Finally, we can put the hinge and hold Mickelson **** to bed

elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 125 ✭✭




this should end the debate for good. he really does NOT hinge and hold on most of his chips/pitches. take it from the man himself.
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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,170 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 11:10am #2
    Absolutely love Phil but H&H is a disaster for me, especially off wet turf because my leading edge is likely to lay a 8 inch long pile of sod over my ball.



    Use the bounce method all day long. Super forgiving.... Maybe it's not as "****" as a low checker, but it works way better for us mere mortals.
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker Members Posts: 5,165 ✭✭
    Z1ggy16 wrote:


    Absolutely love Phil but H&H is a disaster for me, especially off wet turf because my leading edge is likely to lay a 8 inch long pile of sod over my ball.



    Use the bounce method all day long. Super forgiving.... Maybe it's not as "****" as a low checker, but it works way better for us mere mortals.




    Agreed.
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  • dwbostondwboston Lefty Boomers Posts: 2,318 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 11:22am #4
    elthrill wrote:


    https://www.instagra.../p/BtzPyL5g6dL/



    this should end the debate for good. he really does NOT hinge and hold on most of his chips/pitches. take it from the man himself.




    It's a bad description of his method. He absolutely uses the bounce (in the H&H videos at least), he just doesn't let the clubhead pass his hands at the low point of the swing - he releases the wrist set but maintains a straight line from the upper arm to the clubhead in the forward swing. He really should have come up with a better description of it - the "hold" part introduced a bad image for most people.
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  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 125 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 11:19am #5
    ebrasmus21 wrote:

    Z1ggy16 wrote:


    Absolutely love Phil but H&H is a disaster for me, especially off wet turf because my leading edge is likely to lay a 8 inch long pile of sod over my ball.



    Use the bounce method all day long. Super forgiving.... Maybe it's not as "****" as a low checker, but it works way better for us mere mortals.




    Agreed.




    as monte has argued many times....phil himself does not hinge and hold very often at all. you have to release the clubhead to hit consistent chips. hinge and hold was really a bad mental image and sent a ton of golfers down a bad path. i tried it once and scrapped it immediately and went back to my own gumbo of cowan/ sieckmann/utley method. the one thing i universally agree with phil on that is a little different from utley/sieckmann is you want almost 100% of weight on the lead leg.
  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 125 ✭✭
    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day. if it works for you, cool. but ive seen more balls rocket across the green with that image that any other. I think the best starting point for most people is Pete FVCKING Cowen and get that shaft in line with the arms and start with a simple putting stroke using PW,9 iron with the weight on the lead leg. thats the safest, most reliable, simplest way to start chipping for most people.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 7,143 ✭✭
    This is another example of a “feel” that isn’t exactly what is going on.



    A “feel” vs. reality Comes up all the time in the instruction threads
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  • MPStratMPStrat Members Posts: 942 ClubWRX
    elthrill wrote:


    https://www.instagra.../p/BtzPyL5g6dL/



    this should end the debate for good. he really does NOT hinge and hold on most of his chips/pitches. take it from the man himself.




    "Back foot restore" sounds a bit different than "there is only one way to chip and that's using the hinge and hold method"
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,010 ✭✭


    This is another example of a “feel” that isn’t exactly what is going on.



    A “feel” vs. reality Comes up all the time in the instruction threads


    And I think the feel vs real dichotomy is most prevalent when reading or listening to what excellent players are saying. Even Ben Hogan described things that he didn't actually do. Most really good players know the feel they're trying to achieve, but very few of the know the real mechanics. Really skilled instructors understand the mechanics, but only provide their students with the information the student needs. Sometimes that's a feel all by itself, or a combination of feel with knowledge of mechanics, or drills, or something else. It depends on the student. But nobody should imagine that Phil's "feel" of hinge and hold should work for every golfer.
  • crapulacrapula Golf! Members Posts: 1,776 ✭✭
    The method should have been called hinge, release, and hold. His video was insanely misleading.
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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,147 ✭✭
    Z1ggy16 wrote:


    Absolutely love Phil but H&H is a disaster for me, especially off wet turf because my leading edge is likely to lay a 8 inch long pile of sod over my ball.



    Use the bounce method all day long. Super forgiving.... Maybe it's not as "****" as a low checker, but it works way better for us mere mortals.




    The best part is you can still hit a pretty low checker with it. Just lean towards the target. Maybe not a one hop and stop but still plenty of action on it
  • MPStratMPStrat Members Posts: 942 ClubWRX
    I think he might have realized that hinge and hold is terrible terminology and is rebranding his motion "back foot restore" lol
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,653 ✭✭
    I like the way Phil talks about short game shots, perhaps it's just a bit of lefty love for not having to do the mental gymnastics of reversing his suggestions.



    Rear foot restore works for me. Of course you have to have a hair of shaft lean if you want to get the ball first, but he's basically saying stand it up as much as possible while still nipping the ball first. Results in a mid-flight runner, as the back ball position offsets the lack of shaft lean. Good shot. Interesting old lefty plays 80% of his shots from off the green with the same approach. Less creative than you would think for a guy who seems to have every shot in his bag.
  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,170 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 12:55pm #14
    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day. if it works for you, cool. but ive seen more balls rocket across the green with that image that any other. I think the best starting point for most people is Pete FVCKING Cowen and get that shaft in line with the arms and start with a simple putting stroke using PW,9 iron with the weight on the lead leg. thats the safest, most reliable, simplest way to start chipping for most people.


    Have you been to a lesson with Monte? Because... the bolded doesn't happen... and if it does, it's a much better result than digging your leading edge in half way to China trying to be steep.



    He taught us to be very smooth and fluid, such that if you do get a little thin, your ball just goes a little too far, not into the next zip code.
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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,170 ✭✭
    Krt22 wrote:

    Z1ggy16 wrote:


    Absolutely love Phil but H&H is a disaster for me, especially off wet turf because my leading edge is likely to lay a 8 inch long pile of sod over my ball.



    Use the bounce method all day long. Super forgiving.... Maybe it's not as "****" as a low checker, but it works way better for us mere mortals.




    The best part is you can still hit a pretty low checker with it. Just lean towards the target. Maybe not a one hop and stop but still plenty of action on it


    Yeah I've learned how to change my spin quite a lot over the winter using trackman. Indoors, I was hitting 40 yard pitches with my 58* - I could go as low as like 5k spin and let it release 8-10 yards or as high as 7500 or so and get it to stop within 2-3. I didn't mean with handle leaning, face orientation or anything, just my pressure a bit more forward and maaaaybe hint more wrist hinge... but I felt like I was making the same fluid swing.
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  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,147 ✭✭
    Z1ggy16 wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day. if it works for you, cool. but ive seen more balls rocket across the green with that image that any other. I think the best starting point for most people is Pete FVCKING Cowen and get that shaft in line with the arms and start with a simple putting stroke using PW,9 iron with the weight on the lead leg. thats the safest, most reliable, simplest way to start chipping for most people.


    Have you been to a lesson with Monte? Because... the bolded doesn't happen... and if it does, it's a much better result than digging your leading edge in half way to China trying to be steep.



    He taught us to be very smooth and fluid, such that if you do get a little thin, your ball just goes a little too far, not into the next zip code.




    The funny thing is, keeping the shaft vertical engages the bounce
  • dwbostondwboston Lefty Boomers Posts: 2,318 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 2:09pm #17
    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day.




    I disagree with this 100%. I don't think bladed chips are from being too shallow, they're from a bad setup, or something else you're doing in the motion of the swing that doesn't let you control your low point consistently. "Too shallow" isn't the issue.
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  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Posts: 1,397 ✭✭
    Definitely not cause by coming in too shallow. It can be a few other things. Was playing with a guy yesterday and watched him do the back and forth over the green with a few bladed chips,. It sure looked like to me he just stalled big time at impact. It's like his backswing is too long, too fast, or both...he senses on the downswing the ball is going to go too far so BRAKES! No follow through, no release, just clubhead smacking the back of the ball. Watch your knees! Painful to watch.



  • GolfjackGolfjack All about the rotation Posts: 944 ✭✭
    He hit all three of his shots right at the flag without even really concentrating. Us mere mortals would struggle to do that either method.



    But yeah no hinge hold. Must release and how you do it is personal as everyone is different as long as you can get it done. if you can't, try something new.



    For me I can get good contact now after some technique changes, it's just more time to play and practice to get the feel. The worst miss for me is if I try to hit a higher lofted shot and the ball contacts too high of the face. Then it's short and miserable.
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  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 125 ✭✭
    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day.




    I disagree with this 100%. I don't think bladed chips are from being too shallow, they're from a bad setup, or something else you're doing in the motion of the swing that doesn't let you control your low point consistently. "Too shallow" isn't the issue.




    sure it can. ever played in texas on baked out courses? you have to have a downward angle of attack on chips. and weight on lead leg is to create steepness and get the low point forward. i dont care what the bounce is on your wedge. try using your bounce on concrete and hitting a soft little pitch. thats what it can be like in texas and oklahoma in summertime. i understand the use the bounce imagery and i understand what monte/iteach teaches. watched both their short game videos extensively. its a good method. their method is a derivative of tom pernice/siekmann which is the amazing for creating a soft landing and toss trajectory. i like it a lot for pitching. i think their are simpler ways to teach chipping, personally. i think a simple putting stroke, driver by the chest and shoulers, with weight 100% on the lead leg is the easiest way to accurately chip the ball in all conditions.
  • dwbostondwboston Lefty Boomers Posts: 2,318 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 10:34am #21
    elthrill wrote:

    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day.




    I disagree with this 100%. I don't think bladed chips are from being too shallow, they're from a bad setup, or something else you're doing in the motion of the swing that doesn't let you control your low point consistently. "Too shallow" isn't the issue.




    sure it can. ever played in texas on baked out courses? you have to have a downward angle of attack on chips. and weight on lead leg is to create steepness and get the low point forward. i dont care what the bounce is on your wedge. try using your bounce on concrete and hitting a soft little pitch. thats what it can be like in texas and oklahoma in summertime. i understand the use the bounce imagery and i understand what monte/iteach teaches. watched both their short game videos extensively. its a good method. their method is a derivative of tom pernice/siekmann which is the amazing for creating a soft landing and toss trajectory. i like it a lot for pitching. i think their are simpler ways to teach chipping, personally. i think a simple putting stroke, driver by the chest and shoulers, with weight 100% on the lead leg is the easiest way to accurately chip the ball in all conditions.




    I'm not trying to argue with you, but you're flat out wrong. I've seen Monte hit chips in person off a cart path with a wedge with some bounce on it. Dan Carraher does the same thing to demonstrate his method. You don't blade it from being too shallow, you blade it by stalling the trail arm and having the leading edge of the club come up into the ball. Mickelson even says that in the H&H videos.



    Use whatever method works for you, but stop making blanket statements about what causes certain faults/flaws when it's been demonstrated to be false by multiple respected instructors and players.
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  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 125 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 11:11am #22
    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:

    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day.




    I disagree with this 100%. I don't think bladed chips are from being too shallow, they're from a bad setup, or something else you're doing in the motion of the swing that doesn't let you control your low point consistently. "Too shallow" isn't the issue.




    sure it can. ever played in texas on baked out courses? you have to have a downward angle of attack on chips. and weight on lead leg is to create steepness and get the low point forward. i dont care what the bounce is on your wedge. try using your bounce on concrete and hitting a soft little pitch. thats what it can be like in texas and oklahoma in summertime. i understand the use the bounce imagery and i understand what monte/iteach teaches. watched both their short game videos extensively. its a good method. their method is a derivative of tom pernice/siekmann which is the amazing for creating a soft landing and toss trajectory. i like it a lot for pitching. i think their are simpler ways to teach chipping, personally. i think a simple putting stroke, driver by the chest and shoulers, with weight 100% on the lead leg is the easiest way to accurately chip the ball in all conditions.




    I'm not trying to argue with you, but you're flat out wrong. I've seen Monte hit chips in person off a cart path with a wedge with some bounce on it. Dan Carraher does the same thing to demonstrate his method. You don't blade it from being too shallow, you blade it by stalling the trail arm and having the leading edge of the club come up into the ball. Mickelson even says that in the H&H videos.



    Use whatever method works for you, but stop making blanket statements about what causes certain faults/flaws when it's been demonstrated to be false by multiple respected instructors and players.
    absolutely you can. just have to hit it right. most hacks arent monte or dan. you realize those guys are studs, right?



    if you stall you are more screwed using the monte method than the cowan/phil rodgers method. a bad putt is better than a bad pitch. thats the theory behind cowan. this is the easiest way for most golfers to get the ball close to the hole on regular greens. https://www.golfchan...bs-around-green



    not saying its a "better" method. not my place to judge. but yes, its "easier/simpler" for most people i have helped with chipping/short pitching
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • crapulacrapula Golf! Members Posts: 1,776 ✭✭
    elthrill wrote:

    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day.




    I disagree with this 100%. I don't think bladed chips are from being too shallow, they're from a bad setup, or something else you're doing in the motion of the swing that doesn't let you control your low point consistently. "Too shallow" isn't the issue.




    sure it can. ever played in texas on baked out courses? you have to have a downward angle of attack on chips. and weight on lead leg is to create steepness and get the low point forward. i dont care what the bounce is on your wedge. try using your bounce on concrete and hitting a soft little pitch. thats what it can be like in texas and oklahoma in summertime. i understand the use the bounce imagery and i understand what monte/iteach teaches. watched both their short game videos extensively. its a good method. their method is a derivative of tom pernice/siekmann which is the amazing for creating a soft landing and toss trajectory. i like it a lot for pitching. i think their are simpler ways to teach chipping, personally. i think a simple putting stroke, driver by the chest and shoulers, with weight 100% on the lead leg is the easiest way to accurately chip the ball in all conditions.




    100% on the left leg? Inconceivable!
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  • woods991woods991 believelandClubWRX Posts: 2,312 ✭✭
    Finally..
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  • cwglumcwglum Members Posts: 1,554 ✭✭
    If phil has a straight forward pitch with green to work with, the club will not release past his lead arm (hinge and hold). If he has to cut the legs from underneath or play the short range mini flop, the club head will pass the lead arm.
  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,553 ✭✭
    Phil is one of the most talented short game players in the history of the game. He can do well with any technique he uses. I don't know any other player game enough to hit a full swing lob shot over the head of a volunteer standing 3 feet away. I wonder what are the odds he would mess up the shot and take the guy out? 100 to 1?



  • dwbostondwboston Lefty Boomers Posts: 2,318 ✭✭
    elthrill wrote:

    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:

    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day.




    I disagree with this 100%. I don't think bladed chips are from being too shallow, they're from a bad setup, or something else you're doing in the motion of the swing that doesn't let you control your low point consistently. "Too shallow" isn't the issue.




    sure it can. ever played in texas on baked out courses? you have to have a downward angle of attack on chips. and weight on lead leg is to create steepness and get the low point forward. i dont care what the bounce is on your wedge. try using your bounce on concrete and hitting a soft little pitch. thats what it can be like in texas and oklahoma in summertime. i understand the use the bounce imagery and i understand what monte/iteach teaches. watched both their short game videos extensively. its a good method. their method is a derivative of tom pernice/siekmann which is the amazing for creating a soft landing and toss trajectory. i like it a lot for pitching. i think their are simpler ways to teach chipping, personally. i think a simple putting stroke, driver by the chest and shoulers, with weight 100% on the lead leg is the easiest way to accurately chip the ball in all conditions.




    I'm not trying to argue with you, but you're flat out wrong. I've seen Monte hit chips in person off a cart path with a wedge with some bounce on it. Dan Carraher does the same thing to demonstrate his method. You don't blade it from being too shallow, you blade it by stalling the trail arm and having the leading edge of the club come up into the ball. Mickelson even says that in the H&H videos.



    Use whatever method works for you, but stop making blanket statements about what causes certain faults/flaws when it's been demonstrated to be false by multiple respected instructors and players.
    absolutely you can. just have to hit it right. most hacks arent monte or dan. you realize those guys are studs, right?



    if you stall you are more screwed using the monte method than the cowan/phil rodgers method. a bad putt is better than a bad pitch. thats the theory behind cowan. this is the easiest way for most golfers to get the ball close to the hole on regular greens. https://www.golfchan...bs-around-green



    not saying its a "better" method. not my place to judge. but yes, its "easier/simpler" for most people i have helped with chipping/short pitching




    Having been to several Monte clinics, I'm aware most people (myself included) are hacks compared to him. The whole point to Monte's method is that it's easier, with bigger margin for error. Hit it a little fat, still get an acceptable result. Catch it a little thin, get slightly more spin and less roll-out.



    You like Cowen - that's great, whatever works for you. Stop throwing out absolutes about using the bounce, being too shallow, and bladed shots, especially when following it up with tripe like "100% on the left leg". It comes off as foolish.
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  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 125 ✭✭
    most people that are bad chippers, whats their #1 issue? CONTACT! they hit it fat or thin. all day. they cant make clean contact. whats the most effective way to clean up contact as a starting point? Get them to hit chips off 1 leg/lead leg. try it. so yes, in that sense it is 100% on lead leg. Gradually, you move to a more balanced set up, but weight is always overwhelmingly on the lead leg for chips. if you are doing it the easy/smart way. pitching is a different animal. but many great HOF wedge players play with weight way forward and keep it there for all wedge shots. it keeps your swing bottom more stable and consistent
  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,147 ✭✭
    elthrill wrote:

    dwboston wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    personally i think the whole "use the bounce" image is just as bad. that gets people too shallow and will lead to bladed chips all day.




    I disagree with this 100%. I don't think bladed chips are from being too shallow, they're from a bad setup, or something else you're doing in the motion of the swing that doesn't let you control your low point consistently. "Too shallow" isn't the issue.




    sure it can. ever played in texas on baked out courses? you have to have a downward angle of attack on chips. and weight on lead leg is to create steepness and get the low point forward. i dont care what the bounce is on your wedge. try using your bounce on concrete and hitting a soft little pitch. thats what it can be like in texas and oklahoma in summertime. i understand the use the bounce imagery and i understand what monte/iteach teaches. watched both their short game videos extensively. its a good method. their method is a derivative of tom pernice/siekmann which is the amazing for creating a soft landing and toss trajectory. i like it a lot for pitching. i think their are simpler ways to teach chipping, personally. i think a simple putting stroke, driver by the chest and shoulers, with weight 100% on the lead leg is the easiest way to accurately chip the ball in all conditions.




    You must have missed iteach video where he chips off concrete.



    And a good putting stroke results in a slightly upwards angle of attack...
  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 125 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 1:53pm #30
    yes, because you dont putt with your weight on the lead leg....



    and watching iteach chip off concrete doesnt help the 25 handicapper with zero athletic ability or the old lady who picks up the game at 55. iteach and monte are studs at what they do. as good of teachers as anyone Ive followed. but they are working mostly with younger players and/or players who strive to be excellent players. players that will practice consistently and generally have some skill before they go to see them.



    there is a reason those square strike wedges sell like hot cakes. its an easier way to get the ball on the green for many many players. go out to a municipal golf course in any town in america and watch the players on a tuesday morning. the vast majority of the player absolutely suck. i mean could not break 125 with 2 pencils. its easy to get a false sense of what the average golfer really is like when you hang out on WRX.
  • Krt22Krt22 Members Posts: 6,147 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 2:03pm #31
    Those same folks also aren't doing the hinge and hold. Two very different subsets of golfers. The golfers that putt stroke everything are generally just bad with no desire to get better. Same guys will take 3-4 strokes to get out of a shallow bunker.



    Using the bounce is not a difficult skill to learn and doesn't take a ton of practice to get proficient



    I personally have never seen a square strike wedge on the course so can't really comment on it's effectiveness (or lack there of)
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