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Gender pay gap

Roadking2003Roadking2003 Advanced Members Posts: 4,914 ✭✭
edited March 11 in Tour Talk
Many just refuse to accept the fact that professional golf is an entertainment business. And just like making movies and writing books, your pay is determined by what the market thinks of your product. Regardless of what you think about the gender pay gap, it is market driven. The bottom line is that very few people watch women's professional golf and that's not likely to change in our lifetime.



Personally, I like to watch LPGA tournaments and would attend one if it were in my city.



"It’s hard to believe we just celebrated International Women’s Day yet the gender pay gap between men and women in European golf is as wide as ever.

Sadly, it doesn’t look as if it will narrow anytime soon, despite the best efforts of many."

"The R&A head is in a position to do something about it. His organization is responsible for the men’s and women’s British Opens. Prize money for both 2019 events hasn’t been announced, but last year’s men’s British Open carried a total pot of $10.25 million compared to $3.25 million for the Ricoh Women’s British Open.



In an ideal world, both tournaments would carry equal prize money. We’re a long way from that, as Slumbers admitted."





https://golfweek.com...-out-in-europe/





Is this guy from Mars? Why does anybody think "in an ideal world both tournaments would carry equal prize money"? Why is that even an objective?



Does he also think Tom Cruze and Lisa Edelstein should be paid the same to make a movie?
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Comments

  • moegolfer11moegolfer11 steal your face right off your head Advanced Members Posts: 2,184 ✭✭
    This should go over well...
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,214 ✭✭
    It’s math. Compare the revenue generated to the pay. If it’s out of line with any other group. Then raise the pay. If it isn’t then it doesn’t make sense to.





    Same argument going on in soccer.



    The only way US soccer can raise the women’s teams pay and retain the same bottom line is to take pay from the men’s teams. Is that fair ? Not if you only look at it from a business Lense. You pay more for more production . Production being defined here as revenue generation.
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  • proguyproguy Advanced Members Posts: 865 ✭✭
    Ratings! Plain and simple ladies.
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  • ZAPZAP ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 1,560
    I'm not sure but if you get to play a game for a living complaining about how much you get paid seems a bit off.

    When I was in a job that didn't pay enough I got a better one.
  • BiggErnBiggErn Advanced Members Posts: 1,984 ✭✭
    Something is worth what people are willing to pay for it. People aren’t gonna pay the same to watch the women as they are the men, it’s that simple. In a perfectly equal world there wouldn’t be separate tours but I doubt any want that.
  • cdnglfcdnglf Advanced Members Posts: 3,019 ✭✭
    edited March 11
    "Equal pay for equal work" is a woman winning the Open Championship.
  • ronstarsronstars #GetNaked Advanced Members Posts: 1,366 ✭✭
    LPGA, WNBA, etc... You want equal pay then play at the same level. If women were able to compete at the highest level in these sports with men, I'd be all in for equal pay for everyone. But the truth is, they can't.



    We see it periodically with an LPGA player attempting to 'make the cut' on the men's tour... it never ends well. If your best players, at their peak, are not able to make the cut, then that's a different level all together. It's like the minor league trying to play in the majors...Sorry, someone has to say it.
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  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Advanced Members Posts: 991 ✭✭
    At this point the LET players should be happy they still have a tour. If you can’t attract sponsors they money isn’t going to be there to pay the participants.



    Put a product out that people want and the money will come
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,214 ✭✭
    edited March 11
    In the end it’s the fans fault. People ( women especially ) do not pay the same to see women’s events. They don’t show up so to speak. Which means tickets are cheaper , advertising dollars don’t show up in the form of ads and sponsors. Etc.



    This topic irks me ( imagine that ) . Why ? Because it paints any person who says what I say as a “ male pig “ or as “ discriminatory towards women “. Which couldn’t be more patently false. My wife generally makes more money every year than I after the wash is done. And I’d do a cart wheel if she got a raise. And I have zero say so in her paycheck. Or the account it deposits into.



    I just don’t understand why anyone can’t see how this works ?



    Again. Show me a percentage discrepancy between revenue generated and actual pay vs the men’s tours etc and I’d jump on the women’s team in a second.
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  • Anchor44Anchor44 Advanced Members Posts: 892
    I personally dont watch women's sports. The only time I want to see a woman sweat is if she's on a stripper pole under hot lights.
  • SoMoneyMuchWinSoMoneyMuchWin Members Posts: 30
    There just isn't the same demand and revenue generation. LPGA tour events can be fun to watch, but they are a minor league tour compared to the PGA tour. One way to raise their pay would be to get more women interested in golf and supporting the LPGA and other women's tours. If we completely ignored gender and solely had tours based on skill, then what kind of money would these ladies be making? It's like this just about every sport. There are men who are better than professional women, who aren't getting paid nearly as much despite being better at their respective sports. So in many sports women actually benefit from the gender separated leagues.
  • tatertottatertot Advanced Members Posts: 4,226 ✭✭


    Many just refuse to accept the fact that professional golf is an entertainment business. And just like making movies and writing books, your pay is determined by what the market thinks of your product. Regardless of what you think about the gender pay gap, it is market driven. The bottom line is that very few people watch women's professional golf and that's not likely to change in our lifetime.



    Personally, I like to watch LPGA tournaments and would attend one if it were in my city.



    "It’s hard to believe we just celebrated International Women’s Day yet the gender pay gap between men and women in European golf is as wide as ever.

    Sadly, it doesn’t look as if it will narrow anytime soon, despite the best efforts of many."

    "The R&A head is in a position to do something about it. His organization is responsible for the men’s and women’s British Opens. Prize money for both 2019 events hasn’t been announced, but last year’s men’s British Open carried a total pot of $10.25 million compared to $3.25 million for the Ricoh Women’s British Open.



    In an ideal world, both tournaments would carry equal prize money. We’re a long way from that, as Slumbers admitted."





    https://golfweek.com...-out-in-europe/





    Is this guy from Mars? Why does anybody think "in an ideal world both tournaments would carry equal prize money"? Why is that even an objective?



    Does he also think Tom Cruze and Lisa Edelstein should be paid the same to make a movie?




    In an ideal world, both tournaments would have equal galleries and equal TV revenue, which would allow them to have equal prize money. Pretty simple economics.
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  • GolfChannelGolfChannel Advanced Members Posts: 1,581 ✭✭
    proguy wrote:


    Ratings! Plain and simple ladies.




    Not that plain and hardly that simple.



    If you think you can logic an issue this complex down to a one-sentence response it's really not that hard to believe why this country is so divided.
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  • dlygrissedlygrisse Advanced Members Posts: 12,941 ✭✭
    There is no gender pay gap. If a woman wants to compete at the highest level they they could do so. All they got to do is qualify and win the prize money. As it is, they are playing on tours that don't pay as much, because they aren't good enough to play at a higher level. If you went off pure skill, the LPGA is probably over paid. Almost every other tour in the world possess more talent. The web.com, Champions, Asian, and Euro tour players would smoke them all day every day head to head.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,214 ✭✭
    Anchor44 wrote:


    I personally dont watch women's sports. The only time I want to see a woman sweat is if she's on a stripper pole under hot lights.




    This. This is why we can’t have an intelligent discussion about this topic.
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  • tatertottatertot Advanced Members Posts: 4,226 ✭✭
    edited March 11

    proguy wrote:


    Ratings! Plain and simple ladies.




    Not that plain and hardly that simple.



    If you think you can logic an issue this complex down to a one-sentence response it's really not that hard to believe why this country is so divided.




    Why? Golf is entertainment ... if you put butts in the seats, you will be paid. Pro tennis has equal pay in the majors because they run concurrently, and the women draw as many spectators as the men, if not more, and you can't tell which is outdrawing which for any specific event.



    In movies, the headliner pulls the audience in, man or woman, and they should be paid accordingly.



    Sometimes, things are that simple.
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  • BiggErnBiggErn Advanced Members Posts: 1,984 ✭✭

    proguy wrote:


    Ratings! Plain and simple ladies.




    Not that plain and hardly that simple.



    If you think you can logic an issue this complex down to a one-sentence response it's really not that hard to believe why this country is so divided.




    It’s not complex either. There’s better products available that people will pay more to watch. Like someone said they aren’t prevented from competing at the highest level they just can’t so they are given a segregated tour to play. I wouldn’t complain too much as most women’s tours barley keep their head above water financially.
  • tatertottatertot Advanced Members Posts: 4,226 ✭✭
    dlygrisse wrote:


    There is no gender pay gap. If a woman wants to compete at the highest level they they could do so. All they got to do is qualify and win the prize money. As it is, they are playing on tours that don't pay as much, because they aren't good enough to play at a higher level. If you went off pure skill, the LPGA is probably over paid. Almost every other tour in the world possess more talent. The web.com, Champions, Asian, and Euro tour players would smoke them all day every day head to head.




    You don't get out much, do you?
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  • SixcatSixcat Advanced Members Posts: 1,409 ✭✭
    The PGA generates about $1 Billion in yearly revenue according to Owler. The LPGA generates about $18.4 Million.



    Nothing else needs to be said!
  • JaNelson38JaNelson38 Advanced Members Posts: 2,600
    edited March 11
    cdnglf wrote:


    "Equal pay for equal work" is a woman winning the Open Championship.




    This is the correct take. Nothing is preventing a woman to enter a PGA Tour event....they can try and qualify just like anyone else. Lots of different ways to do it.



    The problem here is that those pushing this agenda are using the term "equality" as a vehicle to get more money. Its not about "equality"....there's nothing preventing a woman from golfing professionally. But all entertainment entities are different, and they are all supported by what the paying public thinks of their product.



    I'd also like to hear the reaction from the ladies if a professional male golfer wants to enter an LPGA event and used "equality" as the reason why.



    Its all about money. It has nothing to do with equality.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day.... Advanced Members Posts: 24,214 ✭✭
    Sixcat wrote:


    The PGA generates about $1 Billion in yearly revenue according to Owler. The LPGA generates about $18.4 Million.



    Nothing else needs to be said!




    Yes. Just how many million dollar pieces of pie do they think can be cut from $18 million?
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  • SixcatSixcat Advanced Members Posts: 1,409 ✭✭

    Sixcat wrote:


    The PGA generates about $1 Billion in yearly revenue according to Owler. The LPGA generates about $18.4 Million.



    Nothing else needs to be said!




    Yes. Just how many million dollar pieces of pie do they think can be cut from $18 million?




    They could easily generate equal pay events as compared to the PGA Tour. They would only have two events per year but they could pull it off.
  • tjl48tjl48 Advanced Members Posts: 172 ✭✭
    Reminds me of the womens soccer argument. The women do better against their competition so they should make at least as much as the men. They seem to ignore things like the following:



    "This years figures have not been released, but four years ago the Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million. The 2010 Men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion. Those players got $348 million, or 9 percent of the total revenue. The women's team got a higher percentage with 13 percent, but the bottom line was still much less, $10 million."
  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Advanced Members Posts: 4,181 ✭✭


    It's math. Compare the revenue generated to the pay. If it's out of line with any other group. Then raise the pay. If it isn't then it doesn't make sense to.





    Same argument going on in soccer.



    The only way US soccer can raise the women's teams pay and retain the same bottom line is to take pay from the men's teams. Is that fair ? Not if you only look at it from a business Lense. You pay more for more production . Production being defined here as revenue generation.




    Or results.



    Women's team: world champions



    Men's team: can't beat the Bahamas





    The women's team shouldn't be paid the same as the men's, they should be paid more.
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  • 360_CS360_CS Advanced Members Posts: 4,252
    Sixcat wrote:


    The PGA generates about $1 Billion in yearly revenue according to Owler. The LPGA generates about $18.4 Million.



    Nothing else needs to be said!




    Do you know what percentage of the revenue goes to the winnings of each tour?
  • tatertottatertot Advanced Members Posts: 4,226 ✭✭



    It's math. Compare the revenue generated to the pay. If it's out of line with any other group. Then raise the pay. If it isn't then it doesn't make sense to.





    Same argument going on in soccer.



    The only way US soccer can raise the women's teams pay and retain the same bottom line is to take pay from the men's teams. Is that fair ? Not if you only look at it from a business Lense. You pay more for more production . Production being defined here as revenue generation.




    Or results.



    Women's team: world champions



    Men's team: can't beat the Bahamas





    The women's team shouldn't be paid the same as the men's, they should be paid more.




    When you talk about soccer ... how much REVENUE did each team bring in? If the USWNT brought in more, than they should be paid more.
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  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Advanced Members Posts: 4,181 ✭✭
    I suspect at some point the USGA and R&A will be "encouraged" to pay the same purses for the men's and women's opens. They will probably have to do it with sponsors that will pay across both championships. For instance, a sponsor pays $5,000,000 to put commercials in both tournaments and the money gets added equally to both purses. The tv side is already set for the USGA as Fox pays for the entire USGA package.
    swing is irrelevant, score is everything

    just say NO.... to practice swings
  • GolfnutgalenGolfnutgalen Advanced Members Posts: 2,393 ✭✭
    edited March 11
    The winner of the Ladies British Open last year won $490,000, Jack Nicklaus won $92,450 in his final Open win in 1978, Greg Norman won $270,236 in his final major in 1993, and Annika $354,958 in 2003. All of those figures are adjusted to inflation. I just mentioned this because a common argument is that Women should earn as much if they play as well as the men. In this case they are earning more. They also have more prize money than the men's senior tour which again is composed of better players (IMO). Their first place winnings in the Senior Open was $268,814 last year.
  • tjl48tjl48 Advanced Members Posts: 172 ✭✭
    edited March 11


    I suspect at some point the USGA and R&A will be "encouraged" to pay the same purses for the men's and women's opens. They will probably have to do it with sponsors that will pay across both championships. For instance, a sponsor pays $5,000,000 to put commercials in both tournaments and the money gets added equally to both purses. The tv side is already set for the USGA as Fox pays for the entire USGA package.




    Encouraged by who? And how is that fair for the men or the sponsors?



    That is always the flaw with these equal pay arguments in sports. If women got paid equal to men that wouldn't be equality. They don't bring in as much so they don't get paid as much. Why should this be different than say a commission paid job. Doesn't matter if you are a man or woman. You get the same cut as what you bring in.
  • Darth PutterDarth Putter Advanced Members Posts: 4,181 ✭✭
    tjl48 wrote:



    I suspect at some point the USGA and R&A will be "encouraged" to pay the same purses for the men's and women's opens. They will probably have to do it with sponsors that will pay across both championships. For instance, a sponsor pays $5,000,000 to put commercials in both tournaments and the money gets added equally to both purses. The tv side is already set for the USGA as Fox pays for the entire USGA package.




    Encouraged by who? And how is that fair for the men or the sponsors?




    And that answer lies beyond the "NO POLITICS" ruling of the forum.
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    just say NO.... to practice swings
  • ctsgolfctsgolf Members Posts: 37



    It's math. Compare the revenue generated to the pay. If it's out of line with any other group. Then raise the pay. If it isn't then it doesn't make sense to.





    Same argument going on in soccer.



    The only way US soccer can raise the women's teams pay and retain the same bottom line is to take pay from the men's teams. Is that fair ? Not if you only look at it from a business Lense. You pay more for more production . Production being defined here as revenue generation.




    Or results.



    Women's team: world champions



    Men's team: can't beat the Bahamas





    The women's team shouldn't be paid the same as the men's, they should be paid more.




    That is, until the woman's team plays the men's team from the Bahamas.
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  • buckeye440buckeye440 Members Posts: 72



    It's math. Compare the revenue generated to the pay. If it's out of line with any other group. Then raise the pay. If it isn't then it doesn't make sense to.





    Same argument going on in soccer.



    The only way US soccer can raise the women's teams pay and retain the same bottom line is to take pay from the men's teams. Is that fair ? Not if you only look at it from a business Lense. You pay more for more production . Production being defined here as revenue generation.




    Or results.



    Women's team: world champions



    Men's team: can't beat the Bahamas





    The women's team shouldn't be paid the same as the men's, they should be paid more.




    Results? Have the Men and Women teams play each other. If we are talking about equal pay, we should talk about equal results, right?
  • buckeye440buckeye440 Members Posts: 72


    "The R&A head is in a position to do something about it. His organization is responsible for the men’s and women’s British Opens. Prize money for both 2019 events hasn’t been announced, but last year’s men’s British Open carried a total pot of $10.25 million compared to $3.25 million for the Ricoh Women’s British Open.



    In an ideal world, both tournaments would carry equal prize money. We’re a long way from that, as Slumbers admitted."




    I would bet that the Women are actually getting paid more than the men based on revenue/profit generated. Thus the women are more than likely over paid. If it was not for the NBA, the WNBA would have folded years ago.
  • EdEdEdEd Members Posts: 29
    The solution is pretty simple actually. Just get rid of all the woman's sports league and have 1 league for both male and female (NBA, NHL, PGA, Tennis, etc). Then the pay will be equal based on their ability. Just like at my industry where I compete with both men and women for promotion, jobs opening etc.



    It is actually pretty ironic that women are asking for equal pay all across sports thinking that equal pay = equality. Equality doesn't mean equal pay. It means everyone should be on a level playing field, meaning the best players (or players who bring in the most revenue for the owners) will be paid the most. It is actually funny how there was an ad campaign about WNBA players asking for more pay when their whole league is subsidized by NBA and is a losing league year after year.
  • tatertottatertot Advanced Members Posts: 4,226 ✭✭
    buckeye440 wrote:




    It's math. Compare the revenue generated to the pay. If it's out of line with any other group. Then raise the pay. If it isn't then it doesn't make sense to.





    Same argument going on in soccer.



    The only way US soccer can raise the women's teams pay and retain the same bottom line is to take pay from the men's teams. Is that fair ? Not if you only look at it from a business Lense. You pay more for more production . Production being defined here as revenue generation.




    Or results.



    Women's team: world champions



    Men's team: can't beat the Bahamas





    The women's team shouldn't be paid the same as the men's, they should be paid more.




    Results? Have the Men and Women teams play each other. If we are talking about equal pay, we should talk about equal results, right?




    So maybe the Ohio State football coaching staff and the faculty of the college of Arts and Sciences should compete in an Academic Bowl, with the winner getting the higher salary?



    Men and women's soccer are totally different ... their pay, like any occupation, should be based on the revenue they generate for their respective employer.
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This discussion has been closed.