicious to hoodwink the public.



    I’ve been “fit” improperly more times than I care to admit. That’s why I follow the threads on this forum and watch Youtube videos. I don’t take what anybody says as gospel. I accumulate as much knowledge as possible and see what works for me. This gives me the confidence to engage in conversation with the driving range pros and custom clubfitters I meet.



    Many of us golfers are trying to improve whether it be at an elite competitive level or just trying to win a closest to the pin in our weekly golf league (to help pay for the 19th hole!). Isn’t that why we’re on WRX?



    Anyways that’s my selfish rant. Thanks for reading.



    You know what would be cool? Someone start a GoFundMe to send Howard to TXG. Get Ian & Matty to film that session!
  • wobgonwobgon Members Posts: 7,519 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    wessnuts wrote:


    I enjoy the heck out of TXG's free content. As an avid golfer not allowed into Canada I have ZERO ambition to ever go to their facility for a fitting to "reward" them (with my hard earned cash) for their "marketing".



    But I still give them a TON of credit for putting in the work to create these videos.



    Yes maybe they're using the Youtube platform to build their brand but hey; that's what entrepeneurs have to do. That being said I don't think they're doing anything malicious to hoodwink the public.



    I've been "fit" improperly more times than I care to admit. That's why I follow the threads on this forum and watch Youtube videos. I don't take what anybody says as gospel. I accumulate as much knowledge as possible and see what works for me. This gives me the confidence to engage in conversation with the driving range pros and custom clubfitters I meet.



    Many of us golfers are trying to improve whether it be at an elite competitive level or just trying to win a closest to the pin in our weekly golf league (to help pay for the 19th hole!). Isn't that why we're on WRX?



    Anyways that's my selfish rant. Thanks for reading.



    You know what would be cool? Someone start a GoFundMe to send Howard to TXG. Get Ian & Matty to film that session!


    I'll donate if you start one to send the TXG crew to Howard.
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Members Posts: 446 ✭✭✭✭


    One thing i didn't like was that with the upright club, Ian's face closure rate almost doubled from something like 2500 to 4800. So was he using his hands to demonstrate a more leftward flight? If so, that was apples and oranges.




    This is exactly why these "experiments" are so deeply flawed. The likelihood there isn't some sort of bias at work here is essentially zero - even if it wasn't consciously intentional. One could've just as easily made another sort of video explaining how a golfer can easily "adapt" to whatever changes are made to the club and manipulate the result so that those changes can be nullified.
  • cxxcxx Members Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Z1ggy16 wrote:


    Z1ggy16 wrote:


    He is indeed using it to correct a flaw, but he literally can't play golf with a 4* upright lie angle at this moment, as shown. He's playing off scratch with his flaw, and he's not getting paid to play. So who cares what's "right" and "wrong" with respect to his club specs. I'm sure he is working on getting that handle raising & flip action to stop, and as he's progressing, he can slowly make his clubs more upright.



    Isn't the goal to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible? Fitting should be based around our swing and what's working at that moment, not some kind of idealized characteristics. If it was, nobody should go get fit until you swing 120 with driver, with perfect AoA, face to path and club path direction. If you change your swing... go get refit. Rinse & repeat until your game & swing is at a point where you are content. I think the point of their video is to just show us simply that the lie board is really just part of the equation of fitting for iron lie angle. You need to factor in your swing [flaws] and understand how you strike the ball, too.




    You dont seems to understand my point at all



    # 1 this company promote FITTING

    ...., but what we saw was misuse of lie angles to fix a swing flaw, and yes that can be done temporary, but is that club fitting of lie angles? no it was a fix of a swing flaw using lie angles to fix it.



    # 2

    Equipment FORCE the player...so by changing club specs we can tweak the player back to whats right, and yes, in the end its about how many, but if thats all you care about, DONT mention fitting at all, but when they move into that area (its their living), we talk MORE than scoring, and we use club specs to get the players swing to become good, here it was used to keep status Q who was no good, and thats kind of "anti fitting" in my book.



    For drivers we should involve face angle at address, for most thats out of the question because they cant stand the look of a open or closed face, bit this player should consider that instead of mis-using lie angles like he does, it prevent him from his best score even as a scratch player...


    I mean, I'll admit my reading comprehension isn't the best in the world, but I'm pretty sure you're advocating to fit players based on what should work for them, and not actually what does. You're saying that if Ian walked in your shop with 4* toe down and a 5 yard draw that hits the green and played to scratch, you'd fit him into 4* upright irons and that would somehow, in your experience/opinion, force him into a better swing despite the fact that he'd walk out your doors with a 20 yard hook, but hey... his dynamic lie is zero'ed out so... that's good, right? Maybe he goes and gets lessons and learns to not flip the face shut and all is well. Or... he doesn't or can't, and everybody wasted their time and he's right back to 4* flat again.



    As Jag says in post #14, very few guys can truly and permanently change their swing after having done something incorrectly for so long. If we could, we'd all play off scratch and people wouldn't be tossing clubs into lakes or breaking shafts over their legs in anger as they duff another shot. Odds are Ian is going to yank the handle up and flip through impact for the foreseeable future. If he can shoot par or near par most of the time... Why does being "ill fit" into 4* flat irons matter? Does your playing partner or really anybody else care what your iron specs are if you shot E ? I wouldn't. Obviously correcting the swing and putting his irons more upright is the right thing to do, but the odds he will or has the time to do so is low.



    Again, just my .02. I don't think you need a fancy GCQ or anything to fit lie but it was there to help support their opinion.




    There is a reason that Ian isn't the ball striker in their videos. The two of them together don't seem to understand what's going on with Ian's swing and how he is compensating for the clubs that don't fit. Will Ian ever get better? Who knows, but the bigger question is how can a fitter be so ill informed about his own swing and clubs when the information is staring right at them?
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 9, 2019 1:19am #46
    wobgon wrote:

    wessnuts wrote:


    I enjoy the heck out of TXG's free content. As an avid golfer not allowed into Canada I have ZERO ambition to ever go to their facility for a fitting to "reward" them (with my hard earned cash) for their "marketing".



    But I still give them a TON of credit for putting in the work to create these videos.



    Yes maybe they're using the Youtube platform to build their brand but hey; that's what entrepeneurs have to do. That being said I don't think they're doing anything malicious to hoodwink the public.



    I've been "fit" improperly more times than I care to admit. That's why I follow the threads on this forum and watch Youtube videos. I don't take what anybody says as gospel. I accumulate as much knowledge as possible and see what works for me. This gives me the confidence to engage in conversation with the driving range pros and custom clubfitters I meet.



    Many of us golfers are trying to improve whether it be at an elite competitive level or just trying to win a closest to the pin in our weekly golf league (to help pay for the 19th hole!). Isn't that why we're on WRX?



    Anyways that's my selfish rant. Thanks for reading.



    You know what would be cool? Someone start a GoFundMe to send Howard to TXG. Get Ian & Matty to film that session!


    I'll donate if you start one to send the TXG crew to Howard.




    That could have been fun, i gave the Danish PGA system that challenge, put me side by side with the man they mean is their best club fitter and let us do a fitting on the same player and see where we ended up. Nobody wanted that challenge, i even gave them the benefit of using their fitting cart, and i would not even use a launch monitor (driver fitting), i would only bring a small case with tool for max 100 USD...its a big mistake thinking club fitting is about launch monitors, they are just helping tools we can do without, but that seems to be unknown in todays world where this numbers is rated higher than anything, but they dont even understand how to read them,...but they are the "holy numbers".



    The thing is, MOST club fitters are no good when it comes to the basics where it all starts, and im talking simple stuff like judging play length, total weight and weight distribution (balance NOT SW values), and ALL those places ive seen where i lived for 18 years (Denmark), there is NOT a single place who does anything what so ever with head weight during what they call a "fitting", and they dont have anything but standard play lengths....



    i held classes for this system i 2012, and showed them how a driver fitting should be done and why standard play lengths is no good...Tom Wishon did the same to them in 2016...They still offer noting but standard play lengths, and if you ask for s shorter club and extra weight for the head....YOU will have to take care of that yourself, they dont even have the weights in stock, and why would they when they dont care about head weight'?



    its seem like they reject what ever they was shown, or they still dont understand it...im not sure whats right, but it is STUPID when you know better, but like Ron White say...you cant fix stupid, and this system acts stupid since they dont change and use the knowledge they have been given for the benefit of them self and their Customers, so changing the club fitting industry is anything but easy



    The TXG guys is miles above this level, make no mistakes about that, but its still to much old myths and nonsense that keeps being recycled and reused, and im not so sure that the educational value is present, its more commercial and PR of their own Company, so take it for what it is.



    There is a big whole in the internet when we talk both club fitting and club making, and now im talking about free and open sources without commercial interests, meaning NEUTRAL info without brand bias, and i have plans to do something about that, so ive turned down the offers i have to write a book and sell it for money, i will still do the job, but with nobody over my neck telling med "how i must do it", because then it aint mine no more.



    it will be launched this year when im done with the APPs im working on, they are actually a part of it, and there is a few more to come, so i will cover absolutely every legal task of modification of club heads for all clubs in the bag. The "issue" is that the amount of information is "large" to use a understatement, and lots of it will be forgotten if its not used on a daily basis, and thats where this APPs is coming in.



    They are excel sheets who does the math behind what ever modification we like to make, and what happens when we do, because i see a huge need for more knowledge on this subject in general, like how we can get a shaft we love in one club to play the same in another club. A question like that should be strait forward to find the answer to, but give it a try.....unless you found a post ive written about it, you want find it, and thats what i want to make a difference to, but its quite a job to collect it all, rewrite it, and make it into something thats educational and easy to understand for any reader.



    I no longer have any commercial interests in Golf equipment, and i will keep it that way, and give my knowledge away for FREE to anyone who wants to use it, thats the best offer i can give, and the project has been on its way for some time now where the VBA apps is the first you get to see of this.



    If any of my affords here can make a difference for the ones who use that info, i made it, and so far its more than a few players world wide who was more than just happy with help given online in forums like the WRX, so i know it can be done and become something that can be used real life and not only as theories of how it might work.



    PS when the PXG Golf Company was at the start and was searching for personnel, i actually applied, but they never even bother to reply, so im not so sure the Golfing industry is fully ready to to 100% Custom fit with all parameters present and taken care of, it seems to be way over and beyond their goals because that "marked place" is VERY SMALL, so they want make a huge commercial success that way....money talks in business, thats the law of nature here.
  • freowhofreowho Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    I've had an epiphany over the last couple of months in regards to clubfitting.

    I have been a low single figure golfer for 20 years. I injured my leg well before I started playing golf and have always had a poor pivot, closed clubface and a steep angle of attack. Despite many, many lessons it has never changed. Every time I have a club fit, which is lots, the fitter sees my swing and swing speed and automatically goes for the "low markers" head and I have always played with these types of clubs.

    Recently I started hitting balls with a friends "high markers" clubs and despite a loss of distance couldn't believe how well I was hitting them and especially how easy it was to chip out of any kind of lie. After a bit of research and more practice with a variety of different clubs it occurs to me that the centre of gravity of the club is probably the most important aspect of the club fit.

    The "low markers" heads are mostly heel weighted and the "high markers" heads are mostly centre or toe weighted. My angle of attack with the "low markers" head was always steep and my divots were heavy yet with the "high markers" head my angle of attack became extremely shallow to the point where I was picking the ball clean without a divot so it had nothing to do with the bounce.

    Because I have a shut club on the downswing my reaction to having a heel weighted club is to hit down to stop it turning over. When you give me the toe weighted club I can shallow my angle of attack without fear of the club turning over. I've also learnt that the heel weighted club will go straight with a flat lie angle and the toe weighted club will go straight with an upright lie angle.

    Thanks to the wonderful work on the Ralph Maltby website and my golf club giving me access to a heap of old clubs in their store room I've worked out the ideal c dimension seems to be somewhere between 1.35 - 1.4. This is where I can get the lie angle correct, the bounce mark correct, and the ball flight straight and just swing the club without having to "fix" my swing.

    Now I am not an expert on club making so it is possible there are other factors at play but the correlation of c dimension and happy golfer with all the clubs I've tried (about 7 in the last month but dozens in the memory bank) has been 100%.

    I can now look back at all my clubfits and see all the compensations fitters have been making trying to get me to hit a head that just wasn't right. One fitter even recommended X7 shafts to reduce my spin rate. I had to see the chiropractor after the fitting session!

    But now that I have had this epiphany I also realise that nearly every head with the right centre of gravity for my golf swing is also made for slower swing speeds than mine. I am now on the search for a "high markers" head with a "low markers" ball flight. I know some companies offer to deloft their irons so that might be an option and the moving weights in the woods is also probably something for me to look for.
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 9, 2019 6:49am #48
    Awainer1 wrote:


    Actual specs should be checked on a loft lie gauge using the sole radius of the leading edge. Without that information you are pissing in the wind




    Thats not really needed, and i know that we cant trust grooves to be set 90* to loft on the face, but thats the lines used in bending machines since the sole might vary a lot depending on club head model. there is also a "tolerance" for sole shape since most of the "better heads" is hand grinded before chrome plating, so 2 heads dont have to be "equal" on the sole. If you now look into those FACE labels ive made, you get to see a ratio of 1 :10 (on a 57 mm diameter), so the groves must be 10* off from loft angle to give us a misreading of 1 on lie angle. That means the grooves is more precise as "starting point" than the sole is, because if grooves is that bad, it will be visible for the eye that they are printed wrong on the face, and i never saw a head like that,. but many where the club grinder took away to little or to much and made the sole asymmetric.



    i run into the same "sole issue" in heads ive grinded my self, so this is a issue ive spend quite a lot of time on to figure out how we should deal with it, using the standard measure equipment we have (bending machines)



    If we use the same "constant"/"tool" when we measure and adjust, the numbers is actually RELATIVE, and dont have to be "true numbers", because we will never see true numbers in a loft and lie machine the way they are designed, it cant be done, but if we measure a change of 1*, there is no reason to mistrust that the change is 1* and thats how e should tread this issue.



    Even 2 clubs with the exact same head gives different lie angle reading in a bending machine, depending on if we use a parallel tip shaft or a constant taper tip sjaft, since the lie angle gauge will be resting against the side of the shaft, we cant measure against the "center inside", so when we fix the head in the clamp, and put in and out a taper vs a parallel, we get a different output number for lie angle.



    This is a NO ISSUE, because changes we do is relative to what we came from, and actual values is really out of interest, we dont need them and cant use them for any thing we cant use the relative numbers for, but some might be confused about 2 different lie angle outputs from the same heads, but thats scenario is not common, (changing shaft tip type), so hardly nobody will run into that.



    Parallels will show a slightly more upright lie, and is closer to "true numbers" than a shaft where the tip has a taper all the way like DG, then output number from our bending machine will show a lie angle a tad lower or more flat, but we still talk the same DIFFERENCE from head to head, so the RELATIVE difference is correct when we bend this clubs to other specs, and we never mix parallels and tapers, so it ends as a "non issue", even if they return different values and non of them is "true". We navigate using them as RELATIVE numbers.
  • BonesawBonesaw Members Posts: 530 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow I tried the sharpie on the range ball. Super easy and worked really well.



    I had become interested in lie angle after switching from my long time mizuno to some stock pxg last week. Outta the box the pxg were starting left with a little draw. I play a fade 99% of the time (mostly because I cant draw it very well) with all clubs. It was very unusual to be starting it so far left with a draw to boot.



    I was puzzled and had the pxg flattened to mizuno specs. I put the pxg 5 iron at mizuno 4 iron specs, since pxg stamps a 5 on their 4 iron, and so on. Everything is now starting right where I want with a nice tiny fade.



    Then I saw this post! Im happy with the ball flight and the line was straight up and down this morning.



    I never gave enough credit to lie angles since I had been playing those same irons for so long.



    Im going to mess around with my wedges next as I have a tendency to start them left.



    Thank you to all the expert posters on here.
  • ThayneilThayneil Members Posts: 561 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kro88 wrote:


    this is heavy duty! good stuff, feel like Howard needs a vacation after that post.




    you should see his Rifle stuff!



    should get a PhD for that!
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    wobgon wrote:


    Pretty simple really.....Two guys telling us that everyone is stupid but them.....I won't make a video, but I will tell you this.... It's not hard to fit yourself into the proper lie with your irons and no electricity is needed.




    I found a real high tech method. I set up with the club and my club guy eyeballs how it looks. Then if he thinks it needs adjustment, he does so.



    It seems to have worked ok so far, he’s been doing it for me for 20+ years.
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    Howard’s stuff is so far over my head I don’t understand most of it. But I read it all anyway and try to learn something. .
    Titleist 910 8.5
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    SC GoLo
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  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 9, 2019 12:40pm #53


    Howard’s stuff is so far over my head I don’t understand most of it. But I read it all anyway and try to learn something. .




    i had no idea that my post would drag so much attention, if i knew i would have used more time to improve the lousy English used, so i understand if its problematic to read it, but its simple stuff really, even using LM for the task is or should be for those who work with LM every day, since the numbers involved aint larger than most of us do in our heads without helping tools.



    The complicated stuff is to find behind those labels ive made, its actually the SOLE system i say dont work, but moved to the face and reversed where plus becomes minus, and the angles actually is the distance from the center of the face out to impact, measured in a 1x1 inch box, so if you really want some gym for the brain, here is whats behind..



  • JCAGJCAG John Curry Members Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    There has always been a running argument among club fitters as to does one simply fit the golfers' swing no matter the swing or does one try and correct the swing some?



    Harvey Penick said (sort of) if ones swing repeatedly get the job done, then leave the swing alone. Go back and watch video of Arnold Palmer's and Lee Trevino's swing. Horrible swings that got the job done year after year.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,253 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    JCAG wrote:


    There has always been a running argument among club fitters as to does one simply fit the golfers' swing no matter the swing or does one try and correct the swing some?



    Harvey Penick said (sort of) if ones swing repeatedly get the job done, then leave the swing alone. Go back and watch video of Arnold Palmer's and Lee Trevino's swing. Horrible swings that got the job done year after year.




    Yep. They May have been “horrible” to look at but Lee and Arnie’s swings were beautiful where it mattered....just before and just after impact.



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  • Red4282Red4282 Members Posts: 332 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 9, 2019 3:20pm #56
    Ha yall are hilarious. Yall know all the answers to every golfers problems. Propaganda? Lmao, thats someone who has never watched more than 2 or 3 of their videos. In all seriousness... i love txg and what they are saying here is outside the box and the norms for a long time. My first thought was youre using lie angle to corect a swing problem as im sure many others of you had thought as well. Problem is most people dont want to work extensively with their swing. Some just wanna go play and find their ball. Im a 0-5 handicap range and i dont even want to work on my swing all that much. If a lie angle is erasing some doubt on A pattern of shots then great! Ill never be a pro, but i can go enjoy my game now and not worry about every friggin swing flaw
  • BrianMcGBrianMcG Members Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 9, 2019 4:14pm #57
    JCAG wrote:


    There has always been a running argument among club fitters as to does one simply fit the golfers' swing no matter the swing or does one try and correct the swing some?



    Harvey Penick said (sort of) if ones swing repeatedly get the job done, then leave the swing alone. Go back and watch video of Arnold Palmer's and Lee Trevino's swing. Horrible swings that got the job done year after year.




    Nobody alive that knows anything about golf thinks lee and Arnie had horrible swings. Just lol at that.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
    Bobby: I play because I love it.
    Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.
  • rgk5rgk5 rgk5(OLB) Members Posts: 3,618 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 10, 2019 9:41am #58

    wobgon wrote:

    wessnuts wrote:


    I enjoy the heck out of TXG's free content. As an avid golfer not allowed into Canada I have ZERO ambition to ever go to their facility for a fitting to "reward" them (with my hard earned cash) for their "marketing".



    But I still give them a TON of credit for putting in the work to create these videos.



    Yes maybe they're using the Youtube platform to build their brand but hey; that's what entrepeneurs have to do. That being said I don't think they're doing anything malicious to hoodwink the public.



    I've been "fit" improperly more times than I care to admit. That's why I follow the threads on this forum and watch Youtube videos. I don't take what anybody says as gospel. I accumulate as much knowledge as possible and see what works for me. This gives me the confidence to engage in conversation with the driving range pros and custom clubfitters I meet.



    Many of us golfers are trying to improve whether it be at an elite competitive level or just trying to win a closest to the pin in our weekly golf league (to help pay for the 19th hole!). Isn't that why we're on WRX?



    Anyways that's my selfish rant. Thanks for reading.



    You know what would be cool? Someone start a GoFundMe to send Howard to TXG. Get Ian & Matty to film that session!


    I'll donate if you start one to send the TXG crew to Howard.




    That could have been fun, i gave the Danish PGA system that challenge, put me side by side with the man they mean is their best club fitter and let us do a fitting on the same player and see where we ended up. Nobody wanted that challenge, i even gave them the benefit of using their fitting cart, and i would not even use a launch monitor (driver fitting), i would only bring a small case with tool for max 100 USD...its a big mistake thinking club fitting is about launch monitors, they are just helping tools we can do without, but that seems to be unknown in todays world where this numbers is rated higher than anything, but they dont even understand how to read them,...but they are the "holy numbers".



    The thing is, MOST club fitters are no good when it comes to the basics where it all starts, and im talking simple stuff like judging play length, total weight and weight distribution (balance NOT SW values), and ALL those places ive seen where i lived for 18 years (Denmark), there is NOT a single place who does anything what so ever with head weight during what they call a "fitting", and they dont have anything but standard play lengths....



    i held classes for this system i 2012, and showed them how a driver fitting should be done and why standard play lengths is no good...Tom Wishon did the same to them in 2016...They still offer noting but standard play lengths, and if you ask for s shorter club and extra weight for the head....YOU will have to take care of that yourself, they dont even have the weights in stock, and why would they when they dont care about head weight'?



    its seem like they reject what ever they was shown, or they still dont understand it...im not sure whats right, but it is STUPID when you know better, but like Ron White say...you cant fix stupid, and this system acts stupid since they dont change and use the knowledge they have been given for the benefit of them self and their Customers, so changing the club fitting industry is anything but easy



    The TXG guys is miles above this level, make no mistakes about that, but its still to much old myths and nonsense that keeps being recycled and reused, and im not so sure that the educational value is present, its more commercial and PR of their own Company, so take it for what it is.






    Howard, maybe it got lost in the post a bit but I'm going to have to call you on this one. I've been to TXG, my son works there. They have NUMEROUS shaft weights, lengths, and all of the different manufacturer head weights (i.e. for F9 they have 8g-18g, as an example), and each fitter has a scale at their desk for head weight measurement, along with a swingweight scale (both original and digital in the build shop). Just because Ian and Matt haven't done a video on head weights and total weight, doesn't mean they don't address it and don't understand it. As for the commercial part, I'll leave you to that, but name me one other group widely publishes easily accessible content such as their videos that is given in terms that are easy to understand and on an accessible platform? I can't think of one. Sure, you obviously know what you are talking about, but what you write is insanely complex. Yes, it's correct (or I assume it is because I don't really understand it in the way you write it --- it's over my head and I've been in the industry since the 80s), but your average player has no hope on God's green earth to understand it at that level that you do. To talk to someone about that, or make a video about that, is likely going to go way over their head. PR or not, they are helping dumb down a lot of content that gets confusing for the average player and helping them understand it in a simplified manner. There isn't anything wrong with that. Look at those "X for dummies" books...sure it's a marketing or PR move, but they are extremely successful because they take complex ideas and boil it down to the key criteria that are easy to understand for a wider audience.
    Cobra F8+, 10*, VA Composites Raijin 44 F2
    Cobra F8 3-4 wood 15.5*, VA Composites Raijin 44 F3

    Cobra F8 5-6 wood 17.5, Tensei Blue R
    Wilson Staff C300 4 hybrid, 21*, Fuji Pro 82 R
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    Ping Glide 1.0 55*, CFS Wedge flex

    T. Made Hi Toe 58*, KBS Hi Rev
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  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 10, 2019 1:21pm #59
    rgk5 wrote:


    wobgon wrote:

    wessnuts wrote:


    I enjoy the heck out of TXG's free content. As an avid golfer not allowed into Canada I have ZERO ambition to ever go to their facility for a fitting to "reward" them (with my hard earned cash) for their "marketing".



    But I still give them a TON of credit for putting in the work to create these videos.



    Yes maybe they're using the Youtube platform to build their brand but hey; that's what entrepeneurs have to do. That being said I don't think they're doing anything malicious to hoodwink the public.



    I've been "fit" improperly more times than I care to admit. That's why I follow the threads on this forum and watch Youtube videos. I don't take what anybody says as gospel. I accumulate as much knowledge as possible and see what works for me. This gives me the confidence to engage in conversation with the driving range pros and custom clubfitters I meet.



    Many of us golfers are trying to improve whether it be at an elite competitive level or just trying to win a closest to the pin in our weekly golf league (to help pay for the 19th hole!). Isn't that why we're on WRX?



    Anyways that's my selfish rant. Thanks for reading.



    You know what would be cool? Someone start a GoFundMe to send Howard to TXG. Get Ian & Matty to film that session!


    I'll donate if you start one to send the TXG crew to Howard.




    That could have been fun, i gave the Danish PGA system that challenge, put me side by side with the man they mean is their best club fitter and let us do a fitting on the same player and see where we ended up. Nobody wanted that challenge, i even gave them the benefit of using their fitting cart, and i would not even use a launch monitor (driver fitting), i would only bring a small case with tool for max 100 USD...its a big mistake thinking club fitting is about launch monitors, they are just helping tools we can do without, but that seems to be unknown in todays world where this numbers is rated higher than anything, but they dont even understand how to read them,...but they are the "holy numbers".



    The thing is, MOST club fitters are no good when it comes to the basics where it all starts, and im talking simple stuff like judging play length, total weight and weight distribution (balance NOT SW values), and ALL those places ive seen where i lived for 18 years (Denmark), there is NOT a single place who does anything what so ever with head weight during what they call a "fitting", and they dont have anything but standard play lengths....



    i held classes for this system i 2012, and showed them how a driver fitting should be done and why standard play lengths is no good...Tom Wishon did the same to them in 2016...They still offer noting but standard play lengths, and if you ask for s shorter club and extra weight for the head....YOU will have to take care of that yourself, they dont even have the weights in stock, and why would they when they dont care about head weight'?



    its seem like they reject what ever they was shown, or they still dont understand it...im not sure whats right, but it is STUPID when you know better, but like Ron White say...you cant fix stupid, and this system acts stupid since they dont change and use the knowledge they have been given for the benefit of them self and their Customers, so changing the club fitting industry is anything but easy



    The TXG guys is miles above this level, make no mistakes about that, but its still to much old myths and nonsense that keeps being recycled and reused, and im not so sure that the educational value is present, its more commercial and PR of their own Company, so take it for what it is.






    Howard, maybe it got lost in the post a bit but I'm going to have to call you on this one. I've been to TXG, my son works there. They have NUMEROUS shaft weights, lengths, and all of the different manufacturer head weights (i.e. for F9 they have 8g-18g, as an example), and each fitter has a scale at their desk for head weight measurement, along with a swingweight scale (both original and digital in the build shop). Just because Ian and Matt haven't done a video on head weights and total weight, doesn't mean they don't address it and don't understand it. As for the commercial part, I'll leave you to that, but name me one other group widely publishes easily accessible content such as their videos that is given in terms that are easy to understand and on an accessible platform? I can't think of one. Sure, you obviously know what you are talking about, but what you write is insanely complex. Yes, it's correct (or I assume it is because I don't really understand it in the way you write it --- it's over my head and I've been in the industry since the 80s), but your average player has no hope on God's green earth to understand it at that level that you do. To talk to someone about that, or make a video about that, is likely going to go way over their head. PR or not, they are helping dumb down a lot of content that gets confusing for the average player and helping them understand it in a simplified manner. There isn't anything wrong with that. Look at those "X for dummies" books...sure it's a marketing or PR move, but they are extremely successful because they take complex ideas and boil it down to the key criteria that are easy to understand for a wider audience.




    im sorry for your misunderstandings of what im writing, i did NOT address PXG when i was talking about places who dont care about head weight, those folks is close to where i have been living for 18 years, DENMARK, i though i made that clear.



    My research about lie angles is complex to explain and to understand for the average player, but we are on a tech board now, where quite a few is club makers and club fitters so that info was NOT meant for the average player at all, the only thing the average player would need to know here, is to drop the lie board and use those face labels who is self explaining and it cant be done easier than that, so there is no need to now what behind, thats for those with a deeper interest only.



    I dont blame TXG for anything, but that video of 18 minutes who DID NOT TELL about the ball marker test, widely known for at least 10-12 years, and thats is simply not good enough when lie angles was the subject for the movie, and they should also know that lie boards is the biggest crap tool ever invented, since its no way it can make the job right. Not even me who knows how to grind both irons and wedges from blanks and know how sole impact marks is moving is able to make it right with this tool so show me the one who is?



    A video of how to use the ball marker test would be 3-4 minutes. they spent more than 18 and did not even mention it, thats why i not impressed, i really think it was useless since they did NOT give the solution, so it ended up like a commercial for CG2 launch monitors



    There is no other way to judge this, why make a video of a issue you dont deliver the solution for? or was the solution to forget lie angles and use them to fix swing flaws instead?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    BrianMcG wrote:

    JCAG wrote:


    There has always been a running argument among club fitters as to does one simply fit the golfers' swing no matter the swing or does one try and correct the swing some?



    Harvey Penick said (sort of) if ones swing repeatedly get the job done, then leave the swing alone. Go back and watch video of Arnold Palmer's and Lee Trevino's swing. Horrible swings that got the job done year after year.




    Nobody alive that knows anything about golf thinks lee and Arnie had horrible swings. Just lol at that.




    Lee had a funny backswing, Arnie a funny looking follow through. They were both elite ball strikers in their era, no doubt about it. Arnie is very underrated, he gets so much credit for being "Arnie" that people forget how good he really was at one point in time.



    So that being said, my guess it they both had lie angles that fit their swing.

    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w, Ping G410 7 wood
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, Vokey M Grind 58
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Jones Utility
    ProV1x
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I play Ping irons.

    I static measure for green dot.

    I went for a fitting, with face tape.

    Picked a blue, yellow, and green dot. Hit shots with all.

    The yellow 1.5* up gave me the best contact on center and the most level line on the tape.

    Just tested the demo 7 iron but ordered the set, I like my SW and LW at standard.

    Happy with the results.



    You can make this difficult or simple, but for most players a simple face tape test will get you where you need to be pretty quickly.



    My BIG question is always length, I am 6' tall but am thinking I would like the short irons longer as I have shorter arms, a long torso and a bad back. Standing more upright eases the tension.



    What is the best way to fit for length?

    Ping G400
    Callaway Epic Flash 3w, Ping G410 7 wood
    Ping G 4-U
    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 54, Vokey M Grind 58
    Grips NDMC +4
    Odyssey Pro #1 black
    Jones Utility
    ProV1x
    ECCO Biom Hybrid 3

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