What really matters, physics or feel

juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,705 ✭✭
I was prompted to write this by a professional instructor who wrote these words:



"They can be good teachers but also have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to physics and gravity. I have no clue why you don’t understand that.

They can disagree all they want, and they’d be wrong. Doesn’t mean they are bad teachers, but it does mean their explanations of “why” is wrong even if the what might help some players" .



So the question is, what is more important, knowing the feel of a good swing, or knowing what is actually happening from a physics point of view?.



It seems to me that most of the great players who ever lived had no clue about physics and gravity, yet they were great players. No measuring devices existed when they became great.



On the other hand I have no idea how one would apply a knowledge of physics and gravity to the problem of hitting a high draw when you really need one. Seems that you do with feel, not physics.



Discuss.



Steve
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Comments

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard Members Posts: 2,076 ✭✭
    Feel changes day to day, swing to swing. Physics doesn't change.



    You can try to give students different feels to accomplish what they are after.



    If you have no knowledge of physics, you'll have to dig it out of the dirt till you find out what works.
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  • mokedaddymokedaddy Members Posts: 1,242 ✭✭
    Not everyone learns or even interprets information the same way so it depends on the person.
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  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,300 ✭✭
    I would say that it certainly does not hurt for the teacher to know the physics piece but it is not absolutely necessary either. The ability to communicate the desired change in a way that penetrates my mind and gets to the body and the swing is what I need to improve.



    The question reminds me of a few years ago when the new "ball flight laws" were just starting to be taught and discussed. The number of guys that gleefully posted their vast knowledge of these laws and how Jack and company had no clue.



    Give me a feel for how to make the ball do what I want, one that I know if I do it properly the ball will act accordingly and I am set.
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  • wagsgtwagsgt Members Posts: 543 ✭✭
    edited Mar 12, 2019 5:47pm #5
    Well physics matter. There are laws,,,



    Feel can be anything. I can feel something completely different than you or use an opposite swing thought but the results/physics could be the same



    Also depends on what type of learner you are. I’m an engineer type so I want to know what’s going on. A lot of times I’ll understand it and know what needs to happen but can’t do it. So I need a new feel/thought/drill



    Also you are cherry picking using Jack. They also didn’t have the technology we do. You don’t realize just how good elite players are. But a lot of younger generation know more about what’s going on
  • wkuo3wkuo3 RELEASE Members Posts: 3,800 ✭✭
    Human body is not a piece of precision machinery.



    The difference between a champion and someone just making cut is carried above their shoulders. All of the Tour caliber golfers all have the basic tools, long off the tee and laser actuate within 170 yards..... so even if one could dissect the golf swing in small pieces and "explain" the way they think fit, it does not mean they could execute the knowledge each and every time.



    It's been agreed that the most difficult thing to explain is the "feel" in a golf swing.



    Why would a golfer wants to understand all the physics behind a golf swing, if a desired result is achieved? This is so typical of the millennium generation, maybe my friend was right, the A.I. will and should take over.
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,300 ✭✭
    edited Mar 12, 2019 6:05pm #7
    wagsgt wrote:


    Well physics matter. There are laws,,,



    Feel can be anything. I can feel something completely different than you or use an opposite swing thought but the results/physics could be the same



    Also depends on what type of learner you are. I'm an engineer type so I want to know what's going on. A lot of times I'll understand it and know what needs to happen but can't do it. So I need a new feel/thought/drill



    Also you are cherry picking using Jack. They also didn't have the technology we do. You don't realize just how good elite players are. But a lot of younger generation know more about what's going on
    I am guessing that was directed at me as I am the one that mentioned Jack and company. It is nice to "know what's going on" with ball flight laws and such but if you cannot make the ball do what is desired "so what"? The older generation made the ball curve by aining our feet at the desired starting line and the face at the resulting target. And that is just wrong say all of those knowledgeable about the new ball flight laws. But guess what? IT WORKED! So what if that was not what really happened? The ball went where we wanted it to which is what matters. If handicaps were going down from this vast store of knowledge I would be impressed. There is something to be said being able to repeat an action based on how it feels rather than the science behind it. As I mentioned earlier there is nothing inherently wrong with the knowledge but you still need to be able to transmit that information to your body.



    Edited to add. You are an engineer so need to know the why and what and then need more feels? So you agree with my statement that is what the teacher needs to do-communicate.
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,601 ✭✭
    Why wouldn’t you want both? Someone who can explain exactly what you should do and get you to feel what you need to feel while also understanding what is actually happening.



    And I’d tell them that if they don’t understand physics then don’t try use the language to try and sound smarter. Nobody would argue if they simply said feel this or in my opinion this is what you should do



    When they actively try to explain things using physics as their basis for teaching something, and try to use “its science” to justify their preferences, you better actually get the science right. And if you try to use science terms for credibility and your explanation is 100% inaccurate expect to get called out for it. You can’t try to use science to back claims and then get the science wrong and expect that to be ok.



    You’d get zero argument if you just said thus is what I believe based on years of experience. Keep the science out if it if you don’t understand what you’re talking about. Again Steve, I don’t understand why this is hard for your understand. I won’t argue about anyone’s opinion on the golf swing, even if I disagree with it, but don’t try to add credibility by being full of **** and making things up.
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,501 ClubWRX
    I think it is important to know swing mechanics and understand basic physics principles as they apply to golf. I think an instructor needs to know the same. All that being said, ultimately you will need to use feel as a means of producing the correct swing mechanics. Feeling your body, hands, and the clubface during the swing are important feedback mechanisms telling you that your swing mechanics are sound. Essentially it comes down to when my swing feels like X, it will produce the desired swing mechanics Y, resulting in a successful shot Z. Instructors, video, mirrors, training aids, etc... help connect X to Y. Physics defines the Y (multiple Ys - we have a non-unique mapping here) necessary to produce Z and describes Z in all its gory detail (spin, velocity, trajectory, etc...).
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  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,300 ✭✭
    iteach,

    I would agree with that completely. Personally I do not need or want the physics lesson but some will feel the need to have it taught to them. I believe it CAN BE valuable for the teacher to know but his communicate is job one. I just want to know if I do this the ball does that.
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,601 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:


    iteach,

    I would agree with that completely. Personally I do not need or want the physics lesson but some will feel the need to have it taught to them. I believe it CAN BE valuable for the teacher to know but his communicate is job one. I just want to know if I do this the ball does that.


    Student never needs to understand physics involved. Like I said, if you don’t want your science picked apart don’t try to use science to boost credibility and explain your teachings. Keep it to just feels.



    My problem is the guys who try to use science to sound smart and they get the science completely wrong, and even after being told it’s completely wrong they continue to use the same bad science to attempt to backup their claims.
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,300 ✭✭
    iteachgolf wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:


    iteach,

    I would agree with that completely. Personally I do not need or want the physics lesson but some will feel the need to have it taught to them. I believe it CAN BE valuable for the teacher to know but his communicate is job one. I just want to know if I do this the ball does that.


    Student never needs to understand physics involved. Like I said, if you don't want your science picked apart don't try to use science to boost credibility and explain your teachings. Keep it to just feels.



    My problem is the guys who try to use science to sound smart and they get the science completely wrong, and even after being told it's completely wrong they continue to use the same bad science to attempt to backup their claims.
    That is fine-I didn't argue with your point at all.


    I'll put this another way on Dan's point.



    Do you want your significant other to be hot or not crazy?



    Ideally you'd like to have both and everyone given one choice would differ on one over the other.



    .,.but don't try and tell me your hot stripper girlfriend, who has tried to stab you twice, is chill and you have a unicorn.



    http://youtube.com/w...ncSwssUyp4#menu
    I will take the hot and not crazy. But I don't need a psychiatrist note stating her sanity. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    WITB
    Tools for the job!

    To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened . :)

    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,191 ✭✭
    Physics, because feel isnt real.



    Do the physics need to be explained on lesson tee? Absolutely not (unless the student prefers/benefits from it), but understanding fundamentally what is really going on just means the teacher will likely be more effective at communicating the appropriate feels/drills/concepts to make measurable changes.



    The golf swing is already difficult and counter-intuitive enough. Feels that are fundamentally incorrect need to be explained as such, otherwise they are likely just a quick band-aid and could ultimately be detrimental if the student decides to go down the rabbit hole of applying more and more feel.
  • wagsgtwagsgt Members Posts: 543 ✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:

    wagsgt wrote:


    Well physics matter. There are laws,,,



    Feel can be anything. I can feel something completely different than you or use an opposite swing thought but the results/physics could be the same



    Also depends on what type of learner you are. I'm an engineer type so I want to know what's going on. A lot of times I'll understand it and know what needs to happen but can't do it. So I need a new feel/thought/drill



    Also you are cherry picking using Jack. They also didn't have the technology we do. You don't realize just how good elite players are. But a lot of younger generation know more about what's going on
    I am guessing that was directed at me as I am the one that mentioned Jack and company. It is nice to "know what's going on" with ball flight laws and such but if you cannot make the ball do what is desired "so what"? The older generation made the ball curve by aining our feet at the desired starting line and the face at the resulting target. And that is just wrong say all of those knowledgeable about the new ball flight laws. But guess what? IT WORKED! So what if that was not what really happened? The ball went where we wanted it to which is what matters. If handicaps were going down from this vast store of knowledge I would be impressed. There is something to be said being able to repeat an action based on how it feels rather than the science behind it. As I mentioned earlier there is nothing inherently wrong with the knowledge but you still need to be able to transmit that information to your body.



    Edited to add. You are an engineer so need to know the why and what and then need more feels? So you agree with my statement that is what the teacher needs to do-communicate.


    I like to know the why and what because it helps me see the overall picture. And then be able to understand what is causing a certain miss(physics)



    I don’t think anyone is saying feels don’t matter. If a feel works and you are comfortable with your game then sure you don’t need to know physics behind it if you don’t want. But that doesn’t mean they don’t matter or don’t exist. Maybe you are turned off by people who talk very scientific and can't teach. Not sure how you could judge if you haven’t had a lesson with them or seen successful players they have helped.



  • dj*dj* Members Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Ninety percent of the game is half mental.
  • BKN1964BKN1964 Members Posts: 956 ✭✭
    edited Mar 12, 2019 8:56pm #17
    I personally don't need my instructor to know the physics. I just want them to help me solve my golf problem. They could completely leave physics out of the conversation, but if they say something about it that's completely wrong it's a pretty big distraction for me, if not a complete credibility wrecker.



    I had one instructor still using the old ball flight laws, and another talked about a thin strike putting forward spin on the ball (I'm pretty sure that's not accurate, but I'll let you guys correct me if I'm wrong).
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • J2puttsJ2putts Members Posts: 604 ✭✭
    Playing off feel but knowing what the mechanics are that create that feel . So when things ultimately and inevitably go bad you have the understanding of how to check thru your mechanics to get back on track . If all you know is feel ...you can find yourself spending a long time to get your swing back on track .
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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,029 ✭✭
    I think the best instructors know both. They understand the science (even if it'sjust on a conceptual level), and they know how to convey to their students the feel or feels that will be corrective for the given fault. Consider that the science remains constant, but the effective feels will likely vary and be different from player to player, even those attempting to correct the same fault.



    As a player I like to know the science as it gives me conviction, but ultimately feels are what help me improve and play my best.
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  • FadeFade Members Posts: 1,123 ✭✭
    Most humans, or even animals, have a clue about gravity.
  • ShilgyShilgy Members Posts: 11,300 ✭✭
    edited Mar 12, 2019 9:21pm #21
    dpb5031 wrote:


    I think the best instructors know both. They understand the science (even if it'sjust on a conceptual level), and they know how to convey to their students the feel or feels that will be corrective for the given fault. Consider that the science remains constant, but the effective feels will likely vary and be different from player to player, even those attempting to correct the same fault.



    As a player I like to know the science as it gives me conviction, but ultimately feels are what help me improve and play my best.
    The odd thing is that the science has not remained constant.

    Edit, I take it back. The science is constant but our knowledge of it is ever evolving.
    WITB
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    Game is recovering from total ankle replacement. Getting there and glad to be pain free!
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,501 ClubWRX
    Fade wrote:


    Most humans, or even animals, have a clue about gravity.


    Certainly think we could all agree that cats have a fundamental understanding of gravity. They also have deep knowledge of quantum mechanics given their almost universal participation in many traditional thought experiments. Given this intuitive level of physics insight I think it highly likely that a "theory of everything" should be forthcoming in the near future from a cat.
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  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard Members Posts: 2,076 ✭✭

    Fade wrote:


    Most humans, or even animals, have a clue about gravity.


    Certainly think we could all agree that cats have a fundamental understanding of gravity. They also have deep knowledge of quantum mechanics given their almost universal participation in many traditional thought experiments. Given this intuitive level of physics insight I think it highly likely that a "theory of everything" should be forthcoming in the near future from a cat.




    Only if it survives Schrodinger opening the box.
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  • TheGoochTheGooch Members Posts: 86 ✭✭
    Feel > Physics for pure enjoyment of the game.
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  • Terry GoldTerry Gold Members Posts: 474 ✭✭

    False dichotomy. It's presumptuous for teachers to speak for the students, let alone claiming that they simply don't need the science. Why?
    I will ask questions that relate the feel to the physics that manifested the change. Some of us know better so it's the teachers that should tread lightly when they employ all the ball flight angles and scientific terms in the name of physics that got us there.

  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,024 ✭✭

    Results matter, good golf shots and holed putts. All the rest is secondary. From a student standpoint, we all learn differently. Some want to know swing mechanics details and physics, some don't, but almost all of us learn through feels, and those often come from instructors. I'd prefer my instructor to have more knowledge rather than less, and I prefer for him to be correct in what he "knows", but in the end he's going to be describing feels to accomplish the desired changes. Again, results matter, so if an instructor helps you, but doesn't study motion capture analyses or foot plate stuff, that's fine, he's helped you. Results matter.

  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,024 ✭✭

    @LASSIEGOHOME said:

    @davep043 said:
    Results matter, good golf shots and holed putts. All the rest is secondary. From a student standpoint, we all learn differently. Some want to know swing mechanics details and physics, some don't, but almost all of us learn through feels, and those often come from instructors. I'd prefer my instructor to have more knowledge rather than less, and I prefer for him to be correct in what he "knows", but in the end he's going to be describing feels to accomplish the desired changes. Again, results matter, so if an instructor helps you, but doesn't study motion capture analyses or foot plate stuff, that's fine, he's helped you. Results matter.

    How would one know that an instructor has a good knowledge of physics unless one was also knowledgeable in physics? Also if someone's anatomy was unable to meet the theoretically correct 'Physics' mechanics what happens next? Where does that leave the teacher and pupil? Does the teacher try other things to get the pupil as close as possible to meet the 'correct' mechanics with his limited anatomy or just 'wing it' using trial and error?
    Teaching by feel seems a bit obscure. What exactly are you proposing a specific feel for? To try and match some force/pressure 'feel' to correlate with some theoretically correct 'Physics/golf mechanics' ?
    We already have 2 sets of 'experts' at loggerheads with each other. One group promotes a 'drag loading' type mechanics, while the other says you are just holding onto the grip because the clubhead is moving too fast from an angular velocity perspective. That all you would be trying to do is minimize any restriction to the clubhead speed through impact. I could imagine both 'theories' might require different 'feels' to try and ingrain the 'correct' mechanics, but which one is correct?

    I'm not going to discuss drag loading or any other type of jargon, mostly because I've never studied these instructors enough to understand what they're trying to say. What I know, what physics tells me, is that the clubhead will not go from a virtual standstill to over 100 mph unless the player applies significant forces at the grip. I want my instructor to understand that simple physical truth, along with a few more. That doesn't mean that the player needs to try to feel like he's applying a lot of force, or that the instructor should even talk about applying forces at the grip, a totally different approach may be the best way for him to help the player to succeed.

  • Forged4everForged4ever To See A Man’s True Character, Play Golf With Him The Burgh/Hdcp: My gene poolClubWRX Posts: 15,614 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 31, 2019 12:24am #28

    I can only speak of one of the 2-3 Greatest Players to ever plant the peg and he wasn’t kiddin when he said that the golf swing was simple arithmetic and not trigonometry, lol

    Neither Sam, nor his Bro Pete, who taught him how to swing as a kid and was the only “Teacher” that he ever had and the only Man that he went to to have his swing looked at his last 28+ years on earth, used any type of physics, biomechanics or trigonometry, lolol, when speaking to or Teaching someone about the golf swing. Did they understand the physics of the golf swing? I’m sure that Pete did only from the standpoint of being able to discuss the swing with some of the idiots that he encountered at their meetings/seminars.

    Sam?

    I seriously doubt it and the reason that I say this is because while Pete taught me the physical swing and game, and yea, he influenced my mental game from a focus and drive standpoint, however I watched and spoke to Sam for over 25+ years about the mental side and what thoughts that he kept in his head(FWIW, that holdin a bird 🐦 tight enough to hold it but not tight enough to squeeze it was bulls***, even though he did say it, lol. If he gripped your hand like he did a club, and I had him do it myriad times, trust me here Gents, it was tighter than that, lol) and he did not “clutter” his mind with extraneous superfluous and/or irrelevant information and I can’t remember the number of times that he got up from the table when guys were having swing debates and I asked him one time why he didn’t throw his “.02 worth” in and he laughed and replied that he didn’t have enough swing knowledge to fill a shot glass but he could swing a club under pressure AND Teach someone else to swing a club under pressure better than any of the Pros at the old Golf Digest Teachers’ Summit, which was the “Who’s Who” of the Top Teaching Pros in the 70’s & 80’s and of which he was a member, so why would he argue with a bunch of “chops in this town,” lolol, referring to Pittsburgh.

    One, these were not chops in the literal sense as they were excellent Local Teaching Pros and top Ams, and and secondly, two of the Pros who used to sit at that table and throw that stuff out there are internationally prominent and renowned Teaching Pros today, one who was the tip of the spear regarding introducing/using video for lessons while he was at Oakmont, and no, it wasn’t Bob Ford.

    So, bottom line is, at least for me, if the Guy/Gal can help you groove a consistent swing that you can execute under pressure, then they’re your guy/gal.

    If not, I’d suggest that ya look for someone else😉

    Whether or not they use simple jargon to convey their thoughts or combine a golf lesson with a physics/biomechanics class is purely up to you as to what it takes for you to ingrain that swing under pressure.

    For me?

    KISS

    When s*** hit the fan and I was goin sideways, I didn’t want to have to “go deep” to right myself.

    Put it this way~

    If I needed guidance in the locker room prior to a major match, I’d take a Pete Snead all day every day 7/365 & 24/7 in case there’s any doubt, versus a Sean Foley.

    Plus, I’d never ever lay claim to even knowin a lil guy runnin around the course with a **** video recorder strapped to his chest, much less have him as my Teacher🤪

    WTF???

    As always, just my .03 worth

    Cheers🍻
    RP

    Post edited by Forged4ever on
    In the end, only three things matter~ <br /><br />How much that you loved...<br /><br />How mightily that you lived...<br /><br />How gracefully that you accepted both victory & defeat...<br /><br /><br /><br />GHIN: Beefeater 24
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