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How do YOU swing hard without tension?

BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
YOU are in your stance about to take your shot. What drill or warm up keeps you swinging hard?



I’m talking PGA tour type of swinging hard.



What can we do to improve our Swinging Hard and really getting thru the ball!



I’m thinking a smash bag may help. But I don’t know the answer .

Comments

  • hobbes928hobbes928 Members Posts: 75 ✭✭
    Swing faster, not harder.
  • davep043davep043 Advanced Members Posts: 2,958 ✭✭
    Get stronger. I've read studies that show that players at the tour pro actually use a significantly higher grip pressure than most amateurs. OK,.this is just me guessing, but I'd bet that most of those players are actually substantially stronger in the hands and forearms than us mortals. They grip with a smaller percentage of their strength, so they can maintain "looseness" in their forearms. We're using closer to 100% of our available pressure, which tends to tighten up adjacent muscles. So to feel more relaxed, strengthen your grip, and use a smaller percentage of your available strength.

    That really doesn't help you this weekend, does it?
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Advanced Members Posts: 1,149 ✭✭
    edited March 14
    This topic comes up a lot and it gets really confused. This idea of swinging 'relaxed' vs. swinging 'hard'. I really like the specific phrasing of this topic.



    I agree with swinging 'fast', but what that really means is contracting some muscles with maximum force while simultaneously relaxing others... It's not 'hard' or 'relaxed' - it's both at the same time.



    Sprinting is the perfect example, because it's simpler to understand. One quad is firing hard while the hamstring is relaxing, then the hamstring is firing as hard as the possible while the quad is relaxing... It's that precise coordination and control of muscle movements that creates speed.



    Firing and shutting of muscles with rhythm and coordination means that muscles aren't essentially contradicting each other. The converse of that is called co-contraction, where opposing muscle groups fire at the same time. That can be great if you're only trying to create stability (e.g. when someone's trying to push you over) but inefficient when you're trying to do something like swing a club fast.



    This partially explains why somebody who's relatively strong can't necessarily swing as fast as somebody who's weaker. There's a neuromuscular efficiency aspect. Strength alone doesn't cut it.



    I practice it with an SSR by trying to swing as fast as possible and then progressively trying to reduce tension, yet still swing fast and still maintain control of the club. Trying to let the brain work out what it need to fire - and what it can let relax - at the same time. I'm an over-tense type A, so it has been a long process to make significant improvements, but it's happening.
  • wkuo3wkuo3 RELEASE Advanced Members Posts: 3,785 ✭✭
    Remember the power comes from the ground up.
  • jmkenn0jmkenn0 Advanced Members Posts: 663 ✭✭
    For me its sequencing more then anything. As stated above, starting from the ground then core then shoulder arms. Tension creeps in for me when the arms start coming down first but I can immediately tell it happens because it forces my weight back on my back foot. Getting balanced allows me to turn as hard as I want.



  • dlygrissedlygrisse Advanced Members Posts: 12,942 ✭✭
    hobbes928 wrote:


    Swing faster, not harder.




    And how exactly do you differentiate between the two? When I check my swing speed on a monitor the smooth relaxed swing is slower than the swing where I feel like I am swinging hard. OTOH i usually make better contact with the smooth swing.



    Swinging hard is swinging fast.

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  • Krt22Krt22 Advanced Members Posts: 6,035 ✭✭
    I just swing harder.
  • extrastiffextrastiff Advanced Members Posts: 855 ✭✭
    dlygrisse wrote:

    hobbes928 wrote:


    Swing faster, not harder.


    And how exactly do you differentiate between the two? When I check my swing speed on a monitor the smooth relaxed swing is slower than the swing where I feel like I am swinging hard. OTOH i usually make better contact with the smooth swing.



    Swinging hard is swinging fast.
    Disagree. what the fellow above says above about sprinting sums up why. Firing one muscle harder can help, but simultaneously relax another is called for as well.



    "Swing harder" is too vague in my opinion
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  • b.mattayb.mattay New WRX'er Advanced Members Posts: 455 ✭✭
    Same as any other sport...put in more effort.
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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Advanced Members Posts: 19,799 ✭✭
    I fire my glutes.
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  • Krt22Krt22 Advanced Members Posts: 6,035 ✭✭
    All tiger jokes aside, when I want to hit it harder, I concentrate on loading more into my right side and feel the glutes engage as I push more into the ground



    That and a more vertical swing..as detailed by our very own Lamb
  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Advanced Members Posts: 5,236 ✭✭
    dlygrisse wrote:

    hobbes928 wrote:


    Swing faster, not harder.




    And how exactly do you differentiate between the two? When I check my swing speed on a monitor the smooth relaxed swing is slower than the swing where I feel like I am swinging hard. OTOH i usually make better contact with the smooth swing.



    Swinging hard is swinging fast.




    Not for some people. Just telling some to swing hard can cause a different swing than telling someone to swing fast. Language, both internal or from a coach, is extremely important. As an experiment have someone hit a heavy bag hard and then fast. Its very similar to what happens with many people when they use those words in golf and its a noticeable difference.



    "Hit the ball" is another example.
  • FireballerFireballer Advanced Members Posts: 366 ✭✭
    Think "speed at the bottom"...
  • eebombeebomb Advanced Members Posts: 531 ✭✭
    Krt22 wrote:


    All tiger jokes aside, when I want to hit it harder, I concentrate on loading more into my right side and feel the glutes engage as I push more into the ground



    That and a more vertical swing..as detailed by our very own Lamb
    still have no idea how to "feel my glutes engage" .
  • Krt22Krt22 Advanced Members Posts: 6,035 ✭✭
    eebomb wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    All tiger jokes aside, when I want to hit it harder, I concentrate on loading more into my right side and feel the glutes engage as I push more into the ground



    That and a more vertical swing..as detailed by our very own Lamb
    still have no idea how to "feel my glutes engage" .




    Swing harder. You will know it when you feel it
  • eebombeebomb Advanced Members Posts: 531 ✭✭
    Krt22 wrote:

    eebomb wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    All tiger jokes aside, when I want to hit it harder, I concentrate on loading more into my right side and feel the glutes engage as I push more into the ground



    That and a more vertical swing..as detailed by our very own Lamb
    still have no idea how to "feel my glutes engage" .




    Swing harder. You will know it when you feel it
    when I swing harder it just feels like it's all arms swinger harder
  • jut111jut111 Advanced Members Posts: 1,578 ✭✭
    eebomb wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    All tiger jokes aside, when I want to hit it harder, I concentrate on loading more into my right side and feel the glutes engage as I push more into the ground



    That and a more vertical swing..as detailed by our very own Lamb
    still have no idea how to "feel my glutes engage" .




    Learn to squat.
  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 4,123 ClubWRX
    learn to twerk it
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  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Advanced Members Posts: 1,149 ✭✭
    Experiment: try contracting both your hamstrings and quads at the same time. Really activate all of your leg muscles. Squeeze them as hard as possible. Maximum effort.



    Now keep them fully contracted - maximum effort - and try to jog to the other end of the room. You’ll be like Robot Bambi on ice...



    Max strength / contraction alone doesn’t cut it. There’s a very elegant firing and unfiring going on when somebody runs, or makes any powerful coordinated move.



    Think about ice skating... how much effort does a newbie put in to try to stay upright on the ice vs. an experienced skater that’s running rings around them. Over time the experienced skater makes more and more efficient use of their muscles and learns to only fire the ones they really need. The newbie is firing everything they can just to try to stay vertical. Opposing muscles are firing at the same time and fighting each other. As the newbie gets more coordinated over time they feel more relaxed and less beat up, because their muscles fire more efficiently, and less in conflict.



    Golf is especially difficult because there’s so much coordination involved.
  • dlygrissedlygrisse Advanced Members Posts: 12,942 ✭✭
    eebomb wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    All tiger jokes aside, when I want to hit it harder, I concentrate on loading more into my right side and feel the glutes engage as I push more into the ground



    That and a more vertical swing..as detailed by our very own Lamb
    still have no idea how to "feel my glutes engage" .




    Squeeze a dime between butt cheeks.

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  • BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
    edited March 14
    You know all jokes aside but I follow this danish coach on twitter and he has a really good female college student at Texas tech. And not that I’m looking or anything but her right glute really squeezes (I guess that’s the best word?) on her follow thru. Her swing is sick!



    Something to that glute squeezing. Maybe it is involuntary?



    I guess squats and deadlift help with that , maybe stability and power in the swing.



    [URL]




    And just FYI that danish program is awesome. We’re going to be hearing from a lot coming thru the tour soon enough.



    [URL] https://www.instagram.com/andreaskaligolf/p/Bt0qK0AhEhN/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=10kawlnagu8xl[/URL]



    Same thing on a dude
  • GolfjackGolfjack All about the rotation Advanced Members Posts: 907 ✭✭
    I tend to feel that swinging hard is when I'm not in sync. Swinging without tension is when I am in sync. Everything is firing to make things go faster. It's like a car engine for example. If the pistons aren't firing in sync, the engine will misfire. They're firing just as hard, but good engines run smooth. Good things rarely happen when I'm not in sync. Just don't over do it and swing easy. Fast is not easy.



    And this sound patronizing but really the better your swing is the better suited it is to swing harder without tension with good results. Swinging fast with a bad swing takes a lot of practice to make it consistent.
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  • RobertBaronRobertBaron Advanced Members Posts: 721 ✭✭
    I don’t really think about “hard” anymore especially with driver. That just made my swing tighter and shorter.



    Now my focus is making sure i complete my turn plus maybe a smidge more turn for that extra few yards, use my legs more/ squat during downswing and feel I’m coming way in to out with full extension at impact (I can get out to in pretty easily especially when I try to swing harder and even more so under pressure which causes for me at least, pull hooks, snap hooks or major slices)
  • juststevejuststeve Advanced Members Posts: 4,661 ✭✭
    To hit the ball hard without tension you need to focus on the speed producers, the arms swinging freely from the shoulder sockets, and the club swinging freely from the hands. Combing those two swings and you can hit the ball far enough to play any golf course. Importantly it takes relatively little muscular force to accelerate the arms hands and club, because they are low mass, compared to the force necessary to accelerate the much higher mass of the body. Less muscular force usually means less tension.



    Steve
  • eebombeebomb Advanced Members Posts: 531 ✭✭
    dlygrisse wrote:

    eebomb wrote:

    Krt22 wrote:


    All tiger jokes aside, when I want to hit it harder, I concentrate on loading more into my right side and feel the glutes engage as I push more into the ground



    That and a more vertical swing..as detailed by our very own Lamb
    still have no idea how to "feel my glutes engage" .




    Squeeze a dime between butt cheeks.
    so seriously on the downswing this is my swing thought?
  • uitar9uitar9 Advanced Members Posts: 364 ✭✭
    Fireballer wrote:
    Think "speed at the bottom"...




    That makes a picture I can understand. My wife and I took a couple of winters of lessons and our guy had us using one of those swing fans (yeah, everybody hates them yada yada yada) because he wanted us to feel that swoosh at the bottom of the swing. He suggested thats where the power was. He also had us hitting into a swing heavy bag. Just to get the feel of hitting that bag hard at the bottom.



    For us, he suggested starting that downswing with the hips, no other swing thoughts. He said the harder you fire those hips, the further the ball will go. I think it keeps me from casting, Everything; hands , arms, shoulders, club is forced to move involuntarily. I find if I keep stretching the hips, I hit the ball further



    Like Porschefan said: Once you learn to skate, you don't think about it, you just do it.



    Harder, faster: Tough to define to someone
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  • MillbrookMillbrook Advanced Members Posts: 1,689 ✭✭
    PorscheFan wrote:


    This topic comes up a lot and it gets really confused. This idea of swinging 'relaxed' vs. swinging 'hard'. I really like the specific phrasing of this topic.



    I agree with swinging 'fast', but what that really means is contracting some muscles with maximum force while simultaneously relaxing others... It's not 'hard' or 'relaxed' - it's both at the same time.



    Sprinting is the perfect example, because it's simpler to understand. One quad is firing hard while the hamstring is relaxing, then the hamstring is firing as hard as the possible while the quad is relaxing... It's that precise coordination and control of muscle movements that creates speed.



    Firing and shutting of muscles with rhythm and coordination means that muscles aren't essentially contradicting each other. The converse of that is called co-contraction, where opposing muscle groups fire at the same time. That can be great if you're only trying to create stability (e.g. when someone's trying to push you over) but inefficient when you're trying to do something like swing a club fast.



    This partially explains why somebody who's relatively strong can't necessarily swing as fast as somebody who's weaker. There's a neuromuscular efficiency aspect. Strength alone doesn't cut it.



    I practice it with an SSR by trying to swing as fast as possible and then progressively trying to reduce tension, yet still swing fast and still maintain control of the club. Trying to let the brain work out what it need to fire - and what it can let relax - at the same time. I'm an over-tense type A, so it has been a long process to make significant improvements, but it's happening.




    I'm pretty sure this was the finding in the book;



    Maximum Performance



    by



    Laurence E. Morehouse,




    Leonard Gross
    All comments are made from the point of
    view of my learning and not a claim
    to expertise.
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Advanced Members Posts: 1,149 ✭✭
    Millbrook wrote:

    PorscheFan wrote:


    This topic comes up a lot and it gets really confused. This idea of swinging 'relaxed' vs. swinging 'hard'. I really like the specific phrasing of this topic.



    I agree with swinging 'fast', but what that really means is contracting some muscles with maximum force while simultaneously relaxing others... It's not 'hard' or 'relaxed' - it's both at the same time.



    Sprinting is the perfect example, because it's simpler to understand. One quad is firing hard while the hamstring is relaxing, then the hamstring is firing as hard as the possible while the quad is relaxing... It's that precise coordination and control of muscle movements that creates speed.



    Firing and shutting of muscles with rhythm and coordination means that muscles aren't essentially contradicting each other. The converse of that is called co-contraction, where opposing muscle groups fire at the same time. That can be great if you're only trying to create stability (e.g. when someone's trying to push you over) but inefficient when you're trying to do something like swing a club fast.



    This partially explains why somebody who's relatively strong can't necessarily swing as fast as somebody who's weaker. There's a neuromuscular efficiency aspect. Strength alone doesn't cut it.



    I practice it with an SSR by trying to swing as fast as possible and then progressively trying to reduce tension, yet still swing fast and still maintain control of the club. Trying to let the brain work out what it need to fire - and what it can let relax - at the same time. I'm an over-tense type A, so it has been a long process to make significant improvements, but it's happening.




    I'm pretty sure this was the finding in the book;



    Maximum Performance



    by



    [url="https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/668978.Laurence_E_Morehouse"]Laurence E. Morehouse[/url],




    [url="https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/230102.Leonard_Gross"]Leonard Gross[/url]





    Wow. Just looked up the Amazon reviews. Seems like this book was ahead of its time...
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Advanced Members Posts: 1,149 ✭✭
    I like this article, especially the analogy that co-contraction in a speed movement can be like driving with the brakes on... expending a ton of energy, yet fighting yourself, reducing performance, and possibly inviting injury:



    https://www.spartasc...t-than-strength
  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Advanced Members Posts: 11,370 ✭✭
    All i know is that as I get older and less flexible this becomes harder to do



    it's hard to sequence properly if you don't have rotational ability
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  • ScottboxScottbox scottbox Members Posts: 30 ✭✭
    I really like these two variations on the above concept of "putting on the brakes":







  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Advanced Members Posts: 1,149 ✭✭
    Scottbox wrote:


    I really like these two variations on the above concept of "putting on the brakes":












    Yep, there are a bunch of takes out there on parametric acceleration (shoulder up) and decelerating the body into impact (kinematic sequence). Here they’re specifically using a ‘brakes’ analogy to explain energy transfer between body segments and into the club.



    Chris Brook has some good videos on deceleration in terms of the mechanics presented, but they’re not as easy to watch. Peter knight made a more watchable one, focusing on hands-to-clubhead, as do Chris Ryan and Robyn Symes.



    Where I think Chris Brook differs - and I think it’s important - is that this isn’t just about hands-to-clubhead, but rather happens in a sequence across body segments too... And in those cases the deceleration is actually caused by an acceleration in the next segment.



  • Cool Hand LukeCool Hand Luke Advanced Members Posts: 446
    Club has to be on plane more than anything—then you’re not fighting the forces, ie less tension. When I’m on plane and have a good tempo I feel like I can go at it as hard as I want. Also, being aligned and decisive with the shot I want to hit helps.
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  • jbw749jbw749 Advanced Members Posts: 1,126
    Eliminate expectations and swing harder.
  • GautamaGautama Advanced Members Posts: 746 ✭✭
    I just make sure I exploit the forces of gravity to the fullest - it swings the club as fast as needed.  :wink:

    (i'm obviously kidding for anyone just joining this program)
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  • ChrisO72ChrisO72 Members Posts: 46 ✭✭
    Remember you are trying to make the club head go faster not the handle.
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  • Nard_SNard_S Advanced Members Posts: 3,013 ✭✭
    Shoulder velocity.
  • Chowdah86Chowdah86 Advanced Members Posts: 328 ✭✭
    Use my legs and the ground to make as loud a swish through the ball as possible.   
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